Yasho Industries Limited (BSE: 541167) Q2 2025 Earnings Call dated Nov. 14, 2024
Corporate Participants:
Parag Jhaveri — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer
Deepak Kaku — Chief Financial Officer
Analysts:
Masoom Rateria — Analyst
Aman Thadani — Analyst
Nigel — Analyst
Gautam Rajesh — Analyst
Pradeep Rawat — Analyst
Saurav Gupta — Analyst
Manish Gupta — Analyst
Laveena Jagwani — Analyst
Shubham Jhawar — Analyst
Unidentified Participant
Darshil Shah — Analyst
Sakshi Trivedi — Analyst
Presentation:
Operator
Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to Yasho Industries Limited Q2 and H1 FY ’25 Earnings Conference Call hosted by Orient Capital. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded.
I now hand the conference over to Ms. Masoom Rateria from Orient Capital.
Masoom Rateria — Analyst
Thank you. Good evening everyone. Thanks for coming to Yasho Industries Q2 and H1 FY ’25 business concall. Today we have with us from the management Mr. Parag Jhaveri, the Managing Director and CEO; along with Mr. Deepak Kaku, the CFO.
Before we proceed with the call, I would like to give a small disclaimer that the call we contain forward-looking statements which are based on the business opinions and expectations of the company as on today. A detailed disclaimer has been given in the company’s investor presentation. I hope everyone had a chance to go through it which was uploaded on the stock exchange.
Now, I would like to hand over the call to Mr. Parag Jhaveri. Over to you, sir.
Parag Jhaveri — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. On behalf of Yasho Industries Limited, I extend a warm welcome to all of you joining us for today’s result call. Let me wish you also a happy Deepavali and hope that all of you must have had a good break.
We greatly value your time and interest in our company’s performance. I trust you have had a chance to review the financial results and investor presentation for Q2 and H1 FY ’25 which are available on the stock exchange and our company’s website. During this quarter, we achieved sales for INR167.35 crores which represents a 17% year-on-year increase. The increase in sales was on account of 16% increase in sales volume. This quarter, due to a favourable product mix, we have achieved an EBITDA of 18.8%.
Going forward, we estimate that EBITDA will remain in the range of 17% to 19% for the next few quarters while operations in Vapi remain stable. The Pakhajan facility is currently operating at a 15% utilization. Several of our products are under various stages of approval and we estimate that the Pakhajan facility should achieve a 60% utilization rate in Q4 FY ’25.
This quarter, export contributed about 66% of our sales. The industrial business contributed 82% of sales. Our U.S. subsidiary will be operational in the next few weeks and we expect that it will help us reach more customers in the U.S. market. Globally, the prices of chemicals have been facing a downward pressure for quite some time and we estimate that will continue to remain at this level for the next two quarters. We are also seeing some slowdown across the sector and continue to be cautious in our approach.
Despite these challenges, we continue to gain market share. Several of our products from the Pakhajan facilities are under various stages of approval and we expect the business to develop in the next three to six months. Despite short delivery, short-term challenges, we continue to engage with our customers and are confident of our long-term approach.
Now, we can begin with question-and-answer.
Questions and Answers:
Operator
Thank you very much. [Operator Instructions] We have first question from the line of Aman Thadani from Solidarity Investment Managers. Go ahead, please.
Aman Thadani
Hello. Am I audible?
Operator
Yes.
Aman Thadani
Thank you so much sir for the opportunity. Sir, I have some questions. My first one is, the gross margins have meaningfully improved on a Q-on-Q and Y-on-Y basis.
Parag Jhaveri
Your voice is not clear.
Aman Thadani
Am I audible now?
Parag Jhaveri
Yes.
Aman Thadani
So sir, my first question is, the gross margins have meaningfully improved on a Q-on-Q and on a Y-on-Y basis, it’s touching around 45%. But the split between the customer and the industrial hasn’t meaningfully changed. So just wanted your views on what led to this improvement and what is the sort of sustainable gross margins that one should work with going ahead?
Parag Jhaveri
There were two factors. Number one was the product mix, which helped us to improvise the product margin. And number two, in this quarter, we have a better contribution came from the Pakhajan unit that has also helped us to improvise the margin. So we hope that we should be able to maintain this margin going forward. We cannot say confidently. As you know, the chemical sectors are at the moment under the price pressure. And that is purely the time which will say that whether we will be able to hold, we can improve further on this, or we will not definitely deteriorate from here.
So that’s why we are giving a guidance of 17% to 19%. We are not saying we will be able to do that. Because currently, a lot of changes are happening in the market. And one should be a little bit cautious in its approach and the commitment.
Aman Thadani
Sir, but the current EBITDA margins that were delivered in this quarter, it seems that it was majorly led by the gross margin improvement. So, going ahead, if we are not sure of the 45% gross margin, then shouldn’t the EBITDA margins be lower in the quarters to come?
Parag Jhaveri
I did say that — I did not say that we will grow at 19%. I said between 17% to 19%. So we are cautious here. I’ll be happy to cross 19% also. But the market circumstances should support us here. So we have to wait and watch.
Aman Thadani
Okay. Very well, sir. Sir my second question is, sir, management has given an expectation of 60% capacity utilization in Pakhajan Q4. So since we are very near to Q4, it’s just four months away. So sir, what probability would you assign to this capacity utilization number?
Parag Jhaveri
Very high probability.
Aman Thadani
Okay. Understood. And sir, when I look at a balance sheet very closely, the inventories have sort of doubled in September as compared to March 2024. So does this inventory sort of indicate that we have received confirmed orders for the Q4?
Parag Jhaveri
Indicates two things. Number one, that we need to produce some continuous production at the Pakhajan to give trial material to various customers. And also the confirmation commitment, what we are expecting from customers. Considering that factor, we have increased our inventory level of raw material as well as finished goods at Pakhajan.
Aman Thadani
Okay. Sir these are my questions. I’ll get back in the queue. Thank you and best of luck.
Operator
Thank you. We have next question from the line of Nigel [Phonetic] from Leo Capital. Go ahead, please.
Nigel
Good afternoon, sir. A few questions from my end. Firstly, what sort of market size is there for the products that we are making on the lubricant additive side and what rate is the market growing at?
Parag Jhaveri
I think we discussed in the past calls also, lubricant market size should be in the $10 billion to $12 billion and the market growth is between 3% to 4%.
Nigel
Okay, $10 billion and 3% to 4% growth rate, right?
Parag Jhaveri
Yes.
Nigel
Okay. And my next question is on the same lubricant additive side. How much is our manufacturing cost advantage versus our competitors in U.S.A. and Europe?
Parag Jhaveri
I have no idea. I cannot comment on that on someone’s competitiveness.
Nigel
Okay. Understood, sir. And how many customers do we have on the lubricant additive side and what sort of customer concentration is there? Will this also largely be an export business or is it that the domestic will be large?
Parag Jhaveri
It’s a mixture of both the things. You have seen that we are able to maintain our export share and the domestic share almost consistently with a plus minus 1%. So we are growing equally in a domestic market also as well as in the export market and we have a wide customer base for our entire product range. We have more than 2,000 customers today business. So I won’t say we have been highly concentrated in one place.
Nigel
Okay. All right sir. Could you quantify approximately for the customer concentration at present if possible?
Parag Jhaveri
I said about more than 2,000 customers we have today. I don’t have exact split of my category wise is that how much in industrial I don’t have that at the moment. If you need to send an email and we’ll try to get you some information whatever we can provide you.
Nigel
Sure, sir. Thank you. That’s it from my end.
Parag Jhaveri
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. We have a question from the line of Gautam Rajesh from Nonbridge Capital. Go ahead, please.
Gautam Rajesh
Hi. Good evening. Thank you for the opportunity. Sir I have two questions. My first question is how much incremental capex would be needed to add capacity on the lubricant side and when will the new capacity come up, sir?
Parag Jhaveri
How much we need we can’t say that today because how much we want to grow, how much additional we want to put everything depends on that. So I cannot say that. Number two, we generally we look at the next capacity increase once we achieve a 70% plus utilization then we start working on a ramping up the capacity. This time we are seeing a one quarter delay. So I don’t think we will be looking very soon, but maybe after six months we can look at it once we come close to the 70% utilization of the — of our any kind of an assets.
Gautam Rajesh
Okay, sir. And how many days of net working capital is there in the lubricant additive business, sir?
Parag Jhaveri
I don’t have that split up for — we have company-wise split. We don’t have anything for a particular segment.
Gautam Rajesh
Could you give any rough estimation, sir?
Parag Jhaveri
No, I don’t. Sorry, I cannot provide you on the rough estimate because if I don’t have data, how can I give those some rough estimates.
Gautam Rajesh
Understood. Those are my two questions, sir. Thank you.
Parag Jhaveri
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you very much. We have a question from the line of Pradeep Rawat from Yogya Capital. Please go ahead.
Pradeep Rawat
Yes, good evening, and thank you for the opportunity. So sir, our Pakhajan utilization for this quarter is 15%. So was it in line what we have earlier envisaged and going forward what should be the utilization in third quarter?
Parag Jhaveri
I think for quarter two, we have anticipated only 20% utilization in the past. There are some delay happening on an approval side from the customer, final approval. So that’s the reason we have lowered down our utilization target. So…
Pradeep Rawat
Yes. And for the third quarter, what would be the guidance?
Parag Jhaveri
It should be anything between 40 — 35% to 40%.
Pradeep Rawat
Okay. And do we still hold the 90% utilization for FY ’26?
Parag Jhaveri
Yes.
Pradeep Rawat
Okay, understood. And with respect to our next phase of capex, so what could be the cost of capex for similar capacity that we have currently at Pakhajan?
Parag Jhaveri
See, I don’t think if we have to have similar facility then could be about INR200 crores to INR250 crores for the similar facility, but we don’t know which direction we are going to expand, what product line we are going to expand. So I cannot answer that question today, but if you ask me the existing doubling of the capacity, what we spend is about INR200 crores.
Pradeep Rawat
Okay, understood. And one last question. You gave a comment that the end market is slowing down. So can you highlight which end market of ours is slowing down?
Parag Jhaveri
I think what we saw that the people are cautious in Europe and U.S.A. for overall industrial segment, little slowdown we see. I won’t use the word slowdown, but there is a lot of competition and the price dropping. So the customers are cautious. Why to commit when the next buying will be cheaper for us? So that’s what we see. People want to take advantage of the dip and that’s a normal way how people work. So to mitigate that we work on a long-term contract where we have the price commitment, the volume commitment for a quarter or six months and that is helping us to just come over the issues.
Pradeep Rawat
Okay, understood. Thank you, and wish you all the best.
Parag Jhaveri
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. [Operator Instructions] We have a question from Saurav Gupta from Maximal Capital. Please go ahead.
Saurav Gupta
Yes. Hi sir. Sir, this 90% utilization for Pakhajan is for the entire year of FY ’26 or is it the exit sort of FY ’26 guidance?
Parag Jhaveri
FY ’26 entire year.
Saurav Gupta
Okay. So now that like maybe by first half of FY ’26 you would already be close to that and you are saying that you would look into next capacity build up after reaching there. So maybe at the end of quarter one of FY ’26 or somewhere in quarter two of FY ’26 we will get to know about the further expansion plans?
Parag Jhaveri
I think so. Yes, you are right.
Saurav Gupta
Okay. And sir you had also mentioned that in your end markets the prices are coming down. So how are we safeguarding ourselves because is the raw material prices that we use are also falling in tandem thereby helping us to maintain the spreads or how will we safeguard our margins or the spreads at the gross level?
Parag Jhaveri
See, we do it by two way. Number one at the moment what we saw that the raw material prices has dropped and has been kind a bit of settling down, but what we also seen in conjunction the freight cost is also coming down which had gone up before the six months and when the freight cost come down the freight become reasonable and your price comes down. While against that we have our large portfolio of product somewhere we could be able to get a better margin in a certain product or some of the product we have some good hold on quality and the limited supply chain. So that is helping us.
So that was a result of Q2 where we could have a good product mix reshuffling which helped us to improvise the margin. Even though we have grown volume by 17% top line did not increase if you look at the quarter-to-quarter we did not increase even top line. Even though there was a growth in our quarter-on-quarter basis, but we could improve as a margin and that shows our ability to sustain it.
Saurav Gupta
And in general I am talking about the gross profit margin. So they have been very volatile in this quarter. For example, it is up 1,100 basis points compared to last quarter. So it is entirely driven by product mix I understand, but what can be the stable sort of a gross profit margin that we should pencil in for your company as a whole?
Parag Jhaveri
I think we will be striving for in the range of about 40% that was historically the 30% to 40% gross margin and that is what we like to strive there and then improvise further from there.
Saurav Gupta
No, but the mix is now changing in favor of Pakhajan, so even after that we’ll be looking at…
Parag Jhaveri
No, I did not say there is change in Pakhajan, it’s in the Yasho level.
Saurav Gupta
Sorry sir I didn’t get you.
Parag Jhaveri
I — we did not comment that the mix change because of Pakhajan mix change at across the Yasho level, Yasho plants.
Saurav Gupta
Okay. So now with the new capacity in Pakhajan we should be pencilling in 38% to 40%?
Parag Jhaveri
Yes we will see that has to be the minimum level. We will try to improvise further on that.
Saurav Gupta
Okay. So basically when you say your EBITDA margin should be at least 17% going forward maybe the gross profit margins will decline, but you will have much better absorption of your fixed cost which will help you maintain your similar sort of EBITDA margin at least?
Parag Jhaveri
Yes, as the Pakhajan ramp up the facility the fixed cost will be started covering up here. Also the expenses will be started taking care. The more we sell from there, the more there will be rationalization and that will improvise our overall margins.
Saurav Gupta
Okay. Thank you, sir. Thank you, and all the best.
Parag Jhaveri
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. We have a question from the line of Manish Gupta from Solidarity Investment Managers. Please go ahead.
Manish Gupta
Parag bhai, could you give some colour on what’s happening with your competitors right now? One reads a lot about a lot of chemical plants closing down in Europe. Anything you can share specific to our business and our products?
Parag Jhaveri
We have not come across, Manish bhai, by any chemical plant of our company shutting down in Europe. We have not seen that. We know one or two people had some issues on a certain site but that could be temporary. They will be bounced back, pretty sure, or they will find an alternate. So cannot comment on that unless and until we have a firm news on that part of it. I can say that. Because I have not come across any of our competitors shutting down of the product line in which we are existing.
Operator
Thank you, sir. I suppose the line for the participant got disconnected. We will proceed with the next question from Laveena Jagwani from Sparks [Phonetic] Capital. Go ahead, please.
Laveena Jagwani
Yes, hello. Sir, I see that for the first half of this year you’ve done revenues of close to INR340 crores. I just wanted to ask what is your outlook for the second half, and how confident are you on achieving the target of INR900 crores of revenue this year?
Parag Jhaveri
I don’t think so. We will be able to touch the INR900 crores purely because of the selling price dropping. We are very confident to have the total volume expansion or the volume what we are foreseeing that we will be able to sell. But the top line will be going to be challenging time because despite increasing the volume growth, there is no top line growth purely. The raw material prices are down and so the selling prices are down.
Laveena Jagwani
Okay. So what will be the target for this year, sir?
Parag Jhaveri
I think we will be able to give you that target somewhere in a January call only purely because we see somewhere some Sparks — but Sparks are not living for a long time. It’s just come and go. So we need to wait and watch. We are being cautious as I said in my call that we want to be cautious and we don’t want to be over committing something in this current market.
Laveena Jagwani
Okay. And for FY ’26 revenue target?
Parag Jhaveri
I think we will still hold that what we have committed for about INR1,250 crores FY ’26. That was already on the lower band side so we don’t see that challenge.
Laveena Jagwani
Okay. Thank you, sir.
Parag Jhaveri
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you very much. [Operator Instructions] We have a question from Shubham Jhawar from Dexter Capital. Go ahead, please.
Shubham Jhawar
Yes. Hi, am I audible?
Parag Jhaveri
Yes.
Shubham Jhawar
Yes. Hi, sir. Sir basically, I just want to revisit the question one of the participants had asked earlier. So our gross margins have expanded to 47% this quarter compared to 35% last year, same quarter, right? And when I see the investor presentation, the product mix is also similar between the two quarters. So basically, this quarter, the product mix is 82% for industrial right. So product mix hasn’t materially changed. So what is the exact reason here? Like why is the gross margin so high?
Parag Jhaveri
Good question. Good observation. Okay. Within that product segment, we have a number of products. In this segment, we must be having a product more than 100 products somewhere. So yes, within that 100 product region can help us to improve this margin profile. We are trying to push those margin products also and also our conventional products side by side to see that how we can maintain this growth and momentum here. But yes, what you see is correct. It’s a part of the big portfolio of our industry segment. There’s not big change in the segment wise, but within the segment what you see has a change and which is impacted.
Shubham Jhawar
Understood. So basically, you are saying the mix between industrial which are higher margin has been sold more this quarter, right?
Parag Jhaveri
Yes.
Shubham Jhawar
Okay. Sir, my second question is, sir basically, as I rightly understand from your answer in one of the previous questions, that the increase in inventory this year is due to the increased contribution from our trial that we have to give to our clients at for the Pakhajan facility, right? But that has now led to our working capital increase, like almost the cash conversion has increased to around 200 days compared to 100 days in FY ’24, right? So what would be our guidance for the working capital days going forward? Like what days is it to remain?
Parag Jhaveri
It will come back to 110, 115 by March.
Shubham Jhawar
By March of this year, right?
Parag Jhaveri
Yes.
Shubham Jhawar
Okay. Sir another question was that in the previous calls, you had mentioned that we would like to keep our debt to EBITDA in the range of 2 times to 2.5 times or at max 3 times EBITDA, right? But as of now, it is 5 times EBITDA. So by when are we targeting to reach back to 2 times to 2.5 times EBITDA?
Parag Jhaveri
That’s not in my hand. I don’t have crystal ball, but we’ll definitely work towards that aggressively. We are expecting to come close to 3 times by FY ’26. And if still things change, I think we should be there.
Shubham Jhawar
Understood. Okay. Sir my last question would be, you mentioned that we are seeing some down one trend in the prices, right? But if I look at the investor presentation there, it is mentioned that our volumes had increased by 18% Y-o-Y. Is that correct?
Parag Jhaveri
Yes.
Shubham Jhawar
And our revenues are also in line, like it is more or less, the revenues have also increased by the same number, 16% Y-o-Y, right? So that means in this quarter, we did not have any impact from the downward trend in prices. Is that understanding correct?
Parag Jhaveri
No, that’s wrong. That’s why the product mix played a big role there. Some of the product we could get the better margins, better top line.
Shubham Jhawar
Okay. So basically that industrial thing has played out here as well, is what you’re saying?
Parag Jhaveri
Yes.
Shubham Jhawar
Okay. And how much would be the downward trend in prices impact on going forward, let’s say in Q3 and Q4 of this year?
Parag Jhaveri
See I also said before few minutes that we see the lower end price stability happening now. We do see somewhere some spark of price going up, but then again, spark goes up and price coming down. So there is some volatility at the lower band. But I think what we believe that the chemical pricing, this is at the bottom side, the below this, we don’t see the price to fall unless something dramatically happened globally.
Shubham Jhawar
Okay. And sir what was Pakhajan share of revenue this quarter? As in what is the revenue number from Pakhajan facility this quarter?
Parag Jhaveri
I don’t have that number, my dear friend.
Shubham Jhawar
Understood. Thank you so much, sir. This was all from my end.
Parag Jhaveri
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. We have a question from the line of Pradeep Rawat from Yogya Capital. Go ahead, please.
Pradeep Rawat
Yes. So sir, you earlier alluded our debt to EBITDA for FY ’26 would be around 3x. So is there any consideration for an equity raise for next phase of capex?
Parag Jhaveri
Well, we will take a proper call, appropriate call when we decide to go for the next capex. Anything is too premature to speak at this moment as the next capex round is not on the table as of now, unless and until we achieve 70%. And looking at the current scenario, we are only expecting to achieve that by the Q1 of FY ’26. So we will take at that time appropriately how we want to do that capex either through raising equity or whatever it is. But it will be too premature for me to comment.
Pradeep Rawat
Yes, understood. And for Pakhajan facility, what would be the EBITDA impact from the fixed cost for this quarter?
Parag Jhaveri
We don’t do plant-wise, we do the company-wise or working on margins. And that is definitely Pakhajan has contributed because it started producing more and selling more products. So it will be having a positive impact on our gross margins.
Pradeep Rawat
Okay, understood. And can you elaborate on the pricing impact for this quarter? What was the pricing de-growth?
Parag Jhaveri
At least 10%, 15%.
Pradeep Rawat
10%, 15%?
Parag Jhaveri
Yes.
Pradeep Rawat
Okay. Thank you.
Parag Jhaveri
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you very much. [Operator Instructions] We have a question from Mr. Aman [Phonetic] from Blue Sky Capital. Go ahead, please.
Unidentified Participant
Yes, sir. Since around 60% of our revenue comes from exports, and first question is mine, how much of revenue comes from U.S.A.? And we have already seen a shift in government over there. And Trump has been very clear in tariff increases across all, specifically in China. So what kind of opportunities or threats you see due to that shift for our company or our industry?
Parag Jhaveri
In fact, we are waiting for this information that how they are going to take a policy decision. That government that they are going to favor India or they are going to punish somebody, we don’t know yet anything. I will not like to comment on that. But I can say that U.S.A. has a sizable proportion in our export. If you look at the pie chart of export, U.S.A. and Europe both combined together is about more than 70% revenue come from industrial segment.
And we are very much optimistic on that, that the major growth will come from the matured market. Even though it’s grown by 2%, 1%. For us, the 2% is a very big growth in the matured market than the when we talk about a 6% growth, 7% growth in India, it’s quite sizable. And we believe that will be continued, whatever indications we have from our customers are quite positive on that side.
Unidentified Participant
Sir, in his previous term, we already had a shot up in our revenue also. So what was at that time our understanding in his previous term?
Parag Jhaveri
What was it? I didn’t get your question.
Unidentified Participant
No, in terms of previous term, it was clearly beneficial for us. Is that your understanding, right sir?
Parag Jhaveri
Yes.
Unidentified Participant
Okay, got it. That’s it from my side. Thank you.
Parag Jhaveri
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. We have a question from Darshil Shah from VT Capital. Go ahead, please.
Darshil Shah
Hi, sir. Thank you for taking my question. My first question would be, could you provide insights into which segment within the industrial chemicals division contributed the most to the volume growth during the recent quarter? And additionally, what are your projections and guidance for volume growth in this segment for the remainder of FY ’25, considering the current market dynamics and the demand trends?
Parag Jhaveri
See we — again, we don’t give a split what the segment is driving, but what we see that the industrial will be the driving force for the Yasho. And we foresee that the volume, major growth will come from the industrial chemical volume for us in this segment. I can say that we are seeing — has to be growth by about 30%, 40% volume growth to achieve the over sales target, what we have in our mind. And we have seen some delay in that happening, purely because of some of the approvals are taking a little longer time. But now, with some indication, yes, we are confident that we should be able to achieve a 60% utilization by end of FY ’24 — sorry FY ’25.
Darshil Shah
Okay. Another follow-up would be, what is the current status of customer approvals for the new plant? And additionally, could you also outline the expected timeline for finalizing these approvals, including any potential challenges that you foresee in this process going forward?
Parag Jhaveri
No, we don’t see a potential challenges. There are a lot of approvals. Sometimes, there is a big shift customers should take at their end. And we see that in that, they are taking a little longer time to go ahead. And when we are making a major decision to move away from your existing supply chain, it takes time, we understand. And certain places also, the customers are waiting for their final customer approval.
So it’s not only the customer approval, but they need to wait and get approval from their customer, so change of source. So those dual things are hampering. And the kind of information what we have, we should be started rolling out our product from end of this month or early next month. And the things should be in control within next few weeks or months.
Darshil Shah
Okay. Thank you for the detailed answers.
Parag Jhaveri
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you very much. We have a question from Utkarsh Somaiya, Individual Investor. Please go ahead, sir.
Unidentified Participant
Hi, can you please tell us what your sustainable tax rate will be and any plan for debt repayment in the next two years?
Parag Jhaveri
Well, we have to start repaying debt from April ’25. We need to start repaying our debt. So we are going to repay debt of about INR25 crores, INR30 crores in FY ’26. And then FY ’27, year-on-year we have to start repaying our debt. So it’s in our system and we are going to repay that.
Unidentified Participant
So out of that around INR580 crore debt that you hold, you will approximately pay INR20 crores to INR30 crores per annum. Is that right?
Parag Jhaveri
Well, out of INR580, only the INR330 is a long-term debt. Rest is our working capital, my dear friend. So working capital, we don’t repay. Basically, long-term debts will be start repaying.
Unidentified Participant
Okay. And the sustainable tax rate going forward?
Deepak Kaku
It’s the same, 25.4%.
Unidentified Participant
So this quarter, it was less, minus 26%. Okay.
Deepak Kaku
Because earlier quarter, we had made loss. So if you look at the H1 number, it will be 25.4%.
Unidentified Participant
Okay. And one last question. So the capex for Phase 1 you did was INR600 crores, of which INR400 crores was utilities. So if you decide to expand equivalent capacity expansion, then you will be spending only INR200 crores going forward in case you decide to expand?
Parag Jhaveri
Yes, plus/minus.
Unidentified Participant
Plus/minus. So ROCE on incremental capex will be very high.
Parag Jhaveri
Obviously, because we have said that we have bought a much larger land. We have done a basic infrastructure creation which should take care of the future needs. Our effluent treatment plant and other things has to be in line with that. Otherwise, the GPCB will not give us the full permission. So the money spent is on entire infrastructure. We have created our admin utility, warehousing, everything to take care of the future needs. So right now, what we need is only additional machineries and maybe a small building. Nothing beyond that.
Unidentified Participant
Perfect. Thank you so much, and good luck.
Parag Jhaveri
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you very much. We have next question from Sakshi Trivedi from Vijay Associates. Go ahead, please.
Sakshi Trivedi
Hi. Thank you for the opportunity. I have a question regarding your U.S. subsidiary as a distribution hub. What advantages does it provide for reaching American retail customers? And what product lines are you prioritizing for this market?
Parag Jhaveri
Well, the smaller customer over there and even some of the large customers are not comfortable to wait to plan 90 days or 120 days in advance. If you want to reach out to the end-user directly and to make a little more money, we need to have a stock there. And that’s what we have learned from our European subsidiary, where we could reach out to more customers. And even we are growing with them today probably because we have a stocking place in Rotterdam. So the same concept has been applied to the U.S.A. And we are expecting to start the commercial transaction from somewhere in January 2025.
Sakshi Trivedi
Right, sir. Just another follow-up question. Can you provide more detail about the regions or markets driving the robust export demand? And are there any specific customer segments or product lines that are performing particularly well?
Parag Jhaveri
Well, we are growing very well into our industry segment. That is doing remarkably well for us. And we believe that, that segment will take company through for next three to five years growth plan what we have in our place. So that segment per se is helping us to grow the market share to reach out to the larger customer base.
Sakshi Trivedi
Right, sir. One last question, sir. Are there any emerging or potential markets that you are considering for future expansion?
Parag Jhaveri
Yes, we do work with a lot of other countries, like Central America, Latin America. That’s part of the world we are trying to expand our reach.
Sakshi Trivedi
Okay, sir. Thank you so much.
Parag Jhaveri
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you very much. As there are no further questions from participants, I now hand the conference over to management for closing comments.
Parag Jhaveri
Thank you all. I would like to thank all our investors for their confidence in our organization and we remain committed to create long-term wealth for our stakeholders. Thank you. Have a good day.
Operator
[Operator Closing Remarks]