Tata Consumer Products Ltd (TATACONSUM) Q1 FY23 Earnings Concall Transcript

Tata Consumer Products Ltd (NSE:TATACONSUM) Q1 FY23 Earnings Concall dated Aug. 11, 2022

Corporate Participants:

Nidhi Verma — Head – Investor Relations and Communication

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

L Krishnakumar — Executive Director and Group Chief Financial Officer

Analysts:

Manoj Menon — ICICI Securities — Analyst

Abneesh Roy — Edelweiss — Analyst

Unidentified Participant — — Analyst

Jaykumar Doshi — Kotak Securities — Analyst

Sheela Rathi — Morgan Stanley — Analyst

Percy Panthaki — IIFL Research — Analyst

Amit Purohit — Elara Capital PLC — Analyst

Sumant Kumar — Motilal Oswal — Analyst

Richard Liu — JM Financial — Analyst

Devika Jain — Ratnabali Investments — Analyst

Presentation:

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to Tata Consumer Products Limited Q1 FY ’23 Earnings Conference Call hosted by ICICI Securities Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Manoj Menon, Head of Research, ICICI Securities. Thank you, and over to you, Mr. Menon.

Manoj Menon — ICICI Securities — Analyst

Hi, everyone. It’s a wonderful good morning, good afternoon to you from India. On the auspicious day of a celebration day today, thanks for taking time out and in joining this call. Now I’ll just hand over the platform to Ms. Nidhi Varma from Tata Consumer for the introduction of the management and for further proceedings. Nidhi over to you.

Nidhi Verma — Head – Investor Relations and Communication

Thanks, Manoj, and hi, everyone, and welcome to our call, and thanks for taking the time to join us today. We announced our results yesterday and published all the materials. So hopefully, you’ve had some time to go through them. But for today’s call, I’m joined by Mr. Sunil D’Souza, Managing Director and CEO; Mr. L. Krishnakumar, Executive Director and Group CFO; and Mr. Ajit Krishnakumar, COO. So in terms of the format, we will spend about 15 minutes or so, walking you through the key highlights during the quarter, and then we will open up the floor for Q&A. So for further proceedings, I’ll hand it over to Sunil. Sunil, over to you.

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

Thanks Nidhi. So if I can go straight to slide six in the deck, which is the executive summary. During the quarter, we grew by 11% on consolidated revenue, 10% in constant currency terms, despite huge volatility and inflationary headwinds. On a 3-year basis, this is a 12% revenue growth. Expanded our margins, EBITDA grew 14%, 13% in constant currency, up by 40 basis points. EBITDA margin is now 13.8%. India business grew 9%, 1% volume in India Beverages and revenue of 3%. India Foods volume growth was a bit soft as we took strong pricing in respect of inflation, which we are seeing in that business, but revenue up 19%. International business was up by 9%. Margins more or less maintained in the international business, gross margins. Segment margins in India expanded 20 basis points despite cost inflation in salt and significantly higher A&P. We continue to invest in our brands, while overall, as a company, we upped our A&P by 34%, India business was up 48%, and that showed the market share gains in both tea and salt. Innovation momentum was accelerated and we had several new product launches across all our platforms. And group net profit increased by 38%, led by higher EBITDA, most importantly, improved performance of JV and associates. We’ve also announced a new sustainability strategy in both with holistic goals and targets. I’ll move to slide nine, which is a summary of our key businesses.

Yes. So India Beverages, I talked about volume up 1%, revenue up 3%. India Foods volume negative 3%, revenue up 19%. U.S. coffee, again, strong pricing actions in line with commodity trends out there, volume down 3%, revenue up 20%. And as you will see, market share beginning to trend up there. International tea, volume growth negative 2%, revenue up 2% because all the pricing actions that we’ve taken have not translated into the market, given the fact that we deal with several large customers, but we’ve solved that puzzle end of last quarter and we should see better traction going forward. Tata Coffee volume growth, up 8% and revenue up 25% driven by coffee prices all in INR3,327 crores of revenue, up by 11%. Next slide. In terms of metrics, I think you saw flow through completely 11% revenue, 14% EBITDA, 14% PBT and group net profit up 38%. Most importantly, EPS is up by 38%, and we’re sitting on INR1,900 crores of cash. If I move to slide 12, just to give you highlights of where we are on our strategic priorities. We were on 1.3 million — we have committed 1.3 million outlets, direct reach in March, which we’ve completed, and we had said we are targeting for 1.5 million. Going trends, we might be slightly ahead, but as of now, we’ll stay with the 1.5 million. But most importantly, we said we have to now get the wholesale multiplier as we pump in innovation and A&P through our distribution system. Wholesale coverage is up by two times from 19,000 to 38,000 outlets, most importantly, also all our alternate channels are firing full speed. Modern trade is up 35%. E-commerce, which we had ended at about 7.5% of sales last year is now up to 8.2% and the two years CAGR is 73% very healthy trend. Next slide. We are continuing to power our packaged beverages. Overall, India business A&P is up by 48%.

Coffee is now growing very, very healthy for us, up by 73% for the quarter. But we have about a three to five share, depending on which geography you’ll take into account, and we continue to inch ahead on our market share in best tea. Next slide. On Salt, we continue to power A&P, but most importantly, we now will start ramping up our investments behind Sampann. We had always said that opportunity in salt is both on top of base Tata Salt as well as below. So rock salt and premium salts overall, I mean, grown significantly. And we had launched this new variant of Fortified Salt as a pilot in Delhi, doing very well with a few tweaks in the marketing mix, we will now be rolling it out across the country. Most importantly, our salt share is in the ballpark of 38% and continues to show 400 basis points improvement over last year. We are fueling innovation — the first slide, I think, is the critical piece where we are redigging our blends, the whole marketing mix across the country. But most importantly, 40% of the spice market is in the southern markets where we had not played seriously so far. We are now customizing both product and communication to match the southern markets. Just started our rollout in Andhra, Telangana and we will be shortly entering Karnataka, but way to go. All I would say is watch this space. Moving from coffee into cold coffee. We probably were a slight bit late to this season, but going forward, we feel very good about this product. Expansion of portfolio in Nourishco was another big thing, and we have launched Tata ORS on a pilot basis in specific markets. And internationally also, we continue to expand with the Sweet Tea Cold Brew in the U.S. now. We had — when we had acquired Soulfull, we had said we acquired Soulfull not only for what it is, but what it could be.

And we had said that is going to be the base brand for our platform in breakfast cereals, mini meals and snacking. Now that we’ve got the base business more or less tightened up, now we are expanding, this is our first of many more innovative launches, expanding categories in the platform. A blind taste it is a winner versus the market leader. We are already about five to eight share in about the last 60 days since launch in markets and outlets where we are present. Next slide. Himalayan, we figured that the share of equity and mind space in consumers is far ahead of our share of wallet and we have the opportunity to expand this into many more segments. So we are transforming Himalayan into a providence brand. You will see many more opportunities coming up for Himalayan, but now we’ve started with jams, preserves and honey, all sourced authentically from Himalayan — from the Himalayas. Next slide. The other thing in this quarter is, we have always said that we have a 4-plus one platform play, not elaborated too much on the plus one platform. I think by now, everyone on the call will be familiar with the fact that we have entered the protein platform. I would highlight saying that we’ve entered the protein platform and not only a product. In the next slide, the first category that we are entering is alternate meat. We have launched Tata Simply Better, off to a good albeit just 2.5 weeks old, and we see a lot of potential. Unlike many of the competitors in this space, A, we’ve got a winning proposition both in terms of the protein content in specific products that takes taste and texture feedback from consumer and most importantly, an ambient play, which then allows us to expand our distribution with far, far more than competition. Next slide. We’ve always maintained that while we will strengthen and accelerate our core businesses, we will forebonding our field of play. Our new engines of growth last year delivered 52% growth, this year, also continuing the trend quarter 1, they are up by 53%. Next slide.

We won a lot of awards in sustainability, but most importantly, slide 23. We’ve announced our new sustainability strategy. We’ve already put it out in public, better sourcing, better nutrition, better planet and better communities, detailed items under this detailed targets, these are stretch I would think achievable targets, which we aim to deliver, whether it’s supplier assessments or sustainable products in one form or the other in the product form or in the climate phase, Net Zero, water neutral, zero-waste to landfill and packaging or committing to diversity in the workforce. We have now very specific targets with very specific time lines, which we aim to deliver over a period of time. In terms of the macros, on the right-hand side, commodity trends, a little bit of softening, but albeit, overall versus last year still higher, Kenyan tea, which translated into a bit of inflation in our international geographies because of which we’re taking pricing. In India, Tea was broadly operating in a range, a small bit of a blip, I would say, with the floods in Assam mid-June to about early July, but given the broad-based trend of supply greater than demand in India, we do expect to start seeing the secular trend coming back. Coffee prices having hit a high of about 2.60 per pound some time back and now operating more or less range-bound. And given what we are seeing in Brazil, Colombia etc, which is where coffee prices are dictated, we expect them to be staying in this piece. Good news is we’ve taken pricing primarily in our coffee business in the U.S. to account for this. I’ll move to slide 28. Yes. So there are some of the businesses, India package beverages, 1% volume growth, revenue down because we have reindexed pricing in line with softening tea prices and a 40 basis point share gain.

Next slide. India Foods, volume was negative 3%, but just to point out that vacuum-evaporated base salt was flat despite the pricing that we have taken, and that has — I mean our overall pricing actions have translated into 19% revenue growth. Most importantly, with the new price hike that we’ve just gone in with moving our prices from 25% to 28%, we do think margins will be back on track. And as you see on the slide, we are continuing to hold on to market share gains. We are 400 basis points up versus last year. Next slide. NourishCo, very, very strong trajectory, 110% revenue growth, INR180 crores for the quarter. NourishCo, this is the first summer that they’ve seen since we’ve taken over. And like all beverage majors, as the heat wave — extended heat wave hit Northern India, we were also hand to mouth on capacity. And therefore, as we expand geography and portfolio, we see bright future for this business. Next slide. In Tata Coffee, extractions and coffee plantations drove revenue growth to 25%. Next slide. Starbucks again, you’ve got to remember we’re cycling a quarter of full locked down last year. But now we are at 275, 99% of stores have reopened within 30 cities, strong EBIT positive quarter for Starbucks, which shows the power of the operating Starbucks and therefore, the ability to generate value in the longer term. Given it’s a 25% increase in same-store sales versus pre-COVID, we do feel good about the business. International, slide 34. We’re maintaining — more or less maintaining share in everyday black in the U.K., but most importantly, we have put money behind A&P for Teapigs, which is our super premium brand and we’ve seen a 16% revenue growth there. And overall, the business delivered a plus 3% revenue growth. slide 35.

Coffee bags, we are now climbing back on share. Teas was a bit soft, but I think it will get corrected over the cycles. Overall, coffee revenue growth of 15%, primarily again driven by pricing. Canada, our star in the international market, continue to maintain share, growing specialty tea and overall delivering 14% revenue growth. I now hand over to L. K. for a quick snapshot of financials.

L Krishnakumar — Executive Director and Group Chief Financial Officer

Thanks, Sunil. I’ll just talk you through the financials. Starting with the consolidated performance. We see that revenue was INR3,300 crores grew by 10% in constant currency. Within that, the India business grew by 9%. And in the India business, the Salt portfolio grew by 20%, and the growth initiatives, which are basically water, Sampann, Soulful and the like grew by over 50%. International business saw revenue growth of [Technical Issues] Non-branded also had a stellar quarter because of coffee prices and higher volumes, they grew at 25%. In EBITDA terms, the growth was 14% higher than with an improvement in EBITDA margin driven by the India business largely by tea, but also overall on common costs. International business grew by — EBITDA grew by 9% and non-international business had higher EBITDA. Moving on to the next — on the stand-alone, just go back, sorry. On the performance, we saw revenue growth of 6% and EBITDA growth of 12%. Let me just clarify that the EBITDA, which is shown here is derived from the stagnancies where we’ve taken out the other income dividend portion and kept only the operating income to give you a reflection of true performance. So the underlying performance strong EBITDA growth. Moving on to the next slide. Again talking first about the consolidated results, revenue from operations, 11%. EBIT, higher EBITDA margin improvement. I want to point out the PAT number, INR277 crores versus INR241 crores. And then if you move to group net profit for this current quarter is the same as the PAT. That means the share of profit loss from JV and associates is zero at breakeven compared to a loss of about over INR40 crores last year.

This basically reflects the improved performance of Tata Scaba as well as amalgamated plantations which is a north India plantation that we have, both performed extremely well in this year. To the left on stand-alone, again, we have seen that operating EBITDA grew by 12%. But if you look at the reported PBT, it is sort of lower compared to the same period last year, largely because of dividend and investment income and within that, mainly because of dividends, we had a significant dividend flow from the overseas entities in the last year. We expect to have some of the dividend flow in the later part of the year. It’s also to do with the restructuring plans that we have, we’re hoping to complete with necessary approvals. So moving on to the next slide, which is segment-wise performance. Both revenue and EBIT of the India business is 72% of the overall branded business. And within the individual companies, we are now reporting India business on a consolidated basis because that’s how we manage different product portfolios within that India business. So overall, profitability higher than revenue growth of 9%. International business profitability in line with revenue growth. And Sunil sort of talked through individual parts. I think overall, we have been able to take price up in a competitive environment and maintain volumes. We have seen strong volume growth in the growth business part of our portfolio, which is what does Sampann and also Soulfull. Sampann performance was slightly muted because of certain reasons which Sunil mentioned, but we expect growth to come back strongly in the quarters ahead. That’s it from my side. We are happy to answer any questions.

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

Just a quick summary of what we’re seeing going forward. Inflation, volatility, I think, is a reality. We will have to keep moving plus and minus depending on where it goes. We will focus on driving and balancing both growth and margins. I don’t think it is either/or situation. We’ve got to manage both. Just to put it in perspective that if you look at the last three years, we’ve delivered a very healthy CAGR of 14% in beverages and 19% in foods. Salt costs where we thought the cost inflation was behind us and we had moved from 24 to 25 end of last quarter. ForEx moving against the Indian rupee and the cost of coal going by roughly 2.5 times to 3 times of what it was last year. We now moved the pricing from 25 to 28. That said, I mean, like, for me, the most big indicators in a volatile environment are maintaining margin and market share so that you continue to balance between all these 3, including top line. Our growth businesses are on a strong trajectory. You’ve seen the 50% plus. Given the lockdowns hopefully behind us, our out-of-home businesses, NourishCo and Starbucks should continue to deliver momentum. Tata Soulfull, strong momentum, triple-digit growth, which we continue — which we’ll continue to drive as we expand portfolio and enter newer categories for the platform. International business, we have taken strong price actions in the U.K. probably it is just about landing because it took some time to translate into the large outlets, but that also should be in a good wicket. The most important thing I would want to highlight is we manage the India — so we managed the overall business as a portfolio, and we will have puts and takes in certain businesses, depending on what we are seeing as opportunities or headwinds. With that, back to you, Nidhi.

Nidhi Verma — Head – Investor Relations and Communication

Thanks, Sunil. So moderator, you can now move to the Q&A queue, and we can start taking questions.

Questions and Answers:

Operator

We will now begin the question-and-answer session. [Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Abneesh Roy from Edelweiss. Please go ahead.

Abneesh Roy — Edelweiss — Analyst

Yeah, thanks. My first question is on Sampann and 2, three subparts to that. First is, in your presentation, you mentioned short-term impact of trade terms margin rationalization and realignment. So if you could elaborate? Second is at the company level, your gross margin is 43% and EBITDA margin 13% to 14%. Sampann I do understand currently will be — actually EBITDA margin will be much lower. My question is on Sampann, say four years down the line when things stabilize, where do you see versus the 43 GM and 13 EN at company level? And last part is the 5% GST which has been put on packagers, cereals, pulses etc, do you see a big benefit because of shift from the solar plant?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

Yes. So thanks, Abneesh. Let me take your questions. So number one, on Sampann very specifically in the quarter, we corrected some channel and trade margins. For spices, about 25% of our mix comes from online for pulses and spices about 40% comes from online. So we did take certain margin corrections to make sure margins are on the right track. In a business like Sampann, which is a high growth and probably, I would say, not low mid-margin you’ve got to make sure that the ballpark margin is right as you’re accelerating. So one is the trade margin correction. The second piece is, like I pointed out for spices, we are going in for a full relaunch of our blends and we are entering the southern markets with a completely different mix. So we did pull back our spices business to an extent to make sure that we hit the ground running when we come back new. And these are the two factors. But just to give you comfort on the Sampann business, it is a huge growth opportunity for us, doesn’t change. The total addressable market is huge, pulses what INR155,000 crores. Spices at INR60,000 crores. Spices is bigger than my tea business addressable market. So we’re fully cognizant of that. But we’ve got to play in with the right margin. So that is why we probably took a pause. So — but last three years CAGR, if you look at it, Sampann is still on a 30% CAGR. And by the way, July has still trended directionally in the same number. So that’s the reason why L.K. says he’s very confident of coming back to that category. So that’s your answer on the Sampann question. Number two, in terms of your — where could Sampann go. See, Sampann you have to remember, very, very high ROC for Sampann from a TCPL perspective.

So it does unlock a strategic question for us as we go forward. And it will be, I would say, high single-digits, low double-digit margin is a very, very long-term aspiration, but we have various levers to pull to get there. Number one is, as we build scale, we’ve got to flex our procurement [Technical Issues] Get better at that, including forward contracting, forecasting, all those pieces. Number two, we’ve got to get into distributed manufacturing because freight is a huge component in these pieces. We’ve just finished a piece of work in which we’re relaying our entire network. We’ve got to execute that, which takes a bit of time. And number three, of course, we’ve got to bring our technology jobs to bear because our R&D team now needs to figure out how to value add into these categories. All I would leave you on that front is, I think we’ve built a fabulous R&D team having invested in significant resources behind that. And in the next — I would hazard between three to six months, you will see some really differentiated products come in the Sampann based business itself.

Abneesh Roy — Edelweiss — Analyst

And that 5% on the packaged?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

Yes. Sorry. So Abneesh, you’re absolutely right. The 5% on the package pulses, etc, is — will play to our advantage. One is the compliance on the ground, but especially in organized channels like e-commerce, modern trade, etc, where I would say a lot of competitors were playing on the border line with a brand but not registered, so to speak. I think if the compliance is tightened up there, the premium that Sampann was charging vis-a-vis how do I say, unbranded, local loose or brands which were not playing in the GST space, I think that would reduce. And therefore, we would see more consumers moving into our products, because, Abneesh if there is one thing I picked up across the country, different retailers, especially Kirana stores, right? The point is if a consumer has picked up Sampann and taken it home, then guaranteed you’ve got a consumer for life. The catch is getting the consumers to pick it. So apart from the GST piece, you would also see us starting to up the A&P on Sampann, so that we start to get trials and therefore, continued consumers.

Abneesh Roy — Edelweiss — Analyst

Sir, my last question is on the masala oats. So already entrenched players are there. Saffola is very dominant and we have Quaker Oats also. So my question is, when you say 5% to 8% share in the current distribution, what would be the plan in terms of scale up for distribution and advertising versus Saffola over a 3-year time frame? And second is we have seen in food people are too niche too healthy. There is a limited opportunity. Case in point is, for example, Atta noodles, it has remained a smaller part. So just adding millet and when you are so niche, why should this product sustain?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So Abneesh, first of all, let me clarify, we are looking at Soulfull as a brand, and Soulfull will play in many, many categories. Some will be large, some will be small, but we will only enter categories where we’ve got a right to win. Soulfull, healthy brand, millets differentiator, better product profile and the value proposition should work. And thereby, this is one of the very many extensions for Soulfull that you will see. On a blind taste profile versus the leading competitor, we are a win because we are frontier, because we’ve got ragi there and, of course, the health portion dials up. Now you’re absolutely right. We’ve got to now up our game, both on distribution and consumer communication to make sure we get traction. But I was just trying to give a perspective that within about 60 to 90 days of launch, we are already at a five share in markets where we are present. Now like I said, Soulfull is our brand for breakfast, mini meals and snacking. This is our first foray into snacking. I would say watch this space as we enter many more categories. The whole idea is Soulfull overall, we are seeking to build a very large brand.

Abneesh Roy — Edelweiss — Analyst

That’s all from my side. Thank you.

Operator

The next question is from the line of Manoj Menon from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead.

Manoj Menon — ICICI Securities — Analyst

Hi team a few clarifications, if I may. One Sunil on the salt business. How do I look at the salt volume performance of the last couple of quarters? Is it just the high base of last year specifically? Or is there any other big picture drivers here?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So Manoj, let me just say the reason why salt pricing we’ve taken up is because of two factors: inputting costs. Number one is brine, but number two, off-late the more important one is coal prices, right? Brine more or less has been stable, but coal is what we did not see coming, if I may. And that is why we’ve taken up these prices. Now that said, both energy costs as well as brine hits every single competitor in the market. So if you look at the raw salt prices out of the salt pans in Gujarat, it is up substantially versus last year and therefore, it flows down the change. So therefore, you do — you will see — hopefully, you will see industry in overall moving up. That said, if you dissect the salt pricing, the strength of the Tata Salt vacuum evaporated iodised salt is so strong that despite the fact that between last July, where we were at 21% and as we exited the quarter, we are at 25%, the volume is flat. And we’ve been able to take up pricing and maintain market share, right? The negative volumes are mostly on account of traded salt, which there was a little bit of a hiccup up and down. But going forward, we should be able to correct that as well. But salt I think, Manoj, I think the focus is given the fact that we have a very strong 38% share, given the fact that we’ve got probably the best distribution in town on salt, and the fact that we were slightly late to the party in anticipating that coal prices will move further up. We took another price correction from 25% to 28% at the end of the quarter. And like I said, we take price corrections in salt, there is a down stocking in channels, because they do expect to go shopping around and find some cheaper Tata salt from some other trader, wholesaler, etc. I think we’ve seen a bit of that. But I would say this quarter, you would see stability coming back into the business. Again, like you rightly pointed out, it’s negative 3% overall total salt in volume terms versus last quarter — same quarter last year of 17%. And the other thing I would want to highlight is Foods business, FY ’21 Q1, 20% growth, FY ’22, Q1 20% growth, FY ’23, again, 20% growth. So if anything, I think we’ve been consistent.

Manoj Menon — ICICI Securities — Analyst

Fair sir. Fair, sir. Just two quick follow-ups only on the salt part of it. How do we think about the medium-term opportunity, let’s say, to maximize or optimize profit pools for you, let’s say, using price as a lever in salt. That’s one sub question. The second one is, let’s say, in a scenario of, let’s say, significant deflation in your input, let’s say, prices, it could be coal, it could be brine, it could be any of those, do you think that there is an opportunity to retain some of the, let’s say, input deflation benefits and expand, let’s say, the gross margins in [Indecipherable] without obviously affecting…

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So Manoj, number one is the reason why we have taken pricing up. If you look at my last quarter, if you look at the three big commodities that we have on India beverages, right, we have expanded our margins by 1,000 basis points to put it where it should be. So we will drive for volume from here on. Second is India Salt margins — gross margins declined by 500 basis points, and that’s why we took up the prices. International more or less is stable margins after all the price increases, right? So Salt, once we put the margins back on track, we will go for volume because we do think there is a share opportunity out there. On your question of as deflation comes in — the question is as and when deflation comes in, we will have to play very, very close to the year. I would like to keep some of the margins, albeit, I do not want to lose market share. I would want to continue market share. So again, it will be a tiered pricing approach. And if you look at the last one year, what we have done is now we’ve got the brands across different price segments. We’ve got a rock salt and a set of salt playing at the higher end. We’ve got now Tata Salt, the base vacuum evaporated salt, we’ve launched a fortified, we’ve got I-Shakti Salt at the bottom. And we’ve just launched Shuddh which we are learning in the pilot, and we will, again, tweak the marketing mix to expand it across various geographies. So we will make sure that we do a portfolio play, give value to the consumers while if possible, increasing margins consistently, but the whole idea is continue to gain market share. But you’re right, Salt is one of the big pillars basis, which we will continue to have fuel to expand into other categories as we go forward.

Manoj Menon — ICICI Securities — Analyst

Sure, sir. I shall come back in the queue.

Operator

The next question is from the line of Trilok from Dymon Asia. Please go ahead.

Unidentified Participant — — Analyst

Hi, good afternoon, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. Just to understand on food business, how are we, I mean, obviously we are entering into new categories in the [Indecipherable] and you highlighted about the protein sort of platform, what sort of internal targets are we thinking from a growth perspective? You already alluded to one of the participants about the margins, but what is the growth that you should be happy with. Are you happy with 20% growth that you guys are talking last two, three years?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So, let me put it this way, I think foods is going to be the big growth engine for us. Till now even right now if you look at it, it is overwhelmingly a salt-driven business and now Sampann expansion. We have added different levers to the whole business across including Tata Smartfoodz, for example, in which there is a full relaunch in process to start driving into that category. So we have very clearly identified the platforms and within those platforms, the categories where we will play where we’ve got a right to win, it is a big growth as a big growth opportunity, both in terms of size, as well as momentum of growth in that category. We’ve got a right to win and expand. So we have just for example Sampann we’ve identified dry fruits as a category. I would say in the six months, we have hit it out of the park on only online. The run rate that we have on dry fruits is probably rivaling some of the new startups out there and this is all within the last six months at the power of the Tata and the Tata Sampann brand name. So we will continue to expand. Foods is the vector big, big vector for growth for us. Sampann leading the charge, but it is also Soulfull, Tata Smartfoodz where there is a full marketing mix planning going on. And of course like I said, the idea is to continue to expand market share in salt. Are we happy with 20%? Obviously not, right? We will be shooting for higher numbers as we go forward.

Unidentified Participant — — Analyst

But just a follow-up on this between when you enter new category, is the gross margin and profitability and key metrics, because these all are sort of high unorganized categories, which obviously low margin profiles as per our understanding.

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So you’re absolutely right. When we enter new categories, we do a full-fledged analysis of what is the size of the category, what is the scale that we can get and what are the margins that we can get. Number one, you have to remember Sampann is a high ROC, I mean I would say significantly high ROC because there is almost no capital on the ground per se, but we are very, very mindful about two things: number one is wherever we are entering is incremental in terms of where we are entering. So all I would like to leave you with is compared to the base categories, we are incremental — in some of the things like protein, Soulfull significantly incremental and some of the categories that we are entering with Sampann incremental to our current base. So the directional movement of margin will continue to be upwards.

Unidentified Participant — — Analyst

Understood. Thank you very much. I’ll get back in queue. Thank you.

Operator

Next question is from the line of Jaykumar Doshi from Kotak. Please go ahead.

Jaykumar Doshi — Kotak Securities — Analyst

Yeah, hi, thanks for the opportunity. My question is on fee. When I look at three-year volume CAGR, it’s about 2.6%, which is much lower than 7%, 8% and 9% you’re tracking in the previous two quarters on three-year CAGR business. So is there a one-off I mean kind of channel destocking or anything in this quarter and how should we think about the volume trajectory, either Y-o-Y on three-year business going forward for rest of the year?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

You’re absolutely right. I think we’ve seen a lot of yoyos in the last three years, both on the price front, as well as the volume front in the tea business, but if you factor right, structurally still 1/3 of tea in India is unbranded. Number two is, historically, you’ve seen a 5% to 5% to 7% volume growth in the category itself. And the fact that we have not lost out our position in the category is shown by the fact that we have gained share in those — in the tea category. Now overall, this quarter, compared to same quarter last year, we’re cycling a very heavy revenue growth. But you’re right in terms of volume, it’s probably not come to par. I would say one of the reasons or two of the big reasons, number one is the stress in certain specific geographies. I would say most mostly rural across and the Hindi belt per se has been a bit of an issue, it’s not come up, hopefully a good monsoon should bring it up. Coupled with the fact that we had an extra summer and I would say proof of the fact lies in if you look at all the soft drink majors, and including our NourishCo business it hit out of the park with struggling for kill. I think people move to cold rather than hot for some time. That’s not an excuse for the business, but we do think, as we go forward, volume growth should come back. Now the other piece that I would leave you with is in our portfolio, our focus has been to grow the mass premium and premium because that is our share opportunity, but more than that the stress in the rural and the Hindi belts has been showing in the lower end of our portfolio and that’s the reason why you’re seeing a margin expansion of 1,000 basis points in the tea business. But now that the margins are back on track, we will be going for volume growth. In fact, we have just given up some more pricing in the North and coupled with our distribution drive, which is we are moving to top gear on expansion on to total number of outlets numeric reach and A&P cover. We do think we will get the volume growth back to, I would use the word par for the India business.

Jaykumar Doshi — Kotak Securities — Analyst

Understood. Could you give a little bit outlook on raw material prices given there is flooding in Assam whether the second flush which is where you do bulk of your buying, how has pricing trended and what it means for our tea gross margin going forward, will it sustain at these levels? Is there scope for further improvement or…

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So I would say essentially given the fact that we had expected this year to be a normal year, we had seen a downtrend in tea prices both North India and South India till the Assam floods middle of June were an unexpected event. That said, I think primarily the impacted probably about 30 days of cropping or so, but you have to remember one fundamental structural point in the India tea business, supply is greater than demand. And whenever there is supply greater than demand, prices will trend downwards. So therefore, while we have seen a blip and I would term it a blip for a short-term and you might see some impact may be for a quarter or so, but not as significant as the blip that you saw. I would say secular unit pricing trending downwards and then playing in a range. So while we do see a small blip, I don’t think we need to course correct bit time, there might be a small dip in margin. But like I said from last — from one of FY ’22 to Q1 of FY ’23, we expanded margins in the India tea business by 1,000 basis points. So we are in the ballpark of where we want to be. We will have some puts and takes. But again, it’s a fine balance between top line and margin. We don’t expect margins to be as depressed as they were during the COVID lockdowns, etc. Small blip, but something we should be taking in our stride and moving ahead.

Jaykumar Doshi — Kotak Securities — Analyst

Sure. Final quick one. When we visit the modern trade outlets in this side of the country, I mean they sell from used pulses and staples that essentially do benefit from the GST. So will that still continue, so recently what is essentially the definition of label? Can modern trade outlets and used sort of pulses and other sort of staple products without customer incurring GST?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So I wouldn’t hazard about what they can sell and what they cannot sell. All I can tell you GST regulation, which has come out is very specifically, anything that is packed before source or before the selling point has to pay GST. The only thing which is exempt from GST is one that is packed to order. So if I can use some Hindi out here [Foreign Speech] so then there is no GST, but that is not what happens in modern trade and online. And therefore, and I use the term, if there is compliance we hope to see advantage.

Jaykumar Doshi — Kotak Securities — Analyst

Understood. That’s helpful. Thank you so much.

Operator

The next question is from the line of Sheela Rathi from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead. Sheila Marico’s on media line from your side and go to with your question, please.

Sheela Rathi — Morgan Stanley — Analyst

Thank you for taking my question and hello my question was again with respect to the foods business. Just wanted to understand your strategy going ahead with respect to the distribution because you just said that you know on the dry fruits business, you’re seeing very strong demand on the online side, however, I feel that scaling on the food business will require a lot of offline strategy, which is on the JV and MT side. So I just wanted to understand what’s the strategy and where are we with respect to the distribution reach of Sampann as well as Soulfull?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So Sheela, absolutely right. If you really want to scale any of these staples, if I may call it, you do need to play the GT game. The reason [Technical Issues]

Operator

[Operator Instructions]

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So, Sheela, to answer your question, the reason why I alluded to dry fruits was in today’s world, the online platforms provide you a fantastic piloting opportunity. So that is why we launched it only online because there it is no one between you and the consumer. You are on the platform, you’re deciding the whole marketing mix, consumer sees it online and therefore picks it up. After that, if the proposition is strong, then you got to get into distribution and put into the stores where there is something called a retailer signing between you and the consumer. So now that we proved the proposition, now we’ve got to tweak the whole mix to make sure we are well distributed and given the fact that we are going to be touching 1.5 million outlets by September 2023 and hopefully we are already about at 2.7 million indirect reach, if you’ve — a total numeric reach if you count, I think we’ve got the scale to do it. In the staples category, it takes a little bit of time because you’re competing against lose even packed by the retailer themselves at certain points, but I think we’ve demonstrated with a CAGR of 30% of Sampann that we are capable of doing it. The idea is now to take the dry fruits proposition into the GT and modern trade for that matter and that is work in process. You should start seeing it come into some of the modern trade channels very shortly. On where are we with respect to distribution of Sampann and Soulfull, I would say, we’ve made significant progress for example Soulfull, which we acquired what about 18 months back at about 15,000 outlets, we are on a 3-monthly billing basis, which we — how we measure availability, we are close to 400,000 outlets. So very, very high and this is — and we are only counting direct outlets. So we’re in about 35% — sorry, about 25% of our total outlets and it would be a very similar number for Sampann as well. That said, I think the fastest expansion in our 1.5 million base, which we should have by March is, you should see the width of — sorry depth of expansion because I don’t think you will find too many more outlets, which will stock more teas but Sampann, Soulfull, Smartfoodz, that is what we will now seek to exploit.

Sheela Rathi — Morgan Stanley — Analyst

Understood. And my second and final question is again on food is with respect to the new categories, which we are getting into. Do we think that this is the right time to get into more and more categories, all first kind of stabilized the base business and reach a certain level of margins and then probably get into more and more categories. I mean, just wanted to understand your thoughts on that.

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

No, no. Absolutely right question and that is why I keep harping to my team that in any category, especially established categories it is market share and margin. As long as they are on the right track, that is when you start moving and start moving into other pieces, and I mentioned by beverages margins is back on track with 1,000 basis point increase. My foods — my salt business was down 500 points. We have taken 25% to 28% pricing and stabilized that. We do think we will not have hiccups on the way to maintain market share in both beverages and salt and that is why we are now moving into other categories. So for me it’s not a or game, it’s a and game. And Sampann, as a portfolio, has huge, huge, I would say under leveraged equity, if I may. We have not executed to the team and that’s why we are moving into these categories. As far — if you are alluding into protein etc, you are right. They will not be scaled categories today, but we do think it is important for us to have first more advantage, food has taken the ground that we are one of the leaders out there and build the entire platforms as we go forward. But we have the advantage of having — I would say strong brands, great team, good execution and stable margins, if I may, in our base categories, which will afford us to do that.

Sheela Rathi — Morgan Stanley — Analyst

Understood. One final follow-up here, you just said, great team. So, are we really hiring with — in terms of at the senior level — in terms of– because we are expanding into lot many categories or we are just maintaining the same team?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So, let me put it this way. I think we’ve got a very strong senior leadership team now. We’ve sort of expanded over the last two years. That is number one. The big, big expansions, which is happening in foods, we’ve ramped up the team significantly. Apart from that, we have ramped up the R&D team because we need to up the ante on innovation and how do I say, the scientific basis behind all these new categories. We are investing in behind creating very strong R&D infrastructure and resources for this team. We have expanded significantly in digital where we do think it will drive both efficiency and effectiveness going forward and now we’re taking digital into the next phase of data analytics, etc, including in our procurement scenarios, for example. So answer to your point is, we are adding across the board in spaces where we see either we’re deficient or we need to add as we expand categories.

Nidhi Verma — Head – Investor Relations and Communication

Thanks everyone. May I please request everyone to restrict their questions to one, so that we can address everyone’s questions. And given that it’s 12:55 already, if I could request to extend the call by another 10 minutes so we will hold the call until 1:10. Yes, moderator, on to you.

Operator

The next question is from the line of Percy Panthaki from India Infoline. Please go ahead.

Percy Panthaki — IIFL Research — Analyst

Hi, sir, am I audible?

Operator

Yes, sir.

Percy Panthaki — IIFL Research — Analyst

So your NourishCo growth if you just continue to grow this fast, I’m sure in a couple of years, you would be clocking close to INR1,000 crores per annum. So at that kind of scale, what kind of EBITDA margins can this business generate? That’s one thing I wanted to ask. And the second thing is on tea. We have done this acquisition of Lalghoda, Kalaghoda teas in Rajasthan, can you give us some update on what is the success of that acquisition in terms of what was the market share immediately after the acquisition and what is the market share today? And if that has been a good experience, do we plan to do such small acquisitions in sort of individual states in our tea business or that sort of is not something, which is of priority right now?

L Krishnakumar — Executive Director and Group Chief Financial Officer

So Percy, NourishCo, first of all, I should say it’s a fantastic business again from an ROCE perspective, right, because we are all on a third-party basis both in terms of manufacturing as well as distribution. We spend or we put our resources into supervising the sales and the marketing, branding, product development and all those kind of phases. So that’s number one. We clocked INR180 crores last quarter. So you’re absolutely right, it’s on trajectory to get to a 4-digit business very quickly. All I would leave you with is margins in NourishCo are accretive to quite a lot of my current portfolio. So that’s number one. And we had bought in NourishCo with that whole premise right given the fact that it was a strong business operating in a very small playing field, if I may, expanding both portfolio and geography would give us disproportionate growth that was the whole logic. So absolutely right. And we are full press ahead on that piece. That’s number one. Number two on your Lalghoda, Kalaghoda I would answer your second question out there. Ultimately it’s about creating value for shareholders, right? So if — do I put my money into growing Sampann or do I go and buy a small tea brand in a part of the country? I think that’s the critical piece and in tea what is that amount of money that we’re putting that we should be able to better out of an acquisition, than what I can do myself, that is the other question to ask, right? Capital allocation, if I may. From that perspective, I don’t think you’ll see us doing too many small tea acquisitions. I think our ability to do it organically, if we really put the money there, that’s number one. And number two, when I — if I pick up my choices of where to put the money, I think there is significant opportunity in many of the newer categories that we are going with. Lalghoda, Kalaghoda, I think that’s performed more or less to expectations, but is it hitting it out of the buck? I don’t think so. But I mean it has fulfilled the business case, more or less that we had gone in with.

Percy Panthaki — IIFL Research — Analyst

Okay, sir. That’s all from me. Thanks, and all the best.

Operator

Next question is from the line of Amit Purohit from Elara Capital PLC. Please go ahead.

Amit Purohit — Elara Capital PLC — Analyst

Yeah. Thank you, sir. For the opportunity. Sir, just one question on the salt food business you indicated price increases. So going forward, how do you see the margins in the food business? So of reverse clocking close to about in the band of around 11% to 13%, 14% margins? Should this price hike bring us closer to a double-digit margin or how do we see this for the year and going forward?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

Yes. I did allude to it. Gross margins in salt, if you compare it to the same quarter last year were down by 500 basis points, right? And the reason why we moved up the pricing from 25% to 28% is to put the margins back on track. I do think we will come back to a stable state once we put this pricing back. So this quarter, at least you would see the margins come back on track. There might be a little bit of ups and downs in the beginning of the quarter as the price settles into the market. But like I said, given the fact that the pricing is being taken because of cost increases in energy and brine which are hitting everyone in the market, I don’t think you should see too much movement on market share per se.

Amit Purohit — Elara Capital PLC — Analyst

Okay. And just one small thing. On the Gujarat rains, which have happened, I mean is that going to have a better competitive advantage for us, is the supply side for some of the competition is a bit inferior than us, it’s a every year phenomena and nothing much to read upon? Hello?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

The reason why the brine prices had moved up was because of the extended monsoons last year. Unfortunately, there are, there were some heavier rains in Gujarat in the beginning of the monsoon season and that’s why the corrections, which we were expecting to see in brine have not happened, but that said, there has been almost no movement up or down marginally if I may add this, I would say the picture will become clearer towards the end of September is when the final monsoons have retreated and you’ll know where we stand in terms of the net output from the brine fields. As of now, we are seeing brine prices elevated, but stable from where they were. The big movement that we saw was in coal prices because of which you have taken the price increases.

Amit Purohit — Elara Capital PLC — Analyst

Okay, thanks a lot..

Operator

Next question is from the line of Sumant Kumar from Motilal Oswal Financial Service. Please go ahead.

Sumant Kumar — Motilal Oswal — Analyst

My question is regarding NourishCo. So can you talk about the channel expansion for NourishCo and what is our target for next three to five years?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So NourishCo effectively I think we are if I’m not mistaken, about 350,000 outlets nationally. This is what we touched, which is a significant, significant increase from where it was. Sumant, I wouldn’t want to hazard a guess. I think ball is in our court as to figure out how high is high from about operating in about 25% of the geography of the Indian geography. We’re probably at a 70%. We still got a long way to go. So you could see continued growth on NourishCo for some time to come as we expand geography and apart from that, like I said in NourishCo, it is not only the base Tata Gluco Plus business, the Tata Copper Water is really, really scaling up apart from that we are in the process of launching — we’ve launched jelly in cups, but unfortunately in season we were out of capacity. Couldn’t really expand that. You will see the expansion happening now. In Fruski, you will find a jelly drink coming out. We have launched Tata ORS, we have launched Tata Nature Alive. The NurishCo business has put Himalayan back on track because of which now EBIT is positive. I think a huge amount of work done, but a long, long runway yet to go.

Nidhi Verma — Head – Investor Relations and Communication

Moderator, perhaps we can go to the webcast to take a few questions. So Sunil there is a question from Tejash at Spark Capital. He is asking apart from the inflationary pressures in salt categories, there seems to be a sequential contraction in 4Q versus 1Q in gross margins in past as well. Is there any underlying seasonality playing out here?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

I would ask LK to come in, but my topline there would be [Technical Issues]

Operator

Sir, sorry, we are unable to hear you.

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So normally you have slightly higher seasonality in beverages in Q3, Q4 and compared to a Q1, maybe there is a little bit of that. We’ve actually not — we don’t think there is too much pieces out there, but the salt cost pressures would have played a significant impact. And the other piece, I think the freight and logistics inflation, which has come in, I think we are seeing more of an impact of that in Q1 versus Q4, but that said, given the fact that we are seeing a declining trend on crude, we should hopefully see that piece starting to stabilize, if not inch downwards. But LK?

L Krishnakumar — Executive Director and Group Chief Financial Officer

Right, there is no material underlying seasonality. So it was really to do with inflation on I’ll call brine overall freight cost — freight costs as well. So no specific seasonality.

Nidhi Verma — Head – Investor Relations and Communication

And the second question from him is, the heightened A&P spend that we incurred was it to support the existing portfolio mainly or to support new launches?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

I think it was a mix of both. I tell you just as a point of view, if you look at we had initially itself our hypothesis was that we were relying quite a lot on the Tata brand name. So if you look at our share of voice with the share of market, which is the standard benchmark used in all FMCG categories, we were slightly behind. Now we have up the spends. Again, if you look at most of the FMCG majors, your A&S line advertising and sales promotion line, A&SP line compared to sales is anywhere between, I would say 6.5%, 7% to about I mean best in class is about the 10%, 11%. We were quite behind the curve. We have ramped it up. Even for the last quarter, we have upped the number to 6.4% versus 5.3% of last year. So I would say we are coming to par right now on a overall spend, but the spend is both behind base as well as new launches. Just that also mindful that we are not catering it across brands. For example, in tea, we are now distilling it down to four or five umbrella brands and therefore advertising in one variant has a rub off on the mother brand. We are leveraging Soulfull for breakfast, mini meals and snacking, so advertising in one particular segment will have a rub off, so efficiency of the spends is also something that we’re looking at closely.

Nidhi Verma — Head – Investor Relations and Communication

And the last question is, Sunil how are we tracking in market share in e-commerce and modern trade versus GT in tea and salt?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So as I think to Sheela’s question I had mentioned that the beauty in e-commerce is that it is only you and the consumer. There is no one else in between and therefore it is the power of your product and your brand and your value proposition to the consumer. We are still market leaders by far on e-commerce in tea and we are lagging behind on GT, for example. Modern trade is better than GT and e-commerce is better than modern trade. We are leaders in e-commerce and that again puts the ball into back into our court on expanding distribution and making sure availability is there in the outlets. We lag competition on numeric distribution by about 10% and our market share is off by about 7% to 10% again versus the market leader. The hypothesis being, if we cover the reach, we should be able to cover the market share, and that is why the immense focus on distribution.

Nidhi Verma — Head – Investor Relations and Communication

Okay. And the final question from Shreya. The timing is, can you talk about restructuring costs and their recurring nature in the past few quarters? When can we expect complete restructuring to take course?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

I think I would use the term that I use with a lot of my team. We are a work in process company. We have still not finished where we want to be. It is still not stable state. We’ve got a long, long, long way to go. Aspirations are very large. This quarter the restructuring — so in the past, you would have seen restructuring cost, because we had cut down layers in our teams. As we acquired some of the businesses, we rejigged the teams to make sure we are deriving synergies. So while long-term you will derive synergies, there’ll be some short-term restructuring costs to make sure the business is right sized. Last quarter, you would have seen it or previous quarter, you would have seen it with regard to Tata Smartfoodz. Last quarter, there were some costs and I think the picture is yet to be played out in terms of the entire international and India Tata Coffee restructuring that we have announced. we have still not executed fully because we don’t have full regulatory approvals. But restructuring, I think at least in the short term, you could see this cost coming out. But all I can assure you is that fundamentally, this is to right size and make the business much more effective and efficient, and therefore, in the longer term, it will bear phenomenal fruit. Before we put in restructuring cost, we always do a business case analysis, look at the paybacks, and then press the triggers.

Nidhi Verma — Head – Investor Relations and Communication

Moderator, given the quantity of time, we will just take two last questions, please.

Operator

The next question is from the line of Richard from JM Financial. Please go on.

Richard Liu — JM Financial — Analyst

Hi, thank you for taking my question. Sir, two questions here. For a category like salt and considering all the value-added and premiumization initiatives from your end, what could be the growth rate of this category like let’s say five to seven years out, versus your say estimated INR2,400 crores, INR2,500 crores turnover in this business. Do you see this business at like, let’s say, INR4,000 crores to INR5,000 crores in the next five to six years’ timeframe given how it’s been growing and what could be the risks in this kind of an assumption?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

Richard, I wouldn’t hazard a guess on INR4,000 crores, INR5,000 crores, it will get to that, but the timeframe, I think is a matter of time that’s number one. I would say I would continue to shoot for expanded market share, expanded price realization and continued expansion of the portfolio as we go forward, right. We — just to give you a perspective, we were a 30 share exactly two and four months back when we took over the portfolio, we are at 38 share now. And we continue to expand the market share. So double-digit revenue growth I think is a given.

Richard Liu — JM Financial — Analyst

Okay. Overall sufficiently long period of time you think double-digit revenue growth?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

Oh, yes, yes, yes. So that I can assure you that I think we can put enough pressure on all our teams to make sure we are continuing to deliver double-digit growth for some time to come.

Richard Liu — JM Financial — Analyst

And what do you think could be a risk to that double-digit assumption?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

I think basically, Richard, in salt is I think the ball is in our court on execution. I don’t think it is as much we are in 38 share number one. Number two, we have levered the entire or layered the entire value proposition right from entry salt right out of premium salt. So we have the ability to pull levers across various price points, but we are offering a full portfolio. It’s a question of there might be subtle shifts in consumer preferences. We’ve got to play to that. I do think we are at slightly ahead of the curve on that piece, including the 30% lower sodium salt, for example, or some of the new launches, which you will see in the next 30, 60 days. I actually think the risk is in our ability to execute.

Richard Liu — JM Financial — Analyst

Got it. Sunil, and while on that, one more on Sampann. You talked about trade realignment and change in terms of trade and margin etc. How much would this exercise boost your company business margin by? And against that, how does this impact ROCE for the trade partners?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

I wouldn’t comment on the ROCE for the trade partners, Richard. I think it’s a calculation they have to do. All I can say Sampann is a very, very high ROCE business for me, and in Sampann I think we’ve got to be mindful about the fact that you’ve got to maintain a healthy margin, while continuing to press the accelerator on topline. In various other staple categories, you have seen in the initial phases of category development, you will have a lower margin, which you got to figure out ways to build it as you go forward. So that is where we are. I would think we have put Sampann back onto margin profile where we would want it to be. Is it the best of places to be? No. I think it’s still got way to go, but again like I said, we need to get back to the 30%, 35% plus CAGR on the topline and it will be a periodic, I keep using this term with Nidhi, it’s snake in a tube, right? You will have yoyos but directionally, it will keep pointing upwards.

Richard Liu — JM Financial — Analyst

And sorry, just last one. So this trade realignment and the boost in the Sampann margin. I mean this was necessity for you to get to that high single-digit and low-double digit, long-term spices margin that you talked about?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

I would say spices, we are in a comfortable position. It is the pulses and besan category, which we corrected. And I would say mid plus single digit, mid to high single digits margin is where we have landed up. It was getting slight bit of erosion and Richard I am not a fan of going to very low margins, very low EBITs and going for high top lines because after that correcting it is a huge problem. I am a more proponent of go full fledged on top line for some time with decent margins, correct margins and again press the accelerator. So right now I think we are in a comfortable place to push the accelerator for the next phase.

Richard Liu — JM Financial — Analyst

Got that, Sunil. And did you say that the long-term horizon for the margin for this whole Sampann business is high single-digit and low double-digit?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

It is, yes, absolutely right.

Richard Liu — JM Financial — Analyst

And how many years out, would that be?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

I would want it to be as quickly as possible. It just that I think will take time to get our procurement engines right with scale. We’ll perhaps take time to put our entire network in place. We will take time to rollout all the value additions that we have envisaged like I said, you will find some path breaking innovation from Sampann coming out in the next 60, 90 days or so, which will show you directionally where we are headed in terms of ramping up the margin and premium profile.

Richard Liu — JM Financial — Analyst

Got it. Thank you very much. Sunil wish you all the best.

Operator

The next question is from the line of Devika Jain from Ratnabali Investments. Please go ahead.

Devika Jain — Ratnabali Investments — Analyst

Hi, thank you for taking my question. So I want to do understand what would be the impact on our tea business given the inflationary trend that’s happening in Europe?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

If you’re asking for inflationary trend on the tea business in international because of what is happening in Europe. So it’s not only Europe, you saw the graph on Kenyan tea which has moved up versus last year. Added to that the inflationary both in terms of gasoline prices, which has an impact on packaging freight and overall cost of doing business, that is one of the reasons why we have taken some aggressive price increases. U.S. is primarily coffee, which you’ve already taken up and stabilized the margins per se and by the way gained share. Our big business of Canada, I think is on right track having already implemented the price increases. In the U.K., while we had announced the price increases, the price increases have still not landed because there are several large retailers to deal through with on the execution piece, but I think the last pieces of the puzzle are fallen into place end of last quarter. So our margin should be back on track. Will volumes be slightly impacted? I would think so, but I think revenues and margins will be on the right trajectory, which is what I would target for in the international space.

Devika Jain — Ratnabali Investments — Analyst

Okay, got it. And second question. So I wanted to understand the reason why we are losing market share in the international market both for coffee as well as tea, like every quarter value market share?

Sunil D’Souza — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer

So as I mentioned in the U.S. market, our coffee market share is back on track and started moving up. Branded bags are moving faster than K cups. K cups also you should start seeing the share going up. Canada again is starting to move up. Canada we’re anyway in the #1 position overall per se. In the U.K., there is work to do, black tea versus specialty and herbals. That is the reason why we are putting money behind Teapigs because we do think there is enormous amount of growth to be had there. They see the overall growth of Teapigs versus the rest of the portfolio. I think the actions have started to move. By the way, Teapigs was the fastest growing specialty brand in the U.S. also in the past quarter. So we’ve got to play the right profile of where the growth is. Black tea is almost stagnant. The growth is happening in fruit and herbals and speciality. That is where we are putting our money starting to move the curves. I think it is a matter of time before you’ll start seeing the shared trajectory’s scale and shape.

Nidhi Verma — Head – Investor Relations and Communication

Yes, I think that it wraps. Yes, we will just conclude because we’ve run out of time. And I just kind of conclude. So thank you everyone for joining us on behalf of the management. Sorry for having to extend the call. But if you do have any further questions, you can get in touch with me. Thanks. Thanks, Manoj and team for hosting us.

Operator

Thank you very much. On behalf of ICICI Securities Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. You may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.

More TATACONSUM analysis

Transcript powered by AlphaStreet

This article is a transcript of this conference call produced for The Motley Fool. While we strive for our Foolish Best, there may be errors, omissions, or inaccuracies in this transcript. As with all our articles, The Motley Fool does not assume any responsibility for your use of this content, and we strongly encourage you to do your own research, including listening to the call yourself and reading the company’s SEC filings. Please see our Terms and Conditions for additional details, including our Obligatory Capitalized Disclaimers of Liability.

{%sfr%}