Refex Industries Limited (NSE: REFEX) Q3 2025 Earnings Call dated Jan. 27, 2025
Corporate Participants:
Anil Jain — Chairman & Managing Director
Dinesh Kumar Agarwal — Whole-time Director & Chief Financial Officer
Analysts:
Samiksha Ramteke — Analyst
Krishan Choudhary — Analyst
Nishant Gupta — Analyst
Rahul Gupta — Analyst
Vignesh Iyer — Analyst
Deepesh Sancheti — Analyst
Swaraj Gandhi — Analyst
Yashwanti — Analyst
Mehul Shah — Analyst
Samarth Shah — Analyst
Dipen Parekh — Analyst
Jairaj Jain — Analyst
Priya Jain — Analyst
Veemax — Analyst
Rahil Kothari — Analyst
Komal Iyer — Analyst
Amansingh Sahajsinghani — Analyst
Presentation:
Operator
Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Q3FY25 earnings conference call of Reflex Industries Limited hosted by Kirin Advisors Private Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen only mode and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the call, please signal an operator by pressing Star then zero on your touchstone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Ms. Samiksha Ramteke from Kirin Advisors. Thank you. And over to you, ma’am.
Samiksha Ramteke — Analyst
Thank you. On behalf of KIN Advisors, I welcome you all to the conference call of Physics Industries Limited. From management team we have Mr. Anil Jain, Chairman. From Managing Director, Mr. Dinish Agrawal, full time Director and CFO. Now I hand over the call to Mr. Anand Jain. Over to you sir.
Anil Jain — Chairman & Managing Director
Thank you so much. Good evening everyone and a very warm welcome to Reflex Industries Q3 and 9 and FY25 earnings conference call. Over the years, Reflex Industries have transformed into a diversified and resilient organization, consistently embracing innovation and sustainability at its core. First and foremost, I want to extend my heartfelt greetings to all of you on the occasion of the 76th Republic Day. It’s a privilege to address you all as we collectively contribute to India’s growth story. Before diving into the financial highlights, let me take a moment to reflect on some of the significant milestones that have defined our journey this quarter, including a few material business highlights still today. Performance highlights. Turning our attention to company’s financial performance for Q3 and 9 month FY25, I’m delighted to share that we have achieved robust growth across all business segments, underscoring the resilience and strength of our diversified business model. Let me start off with standalone results. Total income for Q3FY25 stood at 733.48 crore reflecting a growth of 140.71% year on year. For 9 month FY25, the total income increased 2853.44 crores, showcasing a year on year growth of 77.7%. Net profit for Q3FY25 surged by 200.12% to 59.4 crore. For 9 month FY25, net profit increased by 103.58% to 1 32.31 crores. Earning per share. Basic For Q3FY gender 25 stood at 4.7 up 162.56% while for nine months fi delici it’s at 11 rupees reflecting a growth of 86.44%. Next we move on to the consolidated results. Total Income Consolidated Total income for Q3FY20 Q3FY25 has reached 741.92 growth and 139.97% growth compared to the previous year. For nine months FY25 grew to 1874.14 crores up 78.38% year on year Net profit Consolidated net profit for Q3FY25 rose to 52.05 crores up 198.1% and nine months FY25 it increased by 85.98% to 110.46 crores. Overall, the core and ash handling business segment remains strong behind the growth of FX industries contributing to about 1,643 crores in 9 months FY25 and 683 crores in FY25 Q3 alone. Green mobility is contributing to 22.2 crores for 9 months FY25 highlighting the company’s focus on sustainable and future focused business initiatives. Green Mobility has also entered into a strategic arrangement with Gensoil Engineering Limited to take over 2997e card from Gensol and then leave it to Bruce Market. As we chart the path forward, our focus is firmly on capitalizing on strengths with an unrelenting commitment to innovation, sustainability and operational accelerance. Vicepost will lead India’s green transformation and drive meaningful change in the industries we serve. Every milestone we achieve stands as a testament to the trust and confidence of all our stakeholders and the unwavering commitment and dedication of our exceptional team. Together we are shaping a future defined by growth, resilience and a shared vision for a sustainable tomorrow. Thank you for your continued support, trust and encouragement today. Together we are confident in building a path forward for a long term growth and consistent value creation. Thank you so much. I look forward to engaging in a discussion ahead with all of you. We can now open for question marks.
Questions and Answers:
Operator
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask questions may press Star and one on their touchstone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and 2. Participants are requested to use handsets while asking questions. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. To ask questions, Please press star and 1. The first question is from Krishna Chaudhary, who’s an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Krishan Choudhary
Good evening, sir. Am I audible?
Dinesh Kumar Agarwal
Yeah, not very clear, but yeah, we can try and manage
Krishan Choudhary
Okay, I’ll try to thank you for the opportunity. And I have a few questions, sir. So first of all I would like to ask about the ash and coal handling business. In the previous con call, sir, we had mentioned that we had completed about 5 million tons of handling in H1. And the full year guidance was 18 million. So that comes to about 13 million for H2. So I would like to know, sir, how out of the 13 million, how much have we achieved in Q3 and what is the estimate if you could give for Q4?
Dinesh Kumar Agarwal
These are the strategic information I’ll give you. Anyway, I’ll give you data on this. We have completed 8.5 million tons of the work and we will cross this year more than a 10 minutes.
Krishan Choudhary
Okay, so for Q3 we have done about 8.5 million times, right?
Dinesh Kumar Agarwal
Yes.
Krishan Choudhary
Okay. And the. Okay, we surpass the given target also. That’s great. That great. And as I saw your presentation sir, you have also increased the daily handle capacity from 50,000 to 70,000, sir. So have we added new customers, new sites? And is this sustainable, sir, in the coming quarters?
Dinesh Kumar Agarwal
Yes, the current quarter is a peak season and it. It is sustainable.
Krishan Choudhary
Okay, great sir. And sir, I would also like to know that we have been able to increase our revenues in the segment a lot, sir. But the margins, sir, they are not increasing as generally when you increase revenues, the operational leverage also kicks in. But in our case the margins have been stable to a little lower, sir. Is there any reason for that? And can we expect some improvement in the coming quarters?
Dinesh Kumar Agarwal
We have started a lot of new plants and initially when we start a new plant there is a mobilization of team Effense before the real work starts in the plant. That is the reason overhead and other expenses will be more in the initial time which is get amortized once the full fledged work happens. So initially the cost which is incurred in the setting up of the new plant, I mean starting up the new work, each of the new plant because of that margin is dropping.
Krishan Choudhary
Okay, sir. And since you put in initial investments, these would be long term contracts like approx. How many years? If you could give a rough idea, sir,
Dinesh Kumar Agarwal
Anywhere between one to three years.
Krishan Choudhary
Okay, sir. Thank you. And secondly, I have a question regarding green mobility business of our Sir. So as we see, sir. Yes, sir. So In this quarter, sir, the loss has increased from 5 crores to 8 crores. So are this vulnerable loss or when can we expect it to positively contribute to a net surplus? This segment
Dinesh Kumar Agarwal
I think with the increase of number of vehicles, the time taken to get 100% utilization of each vehicle takes almost six months. So as we are increasing the vehicle, we foresee this loss to happen at least for next few quarters. While operating operationally we are profitable. But at level we are making loss. But in the next few quarters we’ll achieve profitability, sir.
Krishan Choudhary
Okay, sir. Thank you. And the recent acquisition also about 3,000 reviews from Blue Smart, sir. So just I wanted to know what is the idea regarding how would we monetize them? Would we rent them out to Blue Smart or will we use them for our own brand EVs? So what would be the monitor?
Anil Jain
They are a very strategic long term drive operational lease model where we have taken all the vehicles from Jimple and we’ll be giving it to Bluesmart on a dry per month basis lease to us. Hello.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from Nishant Gupta from Minerva Global Capital. Please go ahead.
Nishant Gupta
Thank you for the opportunity. Just wanted to understand what is the rationale of getting more capex heavy on the EV acquisition from Denso. Like you’re basically leveraging your company and giving the OPEX benefit to Blue Smart. So what is the rationale of acquiring that fleet and what is the kind of IRR that you are expecting? And are these like the new cards that you have received from them or. These were used and it has transferred at a lower price than the.
Anil Jain
So currently the vehicles are transferred at the book value to us. It’s basically an inorganic expansion of our fleet. We’re also looking at taking over the operations of these fleet going forward slowly. We’re going to start off with one city in a small number. And our long term aim is to convert this into completely operational fleet under us. Just looking at the long term drive. Once the financial approval comes, we’ll be able to come back on the. What is the IRR we are making on this? Currently it is still under negotiations because the Financial Transfer association happens.
Nishant Gupta
Got it sir. You have taken 315 crore of bank loan for this. So is there any part of internal approvals that will also go for funding this, you know, acquisition of 297?
Anil Jain
No, currently we’re just taking over the loan fully. There’s plus there’ll be a 40 crores of equity inclusion in this. Apart from the debt
Nishant Gupta
And how long Is the tenant with the blue smart that you have negotiated in this.
Anil Jain
Five years.
Nishant Gupta
Five years. Okay, for the next question is on the foreign solar power. So this wind power project, what is the total amount that you’ll be receiving from foreign power? You mentioned the megawatt, but the contract size is not mentioned in inr.
Anil Jain
I think that number is. We are not supposed to disclose that the value, only the megawatt. Okay. Does not allow us to disclose the value.
Nishant Gupta
Okay, but. But you’ll be executing it by 16 April 26. So the invoicing and the receipt of payment, I, I believe would be you know, by maximum, by what, May, June of 20. That, that might extend later.
Anil Jain
Can you, can you repeat please?
Nishant Gupta
Yeah sir, I’m think from the invoicing point of view, whatever, you know the, the amount that you’ll be receiving. So you’ll be completing this project for 16.4.26 which is mentioned in the document. When will you be receiving the, you know, payments from this?
Anil Jain
No, this will be completed only by March next year.
Nishant Gupta
Yeah, yeah, I understand but I’m just trying to understand how will the cash flows look like. Like is it kind of a lumpy payment which will come after the know the project is delivered in full or you’ll be receiving some milestone payment that is more from a cash flow point of view.
Anil Jain
There are multiple milestones. The first payment will start coming in from September this year.
Nishant Gupta
Okay. From September onwards it will come. But is it like safe to say that a majority of it will come after the project is completed?
Anil Jain
Yeah, I think in a safe manner. I would not say majority. At every stage wise there are various payment milestones. There are totally about 7, 8 milestones at every stage that we come in.
Nishant Gupta
Okay. Okay, got it. One final question. So you know, more from a long term perspective, not on a quarterly guidance, but more from a long term perspective, where can we see the growth rate in the top line and the revenues and the margins to stabilize?
Anil Jain
So I think on the ash and coal handling the revenue will keep growing going forward because we have a lot of contracts in our. And we also see margins getting better over there.
Nishant Gupta
Okay. Okay. Sir, any comment on the number? Like because margins have been, you know, up and down. So maybe 10, 11% is something we can see in the long term EBITDA margin.
Anil Jain
Yeah, around that.
Nishant Gupta
Okay. Okay, fine sir, thank you.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from Rahul Gupta who’s an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Rahul Gupta
Hello. Yes sir. My question is what role does technology play in the research green mobility operation Particularly in providing the easy services to corporates and aggregator platforms.
Anil Jain
Basically the technology helps us to scale up quickly and we have our own in house tech team which is building this platform. Basically the telematics is built in house. So technology plays a very important role in growth. Sir
Rahul Gupta
The next question is can you provide the insights for the future research and development initiatives under the power limited? And how will it align with our renewable energy focus?
Anil Jain
Yeah. So we are still in the process of developing a plan for R and D. Hopefully in the next two quarters we’ll be able to give a clear prediction on what are the R and D plans for us.
Rahul Gupta
Okay, thank you sir.
Operator
Thank you. Next question is from Viganesh Iyer from Sequent Investments. Please go ahead.
Vignesh Iyer
Thank you for the opportunity sir. And congratulations on a very strong set of numbers. So my question is on you know the fleet acquisition that we did from Gensoul and you know give it to Blue Smart to operate. So a few things I wanted to know. So if I understand we have our own business, right? Ev’s which we done. So what is the rationale of giving, I mean running the fleet on our own, you know vis a vis giving it to Blue Smart is our IRR coming out to be really good. When we are giving it on lease to Blue Smart
Anil Jain
We are a pure B2B player. Even in our regular EVs we don’t have any other than the Bangalore airport which we do B2C. All our other features deploy for B2B. So even Blue Smart is a very terrible B2B option for us. Where we have taken over the fleet from temporal and giving it to Bluefront on a day to day basis where we have a fixed revenue from these fleet it is up to Blue Smart to get customer acquisition, operate and etc.
Vignesh Iyer
Okay. Okay. Got it. Got it. Okay sir, that’s all. So much. I’ll get you. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Next question is from Dipesh Sanchetti from many of finance. Please go ahead.
Deepesh Sancheti
Yeah. Hi. Am I audible? Yeah. Okay. What are the growth drivers ahead for the company for the next year?
Anil Jain
Sorry, can you repeat please?
Deepesh Sancheti
I’m saying what are the growth drivers for the company for the next year.
Anil Jain
Like I mentioned that Ash and coal is going to be our focus. We already have multiple orders of And we’ll be growing business over there. And apart from that, EV fleet also is going to grow. As I mentioned earlier this year, by March we complete about 4800 vehicles. So both the sectors will grow for us next year. Also
Deepesh Sancheti
You said ASH as well as EV sector, right?
Anil Jain
Yes.
Deepesh Sancheti
Okay. And I think recently we raised capital from a number of investors. What has been the utilization so far?
Anil Jain
So these are being utilized for the regular business both in working capital and the CapEx requirement for vehicle uses, etc.
Deepesh Sancheti
So we haven’t reduced any debt or anything with this.
Anil Jain
We’ve reduced 150 crores of working capital.
Deepesh Sancheti
150 crores of working capital. Okay. Because the ROE. And what is the ROE expectation of the company going ahead? Maybe in FY27, will we get back to our 30 kind of levels or we will be still. I mean right now what we are doing.
Anil Jain
Can you repeat that? I think we are breaking up completely. Yes, I. I was asking about the roe.
Deepesh Sancheti
You mean for which year? Current year?
Anil Jain
No, I’m talking about Roe for FY26 and FY27. What is the expectation of the company?
Deepesh Sancheti
I think we will be growing around FY27. We could be somewhere around 2022. So we don’t. We don’t see Roe again coming back to the FY23 levels of 30, 35%
Anil Jain
Because the business growth is offset. If you see the PAT levels are growing on the order side and the revenue side also has increased a lot. Capital size also has increased a lot.
Deepesh Sancheti
And the PAT margins also we expected around seven, seven and a half percent. Only Queen had.
Anil Jain
I think it will grow up to 10% going forward. Between 8 to 10%.
Deepesh Sancheti
Between 8 to 10%. So what are the challenges which we see going ahead? Are there any particular challenges in terms of environmental clearance or any other things which we see?
Anil Jain
I think the only challenge for us because with the number of contracts growing, we have to really build a strong clean fix scale. We don’t have any environmental issues, etc. Instead we are the company who are helping the power plants achieve the environmental compliance. For us, scale is the only challenge.
Deepesh Sancheti
Scale is the only challenge. The orders are there, but only the execution is the main challenge, right?
Anil Jain
Yes.
Deepesh Sancheti
Okay. If that is so what in execution it’s only about the team or it’s also about the money which is going to be needed.
Anil Jain
Currently we are. We have enough money. It is only the team we need to execute.
Deepesh Sancheti
Okay, and what are we doing about that?
Anil Jain
We’ve already hired. We have doubled our number of employees in the last six months and hopefully we should be able to hire better people and more people by end of next quarter. Currently we are at 413 people from 296 last quarter.
Deepesh Sancheti
Because you’ve seen a phenomenal sales growth in the ash and coal handling business. Do we see the similar kind of a growth going ahead next year?
Anil Jain
Yeah, yeah I think we see better growth going ahead next year.
Deepesh Sancheti
If you can quantify it in terms of number on what kind of.
Anil Jain
We should made any number quantification yet but the growth will be good.
Deepesh Sancheti
Is an expectation of around 20 to 30% of growth will be reasonable.
Anil Jain
We cannot comment on that now.
Deepesh Sancheti
I mean anywhere around 20%. I mean is that okay? I mean or we are expecting more.
Anil Jain
We will see how to formalize this and bring it to the shareholders notice.
Deepesh Sancheti
Okay, so the growth which you have done up till now there will. Will that be in the same line? I’m just trying to take it out from you
Anil Jain
In an. Yes.
Deepesh Sancheti
Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from Krishna Chaudhary who’s an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Krishan Choudhary
Yes sir, I got connected. Sorry. So I just have a follow up on the colon ash handling business. So sir, previously you had mentioned that there some tricks from the government regarding disposal of legacy ash also in the body. If I’m right. So is there any update or progress on that? Sir?
Anil Jain
Sorry, can you repeat your question? We can’t hear you
Krishan Choudhary
Sir, previously you had mentioned that there’s a push from the government regarding the disposal of legacy also the pawns and water bodies.
Anil Jain
So it is continuing. There is no change in the room.
Krishan Choudhary
So have we seen sir some on ground execution of that
Dinesh Kumar Agarwal
Sir, it is being seriously implemented by all the power plant including all the government.
Krishan Choudhary
Okay, so we are currently doing that also sir.
Dinesh Kumar Agarwal
Yes, because of that only business is happening.
Krishan Choudhary
Okay. Okay. Thank you sir. Answer Regarding the power trading business sir. So why is there so variation in the quarterly numbers is because of the seasonality like factors in that particular segment or what?
Dinesh Kumar Agarwal
We are not focusing more on that now because the margin is too low and we have a good opportunity in other businesses and our concentration is there in the businesses where higher margin is there. Our trading remain will not be a focus further and we’ll be continuing focusing on the other business.
Krishan Choudhary
Okay, sir. And regarding the newly incorporated subsidiary, sir, Ben being Defects Power limited So how do we plan to produce that? Like we have already given one third of the equity to outside partners. So how would be that benefit to the our main company Service
Dinesh Kumar Agarwal
X. That is a synergy and we are both part. That is the reason we brought a expert into the as a partner and we’ll be working together for growth of division.
Krishan Choudhary
Okay, sir, and my last question, sir, like we have multiple businesses. So are we planning some sort of a B merger in the coming years or have we moved on that, sir?
Anil Jain
No, we have not planned anything now. But we’ll come back if you have a plan.
Krishan Choudhary
Okay, thank you very much. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Next question is from Ditesh Sancheti from Manya Finance. Please go ahead.
Deepesh Sancheti
Yeah, just regarding your segmented results. When I was seeing the segmented results on profit and loss before the interest and tax. If something mentioned as corporate. If you can just elaborate on that.
Dinesh Kumar Agarwal
Which one. Can you repeat this?
Deepesh Sancheti
In the segmented results of the consolidated one, there is something mentioned in number two of corporate.
Dinesh Kumar Agarwal
Corporate. There is the corporate overhead which is not allocated to any of the specific segments.
Deepesh Sancheti
The corporate overhead, right?
Dinesh Kumar Agarwal
Yeah. These are the all corporate expenses which is not directly identifiable to any segment.
Deepesh Sancheti
Okay. So I mean if sudden increase, can I allocate it to the increase on number of people which you just mentioned?
Dinesh Kumar Agarwal
Number of people. There is a technology advancement is happening. There is a technology expenses because we are. Since we are scaling. There is a development of technology, implementation of new technologies also happening. There is a. I mean because of the people. There is a. Multiple offices are being set up. Multiple things are there which is not directly identifiable to any specific segment.
Deepesh Sancheti
Okay.
Dinesh Kumar Agarwal
Has already been allocated to specific.
Deepesh Sancheti
Okay. And if I can come to your EV business, How does your EV business work? You give the cars to Bluesmart and Now Bluesmart hires it to the corporates. How does the business work? If you can just elaborate on that.
Anil Jain
We have a B2B business where we give vehicles to large corporates for their employee transportation. We do both technology and the vehicles for that Bluesmart is a drive is where we are given only vehicles to Bluesmart. They will have their own drivers and operations and they will do it for B2C. The customer acquisition will be their scope. So for us it is a B2B2C for Bluesmart. And all of the customers are also direct B2B.
Deepesh Sancheti
Okay, so B2B clients are ours, right?
Anil Jain
Yes.
Deepesh Sancheti
And Blue Smart, we have a stake in them. And that’s B2C happens from the Blue Smart.
Anil Jain
No, no, no. Blue smart is also B2B customer for me. For me, Blue Spot is the customer to whom I’m giving vehicles on long term driving operation lease. I have, I have no, no obligation to get any customer for us.
Deepesh Sancheti
You, you don’t have any stake in Blue Smart? Hello.
Anil Jain
No, we don’t have.
Deepesh Sancheti
Okay, the company does. Company. Other promoters don’t have any stake in Blue Smart. Right.
Anil Jain
The company doesn’t have. The company doesn’t have.
Deepesh Sancheti
What about the promoters?
Anil Jain
Promoters don’t have. Promoters through one of their funds have a very small scale which is very negligible. Less than 1%, less than half a percent.
Deepesh Sancheti
And how do we, how do you plan to scale this business?
Anil Jain
We are, we are continuously getting more and more B2B customers. So we are. Our focus is going to be B2B customers.
Deepesh Sancheti
And if you can just mention how, I mean how, for how long are these contracts? I mean does the vehicle life.
Anil Jain
Between one to three years. And blue SWAT is five years contract
Deepesh Sancheti
One to three years. Okay.
Anil Jain
Yeah. B2B contract for between one to three years.
Deepesh Sancheti
One to three years. And what is the margin profile in that?
Anil Jain
So it depends. Different customers have different way in which we build them. Some are trip basis, some are monthly, some are number of hours. It’s a number of kilometers on average. We have close to about 20% gross margin on them.
Deepesh Sancheti
Yeah, because I mean something which I was since that is doing so well, I mean why would the company actually go into business? And that was one of the question that how do we plan to scale it? Because
Anil Jain
It is in a subsidiary company and business is growing in a subsidiary company directly. And again, if you look at our coal and ash also is a logistics business where I’m only moving the ash and coal from one place to another. I’m doing the logistics here. Similarly EV is also logistics business for me. Yeah, it’s a complete operational. So the expertise of our operational efficiency can be at both the paces. I mean, they are in line with our original business
Deepesh Sancheti
So all these big profits which we give are we giving them with the drivers, I mean for the handling the stuff or only that we are giving the cars
Anil Jain
For all the B2B customers. We have drivers which we have our own driver and we operate the cars for them. We do charging, etc everything for them.
Deepesh Sancheti
Okay so basically fleet management.
Anil Jain
Okay fine.
Deepesh Sancheti
Thank you so much.
Operator
Thank you. Next question is from Swaraj Gandhi who’s an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Anil Jain
Thank you. Hello? We can’t hear you.
Swaraj Gandhi
Hello. Now
Anil Jain
You’re not clear.
Swaraj Gandhi
One minute. Now I’m audible. Hello? Hello? Hello.
Anil Jain
Yeah, you’re not very clear. Can you redial please?
Operator
One minute. Mr. Gandhi, if you are on a hands free request you to use the handset and try. We can’t hear you. You sound very low and muffled.
Swaraj Gandhi
Oh okay. Okay, let me. Hello?
Anil Jain
Now can you dial in again please? I think we can’t hear you, sorry, your voice is very musc. Hello? Hello, can you answer the. Dial again, we can’t hear anything.
Operator
Mr. Gandhi, we request you to rejoin disconnect and call us back maybe from a different number. We’ll move to the next question. The next question is from Yashwanti, from Kojin Finvest. Please go ahead.
Yashwanti
Hello?
Anil Jain
Yes.
Yashwanti
Am I audible?
Anil Jain
Yeah, you’re audible?
Yashwanti
Yeah. Basically I just wanted to know that. Am I audible?
Anil Jain
Yeah, you’re audible now.
Yashwanti
Yeah. So just wanted to understand, you know in the coal and I had been considering the government focus on clearance and also the need of ash by the construction industry. That is one. And secondly as my previous colleague earlier you asked this question but then when we can see this margin settling upon 11 or 12% overall.
Anil Jain
So as you, as we told earlier also that ash and coal business is something which will continuously happen because thermal power plants are here To stay, the coal will be burned, ash will be generated. While there’s enough legacy ash for the next three few years, regularly ash is being again generated and not being able to dispose of on time. They go back and get filled into the response. So this business I think will be sustainable and continuously growing from here on. For us, the margins I think in the next one or two years will get settled between 8 to 10%.
Yashwanti
Okay, so we are looking only up to the 10% and excluding beyond 10% as we are already quarters we have reported. Sir.
Anil Jain
Sorry.
Yashwanti
Okay, that’s it for myself. All the patients should already answer. Thank you sir.
Operator
Thank you. Next question is from Dipesh Sancheti from Manya Finance. Please go ahead.
Deepesh Sancheti
Couple of follow up questions. One, are we planning to take the EV business and India
Anil Jain
Or have we already taken in Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai and Blue Smart will be also at Delhi. We also started some trial in Pune and Mumbai. Wherever there are large B2B customers, we’ll be moving. We’ll be taking our business over there.
Deepesh Sancheti
Okay. And for the coal handling and ash handling, do we have, I mean are there any listed competitors or are there any competitors? For us
Anil Jain
There are no listed competitors. There’s one competitor by name, ashtech which is an organized player. Apart from that, most of the players are unorganized.
Deepesh Sancheti
Okay. Hashtag and otherwise there’s only an organized pair which we are competing with. Right. So we pose a significant advantage over them.
Anil Jain
Yeah, sorry.
Deepesh Sancheti
I mean what is our mode that we have a significant advantage over the competition?
Anil Jain
We. We have multiple usps. That is the only reason all the power plants prefer to work with us. When we are 100% compliant, we take care both in terms of the level compliances and also other safety compliances with respect to the drivers who operate. And also they are all medical ESIP compliance. Then on the technology we provide, also the technology like 100% the GPS for each of the disposal trips. 100%. We have a control center to monitor each of the disposal. We provide all these compliances to each of the power plant where we work. And that is the USP we carry compared to other competitors.
Deepesh Sancheti
So how big is this market of ash and soda hand And what is the market share right now which you have?
Dinesh Kumar Agarwal
Very, very, very, very small. It is one of the large market. In earlier call Mr. Anil has shown.
Anil Jain
Yeah, I think there are totally 175 thermal power plants across India. And we are operating in less than about 30 plants currently. And even in these 30 plants we are like one among those few operators unorganized there. We are only now entering into these semi power plants. So the opportunity is very, very large. And again I think close to about 1.7 billion metric tons of legacy ash is available which has to be disposed of. And every year we are generating close to about 800 million tons of coal is being burned. Close to about 300 million tons of ash is being generated every year.
Deepesh Sancheti
Wow. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you. That was really helpful. Thank you.
Anil Jain
Welcome sir.
Operator
Thank you. Next question is from Mehul Shah from Samarth Capital. Please go ahead.
Mehul Shah
Hello. Thank you. My question is could you provide insight into your capital allocation strategy?
Anil Jain
Hello. Now it’s louder.
Mehul Shah
Yeah. Okay. My question is could you provide insight into your capital allocation strategy especially with ongoing and upcoming investment in green mobility and power at Reading.
Anil Jain
So for green mobility we have assumed you’ll be investing close to about. Can you hear us? Hello.
Mehul Shah
Yes, ez. Yeah.
Anil Jain
So currently I think we’ll be investing close to about 200 crores in our subsidy for electric vehicles and green mobility business. And we require close to about 300, 350 crores working capital for our ash handling business.
Mehul Shah
Okay. And how is Reflective Grain mobility operationally preparing to integrate the newly acquired like 2,997 elites? And what challenges do you anticipate during this transition?
Anil Jain
It’s a very clear dry lease, long term dry lease, dry operation lease with Blue Smart. We don’t foresee any challenges in this. It’s a clear monthly fixed payment which should be receiving, sir. And it is waiting for financial and regulatory approvals.
Mehul Shah
Okay. My last question is what measure has been taken to improve the efficiency and sustainability of the ash and coal handling segment?
Anil Jain
We have become one of the largest organized player in the country today So I think this business is only going to grow from here. If you can see from earlier last year we were operating in port side power plants to service can show the kind of growth we are seeing and the opportunity lying in front of us.
Mehul Shah
Okay, that’s it. Thank you so much.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from Deepen Parikh who is an individual investor. Please go ahead. Deepen Parek, you may go ahead. There seems to be no response from the line of Mr. Deepen Parekh. We’ll move to the next question. The next question is from Samadh Shah who’s an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Samarth Shah
Hello. Am I audible?
Anil Jain
Yeah, you are audible.
Samarth Shah
First of all, I’d like to congratulate the management for giving a spectacular result. I’ve been an individual investor in this company since the last three, three and a half years. So I’m very thankful to you all for creating abundant wealth. I have a couple of questions. Firstly, I wanted to know the breakup of coal and ash handling. Like how much percentage of revenue goes for coal handling and what is the percentage for ash handling?
Anil Jain
Because most of our logistics is done two way, we are not able to exactly break the exact revenue from each of this. But we are working on that. Hopefully from maybe one or two quarters down the line we will be able to separately segment this also. Okay. Because I think.
Samarth Shah
Right, right. Because in one of the filings you had mentioned that you are more trying to increase your dependency on ash handling and slightly reduce the coal handling. Is it right?
Anil Jain
Yeah.
Samarth Shah
Okay, fine. And one more thing. In the last investor PPT, the number of daily tons per day was 50,000. Now it has been increased to 70,000 metric tons per day. So I’d like to know whether the same kind of growth can be expected in the coming quarters and the years or it will be like stable because H2 we were supposed to do like two, two and a half times of H1. Can we expect a similar kind of growth trajectory in the coming quarters?
Anil Jain
I think next quarter we’ll be able to achieve this kind of numbers because we have already scaled up with 70,000 tons a day. But I’m not sure if this will be. The number will keep growing from here, so we’ll be able to achieve this.
Samarth Shah
Yeah. And one more question. In your investor vpt you have mentioned the states in which current as handling is going on. It is roughly around 10 to 12 states. And you had also mentioned that you were going to add like 10 new states. So how much Penetration can be expected in the Q4, like from 12 to how many number of states can we enter in the coming quarters? Like in say next one year
Anil Jain
We’ll be covering majority of the state in another six months time. Currently we have a in this quarter also have started new states and already confirmed order is there in another two states. Two new states in this quarter. And out of the total states in India, few states do not have a thermal power plant. Anyway, we cannot touch that state, especially in the northeast. But we’ll be covering the majority of almost all the states in India in another six months.
Samarth Shah
Right. Thank you, sir. And that’s it from my side. Wish you all the best in the coming quarters and coming years. Yeah, thank you.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from Deepen Parikh, who’s an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Dipen Parekh
Hello, is my voice.
Anil Jain
Sure.
Dipen Parekh
Thank you. So almost all the questions have been asked, but just to know whether we are working anywhere for the green hydrogen ecosystem, like many big corporates are about to start their production for green hydrogen things and do we have any kind of planning feature to supply for material, electrolyzers or anything and yes, sir, anything.
Anil Jain
Okay, sure.
Dipen Parekh
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Next question is from JRA Jain from JJ Capital. Please go ahead.
Jairaj Jain
Hello. Thank you for the opportunity. So my first question would be like can you double?
Anil Jain
Your voice is very feeble. Can you be a bit louder please?
Jairaj Jain
Hello, can you hear me?
Anil Jain
Yeah
Jairaj Jain
Am I audible?
Anil Jain
Yeah, it is audible now, sir.
Jairaj Jain
Okay, thank you. So can you elaborate on the strategic rationale like you can say about the under acquisition of around 3000 EVs from Genso, how will the company position in the electric vehicle ecosystem?
Anil Jain
Like we have told multiple times on the call today that it is a long term driveway operation lease where we have acquired the vehicle from Jensol and giving it to Blue Smart as a company, we are a B2B operating company. So this is also B2B transaction. This is waiting for regulatory and finance approval. Once this is done, we will be ready to operate this vehicle.
Jairaj Jain
Okay, thank you. And you would be knowing that the budget would be coming soon. So are there chances of any upcoming regulatory changes or policies in the power mobility sector that might impact your business operation?
Anil Jain
No Nothing will impact us. Okay. We are only a fleet operator.
Jairaj Jain
Okay, thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Before we take the next question, a reminder to participants that you may press star and one to join the question queue. Next question is from Priya Jain from Green Capital. Please go ahead.
Priya Jain
Hello. Am I audible?
Anil Jain
Yes, please go ahead.
Priya Jain
Good evening sir. Firstly very congratulations for good set of number. So my question is actually I just wanted to understand how does plan to mitigate risks associated with coal procurement and as disposal given the environmental challenges.
Anil Jain
So we are only helping the thermal partners achieve the environmental by removing the ash from the thermal power plant we’re helping them to reduce the legacy ash and the ash which they generated is being disposed in an environmentally safe manner. So we are only an environment compliant company for them.
Priya Jain
Okay. So one more question. Could you shed some light on the competitive landscape in the green mobility segment and how reference Green Mobility differentiate that
Anil Jain
Currently we are a B2B segment. Our major competitor would be Lithium and Snappy and Ecos Mobility. They operate also B2B for B2B customers in electric vehicle in different states.
Priya Jain
Also wanted to understand that are there any upcoming regulatory challenges or changes or policies in the power and mobility sector that might impact your business operation?
Anil Jain
We are only a fleet operator so we don’t see any availability challenge for this.
Priya Jain
I have one more question like how does Refi industry plan to balance growth in its diverse business segments while maintaining a strong focus on sustainability.
Anil Jain
So I think all our businesses are focused on sustainability. If you look at electric vehicles so. And all these businesses are growing independently. So I think the growth is going to happen continuously.
Priya Jain
Okay, thank you sir. That’s fair enough. Thank you so much.
Operator
Thank you. Next question is from vmox from Goyam Labdi Fintech. Please go ahead.
Veemax
Thank you for the opportunity. So first of all congratulations for the event for presenting. So I have a question that as I can see there are majorly four businesses, right? And as you mentioned that you will be left focusing on this power building, right? So is this good to Think that we can remove that business going ahead. And I can also see that there is very less number of interest in the reference gas business as well. Right. So how it is nice for these two? I think we are literally focused on ash and co handing and this green P2B business.
Anil Jain
Yes, our focus is majorly on ash and coal handling and gray mobility. Other businesses are going on but the growth for them are very limited. Power trading is a very low margin business so we have not been focusing much on that. Refuge and gas is also very limited market so the growth is very limited in that.
Veemax
Okay so okay my next question is like you mentioned that you are majorly in the logistics segment. Right? So is it like are we exploring any other business in the same segment where we move the things from point A to point B? Any. Anything.
Anil Jain
Okay.
Veemax
Okay. That’s it. Thank you. Thank you sir.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from Rahel Kothari from Essential Research Partners. Please go ahead.
Rahil Kothari
Thank you sir for the opportunity. Sir, one of the my question is what is the current order book in call and S handling business and second one is the one of our earlier control. You said the growth of Concord and S handling business we will be growing 30, 40% CAGR for next year. So do we still hold the that growth guidance?
Anil Jain
Yes, we are still holding to that growth and currently the on the order book guys we have not reported the order book to the exchanges. So yes, we have a very strong order book in hand.
Rahil Kothari
Okay sir and sir, last question is my sir, what is the next few years? 25, 26 around guidance growth guidance.
Anil Jain
Yeah, I think we are growing at the same pace what we mentioned earlier and we are confident of achieving that, sir.
Rahil Kothari
Okay sir and sir, one last question. Sir, revenue from the top 3 or top 5 customer in terms of total revenue it was 70% in FY25 annual report.
Anil Jain
Sorry
Rahil Kothari
Sir, if revenue from top 3 or top 5 customer in Terms of total revenue it was 70% for FY24 annual report.
Anil Jain
No sir. Yes sir. In annual report. Easy man.
Rahil Kothari
Last year. Yeah.
Anil Jain
Yes, sir. Yes. Yes, sir. Current year the revenue will be very diversified.
Rahil Kothari
Okay, sir. Thank you so much, sir.
Operator
Thank you. Next question is from Komal Ayer from NVG Investments. Please go ahead.
Komal Iyer
Good evening, sir. Could you explain your rational for supplying the power wind projects for torrent power? I mean, what is the rationale of getting into that business? Because that does not sync with any of your other businesses.
Anil Jain
So it is an opportunity we got for the renewable wind energy business. That’s why we set up a separate subsidiary under which we are trying to do this business. We see the opportunity in renewable energy is going to be very large. So we are working on this. And we got a good partner who can. A good technical partner who can help us grow this business.
Komal Iyer
But you will just be doing the part of transportation or you’ll be working as a EPC for his wind power project.
Anil Jain
No, no. We’ll be only supplying the OEM supplier to the turbine.
Komal Iyer
Only the OEM supplier. So it will be a kind of trading business from you. From where you will be procuring the equipment and then supplying to torrent power. Transporting to torrent power. Right?
Anil Jain
Yes.
Komal Iyer
Okay. And what kind of return are you expecting in this kind of business?
Anil Jain
Maybe a gross margin of 48%.
Komal Iyer
Okay. Thank you, sir.
Operator
Thank you. Next question is from Rohit Kumar, an individual investor. Please go ahead. Rohit Kumar, you may go ahead with the question. There seems to be no response from Rohit Kumar. We move to the next question. Next question is from Krishna Chaudhary who’s an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Krishan Choudhary
Yes, sir. Thank you for the opportunity again. Sir, I have a question regarding the trade receivables like in the previous quarter.
Anil Jain
Can you be a bit louder please? Sir.
Krishan Choudhary
Yes sir, I have a question regarding the trade receivable. Sir, in the previous quarter there had been a considerable jump in the trade receivable. So understand because of the increase in revenue. But can you give some highlights regarding what is the cash mergen cycle for the this revenue?
Anil Jain
Earlier also I’ve explained this receivable to collection cycle. Any billing for a particular month, certification and other thing Attempts takes around 20 days. After that, after that again a checking process and if some of these billing process finalizes and happens which takes seven to eight days with the collections collection some. Some of the collections come in 30 days, some takes 60 days, some of the collections take 65 to 70 days. Anywhere between the 90 to 97 days in the collection. Correct. Current collections revenue to collection tax.
Krishan Choudhary
Okay sir, and one more question sir, you have mentioned that you have a segment of solar power also. So what do we do in that? Like we have minimal revenues from that. And what is the future outlook you have on this segment? Sir
Anil Jain
There’s only one solar power plant which we’ve been having for many years where the PPA is trying with the discom. So we are not planning to add anything over there.
Krishan Choudhary
Okay sir. And so this would remain constant with revenue that we are currently getting. It will be similar line sir for many years.
Anil Jain
So another 12 years CPA spending. So this revenue will keep coming for the next.
Krishan Choudhary
Okay. Okay. Thank you sir. Thank you for addressing my question sir.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from Aman Singh Singh Johnny from Profit K Capital Services. Please go ahead.
Amansingh Sahajsinghani
Hi sir. Am I audible?
Anil Jain
Yeah, you’re audible.
Amansingh Sahajsinghani
Hi sir. So congrats on good set of numbers. Actually join call a bit later. You can skip to answer the question. I’ll and read the transcript. So I was trying to figure out a little more about the deal that I done of with the with the engineering regarding the ev. So it was already leaving. It was already leaving to Blue Smart and now we have bought the EVs and deal lease to each Blue Smart. So how are we making this transaction worthwhile for the company? About 100, 200.
Anil Jain
For us it is a very clear long term dry operational lease and we have acquired the vehicle from Gensal and we’ll be giving it to Bluesmart only. So for us it will be a monthly payment of lease rentals for these vehicles and it will be responsible at Bluesmart to operate and run these vehicles and acquire customers. Also there is still a financial and regulatory approval pending from the lenders. Once that approval is done, this revenue will start kicking into our books from. Let’s go next 4,000.
Amansingh Sahajsinghani
But before the deal, before this deal Gensoil was already leasing some of its vehicle to Blues directly. Now they are routing this through us, through our company. So what is the rationale for not directly leasing? Because the promoter for both the Bluesmart and Genshal is same right? Similar promoter group So why not lease them directly and route it through us? What will be the ROIs or ROEs that we’ll make in this project? Right
Anil Jain
They’re understanding. But yes, we will have a very substantial ROE for these. Once the financial regulatory approval comes, there’ll be substantial returns for us. And we being a B2B player for us, we’ll be encouraging more and more of these opportunities where we can acquire vehicles and give it to B2C operators so that our income, our revenues are fixed and we don’t lose or burn money.
Amansingh Sahajsinghani
So this, this vehicles are already running. The 3,000 vehicles are already running on the road?
Anil Jain
Yes, they’re already running on the road.
Amansingh Sahajsinghani
So once all the financial and regulatory approvals are in place, what would be. So we lease it directly to Blue Smart. What is, what is the revenue that became recognized in the first month after first month of full leasing or first order of full leasing to Blue Smart?
Anil Jain
Only after the financial approval and interest rate etc, we’ll be able to determine that, sir.
Amansingh Sahajsinghani
No, but we would have some new assumption right before making the deal.
Anil Jain
I understood that interest rate would be
Amansingh Sahajsinghani
Variable but some revenue assumption revenue guidance will be helpful.
Anil Jain
Yeah, I mean we cannot give a today. Once the transaction is closed, we’ll make this public, sir.
Amansingh Sahajsinghani
Sure. Thank you so much.
Operator
Thank you very much. That was the last question in queue. I would now like to hand the conference back to Ms. Samiksha Ramtke for closing comments.
Samiksha Ramteke
Thank you everyone for joining the conference of Refix Industries limited. If you have any queries you can write to us@researchadvisors.com Once again, thank you for joining the call. Thank you sir. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you very much on behalf of Kirin Advisors. That concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us ladies and gentlemen. You may now disconnect your lines.