IRCON INTERNATIONAL LIMITED (IRCON) Q4 FY23 Earnings Concall Transcript

IRCON INTERNATIONAL LIMITED  (NSE : IRCON) Q4 FY23 Earnings Concall dated May. 25, 2023

Corporate Participants:

Ragini Advani — Director, Finance

Analysts:

Mamta Samat — Perfect Relations Private Limited — Analyst

Manish Ostwal — Nirmal Bang Securities Private Limited — Analyst

Abhishek Maheshwari — Sky Ridge Wealth Management — Analyst

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

Vishal Periwal — IDBI Capital — Analyst

Shreyans Mehta — Equirus Securities. — Analyst

Karan Mehta — Nirzar Securities — Analyst

Dipen Shah — Individual Investor — Analyst

Jinesh Kothari — HDFC Securities — Analyst

Shubham Shukla — Voyager Capital — Analyst

Hiten Boricha — Sequent Investments — Analyst

CA Akash Dhanuka — Individual Investor — Analyst

Manoj Sah — Laxgov Investments. — Analyst

Prasad Donde — Arcade Investments — Analyst

Sajal Agarwal — Individual Investor — Analyst

Presentation:

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Ircon International Limited Q4 FY ’23 Analyst Conference Call hosted by Perfect Relations Private Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode. There will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded.

I now hand the conference over to Ms. Mamta Samat from Perfect Relations Private Limited. Thank you and over to you, ma’am.

Mamta Samat — Perfect Relations Private Limited — Analyst

Thank you, Dovin, Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining us on Ircon International Limited Q4 FY ’23 Analyst Conference Call. Today we have with us the senior management represented by Smt. Ragini Advani, Director Finance; Sri. B. Mugunthan, Chief Financial Officer and Executive Director, Finance; Sri. Alin Roy Choudhury, CGM, Finance.

Before we begin, I would like to say that some of the statements that will be made in today’s discussion may be forward-looking in nature. We will begin the call with opening remarks from the management, after which we will have the forum open for the interactive Q&A session.

I would now request Smt. Ragini Advani for the opening remarks. Thank you and over to you ma’am.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Thank you. Thank you, Mamta. Good afternoon, everyone. I am Ragini Advani, Director Finance, Ircon International. On behalf of my team, I extend a warm welcome to you all, and thank you for your presence today at the Ircon’s earning call for the quarter and year ended 31st March, 2023. I have with me my CFO and ED Finance, Sri. Mugunthan and CGM, Finance Sri. Alin Roy Choudhury. I would like to express our gratitude to all our stakeholders for their continued support and trust in the organization.

Our focus remains on a firm foundation for sustainable growth and maintaining a robust balance between long-term value-creation and short-term profitability. We are committed to leveraging our expertise, resources and partnership to drive and enhance our operational efficiency as well as have better outcomes for our investors. Our projects are progressing well. We had a very good financial year ’22, ’23, and we do hope to continue the momentum for ’23, ’24.

As you are all aware, we have crossed the milestone mark of INR10,000 crores in terms of our earnings. The company maintains a healthy order book of INR35,000 crores as on 31st March 2023. Many of these orders are on competitive bidding basis. We continue to focus on railways as well as highways, and execution will continue to be our focus for FY ’23, ’24.

In terms of our financial performance of Q4 FY’23, the company has reported a total INR10,750 crore in FY ’23 free, it’s 42% up from FY ’22. PAT has increased to INR765 crores as against INR592 crores in FY’22, almost an increase of close to 30%. Core EBITDA increased by 15% to INR735 crores vis-a-vis INR640 crore in the previous year.

Our earnings per share have gone up to INR8.14 per equity share in FY’23 as against INR6.30 per equity share in the last fiscal year, and this is considering a face value of our share at INR2 per share.

In the last few years, FY’18 to FY ’23, we have had a CAGR of almost 20% in our revenue and a CAGR of almost 13% in opex. VOD has also recommended final dividend of INR1.20 per equity share on a face value of INR2 per share, thereby giving an overall dividend of INR3 per share, and this will be of course subject to shareholder approval in the AGM.

Currently, Ircon has 11 subsidiaries, including 10 wholly-owned subsidiaries, and this also includes nine roads and highways, SPVs. Apart from that, we have seven joint ventures, out of which five are relating to coal projects.

Without taking much more time, now I open the floor for Q&A session.

Questions and Answers:

Operator

Thank you very much. We will now begin the question-and-answer session. [Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Manish Ostwal Nirmal Bang Securities Private Limited. Please go ahead.

Manish Ostwal — Nirmal Bang Securities Private Limited — Analyst

Yes, madam, thank you for the opportunity. And my question first on the order book position, so Madam, this has declined on Y-o-Y basis almost 19%. So, one, what is the outlook for FY ’24 in terms of order inflow? and secondly, how is the pipeline of the orders book so that we can get some visibility about the increase in order book in coming quarters.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

So, net, our order book was at a peak about a year back, almost close to about INR43,000 crores, INR44,000 crores. As I’ve been maintaining in all our calls, we have had execution as our main area of focus in FY ’22, ’23. And therefore, it has gone down by almost INR10,000 crores to coming to the range of about INR35,000 crores. We are going to go focused now in terms of getting more orders from the market, because we do like to — we would ideally like to get it back to levels of about INR45,000 crores INR50,000 crores going forward. And the efforts have started, but as I’ve been saying that up to March ’24 our bulk of and management effort would continue on execution. And we would continue now onwards to look at certain projects where we see we have a niche, or where we see the margins would be protected going forward. There is a lot of opportunity that is sitting in the market, that is not a problem. The issue is one that we have execute it well, and two, we have to maintain our margins. So, rest assured, we should be taking that target forward.

Manish Ostwal — Nirmal Bang Securities Private Limited — Analyst

Secondly, on the operating margin side, we have seen the decline of operating margins, especially in quarter four, and even full-year basis there is a decline of operating margin. So, in your opinion, what is the sustainable margins in our business where below that we don’t want to work. So how one should think of operating core EBITDA margin for the business to sustain.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

See, our core EBITDA margins, in fact, again, as we’ve been saying, our EBITDA margins, where we like to sustain and we think we’ll be able to maintain is 10% to 11%. A percent here and there can always happen. And right now also the overall decline in our margins on consolidated level is about 0.7% to 0.8%. So, which is within that 1% range. Now, that happens because of many factors. There are times when certain jobs are about to be ending or there are certain job where certain provisions needs to be created, because these are jobs spread over three to four years, but we will continue maintaining the margin of EBITDA in the range of 10% to 11%.

Manish Ostwal — Nirmal Bang Securities Private Limited — Analyst

Madam, the core EBITDA margin had declined by 158 basis-point on…

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Actually, bank gives a wrong figure. The first, in our annuity model, in all our HAM projects, part of our income comes in other income. But that is pretty much an operational aspect at hand, so if we were to take that out, then our decline is about 0.7% to 0.8%.

Manish Ostwal — Nirmal Bang Securities Private Limited — Analyst

Understood. And revenue growth guidance for the next year, we have achieved our guidance of.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

I mean, we were expecting to close this time close to INR9,500 crores. We surpassed that and we’ve got obviously more than INR10,000 crores. As the base have grown bigger, I mean, we will probably have a jump of about 5% to 7% on this number.

Operator

Thank you very much, madam. Thank you. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Abhishek Maheshwari from Sky Ridge Wealth Management. Please go ahead.

Abhishek Maheshwari — Sky Ridge Wealth Management — Analyst

Yes, hi, thank you for the opportunity. Am I audible?

Operator

Yes.

Abhishek Maheshwari — Sky Ridge Wealth Management — Analyst

Thank you and congratulations on crossing INR10,000 crores mark. Madam, a follow-up on previous participant’s question. As you said, you are focused more towards execution, last year you were, and even this year, you will be. But this whole bidding strategy, we are not able to understand because the players are gaining a lot of market-share. And look, other players like [Indecipherable] and lot of companies are gaining a lot of huge ticket orders. Are you whether you are losing market-share to other companies, and what is a strategy because the INR2.4 lakh crores railway project was announced and how much are you planning to bid this year?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Yeah, so I have understood your question. There are two, three aspects to it. First, it is not a limited market, it is not a market of INR100 there already people have taken orders of INR50, so I should be worried. It is a huge market sitting there and there are enough opportunities for all of us. Second, as I’ve always maintained, we would like to maintain our margins in bids. It is very easy to get orders and say that we’ve got many orders. But ultimately on a long-term basis, it has to be at sustainable margins. The third thing is that I also mentioned that while execution was our focus in the FY ’22, ’23, in this year, apart from execution, we will be going whole hog on order book front also, around the business development side also. We have already started initiating lot of business proposals, and we do hope to come back to the order book levels as we had previously. So, we have a clear strategy in mind, it is just that we are not in a hurry to pick up jobs which have been picked up at losses.

Abhishek Maheshwari — Sky Ridge Wealth Management — Analyst

Got it, ma’am. And then if you could give any guidance as to how much value of projects are you planning to bid this entire year or if that’s confidential.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

It is difficult to say that because we are, as I said, we are going whole hog. In the last two month only, we have picked up. I mean, we are bidding for jobs which are exceeding many crores. But then, the point is you know ultimately, everything is a competitive market, and it will really depend on the ratio in which we actually get up wins, and then again, we’ll revisit our strategy, and accordingly take it forward. But overall, guiding factor should be that we should be able to come back to our order book levels.

Abhishek Maheshwari — Sky Ridge Wealth Management — Analyst

Madam, majority of it is railways only or some HAM also and EPC also?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

It would be railways and highways.

Abhishek Maheshwari — Sky Ridge Wealth Management — Analyst

Okay. Madam, one last question. So, this year because next year there are elections, the tendering process quickened its pace or are you still waiting to see that kind of activity from government’s end.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Yeah, tendering process has its own guidelines in every Ministry as well as company. So, all that happen. What would be more important as I see it from a government point-of-view is that whatever are the existing orders and the existing capex that they’ve committed is what they would like to finish earlier in the election time.

In terms of the orders going forward, they will take their pace to come, but they will be coming. I mean, probably it will not be able to do extra path forward on that front.

Abhishek Maheshwari — Sky Ridge Wealth Management — Analyst

Okay. So, ideally, three-four months before elections, they stop awarding any projects, right? So they have only nine months of this year to finish and the tendering.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

No, it doesn’t happen that way. They don’t announce any major policy, but a normal tender which is going on a competitive bidding in a sector like railways or highways, they don’t stop.

Abhishek Maheshwari — Sky Ridge Wealth Management — Analyst

Okay, okay. So, irrespective of elections that tendering process will come in railways.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Hope it comes.

Abhishek Maheshwari — Sky Ridge Wealth Management — Analyst

Okay, okay. Thank you, madam. I will get back to the queue, and all the very best.

Operator

Thank you. [Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Dixit Doshi from Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited. Please go ahead.

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. First question is, how much order we have won during the financial year? Current financial year?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Current, as in the first quarter of ’23, ’24? [Speech Overlap]

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

In FY ’23 full-year, how much orders we won.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

In FY ’23, we had won around close to INR500 crores.

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

Full FY’23 only INR500 crores.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Yeah, and as far as these two months are concerned, again I think it is close to about INR360 odd crores.

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

Okay, ma’am, you [Speech Overlap]

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Subject to certain statements of advice.

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

Okay, ma’am, you did mention that we have also bid for the project and we are waiting our final approval. If you can just broadly give a range that how much value of the projects, we have bidded right now and awaiting the result.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

It is a little difficult for me to say, because a lot of these projects, I mean, it would be a sensitive data for me to declare it right now. But on the whole, I think the guidance factor for all of you should be, because ultimately it will also depend if I come L1, and any of these or all of these projects are [Indecipherable]. So given all those probabilities and the fact that it’s a dynamic market, I think the guiding factor for all our investors should be that we will be focusing on our orders now, and we should be getting back to the order book levels. Typically to pinpoint it will be little difficult.

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

Yeah, because the concern was that our execution is quite large, because we almost execute INR10,000 crores, INR11,000 crores a year. So, our order book will deplete very fast. That was the reason.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Absolutely, I mean, we are also as concerned as you all are, and that is the reason that we are picking up our BD strategy again in this year.

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

And can you give just qualitatively, how is the bidding happening. I mean do you really feel that most of the projects are bidded by the competitors at such a low margin, and therefore we are staying away from those projects.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Actually, there are different types of projects like different bodies in India, and all pertaining to the railways or highways. It could be many, many such clients. Certain projects, maybe the value is lower, maybe some brokers are run-of-the mill, and therefore, you have many people picking it up and some of them probably at a very low margin, if I would say so, but at the end of it, the universe is large, and there are many projects which are coming up. Where we feel that we should be able to get some part of it and we should be able to maintain our margins as well. So, we are basically continuing to focus on those kind of projects. There are good enough of value projects sitting there as well.

So last year, the projects that you’ve seen where we have probably not come forward, is because we felt that those were being picked up at a very low margins or at losses. But currently we are looking at a lot of opportunities where we should be able to take it at a decent margin.

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

Okay, and do we look at anything other than the railways and highways also.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Related, [Speech Overlap] look at building construction, we look at PMCs, we look at airports. Again, PMC at airports and anything related we are open to it, and we are looking at some of these aspects. So, tunnels, complex bridges, we are looking at all of these.

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

Okay, now my second question is regarding the other income that we receive. So, for the full-year on a standalone basis, it was around INR340 crores and [Indecipherable] it was INR382 crores. So, this has jumped significantly. So is there any one-off like income tax refund or any write bags, which may not occur in the future.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

So, it’s a small amount, INR17 crores we have bought as interest on income tax refunds. And the rest is all out of dividend and interest income. Basically, the reason why it’s gone up is as I mentioned, two of our projects have been declared commercial in HAM category. And as a part of that HAM, when we get annuity, a part of annuity comes at normal turnover and a part of it goes as part of other income. So that jump is because of that basically, and I can tell you that because HAM projects will continue to give me annuity in both of these.

Abhishek Maheshwari — Sky Ridge Wealth Management — Analyst

Okay and how much it would be annual, HAM project.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

See, HAM projects we currently have two commercial and we are still to do another four to five projects. So, it will keep growing. I mean, there is not a set number that I can tell you right now. [Speech Overlap]

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

[Speech Overlap] yeah, current financial year other income.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

For current financial year, the interest in, out of other income, about INR127 crores pertains to interest relating to annuity model of time.

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

Okay, okay. So, most of the increase is due to that only. So, is it fair to assume that this kind of other income will be sustainable?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Yes, absolutely.

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

Okay. And now my last question is, if I see the annual numbers on the revenue — the difference between the revenue of standalone and consol is around INR400 crores. So, we have done INR9,900 crores in standalone and INR10,400 crore in consol. And if I see the PBT before the share of profit, it comes down like INR883 crores in the standalone and INR860 crore in the consol. So obviously the subsidiaries are making losses. So how do you see then going ahead? Do you expect it to turn-around in the near-future.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Yeah, so, I mean, if I can say so, it is almost like a one-off increase. In one of my subsidiaries called IISL, [Indecipherable] needs to do, which is what I’ve done this time, and it was a one-time tick. So, I don’t see that number increasing going forward or coming again for that number.

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

How much it was?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

It was about close to about INR17 crores, INR18 crores. And in joint venture of course we had a further hit [Phonetic] which we mentioned last-time also, there is some policy changes, as well as certain losses which have been incurred by one of my core JD, it is called Chhattisgarh CERL, and has taken a hit to the extent of 26%.

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

Okay, and other than the tax writebacks of any of the earlier year, our normal tax-rate will be 25% right?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

That’s right.

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

Okay, okay, that’s it from my side. Thanks.

Operator

Thank you. We have the next question from the line of Vishal Periwal from IDBI Capital. Please go ahead.

Vishal Periwal — IDBI Capital — Analyst

Hi madam, thanks a lot for the opportunity, and congratulations on good set of results. So, first thing, even back in FY ’23, we saw that initially we commented like the revenue growth will be in the range of 10 odd percent, and finally we have done pretty good. Even now we are conservatively guiding or probably like you think that could surprise an upside or maybe this is the way one should see.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

So, Vishal, the point is, even I did not know that execution pressure from Government of India before the elections would give us this kind of revenue. So, ideally speaking, if we would have moved at the kind of pace that we were moving, the numbers that we gave you is what we had envisaged. But believe me, there is an order execution pressure, and because of which we have done phenomenally well this year. And, I mean, I cannot say, because again the elections are coming in March ’24, so I don’t know how much of that momentum will continue. But again, as of now realistically speaking, even after considering this number of this FY’23, I think that we should be able to do another 5% to 7% on this number. I don’t see that going very aggressive because right now we are peaking in terms of our execution capacity. Does that answer your question? Vishal?

Operator

Excuse me, ma’am. The current participant seems to have dropped from the queue. We have the next participant, Shreyans Mehta with the next question. Please go ahead.

Shreyans Mehta — Equirus Securities. — Analyst

Yeah, thanks for the opportunity and congratulations on a strong execution. A couple of questions from my side. One, of the current order book, are there any [Indecipherable] projects or you have the order book which is totally moving?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Pardon, I didn’t get your question.

Shreyans Mehta — Equirus Securities. — Analyst

The current order book which you have of around INR36,000 odd crores, so are there any slow-moving order in that order book?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Slow moving, no, no. Moving in the sense, it could be a year or two year here or there in terms of the delays, but most of the projects would continue the way they are.

Shreyans Mehta — Equirus Securities. — Analyst

Got it. So, if you then [Indecipherable] with that number, which is you remain one to two years.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

I mean, projects typically takes about three to four years to execute. So, particularly we have a project of bullet train, which will complete a little time more than that. So that is what I’m trying to say. So, there will be certain orders which would be two-to-three-year spreads. There would be certain with three to four years, and there are certain which would be spread about five years’ timeframe.

Shreyans Mehta — Equirus Securities. — Analyst

Perfect. Got it, got it, certainly in terms of our execution, has the high-speed rail and the solar power has got it contributing in terms of the revenues.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Solar power we are under construction right now. I mean, in fact, we are under land aggregation right now. It should start contributing from the next year, currently [Foreign Speech] but basically next year, FY ’24, ’25.

Shreyans Mehta — Equirus Securities. — Analyst

And if you could help me out with the high-speed rail corridor contribution during the quarter and likely contribution next year.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Okay, okay. High-speed of course will take time, but then it is an EPC project, so I am basically booking my revenue every year on it. It should get completed by ’26, ’27.

Shreyans Mehta — Equirus Securities. — Analyst

Okay, so ma’am, can you just highlight in terms of contribution during say FY’23 and likely contribution in FY ’24 particularly from this project.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

So that I can tell you right now. I mean, it’s just too much of the detail we can give you later on. But overall, my numbers, as I mentioned in turnover will continue, there will be certain projects which will be declining and there will be certain which will be picking up. So the number would remain 10,000 plus, about 5% to 7%.

Shreyans Mehta — Equirus Securities. — Analyst

Sure, so ma’am, continuing on that front, so 5% to 7% growth, which you are seeing is on consol basis, can you help me out with the similar growth number for standalone.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

In fact, I’m telling you from both perspective because we have a difference of about INR400 crores to INR500 crore in our standalone and consol, so, more or less similar level.

Shreyans Mehta — Equirus Securities. — Analyst

And in terms of our investments, what are the current investments put together in all our JVs, say roads and the others.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Our current investment are about INR2,000 crores including the interest free loans.

Shreyans Mehta — Equirus Securities. — Analyst

And likely contribution in the next one year.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

[Speech Overlap] bearing loans and that will be closed to 2,200.

Shreyans Mehta — Equirus Securities. — Analyst

And likely, investment in next say, one year, two years.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

So next one year, we expect our [Indecipherable] interest-free loan investment in the range of INR600 crores to INR700 crore. And based on the existing HAM projects that we have, as well as the coal JV projects that we have, another INR600 crores in the year after that. Total loans of INR1,200 crores to INR1,300 crores, this year and next year.

Shreyans Mehta — Equirus Securities. — Analyst

Got it, got it, got it. And in terms of our cash and bank balances, our own cash and bank balance number.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

It’s about INR850 odd crores.

Shreyans Mehta — Equirus Securities. — Analyst

So, INR850 odd crores, so sequentially has it declined?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Yeah, because we are investing equity in our projects. Profit going to new businesses.

Shreyans Mehta — Equirus Securities. — Analyst

Got it, but ma’am, we would have also during the quarter we have made profit as well. We could have calculated. So, on a net basis we’ve invested more than that. I think Q3, Q4, we’ve also done a [Indecipherable] and that would have translated into some profitability some cash flows.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Yeah. My overall profitability is about INR700 crores, INR800 crores on a standalone basis. So out of INR700 crores, in this particular year itself, I think I spent about roughly INR500 crores, INR600 crores.

Shreyans Mehta — Equirus Securities. — Analyst

So that could be during Q4 itself?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Partly in Q4, I’m talking about the full-year results of Q4. And then the overall my profit number is 700. I have something like about 700 to 800 is what I’ve already invested already. In fact [Foreign Speech], interest loans and [Foreign Speech]. And then we’ve also paid out dividend, interim dividend during the year. On that basis of which, you get an overall number of tax of about INR850 crores.

Shreyans Mehta — Equirus Securities. — Analyst

Okay, perfect, perfect. And lastly on the JV, which we have we’ve been riding that, will start turning profit probably by FY ’24 and so are you on track on that front.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

I sorry, again, I didn’t get your question. Actually your question tends to break, yeah.

Shreyans Mehta — Equirus Securities. — Analyst

Basically, I want to understand is we have been guiding that JV Profit will start accruing to us because you know some of our JVs are still to come into that phase. So are we on track that those JVs will start seeing profit in FY ’24.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

So again, in terms of my subsidiaries or SPVs. I’ve already had two commercials, I mean, two of my SPVs have been declared commercial in FY ’23, so the full-year benefit should be visible in FY ’24. And in terms of joint-ventures, again, two of my joint-ventures, phase one each for both of these joint-ventures has already commissioned.

Shreyans Mehta — Equirus Securities. — Analyst

Got it, got it, got it. And if I may, one last question, in terms of monetization, do we need to go deeper more, are we allowed to monetize the assets which we have.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

So that is something we have right now going to. We are in the process of hiring a consultant, through which we will be taking all this clarity. I mean, there is no such written guideline. We’ve had some series of interaction with DPM as well as DPE, and ministry on a very informal basis. So we understand it should be doable. But let us have a formal report from a consultant on it.

Shreyans Mehta — Equirus Securities. — Analyst

Sure, sure. So that’s it from my side. Thank you and all the best.

Operator

Thank you. We have the next question from the line of Vishal Periwal from IDBI Capital. Please go ahead.

Vishal Periwal — IDBI Capital — Analyst

Yeah, sorry, ma’am, my line dropped off. My second question was on I think you mentioned FY ’23 order inflow is INR500 crore, but I think if we do a working that’s implied basis that the start of the year order book and then what exactly it is, so it comes to around INR1,400 odd crores. So is it the project escalation that has led to this.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

It has been from variances on my existing projects.

Vishal Periwal — IDBI Capital — Analyst

Okay, fine, and in a standalone I think we can see for a full-year basis tax-rate works out to be around 12%, 11%, 12% odd, so is there any loss-making — I mean, what exactly is leading to this and how do you see this FY ’24 and ’25 tax-rate.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Tax rate is 25%. It is just that the we have had couple of refunds and income tax because of which some deferred taxation effects have also taken place.

Vishal Periwal — IDBI Capital — Analyst

Okay, okay, so is it fair to say that all these refunds we have received it and probably for next year, we can have a normal 25% tax-rate.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

I think we should be having another good year of income tax refunds if all goes well. In terms of quantum, it may not be as high as INR80 crores or INR90 crores, but I am hopeful of getting another few crores again, because this is one area where we are stringently following up and getting all our refunds.

Vishal Periwal — IDBI Capital — Analyst

Okay, okay, Sure, and then I think you had mentioned to one of the previous participant question that it could be investment in various subsidiaries and JV of INR600 crore FY ’24 and same number for FY’25. But for the construction work that we’re doing, so any capex that is planned for that and in standalone level.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

You know, at a standalone level, our capex number is limited to about INR100 odd crores. This would be more for equipment and plant and machinery, etc., but otherwise our main focus is on equity investments for interest-free loan investments.

Vishal Periwal — IDBI Capital — Analyst

Okay, Got it ma’am, and then one last question, I think we have done at a standalone level, if you see that we have done pretty good PBT. But when it comes to cash-flow, so probably things are like yet to see them. So, as we are moving toward competitive bid project, is the working capital requirement different from the nomination projects.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

It has nothing to do with working capital, in fact, we are pretty much poised on the working capital, as I mentioned, the cash-flow improvement, we would not have seen because I’ve already invested a lot of money into my JVs and subsidiaries in this year itself. So apart from the interim dividend, I’ve had some capex at this time, and then I’ve had my equity investments. And that is how my overall profit is getting utilized, but there is no working capital issue whatsoever in our standalone balance sheet.

Vishal Periwal — IDBI Capital — Analyst

Okay, okay. Sure, ma’am. And that’s all from my side and thank you very much.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Manish Ostwal from Nirmal Bang Securities. Please go ahead.

Manish Ostwal — Nirmal Bang Securities Private Limited — Analyst

I have follow-up question on your guidance. So, you said 5% to 7% revenue growth for the year 2024. Yet, if I take that number and your comment about we are again working towards to achieve the previous peak order book, then the order inflow for the year will be very, very large number. So can you extend both your comments.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

So, I am saying, our idea is to get the target high, and to achieve a closing order book of that number. One thing is that it doesn’t come at the beginning of the year, and in our kind of industry if you really depend on the number of projects and the size of the projects. You may get an order book, but it may not start building revenue immediately.

Manish Ostwal — Nirmal Bang Securities Private Limited — Analyst

I got you, madam, like for example, the starting point is INR35,000 crores and we are guiding of INR11,000 crores of revenue. So, if you knock off that number, the number is INR24,000 crores and then you are talking about INR40,000 crores plus.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

When I meant INR45,000 crores, what I meant was that ultimately that is the target, we may be initially going for another INR10,000 crores, INR12,000 crores by this year end, and maybe another INR10,000 crores by the next year. It is very difficult to actually put a number to it as you start adding those kind of high-value orders. So, it is not when I am saying that we will have a INR45,000 crores after another INR10,000 crore of turnover by the year end. It could well be that we’ve got another INR0,000 crores of orders, and we have also executed another INR10,000 crores, and net-net we are at a level of about INR35,000 crores to INR38,000 crores.

Manish Ostwal — Nirmal Bang Securities Private Limited — Analyst

So basically, INR45,000 crores can be by FY’ 25, right?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

It can be even FY ’23, but it’s still preliminary for me to say, because we are bidding for some big-ticket job. But finally, doesn’t know how the competition will shape up. All I’m trying to say is that we will continue to focus on getting more of that at the same margin.

Manish Ostwal — Nirmal Bang Securities Private Limited — Analyst

Sure, sure. Thanks ma’am. Absolutely. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of CA Akash Dhanuka, an individual investor. Please go ahead. Akaash Dhanuka, the line for you has been unmuted, you may proceed with your question. As there is no response from the participant, we will proceed with the next question which will be from the line of Karan Mehta from Nirzar Securities. Please go-ahead.

Karan Mehta — Nirzar Securities — Analyst

Hello, Am I audible?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Yes.

Karan Mehta — Nirzar Securities — Analyst

I just have one question. So, we have got very healthy margins in our international business in Q4, so I just wanted to know what is the reason for these kind of margins, and are they sustainable? And what will be the outlook for margins for international business in FY ’24.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

So, our margins have increased in international business in Q4. There were a couple of reasons, we’ve had certain increase in our value of projects in Algeria, as well as one other in, I think we’ve had it in Malaysia. But as far as — there’s also been some particular provisions that we’ve written back because they have become time bound. And that is the reason this kind of percentage of EBITDA you’re seeing against international business. Going forward, in terms of what would be at the same margins in international business, it should be in the range of 8% to 9% maybe. 11% is on a higher side and because of certain one-off incidence.

Karan Mehta — Nirzar Securities — Analyst

Okay, okay, fine. Yeah, so in Q4, we have been able to get around 44% of margin. So, you are saying that on a full-year basis, that it will be only at 8% to 9%, is that so?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Yeah, so on a full-year basis, currently it is at about I think 11% in case of EBITDA margins, but going-forward, it will be 8% to 9% year.

Karan Mehta — Nirzar Securities — Analyst

Okay, okay, that’s it from my side. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. We have the next question from the line of Dipen Shah, an Individual Investor. Please go-ahead.

Dipen Shah — Individual Investor — Analyst

Yeah, thank you for the opportunity and congratulations on a good set of numbers. I had one question about the company’s capabilities. In the past calls, we have been saying that we are focused on building capabilities after which we will start bidding for relatively higher-margin projects. So can you just throw some color on what is the kind of capabilities we are developing and what stage we are in?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Sorry, could you repeat your question?

Dipen Shah — Individual Investor — Analyst

In the past calls, we have been saying that the company is building capabilities because of which it can take over higher-margin projects. So could you just give us some color on what is the kind of capabilities that company is building, and at what stage we are in.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Yeah, yeah, so the first thing is we are talking of sustained margins, not higher margins. The second thing is that we are saying that vi-a-vis a standard rail, civil job or a road civil job, what we had is we’ve had a viaduct experience, we have had some complex tunneling experience, especially in the hills, different difficult geology. Then we have also done certain complex bridges. So given all these factors, wherever such kind of opportunities are there, we should definitely have a niche.

Dipen Shah — Individual Investor — Analyst

Okay, and another question is like could you just give us some insight on how do we compete with RVNL which is another government company, probably in similar kind of business, and how do we differentiate with that company?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

So, we compete with many other players and RVNL happens to be one of them. In terms of our experience and expertise, I think we can take pride by saying that we had a better mix of experience. We have done some very complex job. As I mentioned in your previous question. Second thing is that we are one of the initial ones who have taken the diversification initiatives. If you see we are well-poised, even if the entire order book is not coming from railways. We already got into highways, we are already into their commercial operations. We know the nuances and we understand the industry. Even in terms of our order book, I think we have almost close to 55% of our order book on bidding basis. RVNL typically had most of it on a nomination basis. And internationally, the kind of experience Ircon has, I don’t think others have that kind of a parallel experience. So, those are the factors that we have. But in terms of actually going ahead and winning a job, it depends a lot of business strategy. And yeah, they are a competitor to us and so are we to them.

Dipen Shah — Individual Investor — Analyst

Sure, understood. And lastly, on the core EBITDA margins, in the current year, if I’m not wrong, we did about 7.2% on a consolidated basis for the full year. We probably were targeting 8 to 8.5, so on a four level on a consolidated basis, what should we pencil in, in terms of margins next year.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

So, I was explaining that if we [Indecipherable] out of other income, I was to take count the annuity-based interest income and club it revenue from operations because in HAM a part of the annuity goes into other income. If I were to do that regrouping, my core EBITDA currently is also at 8.31%, and we should continue to maintain that in the range of 8% to 8.5%. In fact, I mean, it could go down slightly going forward, but I think we have been already saying that our EBITDA would be in the range of 10% to 11%, and core EBITDA in the range of 7.5% to 9%, so that is the range.

Dipen Shah — Individual Investor — Analyst

Okay, thank you very much, ma’am. And all the very best to you.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Abhishek Maheshwari from Sky Ridge Wealth Management. Please go ahead.

Abhishek Maheshwari — Sky Ridge Wealth Management — Analyst

Yeah, thank you for my follow-up. So, a follow-up on the previous participant’s question. He already asked about the core EBITDA margins. So, my question was more about the PAT level, consol PAT level. So, as you said, the core EBITDA, you plan to maintain, if not it will marginally decrease. So PAT also it should be in similar range, 7% or so.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

That is right. PAT, again, we will be in the range of 7% to 7.5% going forward.

Abhishek Maheshwari — Sky Ridge Wealth Management — Analyst

Okay, and ma’am, now that the competitive share of order book has increased compared to nomination basis. So, we would have thought maybe there might be a slight depreciation in margin, but the fact that you are giving a guidance of sustaining margins, we are very happy to hear that. So just wanted to compliment you on that. Thank you.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Thank you so much, because I think that this could be more because of the lifecycle of the project and also on certain provisions that we have to create from an accounting angle. So, as I’ve been mentioning, it could go 0.5% here or there, but otherwise we do tend to hopefully continue and maintain numbers.

Abhishek Maheshwari — Sky Ridge Wealth Management — Analyst

So steady state at 7%, maybe. Okay, good to hear ma’am, thank you.

Operator

We have the next question from the line of Jinesh Kothari from HDFC Securities. Please go ahead.

Jinesh Kothari — HDFC Securities — Analyst

Hello, good afternoon, ma’am. Am I audible?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Yes please.

Jinesh Kothari — HDFC Securities — Analyst

Yeah, so my question was on — almost all my questions got covered, but one last question that, given the need that we are having and given the central elections coming up in the next year. So are we looking at some of the — to get some nomination based contracts from the government because we got some, as you mentioned in your previous calls, we got some Japanese technology for the high-speed rail work and we are expecting in the tunnel work, so are we aiming at some of the nomination in this context more compared to competitive bidding.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

As far as I know, there are no nomination-based jobs that have been given immediately. So those are experiences and our expertise which will help us in competing. But personally, I think the more will continue to be competition. However, in MEA kind of jobs, the regiment and MEA are involved in LOC or direct one-to-one job that involved something like Myanmar for that matter. There may be — one can hope here and there for some nomination. But by and large, it’s going to be competitive only going forward.

Jinesh Kothari — HDFC Securities — Analyst

Fine, and largely all our order wins that you mentioned that we will be looking at in next two years, that largely will be in the competitive bidding, I guess.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Yes.

Jinesh Kothari — HDFC Securities — Analyst

Fine. That answers my question. Thank you so much and all the best for the upcoming year.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Shubham Shukla from Voyager Capital. Please go ahead.

Shubham Shukla — Voyager Capital — Analyst

Hi, good evening. Actually, my questions are already answered. So just thank you.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Hiten Boricha from Sequent Investments. Please go-ahead.

Hiten Boricha — Sequent Investments — Analyst

Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity, ma’am. So, most of my questions have been already been answered. Just the one question, so you mentioned last year, we have order wins up only INR500 crores and the reason for that is the competition. So, our orders were mostly into the lower-margin. So just wanted to understand how is the competition looking right now. Are we going to see the margin pressure in the order inflow side point of view. I just wanted to understand the competition, how is it going.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

As I mentioned, there are different categories of orders for business opportunity that one sees in the market. In the past year, lot of those opportunities were where people were going cut throat on the competition and going very low on their margins. There were certain players you probably did not even understand the market per se but quoted very low, in fact below estimates also. So, we did not want to get into that kind of a game. And we wanted all those things to ease out. So, when that has started easing out, and two, there are certain jobs which are large scale, big-ticket and do require vast experience and expertise the kind that we have. There we are hopeful that we’ll be able to protect our margins and yet get the orders, because ultimately there so much thrust on infrastructure in India right now, and we have all kind of opportunities coming from different doors, some of them may be taking time. But we are bidding for those ones where we generally feel, we can take the orders and deliver as well as have the margins thereon. We don’t want to [Indecipherable] There is a spread-out market, and we have opened the PV side of orders in this year.

Hiten Boricha — Sequent Investments — Analyst

So, ma’am, just want to understand is the competition easing now?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

No, no, what happens is that competition really depends on the complexity of the job and the size of the jobs. The order which came last year are and lot of [Indecipherable] kind of people taking it also. Or certain people who are probably doing it has an increased strategy to diversify or to start showcasing that they have competitive ways to win in their order book.

Hiten Boricha — Sequent Investments — Analyst

So largely that is because of the smaller size of the orders which are going to increase this year. Is my understanding correct?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Yeah, so this year we will have all kinds of orders. Some of the orders are the kind of opportunities we need to focus on. We will seriously work on those lines and try getting both out of competitive basis only, but competition must be serious factors.

Hiten Boricha — Sequent Investments — Analyst

Okay, understood. Yeah, and secondly, just a clarification. You mentioned that 25% tax-rate will be for consol basis or a standalone basis, because I understand the tax-rate was lower in the stack on standalone side.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

So on standalone at standard tax-rate will be 25.168%, but every time we get some tax refunds, it also has an impact on the deferred taxation, because the [Speech Overlap] percentage may go haywire. Otherwise, we should be in the range of, I mean, the rate is 25.168% may be a 2%, 3% here or there.

Hiten Boricha — Sequent Investments — Analyst

Okay. That was the only question ma’am. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. [Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of CA Akash Dhanuka, an individual investor. Please go ahead.

CA Akash Dhanuka — Individual Investor — Analyst

Good afternoon, ma’am. Am I audible?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Yes please.

CA Akash Dhanuka — Individual Investor — Analyst

Yeah, congratulations on the great set of numbers. Ma’am, I just wanted to confirm two, three things on the HAM side. In the Q4, we had INR173 crores of other income, and out of that is INR127 crores the annuity interest or on total INR381 crores, INR127 crores is the annuity interest?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Out of 381, 127. I am actually talking on an annual basis.

CA Akash Dhanuka — Individual Investor — Analyst

Okay, so out of 173, ma’am, what is the breakup?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Out of 173, I think about 88 crores is on HAM.

CA Akash Dhanuka — Individual Investor — Analyst

Okay. So, on the on an annual basis ma’am, what can we expect in FY ’24?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

FY ’24, you can say, it should be close to about INR320 odd crores out of the existing two projects that we have in HAM, which are already commercial. The rest are under construction anyways, and then take. It is about INR300 odd crores, if 80 is for quarter, then it should be into four.

CA Akash Dhanuka — Individual Investor — Analyst

Okay, okay, thank you, thank you, and another question, ma’am. The two months have already passed, ma’am in this quarter. So can we expect you to deliver the same kind of results that we have delivered in the Q4 one?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

See, there is always a difference between Q4 and Q1 for any company. So I wouldn’t say that Q1 for this year will be equal to Q4, but nevertheless, overall execution pressure is there. We have a lot of work to be completed by, in fact, most by December and some by March ’24. So, while I will not be able to comment anything further. But yes, Q1 should give me good results as compared to previous Q1. But I don’t know how much it can really match for Q4.

CA Akash Dhanuka — Individual Investor — Analyst

Okay, I mean, but the difference is used between the Q1 and Q4. I mean, Q1 last year was pretty dismal compared to Q4 this year.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Yeah, so we can wait for some time and wait for results to come. Because, again, what happens is, many of our project somewhere in June, July, August, we have the rainy months.

CA Akash Dhanuka — Individual Investor — Analyst

Sure, so I understand that, ma’am. Yeah, just a last question on the tax part. You had briefly mentioned about that the refund had trickled in and that had an effect on the deferred tax part and the normal taxation is around 25.168%. And it will be hovering around 2%, 3% below that this year. So can we expect you will be paying 22% tax approximately this year compared to 15% you paid last year.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

No, I can’t say that because I am expecting for more refunds this year. So it could even go down further, but it is something which I only get to know when I have those refund orders in my hands.

CA Akash Dhanuka — Individual Investor — Analyst

Okay, so it will be below 20.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

No, I cannot comment that to be below 20, 22, I cannot get into these numbers.

CA Akash Dhanuka — Individual Investor — Analyst

Okay, okay, thank you for the details, and all the best for the future.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Manoj Sah from Laxgov Investments. Please go ahead.

Manoj Sah — Laxgov Investments. — Analyst

Yeah, thank you for the opportunity, ma’am. I just wanted to start [Indecipherable] order. Who bears the raw-material price increase risk. So, if there is an escalation clause pass on clauses, you can pass on to the customers or how does it go, if you can comment on that.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

So, there is a price variation clause. And that’s effectively we have with the contractor as well as with the clients. So typically I don’t tend to take risk on that account.

Manoj Sah — Laxgov Investments. — Analyst

So basically, you don’t take a hit in case of increase in the commodity.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

See again, the formula is different from the actual procurement side that you will do, but at the end of it, at time it would go plus, at times it could go minus. For ten days, we have not taken any major debt on.

Manoj Sah — Laxgov Investments. — Analyst

There is an escalation clause, we can pass on the higher costs. Okay and in case of new and your company and RVNL are more or less in a similar kind of business. Is there any chances or a anything around the merger of even in case the merger, do we see any kind of synergy between these two companies.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

So while we are not aware of any such process which is going on in terms of merger. In terms of synergy, again I mean that’s an exercise which we will have to do. It’s a similar, but there are lot of other points that one will need to see in detail. Should this ever happen and we will be examining it at the right time if there is any such direction from the government.

Manoj Sah — Laxgov Investments. — Analyst

Okay and one more thing ma’am. You said like you might get order book which is currently at INR35,000 crores, might swell to INR45,000 crores to INR50,000 crores, out of which might execute INR10,000 crores, INR11,000 crores. So and by the year end of March FY ’24 you will end up order book of around INR35,000 crores, is that correct understanding?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

I was trying to correct the gentlemen to say that it is not that we will — I’m commenting that we will have an year-end order book of 45,000, so this is what should be the likely scenario. But again. I mean, we are sitting in May, and as I mentioned, we are having a focused approach towards getting orders. One order here and there could actually get you to jump quite a few 1,000 crores here or there, so I don’t know where we’ll end-up, but that is where I’m saying that we should be there.

CA Akash Dhanuka — Individual Investor — Analyst

Okay, so what you’re saying is this year, your order bids — the pipeline built are of a very large quantum of the size of the orders is large. It can swing either way.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

It is mix, so some of them are large. So if we get it, then it could immediately increase in order book, if we don’t, because it’s a competitive bidding after all. And obviously, you don’t get those kind of orders. So, it’s very difficult to predict the outcome. All we are saying is that we will continue to fight and hopefully we should be able to get that kind of order book at the end of the year.

Manoj Sah — Laxgov Investments. — Analyst

And regarding the executions of the [Indecipherable] you are in a position to execute order in the range of INR10,000 crores, INR11,000 crores. We are trying to put more resources towards increasing this execution capacity.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

So, you know our execution capacity will never be a hindrance to getting a particular revenue. Because we have the required skill-set also and we can augment the manpower for it. But typically speaking, I mean based on experience that we’ve had in this company, we I think that’s the kind of level we should reach next year as well. But it does not in any which way mean that my revenue will come down, because I didn’t ask the people to execute.

Manoj Sah — Laxgov Investments. — Analyst

So execution won’t be a hindrance to

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Yeah, so my manpower or my machinery will not be a hindrance to execution.

Manoj Sah — Laxgov Investments. — Analyst

Okay, but in the next two-three years, we will continue to expect the execution in that 10,000, 11,000 range or do you think you are over next two-three years you might…

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Let us see what our order book is going to be by the end of FY ’24. And then we will know the outcome. Because, it also depends on the kind of orders we do. There could be some orders which we may be doing over a period of two years or 18 months. There could be some, like for example bullet train is a very prestigious project. But it has a very different technology, very different raw materials, different kind of molds and technology that we need to build. For this, it has a longer time duration and basically execute. So average revenue will also depend upon the complexity of the project, the size of the project, the geology of the location. So many factors. Very difficult to tell.

Manoj Sah — Laxgov Investments. — Analyst

Okay, Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. [Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Prasad Donde from Arcade Investments. Please go ahead.

Prasad Donde — Arcade Investments — Analyst

Hello. am I audible? Yeah, madam, thank you for the opportunity and congratulations for the great set of execution. I have a little different question madam, because I heard all the participants on the order book. I have a little longer horizon question. So recently I heard our railway minister in [Indecipherable] where he made a point that India needs to invest something like INR3 lakh crores in railways for the next decade or so. So that’s the kind of an opportunity he is seeing basically as an investor, and we are seeing in railway and there is already a big capex happening in highways, in the road sector. So I just wanted to understand, Ircon, again, being in a very [Indecipherable] deliver, how is it gearing up to grab this opportunity for maybe five to 10 years in terms of building capabilities. I mean how would you build your company or build the capability for this opportunity. How do you look at these opportunities.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

So, our honorable MR has mentioned a INR3 lakh crore kind of capex outlay. And he does expect even all companies to contribute to it including the PSU which is [Indecipherable] and in terms of gearing up, see in our kind of an ECC scope, our gearing up is on three accounts. One is that we are doing as much a complex work as we can which probably the developed nations are doing and it is something new in India. Those are areas that we continuously monitor and we’ve tried to take a lead. That is the reason we are doing the bullet train projects, for example, or in fact, we were one of the earlier one to take and play an important role in Delhi Metro projects. So, whenever we feel there is a particular kind of an opportunity which is going to get India or can come in India, we are trying to play the role. And so it’s a continuous learning process. So we have our experience from the past few years. We have the requisite team, the skill-set, even the right kind of contracted with us with whom we have built over the relationship. So, all that is there. So, on the input side, I don’t think we feel that we will that we will lag behind, should be moving higher at a very fast speed. In terms of actually getting the orders, the space has been opened up to competition. And it’s been opened up to all kinds of players. There are players who may have that kind of experience. There may be players who will try to get that experience. By picking on those jobs with probably even a very low margin or at a loss. That is of course, survival of the fittest kind of an approach, which will happen. But [Indecipherable] as well as the fact that we have the right skill-sets and that we’ve been always delivering on in terms of quality and efficiency. I think we are rated one of the highest. So given all these factors, as a long-term player, we are there to survive and continue to grow. There could be small [Indecipherable] here and there, because you will have all kind of competitors around there.

Prasad Donde — Arcade Investments — Analyst

Yeah, that’s quite comforting and great. And that’s a great response. Just one follow-up question, maybe I can ask. I have been hearing you for last many concalls and even today, you made a point. Last time, 10% to 12% topline growth this time, 5% to 7% so even given that opportunity is so big, why can’t Ircon target or we target to grow at much higher double-digit kind of growth on the top-line since the opportunity is there. I mean in the past, there was an opportunity, but now we have railways and highways. So are we really becoming conservative in those terms.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

No, no, what happened is the opportunity, it is like a top-down approach, you said that India is growing at this much kind of an GDP and oil and gas industry should be growing at the [Indecipherable] Indian oil will be growing at the same, it doesn’t happen that way, because there is a INR3 lakh crores budget in railways, a lot of that could be of redevelopment of stations for example. Those are activities because we’ve been in the industry, we may know the nuances of it, it’s not an easy doing an existing station redevelopment and continuing to maintain margins and you will see having extra work there on, and it will be a typically a very delayed project. I mean, I’m just giving an example. So similarly you have certain SMB projects, certain electrification projects, there are these — a lot of money is going towards supplies of locos and Vande Bharat trains. Now that has not been a forte of Ircon. So if one has to go into such kind of industries, if at all then one has to do a proper research and see to go ahead or not. But whatever is our domain, there is enough opportunity there and we will be pursuing. But to say we will be galloping, it’s practically it doesn’t happen that way. We are geared up for it, should that come to us that way, we will do. But [Foreign Speech] that’s a more of a top-down of way of looking at things.

Prasad Donde — Arcade Investments — Analyst

Thanks. Thanks, thanks a lot. That’s it from my side. Thanks a lot and best of luck.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Dixit Doshi from Whitestone Financial Advisors. Please go ahead.

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

Yeah, thanks for the opportunity again. Just one clarification, you mentioned that out of the INR120 crores of revenue from the annuity and other that income, INR80 crores came in the Q4 only, so is it that this project started in late Q3 and therefore there was no income on the earlier quarter.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

[Speech Overlap] Happened somewhere in Q3. You are right. [Foreign Speech] There is a six month after which you get annuity. So, some of that started in Q2 [Indecipherable] finally they started coming in Q4.

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

Okay out of this INR380 crores If I remove this 120 and some interest on the income tax, still, our other income almost of INR200 crores to INR250 crores, it is a consistent other Income beds predominantly our interest on advances or cash that we have.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Yeah, INR320 crores [Foreign Speech] standalone?

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

No, no, so INR380 crores of total other income, of which, let’s say INR120 crores was this annuity income from HAM and another INR20 crores is interest on income tax refund. So, if I remove both of that, then INR250 crores is normal other income. That is predominantly income from the cash that we have.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

So what happened is we have in fact from FDs or mutual funds, as the case maybe and we also have certain other interest income. So by and large, till the time. I haven’t utilized all of this funding to equity investments, I should be able to get that kind of money, but you know this is assuming [Foreign Speech] Then at the kind of level we should be able to maintain with the kind of interest rates which are prevailing right now.

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

Yeah, and in terms of the order book. So, let’s say, currently we have around INR35,000 crores order book and we are targeting five5%, 6% growth in next year. Now what they were order, either INR10,000 crores or INR15,000 crore whatever new orders we received this financial year, it will take time to start. So, considering the current order book and the phase of different projects must be at a different lifecycle. So, considering that, can we say that even in FY ’25 our growth rate could be around 8% to 10%.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

I think that is something which we will like to say after maybe a quarter or so, because I cannot give that kind of a commitment, we would ideally like to have that. Any company or its management would like to target that. But whether will really come or not will also depend upon the additions in order book that I have.

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

And this INR35,000 crore average execution timeline would be three years.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Yeah, that’s right.

Dixit Doshi — Whitestone Financial Advisors Private Limited — Analyst

Okay, Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. [Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Sajal Agarwal, an Individual Investor. Please go ahead.

Sajal Agarwal — Individual Investor — Analyst

Ma’am, I have a question. So there has been a recent announcement by the Karnataka government that they will be cancelling some state orders and they will be deferring few payments. So just wanted to understand, do we have any current order which we are executing for Karnataka state government?

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

No, we are not.

Sajal Agarwal — Individual Investor — Analyst

Okay, and is there any anything in our order book.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

No.

Sajal Agarwal — Individual Investor — Analyst

Okay ma’am. Thanks a lot.

Operator

Thank you. [Operator Instructions] As there are no further questions, I would now like to hand the conference.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Just a second, just a second. I think I’ll just like to clarify the issue on interest income international. I think a gentleman had said that we earned something about 40% to 44% for this year, which is true, we have gone about 44% this year out of our international business in terms of EBITDA margin. But going-forward, depending upon the kind of job we pickup up going ahead, I think that number can drop down, but though it will be very difficult to say how much would that number be, so I just want to stay corrected that currently the margin had been in the range of 40% in international business.

Operator

Thanks. Ma’am, we have no further questions at the moment, so I would like to hand the conference over to you for closing comments. Over to you ma’am.

Ragini Advani — Director Finance

Yeah, thank you. Thank you for moderating the call. Thank you, Perfect Relations for organizing this call, and thanks to all our stakeholders, business partners, analysts, investor friends. Who have shown faith on us and supported us. We do hope to continue to have your support and we as management do continue to show our loyalty as well as our desire to grow the way we have grown till now. I understand the concern most of you have around the order book, and that is something that we even we are focused on. We would be happy to connect with any or all of you on a one-to-one basis if required for any further queries. I conclude today’s concall. Thank you all for active participation. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. [Operator Closing Remarks]