TTK Prestige Ltd (NSE: TTKPRESTIG) Q4 2025 Earnings Call dated May. 27, 2025
Corporate Participants:
Unidentified Speaker
R. Saranyan — Chief Financial Officer
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan — Managing Director & Chief Executive Officer
K. Shankaran — Whole Time Director
Analysts:
Unidentified Participant
Yash Jain — Analyst
Sameer Gupta — Analyst
Achal lohade — Analyst
Aniruddha Joshi — Analyst
Nikhat Koor — Analyst
Mustafa Khedwala — Analyst
Rahul Agarwal — Analyst
Presentation:
operator
Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Q4FY25 earnings conference call of TTK Prestige Limited hosted by Ambit Capital Private Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen only mode and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing Star then zero on your touchstone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Yes. Jain from Ambit Capital. Thank you. And over to you sir.
Yash Jain — Analyst
Thank you. Hello everyone. Welcome to TDK Prestige 4QS525 earnings call. From the management side today we have Mr. Vent with his Organ Management Director and CEO Mr. Shankaran, advisor to the board and Mr. Sharji Gopalan who thank you and overview sir for your opening remarks.
R. Saranyan — Chief Financial Officer
Very good evening. This is Saranyan here. Welcome you all to the earnings call Q4FY25 of TTK Prestige. Before I hand over the proceedings to our Managing director, I just want to remind the participant about the Safe harbor class. The discussion today may contain certain statements which are futuristic in nature. Such statements represent the intentions of the management and the efforts being put in by them to relay certain goals. The success of releasing these goals depends on various factors, both internal and external. Therefore, the investors are requested to make their own independent judgments by considering all relevant factors before taking any investment decision.
Thank you. I hand it over to Mr. Venkatesh.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan — Managing Director & Chief Executive Officer
Good evening and a warm welcome to all of you in this call. Let me start with a little bit of the industry background and then get on to specifics of the company. Overall at an economy level we see it being positive, stable economy and I think it’s favoring the industry as it moves into a positive phase of growth. There have been certain disturbances around the recent development of tariff rate between US and Indian market. But I think at large been a more stable market for us from an industry perspective we do see after a prolonged period of time the industry moving into a positive stage of growth driven by a lot more premiumization in the urban markets, an expansion of the markets into tier 2, tier 3 towns and a lot more aggressive demand generation being fueled by the E commerce channels as well.
So overall after a long period of time we believe that the market is coming back. Like we’ve been mentioning in the last few quarters. Market has started to be now stabilized at a positive growth level and that augurs well for the overall industry across both kitchenware and appliances as well. From our company’s perspective, we see a positive growth as we move forward. As we had mentioned earlier, we had challenges around the MFI channel, the rural channels and the CST channel, but we continue to grow well in general trade. We continue to grow well in our E commerce and large format stores as we move forward.
This positive growth augurs well as we move forward. We’ve also seen that there have been pressures on the raw material pricing which have continued to be sustained through the quarters and we see it sort of stabilizing as we enter into the new year. At an overall level, the pressures of raw material pricing have been through the quarter sort of stabilizing as we move into the new year. Exports have started to now become more robust during the quarter. From an overall quarter perspective, therefore, we grew at around 3%, our domestic sales grew at around 3%, total sales at around 4% including exports and our EBITDA at around 72.5 crores against the previous year of 100 crores.
What we see is that as I said, as the market starts moving up, we are leveraging the growth in the market and we are on a positive trajectory as far as the consumer demand is concerned. In fulfilling the consumer demand across various channels, various opportunities that we face. From a year perspective, we reported a 1.4% growth, around 67 crores of exports and around 2,400 odd crores of domestic sales, a total growth of 1.2% for the company and a debtor of around 339 crores against 386 crores of last year. Our margins as we speak stands at 13.4% for the full year and an operating margin of 10.7%.
Like we had mentioned before, we have started also some of the investments into our new cycle in terms of both capex and in terms of building capabilities for the future that will sort of reflect in the operating EBITDA as well as in the overall EBITDA as we look at it in general. Therefore, we see a robust demand coming back to the market and we’ve been able to sort of leverage that through various channels including our own stores as well as we speak, our current overall number of stores is around 667 and we are on the consistent mode of expansion across different geographies in a very targeted manner.
We’ve introduced stores around 44 SKUs in the quarter and overall around 191 new SKUs during the year. These new SKU introductions have also started helping us gain significant counter presence and sort of growth in the channels we mentioned and that’s been one of the levers that’s helping us grow. We’ve also been able to sort of close the gap in terms of some of the portfolios that we had earlier. And I think today as we speak, we probably would be leading in most of the portfolios in terms of the products as well, in terms of new product launches as well.
The Judge brand post its repositioning, we’ve been able to sort of stabilize the brand and the brand continues to grow. Well, it continues to be one of our growth levers and we would sharpen the focus on Judge as we move forward as well. So overall I think we would look forward to positive growth as we move leveraging on some of the channel strengths and our position in the market, continue to invest into some of the futuristic opportunities which we believe are available both in terms of internal capability building and also to strengthen our manufacturing capabilities enough so that we are able to leverage the demand generation as it continues to happen.
The growth is equally poised between kitchenware and appliances and we are quite confident about both the categories and sharpen the focus on some of our core categories where we are leaders. And that’s one focus that we believe would sort of help us strengthen our position in the market as we move forward. We are healthy on the cash that we have over the year. We had some payments that we had done in terms of capex dividends and buyback of equity shares as well Post that we still in a comfortable cash position. We also made some investments into Grameya Haas, one of the rural startups which we believe would help us understand the rural markets in this category much better and service some of the demand that comes from deep rural markets beyond the top 500, 600 towns.
And that I think would sort of be one of the investments that we would continue to be looking upon to see how synergistic it can be with us. So overall, I think it’s been a sort of a turn that we expect for both the market as well as for the company. We however, would continue to keep invested upon in both our capacity building as well as the capability building for the next few quarters. And we do believe that that would help us sort of strengthen our position in the next two, three years in terms of innovation, in terms of design, in terms of capacity building for our own manufacturing capability.
And that in turn would sort of help us strengthen our position in the market as we stand today. So overall that would be my sort of brief and look forward to your questions.
Questions and Answers:
operator
Thank you, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now Begin with the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touchstone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, Please press. And 2 participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. We will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question comes from the line of Sameer Gupta from Iifle Capital. Please go ahead.
Sameer Gupta
Hi. Am I audible?
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
Yeah. Yes.
Sameer Gupta
Thanks for taking my question, sir. Firstly, I noticed in the presentation that you have mentioned growth in the traditional channels is 10% and impact on MFI channels I may recollect is going to anniversaries from the next quarter onwards or once you FY26. So would it be a correct implication then that TTK prestige growth as a whole should revive more towards the double digit mass on the next quarter itself?
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
Well, I would be happy to have that. I guess I would say I don’t want to sort of look forward from that perspective but sufficient to say that it would be much positive in terms of. We don’t want to give a guidance in terms of growth but it would definitely be positive as we mentioned because we are seeing this offshoot happening quarter on quarter now.
Sameer Gupta
So other way to ask this question is that is there any demand that has been lapped up by the traditional channel which otherwise would have got captured in the MFI channel had that deception not been there?
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
The MFI channel is quite independent of the traditional channel because that’s a very different business model altogether and it addresses a very different segment of consumers that is more a slightly deep rural consumer which I don’t think the current traditional channels or the distribution channels are addressing at this point of time. So it’s an independent opportunity that has been created in the past which probably for structural and policy reasons today is not available for us to sort of cater to the demand.
Sameer Gupta
This is very clear, sir. Second question is on the consultancy expense that we have booked or soft operational expense as we are calling it. Even if we exclude the 16.3 crore, this other expense line item is up 20% and overall EBITDA is still down 8% on a standalone basis. Now just some color, are there any other one offs in these other expenses? Because EBITDA decline of 8% doesn’t suggest a very rosy picture. Right.
R. Saranyan
See Sanyan here. If you look at your own off expenses which is for the long term growth that’s almost 2% during the quarter. So if you add that I think we are almost at 11.9% against last year’s 12.7% of operating EBITDA. So the primarily is the one up which is pulling down your EBITDA margin.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
Said that I think there is some.
R. Saranyan
Cost increases that’s been happening because some of the escalations. What has been happening for the long term growth that is also coming into this the expenses the next as we are mentioning the next eight quarters you will be seeing a small dip in this ebitda. But going post that once we achieve whatever we are planning we should be able to see the improvement in the EBITDA.
Sameer Gupta
Okay. And this 16.3 crore or 2030 crore around for the full year expense. This is a one time expense that we do not expect to repeat in the coming quarters or there is still some more left which you are talking.
R. Saranyan
About the impairment number what is there.
Sameer Gupta
In the long term Strategy extends the 30 crore.
R. Saranyan
Yeah that will be there for next eight to 10 quarters. You will continue to see some expenses incurred around that that we have already indicated in January itself.
Sameer Gupta
Okay, so this 30 crore number full year basis will continue for the next two years is what you’re saying it.
R. Saranyan
Should be more upon. We are not saying because we are. We have indicated that close to 200 crores we will be incurring on soft expenses over a period of three years. That is what we have indicated in the stock exchange release as well that we did in the last quarter. So I won’t say it is only 30 crore. It’s overall 200 crores we are expecting in the next three years. I said the button and Shankar is here the whole expense to ensure that the company gets a top line growth more rapidly than it was. It is important to gain market share so we need to make some investments which are soft and we also make investment in factories or other places which are hard. So we have made a communication already investing crores to buy a hundred crores. Some will be appearing in the as low exceptional items. We’ll also accept savings. Also savings will be reflected in your EBITDA margin growth. Ideally you should assume that Upgrade post about 6/4 once you make complete all the investments.
Sameer Gupta
Got it sir. I’ll come back in the follow in the queue for any follow ups.
operator
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Achal loade from Nuvama Institutional Equities. Please go ahead.
R. Saranyan
Yeah.
Achal lohade
Good afternoon sir. Thank you so much for the opportunity. The first question, you know you’ve mentioned couple of times in the opening remarks with respect to the growth positive growth for the industry and for us as well. So is it Possible to get some more sense in terms of a any particular channel region or a category which is driving this.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
So at a broad level, I think all categories have now started coming back to growth as has been the trend. Appliances are actually growing faster than kitchenware and within kitchenware cookware is growing faster than cookers. I think in the order of magnitude that would be appliances followed by cookware followed by cookers. There is a resurgence of cookers that we are seeing for sure. So I think driven by premiumization as well. So I think that’s the first one from a category perspective. We are seeing a revival of all categories. All our core categories are reviving. I think that augurs well for us from a growth perspective.
In terms of geographies, there is a little bit of a faster growth that we would be expecting in the south markets that’s quite visible and that being driven a lot more by premiumization of the category. And some of the big categories are getting premiumized faster. So that I think would be the way I would look at as far as channels are concerned. We’ve seen quick commerce growing faster followed by E commerce followed by large format stores and general trade is sort of bouncing back right now, I think. So that’s the way I would put it up.
Achal lohade
Understood. And any particular reason for. You know, if I look at the growth number, the non stick cookware has grown 14% while cooker and electrical appliances have grown at 2 and 1% respectively. So any particular reason which you want to highlight and how sustainable is this?
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
No. So the numbers that you would probably see are total numbers which includes the impact of MFI or the rural channel. As we said, cookers and electrical appliances were key product categories that went into that particular channel disproportionately. So if you had to take that out and look at it, I think it would be reasonable. Of course, like I said, cookware leads the growth. But suffice to say that the number that you’re looking at from our perspective is including the channel. If you were to take that off and look at it, it would be a significant growth for both cookers and appliances as well.
Achal lohade
Would it be possible to get a sense how much, how large was cooker and electricals in the MFI for the quarter or for the full year?
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
I think we probably restrained from that at this point of time. Those are some internal numbers that we work at, but they are the impact. Impact has been significant for both cookers and appliances.
K. Shankaran
Just to clarify, if you remove this recent channel, I have died from both last year and this year we move more than 100%. Yes. Which is exactly equal to the industry. A little better than.
Achal lohade
Sorry, I. I’m not able to hear you clearly. Yeah.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
Netting off for the MFI channel, if you were to look at our growth, our growth would be hovering around 7%, which is. Which is reasonably good growth in our view.
Achal lohade
7% for the company as a whole.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
Right. At the standalone level.
Achal lohade
Okay, understood. That’s very helpful, sir. And one more question I had, you know, in terms of the market share, is it possible to get some sense in, you know, let’s say prior to Covid, you know, because Covid did create a swing in terms of positive and afterwards negative in terms of kitchen appliance. But if I were to compare you on your key categories, cooker, cookware, mixers, the gas, cooktops, how much fall in the market share we would have seen across these categories? Could that be more of 100 basis point or could that be 200 to 500 basis point? And what kind of market share gain would we look at over next three to four years as you implement your strategy, sir?
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
So we’ve sort of lost market share. I wouldn’t be able to put a number to it. We did lose market share over the few quarters, but suffice to say that we started regaining market share and we do believe as we move into the next few quarters with these sort of investments that we’re talking also we should be able to gain market share as we move forward. So we are on a path of regaining the market share. There has been loss of market shares in the past, not quantifiable in the call, but we would probably, we would like to convince you and we would like to place it on record that we are going ahead with regaining the market shares now, particularly in our core categories.
Achal lohade
Perfect, sir. Just one more question, if I may, sir. In terms of new category, you would like to highlight anything which we could imagine or we could see over next, say two to four quarters or. It’s still some time away.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
No, absolutely. New categories is still some time away. Like I said, I think we’re focusing on our core categories. We also identified a few categories in the appliance segment that could sort of grow. Ash fryers is one, for example. And there are a couple of more categories that would start scaling up as we look at it. Absolutely. New category entry is something that probably you would see only after a couple of more quarters.
Achal lohade
Quarters, you mean, Right. Not years. Right.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
You could say you could take a time frame of two years.
K. Shankaran
Our announcement passed we have very clearly said that we are going to stay strong with the core and any new product will be adjacent to that. We are not trying to get into totally new career like Rand or something at this point in time. What do you want to do? Gas within existing or portfolio, how those players in terms of product and markets or whatever we will be able to plug in. In fact we started seeing these results the last two quarters and we are happy to say that we have plugged in quite a few in the distribution area and we have gained market share as compared to what we were last year.
Achal lohade
Understood, Understood. This is very helpful. Sir, I will fall back in the queue. Thank you so much.
operator
Thank you. Participants, please restrict yourselves to two questions so that the management can address the rest of the participants as well. In case, if you have any more questions, kindly rejoin the queue. The next question comes from the line of Resha Mehta from Green Edge Wealth Services. Please go ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Yes, thank you. So just one question. You know the capex of 300 crores that we are planning over the next two odd years. So if you could specifically highlight, you know this would be for which product categories would be helpful.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
So this would like we mentioned this would be across the core category, strengthening our capacities in aluminium are quite strong. There are alternate materials like stainless steel dry ply which probably would, which are actually growing much faster at 15 to 20% growth and would require capex investment as we move. Also in some of our appliance categories we would like to invest as well. So a combination of appliances as well as some of the stainless steel trip like capacities that we need to build is where the capex would sort of go in. Also in terms of some of the modernization that we would like to bring in, including automation of plants that would help us gain far more significant cost efficiencies as well.
So it’s a combination of automation capacity expansion across new material and also in say kitchenware and appliances, also including renewable energy as well. We are also substantially increasing our renewable energy footprint. So that would also sort of help Us leverage the CapEx deployment to help us get more benefits on power and fuel.
Unidentified Participant
And you know last time we had mentioned that we had some product gaps, you know, in cookware and a few other categories. So have we kind of launch products to fill this product gap like for example cast iron and those kind of things we did not have in our portfolio.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
Yeah, so like I mentioned, I think two things that have worked for us. One of course the distribution expansion and plugging of the gap. The second is we sort of plugged the gaps in terms of a product portfolio, particularly in cookware and like you had mentioned, cast iron. Across the category we see multiple material alternatives that are emerging right now. We’re actually plugging all the gaps and more or less the gaps have been plugged. So I think by this quarter we would have seen a full fledged portfolio of cast iron, stainless steel, triply and all other traditional material as well.
As far as cookware is concerned, as far as cookware is concerned, we are quite, we meet the category and we’ve been able to plug, we’ve been able to launch a couple of new products as well. Appliances. We continue to sort of focus on small domestic appliances. Air fryers for example is one that I mentioned. The range of air fryers has increased. So overall we’ve done close to around 191Skus that we’ve launched in the last one year. So sort of, we’ve sort of completed our portfolio. That having been said, we will consistently invest upon new products to be launched in the future as well.
Unidentified Participant
And just lastly, you know, with this 200 crore investment that we are planning over the next eight quarters, would that mean that our EBITDA margins would also refer to more like a single digit kind of a margin?
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
We wouldn’t want to give some guidance on that. But suffice to say that it will be a little diluted than in the past because of these investments coming in in the form of OPEX nature. However progressively we will see the benefits of that also accruing to us through top line growth as well as cost efficiency is getting built in. So I think you would have to look at it from perspective where it would remain diluted from the past highs that we have sort of achieved. But those are into investment that will sort of progressively come back again.
Unidentified Participant
All right, thank you.
operator
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Anuddha Joshi from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead.
Aniruddha Joshi
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. So in terms of all the investments that we are doing in terms of CAPEX as well as opex, both the investments, so these are material investment and obviously you would have done the consultancy. So what are the kind of benefits that we are looking in terms of let’s say structural improvement in the sales or market shares or in a way margins. So whatever you can share, if you share it will be really helpful.
K. Shankaran
Okay, I can put it very simply, 360 degree benefit. We are looking at it. So there will be lag between what we spend now, what we benefit now. That’s why? You said that by the time the benefits overgrow the cost it will take at least four to five quarters. That’s why we said we’ll be proudly dilutive on margin but we’ll be not diluting on growth of the company as such. But our interview needs to not go below or periodically.
Aniruddha Joshi
Okay. And dilutive means how much dilutive we are looking at. Let’s say 200bps, 300bps. If you can indicate in terms of.
K. Shankaran
What I would say that means what were Our next to 2, 3, 4/4 result and the explanations that will give you rather than trying to say something futuristic at this point in time. Okay. Very positive that the directions we are going in terms of engaging experts from outside and the Helpers of the 360° of Directional Improvement this is about to occur and we are very positive about what we are doing at this point in time.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
So the way you could look at is we will definitely start to look at good growth as far as top line is concerned. Follow that up with cost efficiencies and I think over a period of time it would start then showing up in the results.
Aniruddha Joshi
Okay, sure sir. Understood. And what is the total capex plus of it that you would be incurring? I guess I missed that number additional.
R. Saranyan
No.
K. Shankaran
We have put a total okay. Of 500 crores to spend over 3 years. 3 years starting from the last quarter of last financial year. So this printout happen and we get in that threshold of investing something. We’ll invest and get back to you with your disclosures.
Aniruddha Joshi
Oh, okay. Sure sir. Understood. Thank you.
operator
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Pranit an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Hello Maritime. Thank you for the opportunity. So I was wondering regarding the judge brand, how are we planning on scaling it up? Because I understand that is one of the growth levers we want to pull when we want to grow our overall revenues. And you mentioned about the repositioning of a particular brand. Can you tell me what efforts, what exactly did you do in terms of repositioning it and in terms of scaling the brand, how are we planning on scaling it? Because of distribution or product range?
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
No. So the judge brand has a certain target audience which we believe is an extension to the core of what prestige brand is. To date that brand has been clearly positioned in terms of product portfolio and in terms of the distribution approach that we have taken for the brand in particular the Judd brand in particular over the last one year the portfolio have got very clearly defined for the brand and we’ve seen a good offtake therefore from cookware and from cookers for the brand. It will continue to grow with a different target audience and a focus on the Tire 2 Tire 3 towns.
The brand largely would be Tire 2 Tire 3 LED. It would have a distribution reach towards those set of geographies and that I think would be the key lever for the growth for the brand. And that’s what we’ve been seeing in the last few quarters of the focus that we put on the brand. So it would complement the prestige brand as far as consumer segment is concerned and expand the reach into Tire 2 type 3 towns for the company.
Unidentified Participant
Understood. So the prestige brand is consciously making the choice of making prestige brand in urban focused and Dutch brand into rural focused tier 2 tier 3 basis. Right. And.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
It wouldn’t be so clearly defined as we do have different consumers in the urban markets as well. But predominantly tied to tie three.
K. Shankaran
Yes, it will be income statement.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
It will be income statement based. Geographically it might have a skew towards.
Unidentified Participant
Tied to tight but the distribution still goes to general trade and exclusive exclusive stores. Or has it been changed a little? What is the split into distribution channel?
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
No, the distribution channel will be largely generated.
Unidentified Participant
Understood.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
But they don’t sell to too much of Judge. Judge would be largely focused upon general trade and E commerce.
K. Shankaran
Our focus is not a cannibalist pritchet brand which is a lot more premium and that is one. And the idea is that address those markets which you have not addressed so far in the last 50 years.
Unidentified Participant
Understood. So that I understand. And one more thing. We noticed that general trade soft muting performance. So E commerce has been growing significantly. How has it affected the overall company’s situation? And Quick Commerce also played a huge role in terms of development the overall market of E commerce around and commerce. What is the percentage of sales that the company might receive from Quick Commerce and Quick Commerce specifically And how do we plan on seeing that grow in terms of that and in terms of market share also.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
Sorry, carry on please.
Unidentified Participant
Yeah, I’m curious about was Quickcom was the reason that we had we lost a little bit of market share previously or and which segment did we lose and gain it back already which product is to use?
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
I think loss of market share had nothing to do with Quick Commerce or e Commerce. That was more a little bit of the competitive scenario that probably changed over the last few years particularly post Covid and our response to that way see our response to multichannel approach is quite clear. Each channel has got a very clear performance role in our portfolio and we are quite clear and strong in all the channels. We do very well in E comic. We do well in large format stores. We do well in general trade as well as an industry.
General trade is of slow growth given the cannibalization that’s happening at an industry level with E Commerce in particular. But I think that’s something that’s to stay. E Commerce will continue to grow faster than the other channels and it has some a little bit of a cannibalization effect as far as the industry is concerned. As far as the company is concerned. We equally focus on all the channels because we believe that each channel has its own growth path that needs to be addressed. The only thing that we make sure is there are no pricing arbitrage that is available between different channels.
So as a company we exercise control on pricing across channels so that each of the channels is available at the end of the day, wherever the consumer goes and buys, the brand is available and the brand is available to be serviced. I think that’s our philosophy. So. So we’re quite aggressive on E Comm. We’re quite aggressive on Quick Commerce, quite aggressive on large format stores and equally invested upon in terms of the general trade market as well. So I think that’s the way we would leave it to. The dynamics of various channels is something that we will see play out as it evolves. Quick Commerce currently is on a growth path. A lot of investments have gone into Quick Commerce and therefore the growth is definitely higher. But I think it is only adding to the growth of the categories in the industry. It’s not sort of cannibalizing each other at this point of time.
It’s increasing the distribution reach for the categories.
Unidentified Participant
But would you say that there’s been a cannibalization. Sorry to interrupt.
operator
Praneet, those were your questions. Could you please fall back in the queue?
Unidentified Participant
Yeah, sure.
operator
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Tom Kadaval from Jyojeet Financial Services. Please go ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Hello. Hi. I would like to know the outlook. Of MFI channel and the current mix. Of it in the overall channels.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
No. So we believe that the MFI channel as far as our categories are concerned probably would continue to remain subdued. Our exposure to this channel has become very limited today and is of immaterial consequence as we move forward. So from our perspective, I think we’ve taken the hit last year. So to that extent it’s of immaterial consequence to us as we move forward. The channel per se has got structural changes and policies that have been Implemented which we believe probably would continue to make the category remain subdued. As far as we are concerned, our industry is concerned.
Unidentified Participant
Okay, so could you give me a sense of the current mix of the channel?
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
In our perspective very limited. It’s less than 5. It would be less than it was.
K. Shankaran
Always 3 to 4%. It is now. The MFI was a channel which became very active from 201718 onwards. And you are the first to move in. You made enough indulge into that. But it stopped because of two reasons. One, the credit delinquent is happening there, therefore MFS has not been. Then there is a policy changes in the regulation. Therefore they are unable to extend loans. It’s fortunate that we have exposed thousands of crores, 140 crores in the past. We collected each one of them. There was no difference in the way we dealt with the MFA tender.
So it will take a lot of more time. If you look at the rural consumer, there are some people who are dependent on loads of that demand will not come back until the refinance happens. There are rural channels which does not depend on this one. They always put exactly town and buy or they do online also. So therefore the customers who are otherwise supplemented always come back to us. But you don’t know whether they’re coming to online or offline.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
You would not know.
Unidentified Participant
Okay, could you give. Hello. Yeah. Could you give a growth, revenue growth. Guidance for the next two years?
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
As a matter of policy we don’t do that. So I think we refrain from that.
K. Shankaran
Yes, it will give a reasonably good growth. That’s what you mentioned in the director’s report also. Thank you. Thank you so much.
operator
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Nikat Kur from Dollar Capital. Please go ahead.
Nikhat Koor
Hello. Thank you for the opportunity. So currently our store count stands at 667. So what is the target we are for the next two, three years with respect to store expansion? And this expansion will be into which markets? That is question number one and question number two is with regards to our contribution of new products. What is the contribution of new products in FY25 now that we have introduced 191 S3 versus FY24.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
So the first question on store expansion, I think we would continue to be aggressive on store expansion. While I don’t want to put a number to it, my aspiration would be 1,000 stores over the next few years across the country. And it would be largely skewed towards the top 500, 600 towns. So I think that’s the model that we would follow. We are on track for that. And I wouldn’t say a three year or a four year window, but I think 1000 would be a good number or a good business model from a store expansion perspective.
And that’s a doable number over a period of time. Sustainable number as far as NPD is concerned. We are, we have a significant portion of our growth coming in from NPD’s today. I wouldn’t be able to spell a number specifically in the con. It would be in the high double digits.
Nikhat Koor
Okay. And the store rationalization would continue. Sorry, the store rationalization would continue going ahead.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
Also over the last few quarters we rationalized our stores to that extent. I think as we move forward it would be more of addition being predominant. However, there would be a little bit of churn that keeps happening as in normal business, but in terms of rationalization of stores is more or less completed. We would be on a far more aggressive growth track as we move forward.
Nikhat Koor
Okay, so thank you and all the best.
operator
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Sameer Gupta from IIFL Capital. Please go ahead.
Sameer Gupta
Hi sir. And thanks for giving me the opportunity again on the judge brand. If you can just help us quantify what are the kind of sales that we achieved in FY20 franchise and how do you look at it outlook going forward? I’m not looking for any particular guidance, but this is the growth trajectory of this business.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
No. So like I mentioned, there are two different segments and we believe that the value for money segment is equally growing faster in the country today. I think we’ve sort of leveraging that opportunity and we do believe that will be a high growth opportunity for us. It still remains to be a small portion of our top line but we believe as we move forward the growth will be significant and continue to be significant.
Sameer Gupta
Okay.
R. Saranyan
Sorry, sorry. Just to add, I think currently our sales is around 68 crores last year which is almost 43% jump over the 23, 24.
Sameer Gupta
Okay, got it. This is helpful. Secondly, sir, just wanted to understand this nature of the soft operational expenses that you that you have incurred this quarter and going forward that you plan to incur that will hit the pnl. Is it AD spend? Is it? You know what, what is the nature of these expenses?
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
So the soft expenses is a combination of investment into R and D capability, into human resources, both across brand innovation as well as into some of the technical capabilities that we want and of course an increased marketing spend as well as the brand gears up from an overall perspective. So It’s a combination of investment into capability, like I said, investment into some amount of automation processes also go to market. So it’s a combination, all three put.
Sameer Gupta
Together and sir, is there any guardrail here? Let’s say the top line doesn’t come for whatever reason. Are we then to go slow here or. This is irrespective of whatever goals we are achieving in the coming quarters.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
We were futuristic in nature. We would not sort of want to do, but it’s a dynamic decision. However, 100% of this is not something that we would sort of commit to say if the top line doesn’t happen, we would exercise our sort of decision on that basis. The growth. Some part of this would definitely be futuristic investments because some of these, like I said have to be invested, e.g. r&D capability, right. Or putting bringing in talent. Some of these or some of the GTM initiatives in terms of distribution expansion. These will have to be done because I think they will definitely bear fruit over a period of time.
There might be some areas which probably we would exercise that choice. But I think directionally we should say that it is in our confidence that we will drive the top line growth and a very clear evaluation of the future impact of these investments that we are making these investments today.
Sameer Gupta
Got it sir, very clear. One last question. If I may squeeze in your contribution from the E commerce channel. E commerce plus quick commerce is essentially for FY25.
R. Saranyan
It’s roughly around 19 20% for the last year.
Sameer Gupta
That’s all from Mr. Thanks.
operator
Thank you. A reminder to all participants, please restrict yourselves to two questions. If you have any more, kindly rejoin the queue. The next question comes from the line of Mustafa Kedwala from Cube Investments. Please go ahead.
Mustafa Khedwala
Thank you for the opportunity. So you mentioned 19 to 20% on the revenue contribution from online this year, sir, what was it last year?
R. Saranyan
It’s always between anywhere between 15. See almost 30% will come between modern format and the E Commerce. So in one year the E Commerce will do better. Other year the modern format but between, between them it’s always around 13 30%. 30, 32%. So last year I think E Commerce was doing better which was closer to 1920%.
Mustafa Khedwala
And so it doesn’t show that our E Commerce is lesser margin or you know, we have to pass through more. There’s nothing of those shops.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
So there are no, there are no red earnings as those margins are concerned. I think it’s a high growth channel which needs to be played in a very disciplined, controlled manner, which is what we do. Okay.
Mustafa Khedwala
And so our cookware segment saw around 13.8% growth for the quarter. So can you just shed some light what led to this? Is it a one off or are we seeing some structural demand increase?
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
So cookware definitely as I said is growing faster now this might be sort of a slightly higher number to look at. But amongst the categories cookware would definitely grow and I would say from an industry perspective would probably grow in the region of 10% plus.
Mustafa Khedwala
And so why is it so that.
operator
Sorry to interrupt. Those were your questions. Could you please rejoin the queue? Okay, thank you. The next question comes from the line of Rahul Agarwal from Ikegai Asset Management. Please go ahead.
Rahul Agarwal
Hi sir, very good evening. Thank you for the opportunity. A couple of questions. Firstly on the KUKR side you said we are ramping up stainless steel capacity. Just wanted to know what’s the revenue mix between tri ply and aluminum right now and how many cookers did we sell in fiscal.
K. Shankaran
Very competition? What we can say is we increasingly selling more of triply than normal stainless steel. That is where the market is heading for giving numbers to drop in in your interest.
Rahul Agarwal
Okay, got that. And the second question was on the there some discussion which are happening around the soft spend in the hard spend. We are doing a 500 crores. Is it possible to give a bit more color on how would you measure the adequate return on these investments? Essentially the company traditionally has made a good amount of roce but because of weaker demand and current investments I think those numbers are trending downwards. We just want to regain that confidence that we are looking at at least a 20 25% ROI on whatever number we are spending of 500 crores.
Would you like to elaborate a bit on how would you measure and you know as the earlier participant asked, like is there a timeline in your mind in terms of how would you go about analyzing the returns on these investments? That’s also okay.
K. Shankaran
A little bit of background look at our company was 100 crores and it became thousand crores became 2000 crores. So we made a lot of investments in terms of people, capacity, everything and also had some some small time until at this point in time. But post Covid and after this startups coming into play and lot of innovation taking to Ghirandaram, we thought that what took us from 100 crores to 2800 crores may not take us from 2800 crores to 5000 crores. So if we have to have that objective we need to do something very differently from what we have been doing so far.
That’s why we have got expertise being built around everywhere. The investment is supposed to lead us to faster growth that you see in the past and get back to our mid teen margins which we have seen till 20, 19, 20. So this is the measure of investment. So I’m able to get my faster growth in the top end which itself by itself adds into my bottom line and some cost savings that is coming through. All these investments would get me back to the growth which is in liquid double digit rate and the 14, 15% EBITDA market which we are able to first time in the last five years back.
I think that is the measure we want to do. I can’t calculate the ROI and soft investment, hard investment. I am trying to drive my company to where it was.
Rahul Agarwal
Got it sir. I get that. Thank you so much. I’ll get back in the queue.
operator
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Tanesha from Dam Capital. Please go ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Yeah, hi.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
Greetings.
Unidentified Participant
Good evening sir. Just question.
operator
Tanay, you’re not audible. Please be a little louder. Thank you.
Unidentified Participant
Am I audible now?
operator
Yes.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
Yeah, you may carry on.
Unidentified Participant
Yeah, thanks. First question being, we did mention that, you know, CSD has been a little slow for us and subdued in this quarter. So what percentage of our sales would be coming from csd and if you could particularly highlight as to why is it causing this pain for us. And it’s also a common phenomena across the industry, across other kitchen players as well. So if you could just kind of give us some more flavor as to what is causing this problem.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
Like I said, it’s not a very materialistic contribution to the total share but the absolute growth from the channel has sort of got subdued after years of good high growth. Both MFI and CST are both been high growth channels and highly profitable channels which have sort of slowed down this year from an overall contribution perspective, not materialistic. And our exposure to them as we move forward is also not too materialistic. So it is a sort of a one year correction that probably sort of happened. The reason for this happening are different. MFI like I said has a different policy related one.
CST has been more in terms of the internal operation getting rationalized by the department. And that I think is an industry wide phenomenon. It is not very specific to TTK prestige or very specific to a Kuka category. It’s an industry wide phenomenon where there have been policy level operational controls that have been put in in terms of procurement and in terms of servicing some of these stores. So that I think is a more. It’s a sort of a corrective exercise, but it’s sort of some corrective exercise that happen at a government intervention level. So that is.
That’s the way we would look at it from a CST perspective.
Unidentified Participant
Sure, sir. And the second question is, you know, we’re increasingly obviously focusing our product portfolio towards appliances, wherein we’re seeing, you know, stronger growth out there. So could you possibly explain what could our mix be out there in terms of appliances? And could you explain how the competitive intensity is for us in this category given that, you know, there are a lot of brands who are present in this space as well.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
So our appliances that you would see is 50, 50, approximately 50 percentage of a total turnover. And that continues to be sort of a growth lever available. Having said that, amongst the three categories, appliance is very competitive, intensive. But I think we stand our own good in terms of investments that we have made with some of our partners in terms of manufacturing capabilities, in terms of indigenizing some of our categories. And that we believe would be a big strength for us as we move forward. In terms of competitive intensity, though it is competitive, it is price sensitive.
We would like to differentiate ourselves more from a premiumization perspective in this category, like we would like to do with both cookware and cookers as well. So that would be our strategy as we move forward.
Unidentified Participant
Sure, sir. And if you could possibly give the mix in appliances, what would the largest channel of sales be for us in appliances?
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
Appliances as a category generally gets sold more through large format stores and through regional chains in general. That’s a dominant channel. Having said that, like in any business, general trade would be close to 40, 45% of the business in any category generally it would be 40 to 45%. That applies to appliances as well. Appliances has a little bit of more leaning towards the large format stores at an industry level.
Unidentified Participant
Thank you so much.
operator
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of praneet and individual investor. Please go ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Yeah, thank you for the opportunity again. So I was wondering about in terms of the same small apprentices, previous conditioners. So how are we planning which segments have been the most profitable and in terms of price? I understand we want to premiumize. So are we going to operate with a specific price bracket in mind in terms of expanding our product range and to what extent of the small appliances are manufactured domestically unimported? Because recently I’ve seen that we started importing back from China. I understand we don’t do most of it, but can you give me an idea of what percentage of the smaller planes are actually indigenously manufactured or imported and how is this segment planned growth going to go and in terms of volumes, how has it changed in the last two, three years and how do we plan on changing going forward?
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
Small domestic appliances is high growth and we sort of. So we’ve done two things. One, there is indigenization happening as far as we are concerned in our appliances category. Indigenizing would be a big sort of a strategic lever that we would like to deploy across some of the categories that we would bet upon. So that is something that would be a continuous process. Some of the new categories and some of the new materials in innovation will sort of come from China and we replicate that and indigenous the production. That’s the idea. So we don’t want to be left out in certain opportunities that we get.
But having said that, our China exposure in terms of product is not very high. We are consciously ensuring that we have a better indigenization ratio that helps us both in terms of cost as well as in terms of control. And that’s something that we would follow as we move forward. That’s our small domestic appliances strategy.
Unidentified Participant
In terms of volumes, how have we said so far? Because I understand there’s a lot of competition in this. How is the overall volume growth in terms of these segments and where do we plan on growing? I understand we have 190 SKUs. We’re growing at a high rate. But what percentage of revenue is this right now and how do we plan on growing and what percentage is run through exclusive stores like. Because I’m curious in understanding most of these happen through E commerce and detail. Right. So what percentage of small appliances? What is the split between both of them? And how are you also planning on scaling this particular exclusive band outlets? And what is the product that is going to be inside that and how are the revenues for that also going to scale?
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
I think some of the questions are it wouldn’t be appropriate for this call to answer some of these questions because these are related to our internal growth matrices as well and for competitive reasons. All I can say is the category is growing. Well, the category is highly competitive, but it offers enough space for players to play it if you focus and drive it in a very calculated manner. And that’s what we intend doing and we’ve been doing as well. It is profitable at a broad level. It is profitable. So I think that is what I would say as far as these small domestic appliances are concerned.
Specific questions. I think it’s would not be Appropriate on my part to answer. Right.
Unidentified Participant
Okay, that’s understandable. Can you just give me a broad based on terms of strategy?
operator
I understand those were your two questions and we need to end the queue if you have any more. Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Achal Lohade from Nuama Institution Equities. Please go ahead.
Achal lohade
Yeah, thank you for the opportunity sir, once again. So the you know one question I had given whatever we have discussed now is it fair to say that we will probably look at more of a high single digit in the year one which is FY26 and maybe double digit over next two years as some of these strategies start leading with us.
K. Shankaran
You’ll state it, what you want to do.
Achal lohade
Sorry?
K. Shankaran
You stated what we want.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
I would say it would be a diluted position progressively improving.
Achal lohade
And second.
operator
Sorry to interrupt. You’re not quite audible.
Achal lohade
Yeah.
operator
Disturbance.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
No, not yet.
Achal lohade
Is it better sir, by any chance?
operator
Yes, a little better. Yes. Please be on your handset mode.
Achal lohade
Yeah, I’m on handset only just second question in terms of the Martins, you know once you’re done with the investment data here you write that you’re talking about going back to 15% the mid teens kind of a margin what we had prior to FY19. Have I heard you write sir?
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
No, no.
K. Shankaran
What we are asked, what do you. How do you measure the investment? What is the measurement investment directed towards going back to that meeting those it is the past and getting back to meeting margins that is a matter of success of the investment.
Achal lohade
Understood. That’s all from my answer. Thank you so much.
operator
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Praneet, an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Yeah, thank you for giving me the chance. Again just trying to understand the overall strategy in terms of scaling our exclusive brand outlets. So I don’t know much idea like at least how are the company, what are the segments to be operated by the company and company operated ones or franchises or which one do we plan on scaling And I understand once reached 1000, how do we do that? Right now I think we’re mostly concentrated in tier one cities and we want to expand tier two and tier three. Are all of these 400 going to be in those segments or also we’re going to do more in tier one also.
And do you think there is a saturation in terms of our stores already in the cities? That’s why we don’t want to scale there. Can you give me a perspective on this?
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
No. So I think the way I would put it is I think there are equal opportunities both given the way the existing markets are expanding, existing cities are expanding. There are enough opportunities for retail expansion in the current cities as well and also into some of the neighboring smaller towns as we move forward. So store expansion is geographically an opportunity across the country. And given the way the country’s economy is moving across, I think that’s a reality that we would see expansion across the country. I think that would be our approach as far as expansion is concerned.
Unidentified Participant
What about like the franchisee situation? Like are we right now mostly franchise operated? Can you give me a perspective on how these ownership structures run with the EBOs?
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
No, I think it’s a mix of both own and franchisee. I think like I said, some of these are very pointed questions probably which would be not be of competitive sensitivity.
K. Shankaran
If you want to invest in a vestor, you are welcome if you share all the details of what we what sheet investments is everything in a lighter way.
Unidentified Participant
Understood. Thank you.
operator
Thank you ladies and gentlemen. That was the last question for today. I would now like to hand the conference over to the management for the closing remarks.
Venkatesh Vijayaraghavan
So thank you. I think it’s been a quite engaging conversation and we would definitely look forward, interact with things, move forward and good times ahead. Thank you.
operator
Thank you, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, on behalf of Ambed Capital Private Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. And you may now disconnect your lines.