Asian Paints Limited (ASIANPAINT) Q4 FY23 Earnings Concall Transcript

Asian Paints Limited (NSE:ASIANPAINT) Q4 FY23 Earnings Concall dated May. 11, 2023.

Corporate Participants:

Sunila Martis — Leading Investor Relations

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

R.J. Jeyamurugan — Chief Financial Officer and Company Secretary

Analysts:

Abneesh Roy — Nuvama — Analyst

Percy Panthaki — IIFL Securities — Analyst

Parag Rane — General Manager, Finance

Mihir Shah — Nomura Securities — Analyst

Sheela Rathi — Morgan Stanley — Analyst

Unidentified Participant — — Analyst

Avi Mehta — Macquarie — Analyst

Tejash Shah — Avendus Spark — Analyst

Latika Chopra — J.P. Morgan — Analyst

Chirag Shah — CLSA — Analyst

Manoj Menon — ICICI Securities — Analyst

Presentation:

Sunila Martis — Leading Investor Relations

Good evening all of you and thanks for joining us today to discuss Asian Paints Q4 and FY ’23 Earnings. I’m Sunila Martis from the Investor Relations team. Together with my colleague, Arun, we are happy to welcome all of you. We have on the dais with us today our MD and CEO, Mr. Amit Syngle. We also have with us Mr. R.J. Jeyamurugan, our CFO and Company Secretary; and we have with us Mr. Parag Rane, AVP Finance.

I would now like to invite Amit for his opening comments.

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

Good evening to everyone. It’s pleasure to kind of meet you after a long-time physically one-on-one and we are all here for looking at the quarter four to the financial year ’23 results in terms of what had been there. Just wanted to take you through a small presentation in terms of what the whole area is all about. As you’re all aware, this is something which is the core value in terms of what we look at delivering joy since 1942. We have completed more than 80 years now in terms of looking at beautifying, preserving and transforming all spaces and objects and bringing happiness to the world and this is something, which is the core in terms of what we really believe as we kind of go forward.

So when we look at in terms of the overall results, I think it’s been a strong performance, which has come in the year — in quarter four and also in the entire financial year ’23, as we kind of look at. Overall numbers when we look at from a point of view of strong double-digit volume growth of about 16% in the quarter, which comes in and for the overall value is closer to about 13% in terms of what we’ve delivered. So strong double-digit numbers coming in there. This translates to the entire year financial year 2003, when we look a strong number of about 14% in terms of volume. And this is despite the fact that quarter three was a bit flat in terms of what we saw and a very, very strong value number of about 20%, which comes in. While it has some component of price increases which were taken overall, but a strong performance coming in, in terms of the overall area of the product mix and other areas in terms of what we have kind of looked at.

What is happening here is, both quarter four and the financial ’23, if you look at the CAGR numbers, they are very, very healthy in terms of what you see, CAGR numbers both on volume and value are strong healthy numbers, which we take and I think this just shows the fact that the organization has been focusing very clearly in terms of not only the value growth, but the volume growths over a three-year period which had been very, very strong in terms of how they have come in.

This is another chart which reflects the same thing in terms of looking at the volume growth over a three-year on a CAGR basis and if you look at possibly the trajectory, again, very strong double-digit numbers coming from us. And this is very clear focusing the fact that the whole area of growth, which is led by volumes in a strong manner comes in there, and this translates obviously to stronger value growth as well over a three-year period to that extent. And this is quite a consistent performance, if are able to see the numbers that way the performance becomes quite consistent in terms of the way we have been growing over a period of time.

Some of the areas in terms of what have been typically the growth drivers as we kind of see it. In our set in quarter four, we looked at both T1, T2 cities and the T3, T4 cities is growing almost at the same pace, which is really heartening because what do you look at in the environment and when you look at FMCGs largely we have been looking at the smaller cities not doing so well to that extent over the last two, three quarters to that extent. But for us, I think, the smaller cities also, which is a very, very strong kind of source of our growth has done quite well over a period of time to that extent. And there are clearly double-digit CAGR numbers, which are coming across both rural and urban centers to that extent.

When we look at the mix in the quarter. Again, the mix is quite good. Largely, we have grown at double-digit numbers, both with respect to the economy, premium and the luxury set of products. So overall, the double-digit kind of story continues with respect to the product mix there. Obviously, some categories have grown even faster in a double-digit mode. So when we look at some of the upgradation emulsions, when we look at waterproofing, look at some segments of flooring and mixtures, they have really kind of gone very well for us and have outstripped even the kind of double-digit growth, which have been across the category to that extent.

As I said, premium and luxury products have been also growing quite well. And today, we have really grained inroads in the premium luxury segment of wood finishes in a very strong manner and that is something which is a strong footprint which has kind of come in across our sales and we have seen this quarter. From a point-of-view of expansion, the distribution keeps on expanding at a very, very strong pace and overall we are speaking of our distribution expansion to about almost 1.5 lakh retail points which are there, which is literally comparable to any FMCG kind of representation which takes place across the network and we are very clear that this is something which is a strategy, which continues so that we are making the product available to more-and-more customers easily across various clusters in various cities.

One of the other big differentiators, which we see ourselves from the competition is the whole servicing footprint. We have something which is the safe painting service and a related service, which is called the trusted contractor service. And these two services put together have been doing exceedingly well, we are touching about 1.7 lakh customers throughout the country with more than 600 towns kind of enabling this service across. We feel this is the globally the world’s largest service footprint any coatings company has to that extent. So it’s decidedly a very, very big kind of a differentiator in terms of what we see. And you must remember that very difficult to kind of really match servicing footprint of any company for any competition to kind of come in to take it and this kind of really gets us in the homes of the customers in a very, very strong manner.

When we look at project institutions, which is the B2B business this again has been growing at a very, very strong pace and we find ourselves not only growing in the builder and the cooperative housing sector, which is there. But very strongly to two sectors where we are focused, which is the factories and the government sector. The government sector has been really exponentially growing with us because of the government spending on infrastructure, which is taking place. Our entire waterproofing range, which consists of membranes and admixtures and some of the other waterproofing kind of products which come in, which are in the repair and have really kind of staggered very strongly in this sector, giving us really unprecedented growths in terms of what we have seen over the last three years and these growths really continue to kind of give us a very, very solid strong footprint. So much so that now Asian Paints is the number-one player in terms of waterproofing as far as you look at from a retail point-of-view in a very strong manner.

Overall, we see that the innovation has been a very, very strong footprint in terms of how the company has been driving the sales over the last seven years we’ve launched about 250 new products in the market, and these are not products which are — just products, which are variants which are coming, products which are really getting a new customer proposition, which is very clear. And today strongly going ahead we have almost applied for 106 patents over some of these products, which we are launching in the market. So a very, very strong innovation pillar, which is kind of invoked and today these products kind of contribute to more than 10% to the total revenue, which is a very healthy figure in terms of what we see, which kind of just showcases the innovation potential in terms of what we are harnessing as we are kind of going ahead.

In addition, all of you are aware, we have been kind of making you aware that strong kind of work happening with respect to capacity expansion in terms of what we have kind of taken and we have already committed a very, very strong capex which is there to some of the brownfield, some of the new projects and also to the backward integration projects, which we’ve announced with respect to cement or our VAM VAE kind of merchant facilities, which have been announced, which you are all aware of. So I think in all the very, very strong indicators, which give the health of the organization in terms of the way we kind of proceeding, and looking at going ahead.

In addition, we continue to kind of really be the voice of the industry with respect to our color and material trends which we introduce. We reach out to more than 7,500 architectural firms across the country and we talk of this proposition, which is very, very strong with respect to what are the kind of trends which we see, which are coming. And these trends are based on socioeconomic kind of movements, which are happening, which reflect on lifestyle trends, and therefore, the whole area of decline in pellet trends strongly.

So a very strong this thing, we introduced this year almost four stories, which are strong in trends and the color of the year is called silver escapade in terms of what comes in, in terms of our launch, which is there. We also have lots of campaigns as part of our marketing initiatives in terms of what we launch and the bottom of the pyramid is a strong area in terms of where we keep on working in terms of really converting the customer from the unorganized to the branded smart emulsions in a very strong manner and some campaigns like this you would have been able to see which are very, very strong which are coming. But not only in this thing, our campaigns with respect to our Luxe categories which are Royale Glitz and some of the other premium products, which we launched have also done very, very well in terms of what we have been kind of taking in.

And today, we can easily say that the share of voice in media is something which outstrips the competition and therefore we don’t shy away from really spending good amount of money from an advertising mix point-of-view. And even in quarter four you would see that our spends in terms of the advertising, marketing has been much higher in terms of looking at really propelling the business as we kind of go head.

Our foray into home decor is something, which is doing extremely well. And today, we operate in so many categories apart from bath, kitchen we have introduced the whole area of kitchen doors, windows, furnishing and furniture and so many other categories rugs and so on so forth, which have come, so that we have become almost integrated player in terms of the home decor offerings. We have now literally by the April end we have about 50 stores operational across the country, and this is something which is a very, very strong initiative, which is kind of coming. And today, this business is about 4% to 4.5% of our total business and we have already announced that by March of ’26, we will look at this home decor business, contributing to about 8% to 10% of our total architectural business going forward.

So this is a substantial kind of investment and strong focus with respect to home decor, because this literally complements the painting category in a very strong manner, because it is all about the same home where you are kind of selling and entering into the customer from a point-of-view of a decor life-cycle of the customer in a strong manner. We have also kind of looked at partnering the customer in terms of making our beautiful home for the customer in a strong manner and we have an end-to-end design and execution service, which is there which is called the Beautiful Home Service.

Now this services a first of a kind experience, coupled with digital visualizations and professional execution which kind of comes in and in its own way, it is something which is going extremely well. We are today, very, very strongly focusing on this service. This service is now the number three service at an India level in terms of what we look as an end-to-end kind of service. In the paint sector, you don’t have any other company, which offers this kind of a service, which really happens. And this is another differentiator over the say painting service, which I had highlighted earlier in terms of what we are speaking off.

As one part of it kitchen and bath is a strong business today. This is about INR800 crores overall as a business in terms of what we look in terms of the overall kitchen plus bath, which kind of comes in. Quarter four has not been very, very strong with respect to the kitchen and bath overall performance because of the sluggish market demand overall in terms of what we saw in the category. However, when we look at the overall year, bath has done relatively well at about 15% growth and also registered a small profit in terms of what has come in, in terms of looking at the bottom-line. As far as kitchen is concerned, the kitchen market is consisting of two things, one is a modular kitchen, which has done extremely well for us and there is a components and hardware business, which has not done too well to that extent and that has contributed to possibly a negative kind of de-growth happening in terms of the quarter four.

And also at a yearly level the Kitchen business because of the competence has not done well and also registered a small loss. But what we are very confident that this is something which is what we should be able to come as we kind of go ahead. Because the whole demand for this category seems to be definitely on and this is something which we are focusing very, very strongly.

When we look at overall the other two categories. If you remember, we acquired two companies, one was White Teak, which was in the decorative lighting business and the other was the Weatherseat which was into the uPVC doors and windows. Both the businesses this year have really taken off very,very strongly, both Q4 has done very well in both the categories, at a yearly level we have literally kind of doubled the numbers to INR109 crores in lighting with a very strong profitability coming there.

And also in terms of the uPVC doors and windows, where we have taken the category, almost from about INR12 crores to about INR25 crores overall in terms of what we have registered and therefore both the categories seem to be doing very well. In lighting, we are now the number one player in terms of the decorative lighting as it kind of really has panned out for us. And therefore, these two categories doing extremely well in terms of the home decor.

Coming quickly to the overall international business. This is the footprint in terms of what you see where we are kind of represented all across in terms of how we have been kind of functioning over the years. And today, when we look at the global environment, there have been, as you are aware, some challenges, which are there in Lanka. And we also have a lot of challenges with respect to devaluation of currency, which is happening in areas like Egypt, Bangladesh, Lanka and so on so forth to that extent. So if I look at basically the quarter-four, obviously, what stood out as the performances in Middle East and Africa where the markets have done overall well, to that extent.

And Asia has been a little bit down because of one Lanka. And secondly, Nepal, because of the political environment there has not been doing too well in terms of what we see. Overall while it shows a de-growth in the global business, but if you look at from a constant-currency terms the growth is to the extent of about almost 9% to 10% in terms of what has taken. It’s only because of the devaluation of the currency that you see a de-growth which is there to that extent of 3%. Overall, it has been quite well from a constant-currency term.

The profitability has been the highlight. In global if you look at from a overall yearly perspective, the profits have been very, very strong in terms of almost registering profits of about INR158 crores and therefore we see that this is something, which is strong in terms of the way we have bounced back in terms of the overall global environment as we see in terms of this year, how it has panned out. So that’s the global business for you.

Coming to the Industrial business. This has been really a strong kind of performance in terms of what we see of both the businesses, one is what we call the auto OE business, it is the PPGAP business and the other is basically the general industrial business, which is the APPPG business to that extent. So if you look at from a revenue point-of-view, both Q4 has done quite well in terms of both the businesses to that extent. And — but the highlight has been the year performance, which you look, which is in double-digit growths, which is really coming out in terms of almost 27%, 26% growths which are there to that extent in terms of the top-line. So both businesses have done very well.

And so also in the area of PBT. If you see the PBT margins have been very, very strong in terms of the growths, which has kind of come in. So industrial business is a highlight in APPPG we have crossed INR1,000 crores for the first time and the business has doubled in about three years’ time. So it’s been a very, very strong performance in terms of overall the industrial business in terms of how we have performed this year and both from top-line and bottom-line. This is really a category which has done extremely well overall.

If we look at gross margins, the gross margins have been going up steadily. Thanks to basically the fact that there has been a softening of the prices and there has been a little bit of deflation in terms of looking at prices across coming down and material costs are a very, very strong component of our business. So when you look at possibly the gross margins at the — on the Q4, we are almost at about 43%, which is one of the highest gross margins in terms of what we are registerign and this is a very, very strong movement, which you are seeing. And I think there was a worry amongst a lot of you in terms of saying where are the margins going to that extent, and I think it is clearly dependent in terms of some of the inflation, which we saw in the past to that extent and a very, very strong recovery with respect to gross margins in quarter four is something, which you see is clearly reflected here in terms of our journey there to that extent.

And what we saw in this quarter-four was about a 4% kind of a deflation, which was seen in this quarter overall. Coming to the standalone results, again as I said, for quarter-four the numbers are very clear where the value growth is about 12%, the volume growth is about 16% overall. The PBDIT numbers and the PBT numbers are very, very strong both quarter-on-quarter and year-on-year, the margins have substantially improved overall to that extent, which is there. The PAT growths are pretty healthy in quarter four about 37% on a stand-alone business in terms of what we see.

On a yearly level, again, if you look at it overall 20% kind of a top-line revenue, which kind of comes in with a 14% volume growth and PBDIT margins have gone up. PBT margins have also gone up from a point-of-view also a yearly perspective. And the PAT growth is to the extent of about 31% overall. So, strong numbers overall for both Q4 as well as for the entire year to that extent and that is something which is really quite positive for the overall business as we kind of see it.

When we look at the consolidated numbers. Obviously, the consolidated numbers get dominated by the standalone numbers to that extent overall. And we see that at consolidated level, again, the overall top-line number for quarter four is about 11% compared to 13% of a standalone, which is there to that extent. But I think again the good point is that the PBDIT margins have gone up in-quarter four to that extent and the PAT is a very healthy 44% kind of increase aided to some extent by the global profitability which has kind of come in, in quarter four as well, as well as in the year to that extent.

When we look at on a yearly basis, again, the top-line numbers are very healthy to about 19%. So just about a percentage down from the standalone numbers of 20% in terms of what you saw. But again. I think the PBDIT and the PBT margins have grown on as we compare with the year-on-year basis, to that extent. And the PAT is again a very healthy 36% in terms of what you see overall coming in. So I think both set of numbers pretty healthy in terms of what we see and I think the heartening part is that the overall margins now are in the range in terms of what we have been talking about. Overall, in terms of where we want it to be as we kind of go ahead to that extent. So I think that is something which is very, very strong in terms of how it has all about come in.

There are some exceptional items in terms of the overall list and this is something which we wanted to highlight. There is some kind of — the expenses which are kind of really coming because of the ongoing problem in Sri Lanka in terms of the literal economic crisis and there is something which we have taken a impairment as a loss. The numbers are not too big, but that is something which we have taken and these are the two numbers which have come as an exception, which we thought we’ll just highlight for you.

So in summary, when we look at, I think, some of the great highlights is very clear that we have now touched INR30,000 crore mark in terms of net sales at standalone level, which is a very, very strong number. And this is three times the nearest competitor in India. So that generally shows the size which is there and I must remind you that today, the overall market size of paints is closer to about INR70,000 crores to about 75,000 crores, out of which this becomes a substantial segment in terms of what we are operating in.

We are seeing double-digit volume and value growth of deco business for the year and that is something which is very strong because you can easily see that the best numbers are not small numbers, the base are very, very strong numbers coming in there. And to growth on that on double-digits is no mean task in terms of what we have kind of taken on. Overall, committed to the home decor revenue. We have said that 8% to 10% we’ll take and a very clear focus on this category. As I said, this business complements the existing coatings business in a very, very strong manner.

The non-auto industrial business, which is the general Industrial business for our protective coatings and otherwise is something which has crossed a landmark INR1,000 crores and it has doubled the business in three years, with very strong profitability also rising to that extent, which is a very good and positive sign in terms of showing the ingress of Asian Paints, not only from an architectural point of view, but also from an industrial point of view in a strong manner. In global, as I said, while the numbers were looking weak, but if you look at from a constant currency terms, we still have a double-digit growth, which we have been able to take, and this is because of the fact that there are devaluations of the currency happening in Egypt, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka, as you’re kind of aware of to that extent. But I think the overall growth trajectory on constant-currency terms is pretty strong in terms of what we see.

And the other thing which is there is that one, definitely there has been some softening of prices. But as an organization, we focus on operational efficiency is very, very strongly and also look at formulation and sourcing efficiencies, which is a large component, which we try to bring a strong kind of efficiency in our overall kind of input cost to that extent and that has also contributed to our margin fees which is both quarter-on-quarter as well as what we see from a point-of-view of a year-on-year basis, to that extent. So these are strong kind of signals which are possibly coming in terms of giving a hint in terms of what lies ahead as we kind of go ahead.

In terms of obviously the dividend payout. There has been a constant strong upward journey in terms of what you see and I think if you look at from an industry standard the payouts are very, very strong in terms of what we are making. And this time the payout is almost about 60% kind of a payout which is happening, which kind of just shows the direction of the sense that we would like to reward the shareholders in terms of the good performance, which has come in from a profitability point-of-view as we see this year kind of holding up.

The other thing which is very clear is, we are deeply kind of intertwined in the ESG this year. We’ve started this process of sustainability long back, but we have kind of now taken the ESG road very, very strongly and in all these areas of environment, social and governance I think there are very, very strong initiatives and imperatives, which have been put so that we are able to kind of really as a leader take very clear lead to that extent of market for a lot of you who do not know, we today have almost RE, which is the energy, which comes in for almost about close to about 60% to 65% is what is generated by us to that extent, for our plants and we are water positive, which means that the amount of water we take from the ground we generate more water per se to that extent, and I think this goes as part of our ESG framework.

I think governance is of the highest standards, which we try to build into that extent. And therefore, today, you will see that as the annual report comes in that all these elements are intertwined with the business in terms of going ahead. And it’s not like it’s a separate initiative. So if you are able to turn that ESG to kind of show you the way of profitability, I think that is something which really matters in terms of looking what you want to kind of do. As I said, freshwater replenishment in terms of the numbers are very strong. Similarly, the renewable electricity, the numbers are going very clear and our targets which we have taken for 2030 are pretty aggressive in terms of this thing. The new initiative of recycled material in packaging is another strong initiative which is being taken, which kind of shows that as a leader we are willing to kind of really put our money behind in terms of these issues and look at kind of letting it into the business growth as we kind of go ahead.

Obviously I’m sure a lot of questions will come on in terms of how we see the outlook overall in terms of looking at how we want to kind of grow. I think, the GDP numbers which have come out are pretty strong in terms of what is there. And we are all aware that when we look at paint, we speak of, 1x, 1.5x the growth of the GDP as a indicator direction in terms of what is there. So we feel for the year, definitely, I think the growth numbers look strong. We are focused on growth in a very, very strong manner as an organization to go forward. And this growth comes not only from the point of view of just competition or the unorganized sector, it also comes from the overall increasing the per capita consumption of paint in the industry. And that as a leader, we have taken a task ourselves. And also getting into newer categories, like we have kind of fueled the whole story in waterproofing in a very big manner.

So I think our focus on growth will kind of remain and we are looking positive with respect to how the year would pan out from a point of view of overall growth. Obviously, in terms of the monsoon forecast, there have been some question marks raised in terms of the El Nino and so on so forth to that extent. Now, that is clearly what affects the aggregation economy in terms of initiating the rural demand. So we will look at possibly coming to more definitive analysis on that as the year progresses. And we would know shortly in June and July what’s happening to monsoons. But I think overall we don’t see an outlier here in terms of something which can upset the apple cart going forward to that extent.

Inflation overall raw material prices appear stable. We might not see too many high peaks or low peaks kind of coming to that extent, and therefore largely they might remain benign with some spurts here and there, depending on some geopolitical conditions which might develop overall, but fairly kind of appears stable as a structure in terms of going forward. We focus our energies on architectural business, which anyway is the core, but along with that, growing the home decor business, growing the industrial business has been strong objectives with whatever we can do with respect to even the global business. So I think focusing on all-around work as an organization in terms of what we want to kind of really target and grow, especially geographies of Sri Lanka, Bangladesh and Egypt is something which we would kind of look at in terms of our international footprint going forward.

So that’s all. And thank you very much for listening intently to this. We are now open to questions. Thank you.

Questions and Answers:

Sunila Martis — Leading Investor Relations

Thank you for the presentation, Mr. Amit Syngle. Good evening, everyone. [Operator Instructions] We have live audience with us at the venue and participants joining on Zoom video platform and teleconferencing as well request a live audience to please raise your hands to ask questions to the panelists, we will pass the mics to you. Kindly introduce yourself first and ask your question. [Operator Instructions] Please begin with your name and company name.

Abneesh Roy — Nuvama — Analyst

Yeah, thanks. This Abneesh here from Nuvama. Two questions. First is on home decor. So when I see the strong performance of the real estate when I see that, that’s extremely strong, but when I see your numbers in SS and Sleek you have pointed out that the retail demand is big? So where is the disconnect there? And second, after so many years the margins in both businesses are extremely weak, almost no profitability. So what is the reason and what can change in three years? Because your guidance of doubling from 4% to 5% to 8% to 10% means that it’ll be extremely strong growth in terms of revenues because your core business is also growing in double digits. So where is the confidence coming from? Because if I see SS and Sleek, we are not getting the confidence. Of course, you have now diversified far beyond that. So is the confidence coming from those segments?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So, you’re right, what we have seen definitely is a strong activity in the housing sector overall, which is there, which is reflected from a point of view of our even the projects B2B business, which is coming in. If you look at closely the last two years, the kitchen and the bath business has done well. It has grown at almost about 30% overall growth to that extent, which is there. This year the bath business overall has grown at about 15% and has given us almost about a INR4 crore kind of profit over that number. Yes, the profits are lesser, but you must appreciate the fact that today our share in the business of Bath is in single digits overall in terms of what we see. We are competing with a larger amount of giants there in terms of what’s working, be it a Jaguar, a Paris, a Sarah Hindustan, a Kohler kind of companies which are operating in terms of that segment.

And therefore, today I think, we are kind of trying — testing out various strategies in terms of what can take us there. Similar in kitchen, the kitchen business has grown by about 17%, which is the modular kitchen business. It’s the components business, which has a certain percentage in the total business, which has come down because it’s like a hardware business in terms of what you see overall to that extent. And the modular kitchen business is in profits to that extent. It’s the components which has kind of come down. How we see these two businesses flaring up and what is our confidence coming from, is our chain of stores, which we have kind of put up now.

These chain of stores has come in the last three years now, and this is called the Beautiful Home Stores. As we spoke of about 50 stores are there now operating in April, and we kind of want to take this number to about 100 stores over a period of next two years as we kind of look at. We think that this is going to be a very big galvanizing factor where we are able to offer decor under one roof very strongly and able to attract the customer in a strong manner and really make the customer aware of the Asian Paints pro-S together in terms of the overall home decor area to that extent.

So I think we believe that given the fact that we are the challenger brand with respect to both the bath and the kitchen to that extent. I think, we are now looking more in control in terms of going forward and our basis of growing from 4% to an 8% contribution arises from the fact that we definitely look at our chain of stores kind of contributing in a sizable manner. Along with the categories of fabrics, lighting, furniture, fitted furniture also coming in very, very strongly to kind of amp up the volumes overall to that extent.

Abneesh Roy — Nuvama — Analyst

Sure. My second question is on waterproofing. You have become number one in the retail waterproofing. So want to understand when you had entered this space, say six, seven years back that time what was the construct of the industry? So who are the key players? What have you done different? And who would’ve lost market share if you could clarify there? Second is, when I see the B2B, obviously, Pidilite is a big daddy there. So now that you have cracked the retail part, would you go now B2B also in a significant manner over the next five years? And Pidilite has now entered paints — interior paint. So would you see that as a big long-term competition? And is it a bigger competition than Grasim from a structural point of view, because Grasim currently is not present in most of the adjacency?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

I like the way you asked multiple questions in one question. But I think when we look at from the point of view of waterproofing, we started this initiative about seven years back and we started from literally scratch and we developed indigenous technology in terms of looking at developing this business very, very strongly. In retail, the larger players which were there in the market was Roff, Sika, Fosroc and Pidilite to that extent. And over a period of time what we see, it’s not about just the share in terms of what we have gained from them, it’s about we have really enlarged the overall market by reaching out to more homes, making the awareness of waterproofing very, very strong. And the whole waterproofing area has been a boon for us. Because earlier the complaints on paint was related to the paint to that extent, but now what is very clearly happening is that we are able to take care of the dampness and the leakages because of the waterproofing coming in.

And therefore what we see is that we have really exploded the retail market and left the existing players far behind in retail because they were just servicing the demand and they were not doing anything in terms of inflating the demand to that extent. And therefore, we think that we are now far, far ahead of any other player in the retail market for sure, to that extent. And that has also given credence because of our very, very strong distribution footprint in terms of what we have used very, very effectively in terms of really reaching out waterproofing into every small town in the country, to that extent. That’s one.

And our progess in retail is more than any in the brand because they operate through a distributor structure, we operate directly with the retailers and therefore, we are able to kind of really train, teacher our retailers to kind of do much more business in a very strong manner. As far as projects is concerned, I want to tell you that we are almost the number three player in projects as well because there are very different set of players in terms of projects which are dealing. There are some multinationals there in terms of what is there to that extent overall. But I would say that we are now a very significant player in projects as well, to that extent.

As I said, we have entered admixtures, we have entered the repair range, we’ve entered the membranes range, and today we offer every other products. There are almost about 200 products, which we are offering in the waterproofing category, which are technical products in the projects regime. And I would say that it is another matter of two years we would become tops in the projects as market as well. So that’s the overall waterproofing answer.

The second area is, with respect to Pidilite’s entry in terms of the overall paint market. As I see it, overall, while they were in some segments of the paint, some of the exterior segments in terms of what they were present, they were present in wood finishes as form of eka and so on so forth. I think this is a more range completion exercise, which I see from them coming in. The products are at a very, very price economy level to that extent. There is nothing outstanding about the products which kind of come in. And what we feel is that it’s just a range completion, which is happening where they want to touch the market much before others do in terms of the new players coming into that extent. Actually, we don’t see any threat happening there at all to that extent because that segment is something which possibly is we are entrenched very, very strongly and we don’t see any disruption coming in that to that extent.

So we feel that possibly they might disrupt some of the unorganized sector, which is there to that extent because the price parity in terms of what they’re offering is at a very low level and they want to utilize their distribution structure to kind of really reach out to some of the dealers who would ask for paint coming in to that extent, I don’t see it’s a very significant kind of initiative which could kind of really ruffle the paint market anyways.

Abneesh Roy — Nuvama — Analyst

Sure. Thank you.

Percy Panthaki — IIFL Securities — Analyst

Hi, sir. Percy Panthaki from IIFL. Two questions from my side. Firstly on the margins, this quarter margins have already exceeded 21%. Your earlier guidance was that you would try and maintain around 18% to 20%. So do you think in light of these results, your guidance is, conservative and actually — you will actually do more than that going ahead? So that’s my first question, sir.

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

Okay. So I think, we are still maintaining the same guidance. We are not kind of really looking at saying that the margins can go up or whatever, because we still feel that the environment is not fully stabilized. Today, there is an element of large amount of deflation happening across — inflation happening across the world to that extent. The demand conditions are all toxic in terms of what we are going seeing. So we do not know in terms of from a point of view of overall price stability. While we have said that we are apprehending, at least for the first half of the year, some price stability should happen. We really do not know in terms of which way the overall — the raw material prices can go. Because you yourself have seen the amount of jumps which we are seeing in crude. It kind of varies, from something like 74 to 82 kind of a thing in two, three days time kind of a thing.

So we do not really know in terms of which way it goes. We would like to kind of still see it for another six months to see in terms of how the entire thing moves before we kind of really look at changing our guidance overall. But we are very confident that we should remain in this bracket. As we kind of go ahead.

Percy Panthaki — IIFL Securities — Analyst

Sir, just if assume hypothetically, if the prices remain stable where they are — if the input prices remain stable where they are, will the EBITDA margins also remain at Q4 levels or you think that they would still sort of go down towards your 18% to 20% band because you would probably increase rebates or you would pass on prices or increase ad spend or whatever other reason?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So, as I see it, it is very clear that we want to look at seeing that we can continuously kind of inflate the demand in the market to that extent. So today, the kind of overall price increases taken over the last one and a half years have been very, very high, to that extent. We will still observe the market in terms of saying that if we need to pass on some of the thing and take a decrease in certain prices and really rationalize some of the areas as we kind of go ahead, is something which we will see, which can really affect possibly from the margin level we are sitting in Q4 to that extent. And that is why I said we would like to remain in that 18%, 20% band as a guidance overall.

We are also looking at really ticking on the area overall in terms of our marketing and advertising in terms of what we want to do in terms of the — some of the newer segments in terms of what we are doing to that extent. Therefore, I think on a safer side we should kind of really look at being in that 18% to 20% range as we kind of go ahead.

Percy Panthaki — IIFL Securities — Analyst

Right, sir. Second question is, as you’ve given some sort of guidance on the home decor business that it’s around 4%, you want to take it to about 8%, 8.5%. Can you give some similar kind of idea on waterproofing what percentage of sales currently is waterproofing and how much it can be three years down the line?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So overall, we started waterproofing from a zero base just for your information, as I said. And today, if you look at from the size of the overall waterproofing market, when we overall looked at possibly the size of the waterproofing market was just about something like about INR6,000 crores to INR7,000 crores in terms of what is there. We feel that now the size of the waterproofing market has literally kind of gone up, given our ingress in the market in a very, very strong manner to that extent. And therefore, what we see is definitely from a point of view of retail, we are very, very strongly contributing to the overall business, which comes in retail in a very strong manner and also in projects. It’s very difficult to put a percentage to that because the overall segment itself growth is very, very strong in terms of how it is kind of going forward to that extent.

Percy Panthaki — IIFL Securities — Analyst

But currently would like waterproofing be close to a double- digit kind of contribution to your own sales?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

Definitely.

Percy Panthaki — IIFL Securities — Analyst

Okay. That’s all for me. Thanks.

Parag Rane — General Manager, Finance

Percy, just one clarification. I heard you mentioning 21% odd kind of a margin. So the band of 18% to 20% that we state as our range, our targeted range. The way we look at it is PBDIT before other income as a percentage of sales and not sales plus operating income. So to just get that straight and that is the expectation that we are seeing.

Mihir Shah — Nomura Securities — Analyst

Hi, sir. This is Mihir from Nomura. Sir, my first question is on 4Q. Is there any element of postponed sales from earlier quarters that were weak in the 4Q? And if you can give any color on how April and May shaping up? Is the growth — the strong volume growth that we’ve seen in 4Q continuing in the April and May months?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So, how we see it is that there is no element of postponement definitely. I think Q4 is pure sales of Q4 in terms of what we see as kind of come in to that extent. And as we had said earlier, Q3, given the fact that it was a longer Diwali base, which was there to that extent, and that is why possibly the Q3 growth were a little bit lesser because of the shorter Diwali season, this year and the demand not really picking up to that extent. But literally the Diwali sales literally dies at that point of time. It doesn’t really carry into the next quarter to that extent.

As we look at the current environment, I think, overall the demand conditions are good in terms of what we are seeing it. And we see that going forward possibly for this quarter, definitely, I think in terms of — we are really aiming at a double digit volume growth going forward.

Mihir Shah — Nomura Securities — Analyst

Thank you. Sir, my second question is a little medium to longer term on distribution. Actually, I recollect that in nine months call you had mentioned that you added the similar number of dealers or reach what you had done in the previous area in FY ’22, in nine months you added the similar number. So can you share what you’ve done for the full year? And what is the kind of distribution or dealer reach that we are thinking about for the next year and year, year after?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So what we see is that I think in the year gone by, we would’ve added about almost about anywhere between 15,000 to 20,000 dealer points going forward. And going forward, we are aiming at anywhere between 10,000 to 15,000 retail points coming up in the coming year as well. And that is going to be a strong kind of aim in terms of what we would like to do. And the larger focus still remains in terms of the smaller cities and the suburbs of the bigger cities in terms of what’s really coming. Because we truly look at that from a little bit of a cluster approach in terms of where we would like to kind of have an outlet in terms of going forward. So therefore possibly another 10,000 to 15,000 retail outlets in terms of definitely we are looking at.

Mihir Shah — Nomura Securities — Analyst

Sir, one last question on the unorganized players. I believe that over the period of last couple of years, we’ve seen a lot of formalization happening. We’ve seen very strong volume growths coming. We see that volume growth continuing. Can you talk a bit on the unorganized players, the regional players, how much have they shrunk? To what extent are they paint? Do you expect them to come back with the raw metal prizes now getting better, your raw material prices cooling off, your gross margins getting better, can one expect the unorganized players to come back in a big way?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So definitely I think what we have seen is in the first two years that the unorganized players had their volumes compressed because of their supply chains being not so efficient as the bigger players to that extent. And the raw material scenario was also causing quite a bit of havoc with the kind of inflations in terms of what we were seeing. In the last year, what we have seen is that there is some stabilization happening with respect to their supply chains and people are no longer regional. They are still kind of becoming national because of the ease of their supply chains now happening to that extent. We have seen possibly we used to divide the, an organized sector as 30% value and 70% as organized, to that extent. Maybe I think the last years we would’ve seen some movement of 4% or 5% kind of decrease, which is there.

Our belief is that possibly given the price advantage they still have and the fact that there are strong regional entities to that extent and are expanding, possibly, I think the ratio will come back literally to what it was earlier to that extent in terms of they covering the ground to the 3% to 5%, which they’ve lost out.

Mihir Shah — Nomura Securities — Analyst

Thank you very much, sir. All the way best.

Sheela Rathi — Morgan Stanley — Analyst

Hi, sir. This is Sheela Rathi from Morgan Stanley. Sir, thanks for giving the idea on the total TAM for the industry, which is at INR70,000 crores. How should we think of the growth rate over the next five years for the industry? And you just alluded to the fact that unorganized could go back to 35% in the near-term, but how should we think of that number in the next five years?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So, we are pegging the number going to almost like about INR100,000 crores over the five years. So the growth rates are definitely ranging between 10% to 12% kind of a zone as we kind of go ahead to that extent. So I think this is an industry, which will definitely grow given the fact that, we see possibly a stable government. We see government spending strongly. We also see a GDP of anywhere between 6% to 7%, which is remaining, and to that extent, which will continue to kind of fuel this market going forward to that extent.

In terms of shares, I think the shares would kind of remain in this zone because the smaller players, MSMEs come with their own strength to that extent. And I think it is always good to have the regional players possibly catering to the market in a strong manner. They have large government supports also in terms of some of the pricing taxation structures, which kind of come into that extent. Therefore, we see that from a point of view of economy products in that kind of a segment, they will kind of continue to kind of be in that market to that extent. But we definitely see this industry going to about INR100,000 crore as we kind of go forward.

Sheela Rathi — Morgan Stanley — Analyst

And my second question was, with respect to your presentation, where you’ve mentioned that we will pursue an aggressive strategy. So I just wanted to understand the definition of aggressive. Is it around expanding into adjacencies? Is it around being more aggressive with respect to distribution or do we expect some price cuts coming through because we are getting into a deflationary mode? So if you could just expand on that?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So aggressive means everything, what you said. Okay. So we would like to possibly — as I said, it’s not only architectural. We are looking at in terms of really seeing that we have differential strategies to grow across the country, whether it is in distribution, whether it is with respect to supply chain, whether it is with respect to our new products or whether it is in terms of looking at the premium luxury segments in terms of what we are launching or even waterproofing segment in terms of what is there to that extent.

When it comes to industrial, I’ve already spoken that there has been very big aggression, which we have been kind of taking both from a general industrial and the automotive industrial kind of a zone. Home decor, I have indicated the kind of trajectory we want to kind of follow from where we are to where we want to go to by FY ’26 to that extent.

Similarly, I think, in global we would like to kind of see that it’s not only in terms of the existing countries, if there’s any opportunity which comes, we will be aggressive in terms of going into a new country as well in terms of looking at going forward. And our aggression continues from a point of view of even the whole area of really putting strengths in the organization so that we are able to kind of supplement and kind of retain our margins strongly. And that is why our backward integration strategy is very, very important in terms of what we are looking so that possibly as we kind of go ahead, we are able to kind of take recourse from the fact that we are adding more and more margins to our material consumption story in a very big way. So I think aggressive literally means that it is in all areas. Yes, please. Can someone give him mic?

Unidentified Participant — — Analyst

Yeah. Hi Amit, and team. Thanks for the opportunity and congratulations for good set of numbers. Just two observation, in this quarter you have reported a 16% volume growth and also margins has expanded. So if I give the benefit, and I just wanted to understand, is this margin expansion is primarily because of the falling raw prices and packaging material? Or there is a mixed improvement? Because if your volume growth is higher than your revenue growth, I was suspecting the volume growth is driven by the more economic emulsions. So therefore, the question — there are two questions, what is the quality of margin, which you are trying to gather? And second, therefore, if you can give a broad number for domestic decorative in terms of premium emulsions, economy emulsions and low-end emulsions broad number? I know you will be hesitant to give me the exact number, but if you can help me on that.

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So overall, when we look at the margin story, it kind of really revolves around three areas. One is the material price is softening, which is very clear. We have seen a 4% kind of a deflation in prices, which we have seen in Q4 very clearly. The second thing is that a strong imperative on formulation and sourcing efficiencies, which is also giving us a strength in terms of really making our material prices lower to that extent, given the fact that you’re working on formulation efficiencies and sourcing efficiencies. The third area is, what we have seen is that the overall mix has been decent because while the premium and the luxury segments have also grown by double digits to that extent, we have seen some of the other segments which have grown far higher than that double-digit on an outlier kind of a perspective overall.

So I think it’s a combination of the mix being good, but some of the other products kind of really being an outlier kind of products overall coming in. So from a point of view of premium luxury, we see that possibly premium luxury are in double-digit, but the smart emulsions, economy emulsions would be slightly higher than the premium luxury in terms of what they would’ve contributed into the margins.

Unidentified Participant — — Analyst

So would you comment on FY ’23, what would be the broad mix if I check with you on the luxury premium?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So see, our intention obviously is that we stay ahead on a very healthy product mix going forward because the whole game of getting the margins in that band is dependent on the product mix in terms of the way you operate. Obviously in terms of it depends on the inflation in terms of prices are very strongly because the material prices contribute to a substantial chunk in terms of our overall kind of price structure as we kind of look at. So going forward, I think we are very clear that we are going on a very, very balanced kind of a growth where we look at furthering the luxury and the premium sectors very, very strongly.

But what you must understand is that if you look at the entire structure of really the product the bottom of the pyramid in the middle segment premium is a large contributor in terms of the overall structure in terms of consumption, which really happens. So while you would like to kind of continue to grow at the luxury and the premium level, you can’t ignore the premium and the bottom end in terms of what comes in, in terms of growth. So as I said, we will try to balance in terms of seeing that we are able to kind of take a very, very structured balanced kind of an approach where we grow possibly in a balanced manner across the luxury, premium and the economy segments.

Unidentified Participant — — Analyst

My second question on the industrial part, the growth rates were lower. However, you have shown the good margin expansion. Is it a function that it’s being competitive business, you have not dropped the prices and now we’ll be forced to drop the prices in industrial and the growth will come back?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So we have not dropped the prices. If you see the profitability, the profitability has improved of the — both the businesses to that extent. In fact, we have been one of the strong proponents in terms of taking the price increases very, very strongly whenever we felt that we need to take price increases because of inflation. I think, where the kind of imperative has come in is that we have looked at increasing our reach from a point of view of some key account customers. We have looked at depth going in the customers and focused in terms of the technical servicing part in a very, very strong manner.

We’ve also invoked our entire JV with the PPG industries and introduced some very, very superior products in the market, which are actually at the high end of the market, but they give very, very strong performance when it comes to kind of the technical features they offer to that extent, whether it is from a point of view of say, a heat resisting paint or whether it is from point of view of a epoxy or a chlorinated rubber in terms of what we offer in the market to that extent. So I think it’s a combination of superior technical service, the reach, the depth of quality of customers in terms of what we are doing and also very, very strong differentiated products, which we are now invoking in the market in a very strong way.

Unidentified Participant — — Analyst

My last question on the capex and capacity, can you outline next 15 months, which are the capacity which will get operational and what are the capex we are looking F ’24?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

Okay, you want to answer that?

Parag Rane — General Manager, Finance

Yeah. So, next year our capex plan in terms of spend should be in the region of about INR2,000 odd crores, INR2,000 crores to INR2,300 crores. The utilizations, the way we see it today, we are somewhere around the 75%, 78% mark. The brownfield expansion, which are ongoing, right? And we have a host of them ongoing. I think a couple of them will definitely come on steam as we go into FY ’24. So — and then the balance spend is beyond that year. That’s how we are seeing it.

Unidentified Participant — — Analyst

Parag, just you can help me what KL capacity, which will get added in F ’24?

Parag Rane — General Manager, Finance

So in FY ’24, we would probably add roughly about 2 lakh, 2.5 lakh kilometers to the capacity.

Unidentified Participant — — Analyst

Thank you. And all the best.

Avi Mehta — Macquarie — Analyst

Hi, sir. Avi, here from Macquarie.

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

You can sit and ask. It’s okay.

Avi Mehta — Macquarie — Analyst

Thank you, sir. Sir, two questions, I wanted to just better understand the margin comment. Now, was there any one-off in this quarter in terms of inventory, because I would’ve — there’s no low-cost inventory, but logically it seems that you’ve done a change in formulation, volume growth remains healthy. So demand environment doesn’t seem to be the concern, at least even in your comments. What exactly — is this more a comment from a medium-term perspective that over time demand might come off and hence we need to pass on? Is that why you’re arguing for margins to come down from current levels? What exactly is the driver for that?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So overall what we see is that, you should see that we have taken certain price increases over a period of time. And what has happened is that we have not looked at decreasing any prices in this quarter. So the higher price increases continued to that extent. Okay. And we had a scenario of material prices softening to the extent of about 4% happening. Over that — coupled with that, we had this whole area of the operational efficiencies, and also the purchase sourcing efficiencies kind of really coming in strongly. Because you must appreciate that when you look at the overall environment, the suppliers themselves are quite confused in terms of what’s happening because the U.S. and China economies, which are big consumption hubs, they are going northwards from a point of view of not knowing in terms of really, and the overall inventories are coming down to that extent.

So therefore the whole area of negotiation with the large vendors is becoming very strong in terms of procuring some efficiencies in terms of what you are able to kind of do. And given the fact that we never lowered our prices to that extent, and we were going and our product mix is quite decent in terms of what we’ve been able to achieve, that has really kind of given us the supplement in terms of the margins, which you see to that extent. And which is why I commented earlier that we would not bank in terms of just saying that this thing will stay forever, because one, you do not know in terms of what are the material-specific movements. For example, today we find that TiO2 is kind of going higher and some other solvents are coming possibly lower to that extent.

So you do not know the exact mix of the raw materials in terms of which way they will move to that extent. And also the fact that we are sensing that if today there are certain segments where customers are finding it a little bit more expensive to kind of really buy that product, and there is some down trading happening to that extent, we might look at possibly really adjusting some prices going forward to that extent. But the impact of this quarter is very clearly because of the price increases, which we have kind of gotten, and the material prices going down better negotiation of prices, all that has kind of really given us this kind of a margin and the product mix being still strong.

Avi Mehta — Macquarie — Analyst

Sir, so in your framework, if I understand it correctly, the way you are saying is I will essentially ensure a particular revenue growth should be there, and we will not necessarily focus on margins. Margins will be maintain in that ban, but I would look to drive as much revenue growth as I can. And that would be the thought process. So the flow through to EBITDA may not be in margin, but will be more in revenue.

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

See, we believe in balance growth. And if you have seen last three years also when I showed you the volume trajectory, we believe in not only driving only value, but we think that volume is a very, very essential kind of parameter, which gives health to the market in a very, very strong way in terms of how you want to kind of really look at growing the market because the only value component can come because of price increases as well to that extent. So volume is a true indicator in terms of the health, in terms of how the overall product profiles are going.

We believe in a balanced profitable growth. I would not like to compromise one on the other side to that extent, and I think that’s the right way to kind of look at it, because in a growing market, possibly, you can’t be siding with one side and saying that, I don’t want to kind of really look at the other side to that extent. And therefore I think the way to go is a balanced profitable growth in terms of what we are looking at.

Avi Mehta — Macquarie — Analyst

Perfect, sir. Sir, the second bit is on the VAE project in particular. Now, if you could give us some international examples where VAE is used, because one of the pushbacks that tends to come in is that, is this can be similar to — at some point of time, if you remember there was something called nanotechnology, which was being argued that could be a new thing in paints. How do we understand the way whether it’s a fad, why do you think it’s a very big change? So any international examples, if you could share on where VAE is being used or give us to better appreciate this technology? Thank you, sir.

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So today, if you look at VAE is used across the world. So if you take even a company like Sherwin Williams, which is the largest paint player in the world today, they have a substantial usage of VAE, which they kind of use. Because VAE is essentially a very progressive emulsion because it is, one, environment friendly. It is low on VOC. It has literally no offensive smell, which kind of comes in. And therefore it is the emulsion of the future in terms of what we see. Today, large quantities of this emulsion are imported into India because there are only four or five players across the world who make it.

Where our game comes in very strongly is that the moment we look at making this emulsion in India, to that extent, it kind of gives us very, very strong leverage from the point of view of costings and margins, which we are able to derive in our products to that extent, which gives us the capability of really pricing our products very, very strongly from a point of view of what we want to do in the market going forward, which we think today that the other players would be definitely forced to use this merchant, but they have to import this ion otherwise. And there is import duty component, there’s a freight component which kind of comes in.

And therefore, the kind of efficiencies it offers us is very strong because people cannot escape not using this emulsion to that extent because it is one of those areas which also imparts some special properties to the paint, which you are able to get at a very cost-effective manner when you use this emulsion. And given the fact that this emulsion progressive and environment friendly and literally no offensive smell, it is definitely an emulsion where people can’t really find an alternate in terms of just using it because that alternate will come at a higher cost.

Avi Mehta — Macquarie — Analyst

Perfect, sir. Thanks. That’s helpful.

Tejash Shah — Avendus Spark — Analyst

Hi. Tejash Shah from Avendus Spark. Sir, just one question, the kind of ramp up that we have seen on our retail touchpoints, what kind of ramp up we need on the backend in terms of depo network, in terms of feet on the street also? And then does it mean that our depo network also would actually go up or would have gone up in the last two, three years in the same pace?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

Sorry, if you could — there’s a muffled soil sound coming in.

Tejash Shah — Avendus Spark — Analyst

Yeah, no, the kind of ramp up that we have seen in our retail network, it also needs to be supported by depo network on the tracking. So, has it also expanded in the same way the way we have expanded the front end? And B, how — what percent, for example, this year we are targeting 10% retail touchpoint increase. Does it mean that the feet on the street that we have also needs to increase in the same proportion?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

Yes, so, what we have done is that, over the last three years, the overall hiring of the company has been fairly aggressive. We kind of even looked at the same thing during COVID times to that extent. And this year itself, we would be recruiting more than 1,000 people in terms of what we are doing, both from the campuses all across as well as the front liners, which would kind of come in. And this is almost 3x what we would generally recruit in every year to that extent. So, you’re right, because with such a large retail network, there has to be a ramp-up in terms of the people which are also happening.

And therefore, I think, we are definitely using large amount of technologies to kind of see that the productivity element remains in terms of our overall foray. But yes, the number of people are being ramped up and they’re ramped up because of also the backward integration, the home decor and other areas coming into that extent. So it’s an all round ramp-up, which is kind of taking place.

Tejash Shah — Avendus Spark — Analyst

And sir, on depo network, what will be the count if you can share, and what was it three years ago?

Parag Rane — General Manager, Finance

Depo addition. Number of depo.

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

Okay. So, I think, we would’ve added about 40-odd warehouses over the last three years as we see it to that extent. But I think more importantly, what we have done is that the size of the warehouses has doubled to now almost like 1 lakh square feet to about 1.2 lakh to 1.5 lakh square feet. So both things in terms of expanding the size of our warehouses, the mechanization of the warehouses, and the number of warehouses. So all around there is expansion, which is happening with respect to the distribution structure.

Tejash Shah — Avendus Spark — Analyst

Thanks, sir.

Latika Chopra — J.P. Morgan — Analyst

Hi, this is Latika from JP Morgan. My question was, on this volume value differential of 3% in the quarter, if I go by your comments probably we’re looking at industry deco volume growth of 10% to 12%, 1.5x to 2x GDP. Do you anticipate for the coming year, given you mentioned that the economy emulsions are growing at a little faster pace? And then, of course, even home decor contribution as well coming in, would this volume value differential will stay stable in your view? Or it could expand for the coming year or reduce?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So it’s very difficult to say in terms of — because see for each quarter the mix also varies. It’s not one mix which is there because when you come to the quarter two, there is also a stock pressure which kind of comes in which people stalk for the season to that extent. And when we look at Q3, this time we are looking at the longer Diwali to that extent, which comes in. So, typically during a Diwali season, what happens, the mix kind of varies from a Q1 and a Q4 in terms of what we kind of look at to that extent. So therefore, very difficult to say in terms of how the mix would kind of auger in terms of going ahead. But I think we have reason to believe that it should be kind of really in a certain band in terms of what we should kind of follow to that extent.

So it could be possibly anywhere between plus minus 2%, 3% in terms of what we kind of look at going forward. Unless obviously there is some other disruption in the market which kind of takes place. It is also a function of sometimes that if you are able to gain shares from some of the unorganized sector to that extent, then it kind of fuels the volume part slightly more to that extent than the value part sometimes to that extent. So I think it is very difficult to say that what would be the real guidance to kind of see the value volume kind of a stroke there to that extent.

But I think from our point of view, the guidance very clearly remains from a margin perspective clearly that we would kind of really like to retain that margin. At the same time, we would like to be, as I said, aggressive in all segments so that we are also kind of really looking at broadening the market and gaining share.

Latika Chopra — J.P. Morgan — Analyst

And any flavor on home decor segments other than bath and kitchen, how do this track on gross margins, operating margins, because you’ve given a FY ’26 revenue target, but any thoughts on how the profitability will basically play out over medium term here?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So I think for each category it kind of really varies. You’ve seen the bath and the kitchen in terms of the way it is kind of unfolding in terms of this thing. Typically, what we see is that, when we have acquired the lighting category the margins, there our EBITDA is kind of close to about 18% to 20% kind of a zone, which comes into that extent. And when you look at possibly the furnishing business, that would be in the range of about 10% to 14%. So, it would kind of vary from category to category depending on, one, the innovation, the spread, the kind of range in terms of what you are kind of dwelling to that extent. But I think over a period of time, definitely, we would see that this category should be settling anywhere between 10% to 14% kind of a zone.

Latika Chopra — J.P. Morgan — Analyst

All right. And can I just check for FY ’23 on standalone basis, what was advertising to revenue ratio for the full year? Is it possible to share?

Parag Rane — General Manager, Finance

It should be about 3.5%.

Latika Chopra — J.P. Morgan — Analyst

All right. Thank you.

Sunila Martis — Leading Investor Relations

Thank you for the questions live audience. We now move on to the participants joined via Zoom video platform. Our first question is from Mr. Chirag Shah. Please limit your questions to only two. Kindly say your name and company name, please unmute yourself.

Chirag Shah — CLSA — Analyst

Sure. Thank you very much. This is Chirag Shah from CLSA. Amit, my question is going back to the home decor business, as we scale up this business and the business becomes far bigger, is there a merit in simplifying the corporate structure over here? And what is the kind of capital that we need to deploy to scale up to the ambition that we have? Are we also expecting more categories to get launched here? And also a little bit, if you can share the growth plans in the White Teak business in particular? And on Beautiful Homes, we are right now catering only to 11 cities, but as we plan to double the number of stores, how many cities do we plan to sit? Just trying to get a sense of where the market goes in terms of the geographical expansion.

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

Okay. Just to factually correct you, the Beautiful Homes service platform is in 11 cities. The Beautiful Home stores are in much larger number of cities, almost about 30-odd cities in terms of what we see. So I think, both the framework will keep on expanding as we kind of go ahead. And as I spoke of going from 50 to 75 to 100 stores, I think we will definitely have a footprint of about being over in about 50 to 60 cities, where the home — Beautiful Home store network is going to be there to that extent. So when we look at this thing in terms of categories, especially, I think we are very buoyant in terms of categories like the fabrics, the lighting, the doors, and windows uPVC business.

We are looking at literally exponential growth, upwards of 50% in some of these categories, which we will focus on as we kind of go ahead. As I said, some of these categories are also very, very profitable and very strong from a point of view of design kind of commanding a certain price. As you kind of go ahead to that extent. We have already added categories like rugs, flooring, bedsheets in terms of the overall business, in terms of going forward to that extent. There is — already, we are working on a very big category, which is called the fitted furniture, which is there to that extent apart from the furniture, which is there to that extent.

And in future, we would not mind adding any other categories which could kind of really be attractive overall. But we think that today we have harnessed actually most of the categories in terms of the home decor business, which are there to that extent. And therefore we think, currently, we would like to kind of have some consolidation in terms of really seeing that we are looking at it. We’ve also launched tiles which are there, which is part of the home decor segment to that extent. But we are not kind of going for very aggressive volumes in terms of the tiles, but we are looking more the designer and the high-end tiles, which are kind of coming in as a range completion in terms of our overall home decor business. So I think that is something, which is the intention in terms of how we would like to kind of grow this.

As a structure, right now we have kind of put all this under a particular home decor structure, which is there to that extent so that we can leverage all our kind of skills in design, designers structure who kind of operate and our own leveraging of that architects designers in a very, very strong manner. So currently it is a structure which is possibly, we are trying to put where there is some overlap of the paint business, which is there. But as we kind of move forward, this structure will possibly see whether we merge this structure into the full structure or whether we kind of really make it more sharper is something which we are seeing as the business progresses.

Chirag Shah — CLSA — Analyst

Sure. And on the White Peak part and the furnishing business, what is the expansion that we expect on White Peak? And in furnishing, will it be largely distribution-led business? And if that is the case, is there a scope to significantly expand faster?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So overall, when we see, from a point of view of furnishing, when we took over the business, the — it had only about 100 retail points. Now we have 900 retail points in two years. So that is the way the — we have expanded the business. And it is just not a distribution story, it is also a story of design where you kind of give very, very designer stuff. So we have a Sabyasachi range of furnishing, which is there. There is a pure concept range of furnishing, which comes at even a price of INR6,000 a meter to about INR9,000 meter, which is really the high end of the market. So therefore, we are looking at segmentation within that kind of market in a strong manner, and it’s not a pure play distribution in terms of what we are looking to that extent.

But as I said that we are now in the furnishing market become number two player already in the market in a short span of two years to that extent. We will continue to the imperative of saying that not only we look at distribution, but we look at possibly the design, the quality of the cloth and other parameters which come in so that we can offer a very, very strong range to the customer in India in terms of what possibly the customer demands. As far as the lighting is concerned, we have ended this year at INR109 crores. We are angling for definitely a 50% plus growth kind of a thing in terms of what we want to kind of take on this segment. This segment according to us is about closer to about INR1,100 crores as a market in terms of the overall segment.

And therefore we think that there is enough scope to kind of grow profitability in terms of — profitably in this segment because a lot of this lighting is imported from China today in the Indian market, which is of a certain quality to that extent, and therefore there is enough scope to kind of grow in the White Teak lighting segment as well.

Chirag Shah — CLSA — Analyst

Got it. My last question is on the backward integration, if you can just give an update on the backward integration facilities that we are expecting in white cement, VAE, and monomer? And Parag, does the INR2,300 crore number include this backward integration related capex as well and how much?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So yes, that number includes because you must appreciate that the funding takes place over the next two to three years timeframe to that extent. So this funding, which Parag spoke of includes that kind of funding, which is happening both from a VAM VAE perspective, which is a plant which is coming up. And also the cement plant, which is coming up in Dubai Fujairah to that extent. Apart from that, we have anyway expanded into some other elements of backward integration as well to that extent, which is already implemented to the — in our plants at the moment.

Chirag Shah — CLSA — Analyst

Sure. Thank you very much and all the best.

Sunila Martis — Leading Investor Relations

Thank you for your question, Mr. Chirag Shah. We now move on to the next participant, Mr. Manoj Menon. Please unmute yourself and introduce with your name and company name.

Manoj Menon — ICICI Securities — Analyst

Hi, Amit and team. Excellent performance given the market context. This is Manoj Manon from ICICI Securities. Sir, actually, my questions are not really pertaining to the quarter. One question which investors do highlight to us or rather ask us is, how do you actually define volumes? Is it tonnage or, is there a formula which you apply?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So, the volume basically is a conversion in terms of the specific gravity of the material in terms of which we look converting it into liters. So today, whatever we sell in value terms, there’s a conversion, which takes place into defining it as a liter to that extent, and that kind of constitutes what we see as a volume. So therefore, in a way, the volume is linked to the value in a strong manner in terms of how it emanates.

Manoj Menon — ICICI Securities — Analyst

Understood. So is it fair to say that let’s say when you sell a putty at a INR20 per kilo versus the top end of, let’s say, paint at maybe INR800 per litter, I mean, give or take kind of kilo versus liter is maybe 0.9. Is it fair to say that the formula which you use takes care of this significant, let’s say delta in terms of 40x in terms of your low-end to the high-end product which you sell?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

No, see, each volume, which kind of comes in is basically related to the value in that sense to that extent, because what will happen in terms of, say a category like distemper. When we look at distemper, basically, it has a certain specific gravity ratio which kind of comes, which qualifies it into a certain volume zone, to that extent. What we look at is, there is no formula which is used to kind of really bring everything to the same base, to that extent. If there is a waterproofing product, it has a certain volume which is kind of coming in because of the overall thing, and it’ll have a certain value contribution, which would be possibly lesser than the value contribution of a luxury product, which would be there to that extent.

So there is no one formula which binds everyone to bring it into a certain zone that the same formula is applied towards that. It’s a pure play volume, which kind of comes of that category to that extent, which adds to the overall volume in terms of what we project at a overall level in terms of what is there. And why we feel it is comparable, because each company has the same product range today in the paint industry. So there is no industry in the paint, which does not have a putty, does not have a primer, does not have a distemper, or does not have waterproofing. So therefore, I think, when people speak of volumes overall to that extent, it is by and large comparable in terms of what really people are speaking of in the industry.

Manoj Menon — ICICI Securities — Analyst

That’s very fair. So basically what I understood is it’s not necessarily a value-weighted volume, it’s actually a volumetric volume. Understood, sir. If at all, there’s something I’ll take it offline. Understood. And only second last question is, it’s a brilliant work which you’ve done in waterproofing, and I think there is no question on other sales, maybe some comments on other sales also would be helpful on some good work you have done there. On building lot many more businesses outside of paints two questions actually, the quantitative part is all for us to see. Qualitatively, let’s say, how are you managing complexity? I know that’s like an omnibus question, with so many categories.

And secondly, some of the new businesses which you have looking to ramp up also has got a retail pinch to it. Right. Now you have been a product company for a long time, how are you managing that transition, at least in some of the businesses from, let’s say, product to retail?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

Okay. See, I can only kind of give you a little bit of — so we started waterproofing about seven years, eight years back now to that extent, and because of our indigenous technology, we really grew the waterproofing business because actually waterproofing business is a very, very technical business where historically people like Sika, Fosroc, and some of these companies have been as multinationals at the helm of affair to that extent. Similarly, when we look at a category like adhesive, which we started about six years back, and now we are clearly the number two player with respect to the adhesives category to that extent. Or we look at possibly we started the whole zone of wallpapers or the painting tools, which have kind of come in.

In each of these categories what we have clearly seen that these are not like standalone categories where we will have to put a separate structure to kind of take care of it. We have largely tried an integration approach that the current business is able to kind of sustain that kind of new category which we are introducing with possibly the same set of people who are catering and reaching the same places where possibly paint is reaching to that extent. So the area what we have looked at possibly going forward in terms of the new categories is largely an integration where either the integration takes place at the retail point or the integration takes place at a consumer point to that extent.

And therefore, possibly from a structure point of view, it has not added principally to the structural cost, which possibly any new category would have added to that extent. And therefore, possibly the resilience in terms of why we are able to grow these categories very strongly. Are you there, Manoj? Still, I think he’s cut off. Maybe he was satisfied with the answer.

Manoj Menon — ICICI Securities — Analyst

No, no. I couldn’t unmute. I’m sorry. Hello?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

Yes, Manoj.

Manoj Menon — ICICI Securities — Analyst

No, no, I’m very much there actually. So thank you, sir. It is very much clear in terms of both — sir one request actually, which I would be doing with all the listed pain companies from this quarter onwards. Will it be feasible to follow the template, let’s say when Indigo started a couple of years back off reporting segmental at least the revenue part is not the profits, it’s a request, which comes from let’s say consensus investing side.

R.J. Jeyamurugan — Chief Financial Officer and Company Secretary

Yeah, so Manoj, we’ll come back on that. I don’t want to comment now.

Manoj Menon — ICICI Securities — Analyst

Sure.

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So you’ve heard the CFO say what he wants to say on that. I have no power as a CEO to say anything on that.

Manoj Menon — ICICI Securities — Analyst

Thank you. Good performance, great luck, sir. Thank you.

Sunila Martis — Leading Investor Relations

Thank you for your question, Mr. Manoj Menon. We now move on to the live audience for one last question.

Abneesh Roy — Nuvama — Analyst

Yeah, thanks. Few follow on questions. So first is on the non-deco India business. So when I see your auto paints and your industrial paints, last year your margins were fairly similar at 6%, but this year the gap is almost 450 bps, which was difficult to understand if you could explain that? Second is you’re given the size of industrial at around INR1,000 crores, how much would be the auto paints also? Third is the leader in auto paints Kansai two days back said that they’ve gained market share in all the verticals of auto paints, four wheeler, two wheeler, EVs, and the commercial vehicles also. So if you could tell us with your relationship or partnership with PPG, what has been the gains in the last six, seven years post the relationship being more formalized?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

Okay. Let me answer the first part you said, you’re asking about margins were…

Abneesh Roy — Nuvama — Analyst

450 gap in margins between auto and industrial this year, last year both were at similar margins.

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

Yeah. So, see one of the reasons I explained earlier why the margins have kind of really increased here is the fact that we have become very, very strong with respect to taking certain price increases in the market, which we were not possibly taking earlier. And this has come on the behest of our superior offerings, which are there in the market from a point of view of differentiated offerings, which we are able to kind of given the market to that extent. As I explained that if I am giving a floor coating, the floor coating will come with some additional parameters and therefore it’ll be of a certain higher price as compared to competition in terms of what we are able to put up. And this is also led by our technology, which comes from PPG to that extent, which — what we have been kind of doing.

So from a overall point of view, both businesses, whether it is the auto OE business or it is the general industrial businesses, we have been able to, one, take very, very progressive price increases with respect to our range. Second, I think the differentiated products are giving us a very good opportunity to price and differentiate certain of our products much higher than competition, which has led to this kind of overall profitability, which has kind of come into that extent. And third, I think there has been a strong amount of work at the R&D level in terms of looking at really working around the formulations to see that we are able to kind of increase our margins in a very, very strong manner to that extent.

So I think these are the components which possibly have kind of inflated the industrial kind of volumes for us in a very strong manner.

Abneesh Roy — Nuvama — Analyst

No, sir, your auto paint margins are better because those are 450 bps ahead of industrial. So when you are saying R&D has had or whatever differentiated, is it only in auto that you’re doing differentiated?

Parag Rane — General Manager, Finance

So, Abneesh, another part to that question is also the fact that auto margins were always better than the general industrial. In the previous year, given the nature of the business, which is more B2B, the price increases actually come with a significant lag in the auto business and therefore you had a much larger inflationary impact on the auto business.

Abneesh Roy — Nuvama — Analyst

And size of auto business. And if you could talk about the market share again in the last seven, eight years?

Parag Rane — General Manager, Finance

So the INR1,000 crores that we reported is on the non-auto business purely, it doesn’t include any auto. The auto business is the second JV where about one-third of the business is from the four-wheeler OEMs. Another one-third is from the two-wheelers, another commercial vehicles, and one-third is from the refinished segment.

Abneesh Roy — Nuvama — Analyst

Sure. Last question on Indonesia, six, seven years back, there were big plans, would you say where you are currently, you’ll be usually disappointed? And is that disappointment because of the GDP because most companies in Indonesia are disappointing? Or would you be saying that you are in the right path because of the covid or whatever issues things got a bit delayed?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

No, definitely, I think Indonesia has been a disappointment for sure, because I think the trajectory in the last three years has not been good at all in terms of what we anticipated in the market to that extent. Not billing the fact that other companies how they’re doing, but I think we see ourselves very clearly that when you are at a single-digit market share and we have not been able to grow the market very aggressively. So we are putting adequate measures in terms of saying that we give ourselves some time in terms of seeing how we need to kind of galvanize that business and take it ahead to that extent. I don’t think so, I have to blame the economy for doing it because when you are at a low market share, then it is not the economy, but is your own strength in terms of doing what we can do in that market to that extent.

So I think there’s a way to go in that market, definitely. What we have been definitely able to do is prune the losses a little bit in terms of what we were earning there. But having said that, I think the larger growth strategy has to kick in in terms of possibly seeing that that business becomes worthwhile as we kind of go ahead.

Abneesh Roy — Nuvama — Analyst

But as of now, you don’t think you have the model, right? Because you don’t talk about it and you are still saying that, you’ve cut the losses rather than you have the strategy to scale up the revenue?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

No, there is a strategy which is in place, which is there. It’s just that some parts of the strategy have not gone in the way in terms of we would’ve liked. For example, we tried to possibly see the entire lay of the land because in Indonesia, if you see there are islands which are spread all across the country to that extent. We decide did approaching everything at one shot, which possibly did not give us the leeway. Now we are looking at a far more concentrated strategy in terms of key strategic places in Indonesia, and that’s something which we have to follow. So — but there is definitely a strategy in place because without strategy then we would’ve winded up far earlier to that extend.

Abneesh Roy — Nuvama — Analyst

Sure, thanks.

Sunila Martis — Leading Investor Relations

Due to time constrained we will be ending the Q&A session right now. We thank all the audience for all their questions. May I now request Mr. Amit Syngle for disclosing remarks?

Amit Syngle — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

Okay, great. I think it was a good session, I think of a long time we had one physical session with all of you to that extent. So thank you for coming and I hope we added some value in terms of answering some queries of yours to that extent. Look forward to meeting you in future and seeing how we can make this session far more stronger and attractive as we kind of go by. Thank you.

Sunila Martis — Leading Investor Relations

Thank you everyone for attending.