Chambal Fertilizers & Chemicals Limited (CHAMBLFERT) Q4 FY23 Earnings Concall Transcript

Chambal Fertilizers & Chemicals Limited (NSE:CHAMBLFERT) Q4 FY23 Earnings Concall dated May. 29, 2023

Corporate participants:

Rishab Barar — Investor Relations

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Anuj Jain — Assistant Vice President, Finance and Company Secretary

Ashish K. Srivastava — Vice President, Sales and Marketing

Anand Agarwal — Chief Financial Officer

Analysts:

Falguni Dutta — Jet Age Securities Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Vidit Shah — IIFL Securities — Analyst

Tarang Agrawal — Old Bridge Capital Management Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Harmish Desai — PhillipCapital (India) Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Prashant Biyani — Elara Capital — Analyst

Vivek Ramakrishnan — DSP Mutual Fund — Analyst

Unidentified Participant — — Analyst

Presentation:

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the Chambal Fertilisers and Chemicals Q4 and FY ’23 Earnings Conference Call. [Operator Instructions]. Please note that this conference is being recorded.

I now hand the conference over to Mr. Rishab Barar from CDR India. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Rishab Barar — Investor Relations

Good day, everyone. Thank you for joining us on the Chambal Fertilisers and Chemicals Q4 and FY ’23 Earnings Call. We have with us today: Mr. Gaurav Mathur, Managing Director; Mr. Anand Agarwal, CFO; Mr. Anuj Jain, Assistant Vice President, Finance and Company Secretary; and Mr. Ashish Srivastava, Vice President, Sales and Marketing.

Before we get started, I would like to point out that some statements made or discussed in the conference call today may be forward-looking in nature and must be viewed in conjunction with the risks the company faces. Chambal Fertilisers and Chemicals does not undertake to update them. The statement in this regard is available for reference in the presentation. We will begin this call with opening remarks from Mr. Mathur.

I would now like to invite Mr. Mathur to share his views. Over to you, sir.

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Thank you, Rishab. Good day, everybody, and a warm welcome to all of you participating in this call. We will share our performance over the just concluded quarter and financial year 2023. Since we have already shared the presentation and financial performance with you, I will not restate the numbers in my opening remarks.

While operating performance in Q4 was in line with earlier years, there was an impact of approximately INR197 crores at PBT level on account of subsidy reduction in P&K fertilisers. This was for the period one — from Jan to March ’23 as well as the further reduction from one of April ’23. These reduction impact both the company as well as the channel stock.

Our urea business continues to do well. We achieved highest ever production of urea at almost 33.5 lakh metric tonnes, this was at the best energy per tonne of urea, leading to good gains on energy efficiency for the year. We continue to evaluate and implement further energy efficiency projects. We understood the biannual shutdown for Gadepan-III as per plan in March, which resulted in further improvement of its performance for the future. We sustained our share in Phosphatic fertilisers aligned with the need to meet farmer requirements in a very challenging year.

In the new geographies, in spite of the overall challenging situation, we continue to make inroads to both expand our network as well as increase our sales. We continued our thrust [Phonetic] on expanding the Crop protection and Speciality Nutrients business where we see significant potential. This segment has grown over 50% year-on-year, albeit on a relatively low base, and we have more than doubled both our top line and margin in the last two years.

During the year, we launched 10 new products majorly for wheat, paddy, maize, soyabean, sugarcane and mustard crops. Our Seed to Harvest Program for the farmers is focused on this business and continues to progress well there. To give you some numbers in FY ’23, through this, Chambal undertook programs across approximately 1,163 villages, reaching out to close to one lakh farmers, did about 2,800 farmer-training programs and over 30,000 soil samples. This has had very significant traction with the farmers, and we look to significantly scale this up in the coming years.

Subsidy payments have also been timely since November ’22 onwards. The budgetary allocation for the current fiscal year, i.e., FY ’23-’24 offers comfort that this should continue and that there is adequate subsidy coverage. Additionally, the fall in gas as well as P&K fertiliser prices should also help impact subsidies positively. Our Technical Ammonium Nitrate Project is on track. The project has been awarded to Larsen & Toubro on a Lump Sum Turnkey basis, and the technology licensor is CASALE, which has many decades of experience in the Weak Nitric Acid and Ammonium Nitrate plant. The project is slated to be complete by quarter three of FY ’25-’26.

With that, we will now take your questions. Thank you.

Questions and Answers:

Operator

Thank you. We will now begin the question-and-session. [Operator Instructions]. Our first question comes from Falguni Dutta with Jet Age Securities. Please go ahead.

Falguni Dutta — Jet Age Securities Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Hello? Yes, am I audible?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Yes, you are. Go ahead, please.

Falguni Dutta — Jet Age Securities Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Good afternoon, sir. Sir, just one question from my side. What was the impact of this reduction in subsidy. I missed in case you had mentioned in your opening remarks?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

That is INR197 crores, Falguni.

Falguni Dutta — Jet Age Securities Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

And where has it got reflected? Under which head, I mean?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

It has been taken into the quarter four financials and the full year financials.

Falguni Dutta — Jet Age Securities Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

No, I mean.

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

It’s been reflected in off margin access [Phonetic].

Falguni Dutta — Jet Age Securities Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

This is a part of raw materials or? I mean, where is this impact?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

That is part of raw materials?

Falguni Dutta — Jet Age Securities Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Thank you, sir. That’s all from my side.

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Thank you.

Operator

[Operator Instructions]. Our next question comes from Vidit with IIFL Securities. Please go ahead.

Vidit Shah — IIFL Securities — Analyst

Hi. Thanks for taking my question. Just to take the previous question forward, this INR197 crores, what would be the impact on the inventory loss because of the subsidy write-down from one April onwards? And what would be the split between Jan to March, would that be possible to provide?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

So Jan to March is INR30 crores, and the balance is for the quarter end for the next semi-annual, ’23 [Phonetic] September.

Vidit Shah — IIFL Securities — Analyst

Okay. Understood. And you spoke about energy efficiency improvements that have been happening at Chambal and the projects that you’ve undertaken, so if you could shed some light on how much we’ve improved versus two years back or three years back and what metric are we currently operating at? And what’s the target that the company has to — going forward?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Yes. So Vidit sir, we have achieved this year approximately 5.15 Gcal per metric tonne of urea, right? And last year, I think, we were at 5.23. So over the last four, five years, if I go back, we were more around the 5.3 mark, and now we’ve come down to 5.15. We have further projects, which we will implement in Gadepan-I and Gadepan-II, which should help to bring this down further.

Vidit Shah — IIFL Securities — Analyst

Okay. Understood. So maybe like five would be an appropriate target? Or could this go even lower than that?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

No. To be realistic, five at this point of time, we don’t see that because we also need to take into account the appropriate payback on the project that we implement. So we would expect that we might be able to get to 5.1 in the next few years.

Vidit Shah — IIFL Securities — Analyst

Okay. Cool. Just one last question on.

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

The industry average is around 5.8, overall industry average is around 5.8. So we are, as of now, significantly better than the industry.

Vidit Shah — IIFL Securities — Analyst

Understood. Just one question on this, on the increase in investments that we’ve seen in short-term investments, I think, we’ve seen them increase by about INR1,800-odd crores. What are these investments being parked in currently?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

These are majorly the mutual funds.

Vidit Shah — IIFL Securities — Analyst

Okay. Equity or debt or both?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

No, no. These are very, very short-term, these are liquid funds and overnight funds.

Vidit Shah — IIFL Securities — Analyst

Okay. Fine.

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

These are short term surplus credit [Phonetic], and therefore, it can only be debt securities.

Vidit Shah — IIFL Securities — Analyst

Got it. Okay. Cool. I’ll come back in queue for more questions. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from line of Tarang with Old Bridge. Please go ahead.

Tarang Agrawal — Old Bridge Capital Management Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Hi. Good afternoon. Thank you for your time. Congratulations for strong cash flows. I believe the business is net cash ex-subsidy now, so that’s good to see. Just a couple of things. One, if you could give us what the power and fuel expenses were for Q4 FY ’23?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Anuj, can you please provide the power and fuel expenses? While we take that out, what’s your other question?

Anuj Jain — Assistant Vice President, Finance and Company Secretary

Power and fuel expense for the quarter is INR968 crores, and for the year is INR4,838 crores.

Tarang Agrawal — Old Bridge Capital Management Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Okay. Second, on the INR197-odd crores inventory loss that you’ve recorded in Q4, how much of it is relating to the nitrogen business and how much of it is to the trading business?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

So this has nothing to do with the nitrogen business because the nitrogen business, the gas cost, there are two parts of the subsidy. One is the gas cost, which is essentially a pass-through, but there is escalation in it, which the government takes care from time-to-time. And the second part is the fixed component of the nitrogen business, which is a fixed number. It doesn’t really change, if anything. So in substance, there is nothing to do with the nitrogen business, it is primarily to do with the P&K business and within that DAP.

Tarang Agrawal — Old Bridge Capital Management Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

I would reckon, I mean, your allocation is about three million tonnes, right? So any incremental fertiliser that you are selling over and above the reassessed capacity is on the basis of import parity prices and the fact that import parity prices have crashed significantly, especially in Q4, that would have had some impact. Did it?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Not really. You see what happened is that we did a our full production, and there was no impact on production beyond reassessed capacity. As regards to import price parity, that is calculated on an annualized basis. So it is not a monthly or a quarterly number, it is actually calculated on an annualized basis. And the annual price of imported urea was significantly higher than the cost of indigenous production. So there was no impact on reassessed capacity production at all.

Tarang Agrawal — Old Bridge Capital Management Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Okay. Just a final one on the Phosphatics, sorry for harping on this. But effectively, I mean, how are you seeing this going forward in FY ’24 in terms of some checks and balances that you might have perhaps incorporated in the overall system because, I mean, FY ’23 particularly, has been a difficult year in so far as the trading business is concerned, right from what we saw in September and now what we are seeing in Q4?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Yes. FY ’23 is a very, very unique year, which my colleagues in the industry say has never been seen in the history of the industry. So what we are obviously looking at going forward is to make sure that most of our stock is placed in the market as early as possible and move out to those point of sale. I would also just like to add that while we have had this impact in quarter four, but our stock as a percentage of the industry was far lower than our market share. So as a company, we were quite focused on it and we were able to keep our stock at quite a low level compared to the industry overall.

Tarang Agrawal — Old Bridge Capital Management Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Okay. Okay. Thanks.

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from Harmish Desai with PhillipCapital. Please go ahead.

Harmish Desai — PhillipCapital (India) Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Good afternoon, and thanks for taking my question. Sir, my first question is on the crop production segment. So can you tell me what kind of margins have we made in this segment in FY ’23? And what are we targeting — what kind of margins are we targeting in the year FY ’24?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Good afternoon, Harmish. Thank you for your questions. We don’t share our margin percentages as such. What I can say to you is that our margins overall are well comparable or better than the industry average.

Harmish Desai — PhillipCapital (India) Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Okay.

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

So even with — we have a unique business model, and with that unique business model, we are able to have — we are very happy that we are able to have a very high growth numbers. So we have more than doubled our top line — over the last two years, though we started from a low base. But yes, we have more than doubled our top line and our margins have also moved along consistently. We are very keen and particular, that we don’t compromise on our percentage margins as we continue to grow strongly.

Harmish Desai — PhillipCapital (India) Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Okay. That is helpful. And sir, what kind of CapEx are we targeting in this segment in FY ’24?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

I’ll ask Ashish, our Head of Sales and Marketing, to respond to that on the segments that we are targeting in FY ’24.

Ashish K. Srivastava — Vice President, Sales and Marketing

The entire — see, the product portfolio caters to the entire crop range and the entire insecticides, herbicides [Phonetic] and the fungicides segment, so the entire crop in the territory is covered, so the credit portfolio is completed long itself [Phonetic], sir.

Harmish Desai — PhillipCapital (India) Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Okay. And sir, I don’t know if I have missed it. Can you share the urea production breakup between G1, G2 and G3?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Anuj, can you please provide that?

Anuj Jain — Assistant Vice President, Finance and Company Secretary

It’s there in the investor presentation though. [Speech Overlap] just a second. Yes. So we have Gadepan-I and Gadepan-II, 20.61 lakh for the year ’23. And for Gadepan-III, we have 12.86 lakh, so total to 33.47 lakhs.

Harmish Desai — PhillipCapital (India) Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Okay. And sir, my last question is about IMACID. And so, as you said rightly, that this entire year has been some kind of an anomaly, for IMACID as well as for all other segments. So what is your expectation from IMACID in FY ’24?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

So we expect that IMACID should continue to perform as per its standard past year performance in FY ’24. In FY ’21-’22, there was a huge upsurge because of the overall international situation, and that got largely normalized in FY ’22-’23, and in fact, it went down in EBIT. Now we expect that in the current financial year, it should come back to its standard sort of performance, which it used to have in the past years.

Harmish Desai — PhillipCapital (India) Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Okay. That is helpful, sir. Thank you and all the best.

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from Prashant Biyani with Elara Securities. Please go ahead.

Prashant Biyani — Elara Capital — Analyst

Yeah. Thanks for the opportunity. Sir, how do you see the trading volume trajectory for H1? And how much of the targeted H1 sales materials have we already bought?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

So we have all been set certain targets by the Department of fertilisers both the traders as well as the manufacturers. Based on that, we have procured our material. Now we are also conscious of the stocks that the country carried at opening — as opening stocks, there were reasonably substantial opening stocks that the country had as a whole, though we managed to keep our stocks relatively low as of one of April. So we would say that we would look at best similar volumes, but the more important thing would be that we would try to make sure that we do the volumes which are appropriate than [Phonetic] the sort of on the margin side because the uncertainty on the subsidy in the future from one October will also remain. So we are mindful of that, and planning our volumes accordingly.

Prashant Biyani — Elara Capital — Analyst

And sir, whatever we are targeting to sell, have we bought all those materials? Or for some we are yet to purchase?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

No, no, it is — we haven’t — we bought about 50% to 60%. And for Q1, we are covered. But for beyond that, we are being very watchful because there is a downward price trend. So we also want to be careful of when we buy.

Prashant Biyani — Elara Capital — Analyst

Right. And sir, can’t we as an industry, give representation to the government to restore annual division of subsidy as was the case earlier, because the uncertainty on the availability globally has also ebbed now. So what would be the industry or your view or have we thought on these lines?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

That’s a very good point, Prashant, and we continue to work through the Fertiliser Association of India with the department and the government, and it has been our representation through FAI that the subsidy should now be declared for the full year. However, as we know, the government has again declared it for a 6-month period from one April to 30th September.

Prashant Biyani — Elara Capital — Analyst

Yes. But I mean, sir, just extending this point, nothing seems to work with the government, especially the Department of Fertiliser arm, whereas for other ministries, we are seeing that they are at least cognizant of industry concerns, whereas here we are seeing retrospective revisions. So I mean, is it that they are just on their own? Or — and the representation from this industry is just only being heard or they are actually considerate to it?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Well, I can’t answer on behalf of the government or the department. And I guess the Fertiliser Association would be best placed [Phonetic] to answer this question. But what I can assure you is that we as well as the FAI keep apprising the government quite regularly on the challenges and seeking a positive intervention.

Prashant Biyani — Elara Capital — Analyst

A few data-related questions. What would be the ammonia production and sales volume for the year?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

So the total ammonia that we sold in last year was of the order of 90,000 tonnes may not be precisely 590,000, give or take a few thousand tonnes here and there. And the production — total production of ammonia would be close to 1.9 million tonnes or thereabouts, right?

Prashant Biyani — Elara Capital — Analyst

Okay. And sir, just this breakup of freight and packing expenses also like we used to share till last quarter?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Freight and packing expenses? Yes, I think, Anuj can give them to you.

Anuj Jain — Assistant Vice President, Finance and Company Secretary

Freight and Forwarding Charges for the quarter is INR135 crores, and for the year it is INR778 crores.

Prashant Biyani — Elara Capital — Analyst

And Packing?

Anuj Jain — Assistant Vice President, Finance and Company Secretary

Packing is INR30,000 for the quarter, and for the year it is INR135 crores.

Prashant Biyani — Elara Capital — Analyst

30 for the quarter?

Anuj Jain — Assistant Vice President, Finance and Company Secretary

Yes. 30.

Prashant Biyani — Elara Capital — Analyst

Yes. And sir, is it possible to give G3 energy consumption level separately?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Yes. In G3, our energy for the year was — because we took a shutdown in March, so that actually adds a certain shutdown and start-up energy. So including that, it was about 4.88 Gcal per metric tonne roughly.

Prashant Biyani — Elara Capital — Analyst

Okay. And if we exclude the maintenance shutdown part then?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Then it would have been more around 4.8 — 4.7, around 4.7.

Prashant Biyani — Elara Capital — Analyst

Okay. And, sir for.

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Around 4.75, yes. So I am — we are very happy with that Gadepan-III energy probably continues to be the best in the world.

Prashant Biyani — Elara Capital — Analyst

Right. And lastly, sir, because we had taken maintenance shutdown for G3 in March, do you expect the urea sales mix for Q1, the contribution from G3 to reduce?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Not clearly. I mean, G3 came back in production, so we do not expect — G3 production volume for quarter one will be as per plan.

Prashant Biyani — Elara Capital — Analyst

Okay. And sir, for Q4, was there a lower contribution of G3 sales in total urea?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

See what happens, Prashant, is that the total volume for G3 is 12.7 lakh metric tonnes, which is applicable as per the NIP ’12 rates. Beyond that, if you see, we have produced beyond that. Beyond that, the remuneration given is as per the same formula as G1 and G2. So we covered the entire production of G3 up to the NIP ’12 policy of 12.7 lakh tonnes and produced even a little bit more beyond that in spite of a shutdown.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from Vivek Ramakrishnan with DSP Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.

Vivek Ramakrishnan — DSP Mutual Fund — Analyst

Sir, good afternoon. My first question is simple in terms of what is the CapEx for the current year with your plan for the company as a whole? I’ll also ask the second question. You seem to have a bit of a hops and stalls in terms of imports and subsidies, all moving in different lags. Is the supply chain now in a position where you can fine-tune the purchases so that you can meet your market demand as well as keep your inventories without that much of a subsidy risk? Those are my two questions, sir. Thank you.

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

So our CapEx this time for the financial year will be in the range of INR300 crores to INR400 crores. And within that, I have a few good energy efficiency projects. Our routine CapEx if I takeout energy efficiency projects would be more in the INR150 crores to INR200 crores ballpark, right? And then, depending on the good energy-saving projects, we add on top of that.

As regards to your second question, could you please repeat that?

Vivek Ramakrishnan — DSP Mutual Fund — Analyst

No sir, in terms of — has the supply chain, in the last year, you had to import a lot because of the supply chain issues and so on. Has the supply chain in your phosphatic and other fertilisers improve, so that you can fine-tune your purchases and keep your inventory low and avoid the subsidy risk that you saw in FY ’23?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Absolutely. I mean, that’s the exact idea, intention. And our plan is to import and sell material in a manner where we minimize our stocks at the end of September and minimize, therefore, any impact of subsidy revisions.

Vivek Ramakrishnan — DSP Mutual Fund — Analyst

Thank you very much, sir, and wish you good luck.

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from Falguni Dutta with Jet Age Securities. Please go ahead.

Falguni Dutta — Jet Age Securities Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Sir, one more clarification on the INR197 crore number, does it include the subsidy cut from April onwards also?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Yes, it does.

Falguni Dutta — Jet Age Securities Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

And the stock that we have with the — in the channels, our stock in the channel, it includes a reduction on that as well?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

So what happens is, just to be very clear, when there is a subsidy change as of, let’s say, one of April, there is stock that we are carrying in our warehouses as well as stock in the channel. The subsidy change impact is addressed for both of them.

Falguni Dutta — Jet Age Securities Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Okay. So this INR197 crore is take into account the inventory with the channel also?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Absolutely.

Falguni Dutta — Jet Age Securities Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Fine, sir. Yes, yes?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

The inventory is stable, when the sales happens through the farmer.

Falguni Dutta — Jet Age Securities Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Yes. So you will have to account for that as well. That’s what you meant?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Yes. Which is what happening there [Phonetic].

Falguni Dutta — Jet Age Securities Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Sir, we don’t — so now we don’t have any impact to come in on that account at least?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

That’s right. That’s right.

Falguni Dutta — Jet Age Securities Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

And sir, one more clarification. So on your trading volumes, did you say that they would be mostly flattish Y-o-Y? I mean, did I hear correctly?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Look, the trading volume is a function of a few — add thing. It’s a function of the targets that the government sets, the consumption pattern of the farmers and in the country, as well as the financial situation in terms of the margin, the subsidy, the MRP, etc. So based on that, we would look to regulate our volumes in a manner that we get the best benefit for the company, which is why we are not really stuck on a volume number per se for the year. I hope that makes it clear.

Falguni Dutta — Jet Age Securities Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Okay, sir. Thank you. Yes. Yes, sir. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. [Operator Instructions]. Our next question comes from Tarang with Old Bridge. Please go ahead.

Tarang Agrawal — Old Bridge Capital Management Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Hi. Just a follow-up. Second, on your trading business, what’s your inventory value as on 31 March? And how many metric tonnes of inventory?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

So in terms of metric tonnes, we had roughly if I remember is about 1.8 lakh, 1.9 lakh metric tonnes, Anuj.

Anuj Jain — Assistant Vice President, Finance and Company Secretary

Yes.

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

All inclusive, would be about 1.8 lakh, 1.9 lakh metric tonnes. DAP, NPK, and MOP all put together, and value Anuj you can mention. While Anuj is taking out the value, what I would say is that our inventory was about only 5% of the industry, while our market share is about 10%. So we did manage to keep our inventory quite low.

Anuj Jain — Assistant Vice President, Finance and Company Secretary

We have total inventory of about INR1,500 crores, including urea.

Tarang Agrawal — Old Bridge Capital Management Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

I know, that I can see, I was looking at the trading business.

Anuj Jain — Assistant Vice President, Finance and Company Secretary

Trading business? So urea, we didn’t have much inventory, so it can be trading, but definitely, we can give that number.

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Okay. We’ll give it off, we’ll give it. We’ll share that number to everybody.

Tarang Agrawal — Old Bridge Capital Management Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Sure. The second, sir, the next question is on the energy consumption for the business. The 5.15 figure is consolidated for the three plants, right, one, two and three?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Yes.

Tarang Agrawal — Old Bridge Capital Management Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Okay. And what would be the — while the industry average is 5.8, what would be, in your opinion, the consumption of your closest peer or the second most efficient peer — player in the country, right now?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

So currently, I think the most efficient single plant of Older Vintage. So, I don’t want to bring Gadepan-III because that’s a new plant. But the most efficient plant of an Older Vintage would be just over 5.

Tarang Agrawal — Old Bridge Capital Management Pvt. Ltd. — Analyst

Okay. Got it. That’s helpful.

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

So 5.0 something, as opposed to ours.

Anuj Jain — Assistant Vice President, Finance and Company Secretary

Yes.

Operator

Thank you. [Operator Instructions]. Our next question comes from Marcel [Phonetic], an Investor. Please go ahead.

Unidentified Participant — — Analyst

Yes, my question is that for this time, this project is what is our total CapEx? And how are we going to fund it, from internal accruals or from the debts?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

So the capacity of the Ammonium Nitrate plant is 2,40,000 tonnes per annum. And the Weak Nitric Acid plant, the nameplate capacity is 600,000 tonnes per annum. What was the second part of your question?

Unidentified Participant — — Analyst

No, my question was that, what is that like what is the total cost of the technical Ammonium Nitrate project, which were coming? [Phonetic] And then how are we going to fund it? Like how much like amount we are spending from the internal accruals and how much will be debts?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Sure. Anand, you can answer that.

Anand Agarwal — Chief Financial Officer

Overall cost of the project is INR1,645 crores, and we are planning to fund it by way of 50/50 between debt and equity. As of now, that is what we have planned.

Unidentified Participant — — Analyst

Yes. And like how it’s going to compete, I think, Deepak Fertilisers also coming with a similar project and like — I think, they will be commencing before you. So what will be the demand scenario, like how much capacity now are you projecting for this one?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

So first of all, well, we don’t know whether Deepak Fertilisers will come before us or we will come before them. Let us see how that goes. That’s one. What I would say to you is that our cost of manufacture and cost of sales to the target markets that we have identified is going to be perhaps the lowest in the country. That’s one.

Second is that, with the growth of overall economy that we see — the overall growth in energy that we see as well as infrastructure, all of which leads to requirement for, let’s say, more cement, more coal, more filling material for roads, etc. We obviously believe that there is a strong case for the project, which is why we are putting it up.

Unidentified Participant — — Analyst

And sir, where is the location? Where is the location of the project?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

That’s at our existing site at Gadepan, because we are going to utilize the excess Technical Ammonia that we are currently selling to make Ammonium Nitrate, and thereby do value addition and higher margins at the existing site?

Unidentified Participant — — Analyst

Is it sort of integration? Yes. But sir, like I think this is the main market for this will be the mining sector, main — like the target customer will be mining sector. So I think Deepak is setting the plant in Orissa, which has a lot of mines — iron ore, and the coal mine and ore, and so and so. So what about your this — logistics like? If you’re setting up at Rajasthan, where there are not many mines. So like — will it not be still — our cost of supply will be higher?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Marcel, Orissa, etc., is yes, there is a lot of coal mining, but that’s not the only place where mining happens. There is a very significant mining chunk in around Central India in the area of Singrauli, etc., where we have a cost-to-serve advantage compared to most other locations.

Unidentified Participant — — Analyst

Very good. Just sir, like this, the other question is very important. Means, since the last quarter, we have been somehow like almost our PBT is hardly INR10 crores. So now is it not a good time to look at our cost, because if I see the other expenses, they are almost INR1,000 crore — INR1,200 crore plus. So is the company taking some steps into restructuring or no increment or just like cutting down salary or some other expenses because I think it’s the right time now that we should look at this part, because this is a huge component we are carrying. And rather it’s increasing right now, like in the last year it was only INR4,000 crores and this year it is INR6,000 crores.

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Yes. So see, please note that these costs increase in expenses in us, not an admin cost and other costs. This is more due to power and fuel, this is more due to freight and forwarding expenses and all. This is not due to the fixed cost in all. If a business increases, it doesn’t mean you have to pay more, and these are reimbursable costs really.

Unidentified Participant — — Analyst

No, but like just to give you a sort of a little bit interaction here. For example, since we are spending a sizable amount, I do not know how much we are actually spending on this freight/forwarding, for example. So is the company planning to do some sort of better integration having its own fleet and so on? Because like whatever money we are spending on the freight is like is going at a den [Phonetic]. They are not taking any asset for us. So maybe 50/50, 50% of the freight/forwarding, we can do from our own fleet. Remaining we can, just like for example, hire from the market and so on. Something we should — something for example, as value addition or something optimization should be done here.

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

So, Marcel, please understand that the freight in the fertiliser business is — consists of two parts. One is the bulk movement from either the factory or the port to the various districts, which happens by rake, that is fully reimbursed 100% by the government as part of the freight policy on this.

The second part is the movement from the rake point to the dealer location by truck, which is also reimbursed by the government. Right? So the freight, etc., that you see over here are separate line items, they are largely reimbursed by the government as part of the freight policy of delivering bulk fertilisers.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from Vidit with IIFL Securities. Please go ahead.

Vidit Shah — IIFL Securities — Analyst

Hi. Thanks for the follow-up. Just a couple of questions for me. The first one was on the CapEx of the TAN projects. So you mentioned that FY ’24 budget, the CapEx budget is about [Phonetic] INR300 crores, INR400 crores, of which, I think half of it is on energy efficiency projects. So is it fair to assume that the TAN project CapEx is largely going to happen in FY ’25? And if so, then why are we not bringing this forward to FY ’24?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

So a small correction, actually, where I mentioned INR300 crores to INR400 crores on CapEx, that excludes the TAN project, right? On the TAN project, we would expect that in this year, we would have somewhere of the order of INR500 crores of cash flow on the time projects specifically. So it’s INR300 crores to INR400 crores, that’s part of our normal CapEx, which includes the energy efficiency project plus of the order of INR500 crores for Ammonium Nitrate, separately.

Vidit Shah — IIFL Securities — Analyst

Got it. And how much has already been spent on the Ammonium Nitrate plant?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Currently, we spend of the order of INR100 crores.

Vidit Shah — IIFL Securities — Analyst

Okay. Understood. And just one last data point in terms of the pool [Phonetic] natural gas cost for 4Q and what it is currently?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

The current natural gas is of the order of $17.6 per MMBtu, $17.7 per MMBtu delivered basis.

Anuj Jain — Assistant Vice President, Finance and Company Secretary

NCV basis.

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

NCV Basis. We expect that it might remain around this number going forward because the bulk of the gas price is linked to the Brent crude for the industry. So for quarter one, it’s expected to remain here, maybe on a similar number for quarter two also.

Vidit Shah — IIFL Securities — Analyst

Got it. And what was it in quarter four of FY ’23?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Quarter four, it was $17.4 per MMBtu.

Vidit Shah — IIFL Securities — Analyst

Okay. Understood. All right. Thanks for these answers. All the best.

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. Our next question comes from Prashant Biyani with Elara Securities. Please go ahead.

Prashant Biyani — Elara Capital — Analyst

Yes. Just one question. Sir, how in the light of falling ammonia prices, how do wish to defend the urea, ammonia profitability for this year?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Yes. So that’s a very good question. So, we will definitely see a reduction in profitability on the ammonia part, which again was a bit of an anomaly last year. Now let us see how it goes, because these things can be transitory also. Today, we see a downward projection and our expectation is that now the price has stabilized, and should not go down further. And yes, it will place some challenges on ammonia margins, going forward.

At the same time, we also have to look at that when we sell ammonia, we get better efficiency in the plants. So overall, it’s not just a simple equation of the direct margin that one makes on ammonia, it’s a combination of the direct margin plus the energy efficiency that we get by operating our plants at a high rate.

Prashant Biyani — Elara Capital — Analyst

Right. Is it possible to share the ammonia contribution to EBITDA for last year?

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

I think, that is something which we usually don’t want to share, Prashant.

Prashant Biyani — Elara Capital — Analyst

Okay, sir. That’s it from my side. Thanks.

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. [Operator Instructions]. As there are no further questions, I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for closing comments.

Gaurav Mathur — Managing Director

Thank you very much, Rishab. Thank you, everyone, for joining the conference and for your insightful questions. We wish you a very nice day, going forward. Thank you very much.

Operator

[Operator Closing Remarks]