Refex Industries Limited (NSE: REFEX) Q1 2026 Earnings Call dated Aug. 13, 2025
Corporate Participants:
Unidentified Speaker
Anil Jain — Chairman and Managing Director
Analysts:
Unidentified Participant
Sakhi Panjiyara — Analyst
Aniket Madhwani — Analyst
Sumit Jain — Analyst
Sanjay Vora — Analyst
Maitri Shah — Analyst
Presentation:
operator
Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Q1FY26 results conference call of Reflex Industries Limited hosted by Kirin Advisors Private Limited. As a reminder, all participant clients will be in the listen only mode and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during this conference call, please signal an operator by pressing Star then zero on your touchstone phone. Please note that this conference has now been recorded. I now hand the conference over to Ms. Shaki from Kiran Advisors Private Limited. Thank you. And over to you ma’.a m.
Sakhi Panjiyara — Analyst
Thank you and very good morning to one and all. On behalf of Canadian Advisors, I welcome you all to the conference caller, Refact Industries Ltd. So management team, we have Mr. Anil Jain, chairman and managing director, Mr. Dinesh Kumar Agarwal, old time director and CFO. I now hand over the call to Mr. Anil Jain for the opening remarks. Over to you sir.
Anil Jain — Chairman and Managing Director
Good morning everyone and thank you so much for joining us. Q1 FY26 came in softer than the previous quarters largely due to an unusually early and intense monsoon that impacted our cash handling and logistics operations in a very drastic way as well as it also subdued the demand for cement due to the monsoon and delay in construction at various locations. These are very, very short term seasonal factors and affected volumes across the sector. It’s not a structural issue in our business model. The business model is still robust and we are confident of achieving our yearly targets as per our annual aops.
Despite all this, we maintain healthy margins through our disciplined cost management and operational efficiency. Our contracts remain intact, customer relationships are strong and we have multiple new projects scheduled to start in Q3. We have won many contracts in this last two quarters. We have added a lot of order book to our existing order books. As monsoon conditions ease by end of Q2, we expect a meaningful recovery in volumes driven by improved site access and stronger demand from cement and construction sector. Our long term fundamentals remain robust which are high service stickiness and a strong balance sheet position for us for a well sustained growth.
We remain confident that FY26 will be another year of progress underpinned by both volume rebound and continued efficiency gains. We’ll now move to the financial performance on a standalone basis. The revenue stood at 365.9 crores, lower Q on Q and year on year primary. Due to seasonal disruption in the ash and coal handling business and lower core trading volumes. Our EBITDA stood at 39.7 crores which reflects a margin profile broadly maintained despite revenue compression due to effective cost controls in employee benefits, finance costs and other expenses. PAD stood at nearly about 33 crores with margins at 8.7% comparable to last year’s Q1 level despite materially lower top line.
Let me run you through some past key segmental insights starting with coal and ash handling. IT contributed to 95% of Q1 revenues. The dip of INR 246 crores quarter on quarter is largely seasonal and linked to an extraordinary early and intense monsoon in May and June 2025. For many years we have not seen such high monsoon and intense monsoon during these months which caused this lower revenue and lower volume for us. Heavy rainfall over the two weeks long period average in May affected site access, transportation and handling volumes which dampen cement demand, reduced fly ash outtake, lower coal fired Generation down by 9.5% year on year in May directly impacted ash output.
Also importantly, these situational headwinds rather than structural declines, contract renewals, post monsoon demand recovery and new customer wins are expected to lift volumes in Q3 onwards. Now we move on to green mobility. Q1 revenue stood at 17.24 crores, an increase of 12% from Q quarter on quarter supported by steady fleet deployment in B2B and B2B 2C segments. Average monthly revenue has been growing considerably over the last few quarters while contribution to total revenue remains modest. This vertical continues to expand its fleet base and improve utilization. Ongoing focus on driver productivity, cross utilization and cost optimization is expected to enhance margins in subsequent quarters.
We have transitioned our Green Mobility fleet branding from Reflex EVs to Reflex Mobility reflecting our broader vision of delivering integrated sustainable transportation solutions across multiple segments. To lead this next phase of growth, we have appointed Mr. Anirud Arun as our CEO for the Green Mobility vertical. Anirudh brings a proven track record in the mobility sector and is widely recognized for building premium safe clean fuel fleets with industry leading service reliability and zero cancellation standards of scale. Moving on, I would like to inform about the wind business when wind has raised its first invoice in Q1 this year we also inaugurated the Silvarta facility where the audit is complete and it should be ready by end of Q2.
In power trading the volumes and revenues were very very low due to reduced market spreads and lower trading quantities and we have also taken a call to wind down this vertical operations by this end of this quarter. VIFX anticipates a healthy growth pipeline supported by multiple new ash handling contracts which are scheduled to commence and expected to rebound in cement and construction demand post monsoon from Q3FY26 over this quarter. We have also increased the number of customers where we are going to start operations soon. Fleet expansion and higher utilization in green mobility vertical to drive sequential growth in the consolidated performance.
We saw a total income of 394.5 crore. That reflects the same seasonal trends as stand alone performance. Employee benefits saw a controlled increase in despite of 70% year on year increase in rise of headcount for project readiness. Most of the contracts are awarded and we are all ready for new projects to be starting to execute soon. Depreciation increases aligned with the capacity expansion and asset capitalization positioning us for higher throughput in the coming quarters. PAT of 20.4 crore reflects prudence in operations while preparing for an expected Q3 upswing. While Q1FY26 was impacted by factors beyond our control which will spill over to some part of Q2 due to the monsoons.
We view these as short term volume headwinds in a long term growth trajectory. Alongside this briefing on our operational and financial results, I’m pleased to share that board has declared a dividend of 50 paisa per share which is a 25% face value per share. This reinstates our tradition of rewarding shareholders which we have consistently upheld in the previous year. Barring last year when we prioritize reinvestment into growth initiatives. The resumption of dividends reflects our confidence in the company’s fundamentals, our healthy cash flow position and our balanced approach of rewarding investors while continuing to invest in long term expansion.
DFX’s core verticals remain well positioned with robust demand visibility, contractual stickiness and operational readiness for scale up. With monsoon impact getting over by end of Q2, new projects commencing and green mobility utilization improving, we anticipate a significant sequential improvement in Q3 and onwards supported by both volume recovery and operational efficiency gains. Thank you everyone for joining us on this call. We’ll be happy to take any questions and answer them. Please.
Questions and Answers:
operator
Thank you very much. We will now begin with the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and run on their touchdown telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you you may press star and two participants are requested to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is on the line of Aniket Madhwani from Step Trade Capital. Please go ahead.
Aniket Madhwani
Hello.
Anil Jain
Hi. Good morning.
Aniket Madhwani
Good morning, sir. I just wanted to Know the margin of cost edge and call handling all the different segment margin.
Anil Jain
Yeah. So currently I can tell you in percentages. Okay. The margin for coal and ash handling is roughly about 11.77%. Refrigerant gas has been 0.9%. Green mobility has been minus 50%. Power trading also has been negative. Yeah, these are negative.
Aniket Madhwani
Okay. Okay. Thank you.
operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Narayana from True Health Advisors. Please go ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Can you hear me, sir?
Anil Jain
Yes, I can hear you. Please go ahead, sir.
Unidentified Participant
Good morning, gentlemen. Good morning. Your standalone profit is around 32 crore. Sir. Hello. Can you hear me?
Anil Jain
Yeah, we can hear you. Please go ahead, sir.
operator
Yes, sir, please continue.
Unidentified Participant
Your standalone profit is around 32 crores. Whereas your consolidated profit is around 20 crores. It shows that your mobility and wind. This one is a drag on your overall profit. And you are making nearly 50% losses on mobility segment. And your wind energy is also in loss. It seems to be there is a. Miscalculation in your capital allocation. Sir. Why don’t you focus on core business and go one by one later on? That is my question, sir.
Anil Jain
Appreciate sir. We are like you said, we are working on it currently. The green mobility definitely is a pull down for us as a consolidated business. Because green mobility requires a lot of time for stabilization and deployment of vehicle from the time we own the vehicle while our EMIs get calculated from the day we acquire the vehicle. Well, point well taken. We will try and assess how to rework on these businesses to ensure that we make them profitable.
So we are committed to making them profitable.
Unidentified Speaker
Wind business order is in hand, delivery is going on and the result will start coming in from Q3 and the Q4 will have a better revenue. Wind business is not a loss. Where the already supplies are happening, negotiations are happening and the businesses keep going on where the we already have an order in hand. Order is getting executed and this year we’ll be making profit in the wind.
Unidentified Participant
Okay, gentlemen, thank you for your time. Thank you.
Anil Jain
Thank you so much, sir.
operator
Thank you. A reminder to all participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. Ladies and gentlemen, let’s wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The next question is from the line of Anjali Mehta who is an individual investor. Please go ahead. Ms. Mehta, are you there? Hello. As there is no response, I’m taking the next next question from Nitin Shah who is an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Yeah. Thank you. Good morning. So Mr. Jain, you know what I would like to ask is you know the very first business that we started was basically with respect to the represent gases in the year 2002 and it is still continuing correct. Whereas the coal and ash handling no, it just got started in the year 2018 and which now happens to be the large just vertical, you know so. So is it that the. I mean is it a drag on the refrigerant business? I mean why this vertical did not build that much which is the oldest one.
Anil Jain
So the whole market for refrigerant business is very limited and we were a more refilling plant and the whole market has been moving towards multiple new refrigerants globally and the whole market size as far as farm efficient business is not more than 2,3000 or 4000 crores in India. So for a long term growth of the company and the shareholders interest we thought to diversify into different business areas which was focused towards sustainability etc. And we saw an opportunity in ash handling and coal handling business and we moved to that business. And that business has a very large market which can build a considerable value for the shareholders and the investors.
Unidentified Participant
Got it, Got it. So I mean as of now when we speak, you know basically what is that TAM or the increasing CAGR that we are expecting in the coal and ash handling business from year onwards.
Anil Jain
We. Have been growing at almost about 1920% CAGR for the last six years if I compare and I think we will have almost about similar growth going forward or more. Also.
Unidentified Speaker
Handling market time is close to 75,000 crore and there is a big scope for everybody. Not only competition is also coming up. There is a big market is there and our focus is there completely coal and I kindling business which we keep on updating the shareholder from last three quarter our complete. Our team is completely driving towards only the coal and ice handling business. Every every week we keep on getting new order and currently our presence is there in the 15 states in India and we are focusing fully on the coal and nut. It’s a very very large market and there is enough good space there to grow there.
Unidentified Participant
No date. So as of now when we speak, am I right in understanding as of now the TAM happens to be somewhere around and how is it growing? How is the market going? I mean in terms of cagr I.
Anil Jain
Think if you look at the power industry it is growing at around 8% year on year. So I think even our ash business will keep growing at 8% year on.
Unidentified Speaker
Year and then 8% in a power market which is very very large.
Unidentified Participant
If I’m not mistaken Are we the largest organized player in this export?
Anil Jain
Yes, we are the largest organized player in the system.
Unidentified Participant
And what differentiates us from other. I mean because it is just barely seven years that we started this business. I mean what differentiates us from others?
Anil Jain
I think to quickly answer that what we have done over the last seven years is we have set up very strong systems and processes in this business where each of our vehicle is having a very good tracking system. We ensure 100% compliances for thermal power plants. Ash is a polluting product. If these are not having right compliances, the thermal power plants end up paying the penalty when they work with local vendors or local people. There’s always been an issue of compliances. We have solved that problem of the ipps and power plants. Next is we have found newer avenues for disposing ash.
If you see the use of ash and roads and highways was one initiated by us. We’re also looking, working with a lot of institutions to see what could be alternate new users of ash. These ash instead of depositing them in the pond or filling up the pond with these environmentally hazardous product. And third is we operate across the country. Most of the players or 99% of the players are regional and one plant player. If there’s a person operating in one plant in Raipur, in Chhattisgarh, he is operating only at that location. He does not have market or access or business in other states or other plants across the same state also.
So we, we could say that we are the only company who operates in 41 thermal power plants or 42 thermal power plants in about 15 states in the country.
Unidentified Participant
Then how is the collection over here?
Anil Jain
The whole collection cycle is. Our billing is. Most of our customers are NTPC. So generally the average working capital cycle is about 90 to 110.
Unidentified Participant
Okay. Okay. Can I ask one more? One or two? I don’t know how many, how many are still on the queue? Just a couple of more questions. Is that fair?
Anil Jain
Yeah, maybe we’ll take one and you can join back the queue because I.
Unidentified Participant
Think there are just the last question and I’ll stand in the queue if I get an opportunity. Thanks for. So my only as of not the last question, what I understood is that the refrigerant gas in a market happens to be somewhere around 2000 to 2000 crores. Correct. That is what I understood. So if it is so minuscule why don’t we now rather focus on coal and link where the market is going and we can grab a higher pie out of it in that sense.
Anil Jain
So if you see gradually over the last four quarters our focus on deflation business has been minimum. The revenue has also been reducing. If you see last quarter to this quarter our revenue has gone down by almost 5 crores. It is close to about 40% and it is only declining. It won’t be shown before we almost even end up this business.
Unidentified Participant
Correct, Correct. I mean I. I really thank you for giving me opportunity. And I’ve been, you know, following you Mr. Jain since last or four to five years. And I must say I’m quite impressed by the way you have actually grown the businesses over the years. You know, certain entrepreneurs like this, you know, who are so aggressive and you know, at the same time very balanced. I wish you all the best and I’ll see if I get an opportunity again in the queue. Thanks a lot once again and wish you all the best.
Anil Jain
Thank you. Thank you for your kind words.
operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Aniket Madhwani from Step Trade Capital. Please go ahead.
Aniket Madhwani
Yeah, hello sir. Yeah, so my question is as you mentioned the power and trading segment will be wind up from end of this quarter, right? Yes.
Anil Jain
Yes.
Aniket Madhwani
So will that impact the overall revenue of the company upcoming future and how much that impact?
Anil Jain
It will not impact. It may impact the revenue revenue but overall revenue will be more than the previous year. Whereas the profit will not get impacted. Profit will improve only as a percentage of the profit. Because this power trading business was bringing down the profit where it is less than 1% margin is the business segment.
Aniket Madhwani
Always as you can see here in last year, I mean in FY25 the power trading segment contributed around the 4% of the total revenue. Right. So yeah, when you see, when you.
Unidentified Speaker
See after indirect cost that is unallocated corporate overhead, it is much lesser profit.
Anil Jain
Yeah, you are right. It was 4% revenue. But it is going to be that 4% revenue are not yielding us any profitability. So instead of doing a revenue without profit we would focus more on ash and coal handling and grow the business there. And whatever revenue loss from power trading will try and catch up at the ash and coal businesses.
Aniket Madhwani
All right. And my second question is as you mentioned the margins in green mobility it is minus 50%. So have you taken any necessary steps. To improve this margin?
Anil Jain
Yeah, so like I mentioned to the previous caller also that there is a lot of margin changes happen because from the time of acquiring the vehicle to deploying the vehicle to 100% utilization is almost six to nine months. So if we take the vehicle today, we start operating for a B2B customer, 100% utilization happens at the end of six months, beginning to happen at the end of six months and complete by ninth month. So you. We always have this shortfall of profitability as the business is growing continuously on a state at a stable state, this business is profitable.
If I take a stable state of one month and the revenue to profitability it is at a gross margin level it is making a reasonable amount of profit.
Aniket Madhwani
All right.
operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Smith, Jane from Flawless. Please go ahead.
Sumit Jain
Yes, I just had two questions. One was, I mean I understand that because of the early months onset of monsoon operations were disrupted in Q1 and probably in Q2 as well. But I suppose you can give some anecdotes on why do you think we would be able to make up for the losses that we face in Q1 and Q2 in the overall year? Right. Like suppose we have some visibility order book that you can help us with that we can also probably mark in.
Anil Jain
Our notes we have sufficient order books to achieve our AOP target this year, though we have not declared enough. The value we’ll have to see right way to declare through the SEBI approved process. But we have enough order books in hand and every week I would say that we are winning orders. Now that we have started disclosing to the stock exchanges the current orders, you can see that every week there are orders which are being disclosed. And looking at the current order book, I think we are on track for the yearly target by end of, by mid of this month.
I mean we have already started seeing some of the places where monsoon is slowly reducing, the rains are reducing and the operations are starting to get to scale and our daily movement of 70,000 will move up to about 90,000 by end of this year. So whatever we have lost in this two quarters or this four months, I would say will catch up during the month September to December, sir.
Sumit Jain
Fair enough. Okay. Second question was with regards to our wind segment. So now that we’ve commissioned, commissioned a new factory, have we built on to the order book that we started off the year with like with the, you know, apart from the torrent power order that we have, have we won? I mean of course we’ve not disclosed it yet, but have you won other orders which is giving us the confidence of, you know, making this a profitable unit by the end of the year and how big is the opportunity?
Anil Jain
We are in the final process of few more orders. We have not won any order yet. We will declare it as soon as we run. But we are in the final negotiation with many more ipps. Because of our differentiated technology and better product. I am confident that we will win huge orders in the next six to nine months, sir.
Sumit Jain
Fair enough. Given the competition and all of that in the wind segment, do you think that the opportunity for us as a manufacturing company in the wind segment is the opportunity large enough, lucrative enough for you to invest time or how are you seeing it?
Anil Jain
So we are the only company in India which makes 5.3 megawatts wind turbine which is going to make indigenous 5.3 megawatt wind turbine. All other wind turbine manufacturers are between 3 to 3.15. Looking at the large scale growth happening in the country and globally, the average installed capacity of wind turbines globally is about 4.5 to 5 megawatts. India does not have any technology for such large turbines. We have been sticking on to the older turbines and older technology. And this wind turbine is the only permanent magnet technology where the wind at a lower wind speed also the wind turbines can give a better yield.
The LCOE for this wind turbine is much better than the existing wind turbine. So we see that the demand for this product which is more beneficial also for the country is going to go up drastically. There are two more companies, Chinese companies who are importing and selling these wind turbines. And they have been doing extremely high, very good business with this new regulation of approved list of manufacturers released by MNRD where within 18 months all the people will have to either set up local manufacturing or the import will have to stop. Will be a great advantage for us for setting up this plan, sir.
Sumit Jain
Fair enough. And our manufacturing will start at the end of Q2, right?
Anil Jain
Next year. Yeah.
Sumit Jain
No, next year.
Anil Jain
Actually this is an assembly. What I’m talking about 100 manufactured product will be at end of next year. You, sir.
Sumit Jain
Fair enough. Okay. Thank you. Thank you.
operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Aditi Roy who is an individual investor. Please go ahead now.
Unidentified Participant
Am I audible?
Anil Jain
Slightly. Go ahead. We’ll manage.
Unidentified Participant
Yeah. My question is how is the ash and the coal handling business pipeline shaping up Poster early months in description.
Anil Jain
Ma’, am, you’re not clear. You’ll have to be a bit louder please.
Unidentified Participant
How is the ash and coal handling business pipeline shaping up? A poster early months and descriptions.
Anil Jain
Like I mentioned in the previous caller, we already have a good pipeline of orders in place. It is only the execution during the monsoon order problem which I think will get solved by end of August and September to December will be good month for us to Catch up on the last opportunity.
Unidentified Participant
Okay, sir. And I have one last question. Can you provide an update on new contact commencement and they are expected given a contribution in FY26,
Anil Jain
which one new contract. We have not been giving guidance for this. We have not been declaring. So maybe it won’t be apt to answer this question at this point, but.
Unidentified Speaker
We will have a very good business this year and good profitability will be there.
Unidentified Participant
Thank you.
operator
A reminder to all participants, you may press Star AND one to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Niten Shah who is an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Yeah, so thank you for being the opportunity once again since I have a lot of questions. So I keep on keeping pressing Star one until no one else comes with me. My question, you know, because I’ve been, you know, following you as I told you, since last four to five years. So I have many questions, you know, because. So with this to bring mobility, however, I mean, I believe, you know, this would be on a comparison basis, this would be premium as compared to OLA or Uber, you know, which runs on fossil fuels. Am I right in understanding our business.
Anil Jain
Model is a pure B2B model? We are not focusing on B2C at all. What we are trying to replace is for all the large corporates who are moving their employees using fossil fuel. We are replacing them with electric vehicles to adhere to their ESG compliance for scope 3 ESG compliance. All these companies need to ensure that even people movement does not have carbon burn. We have to abate the carbon burn of people coming from home to office. Second, we also offer vehicles to Uber where we offer them at a fixed revenue basis. I mean we don’t have a.
We don’t, we don’t acquire customers. Uber acquires customers. We are a B2B2C operator project. So both these areas, we don’t have any kind of a direct customer acquisition cost nor an exposure to B2C market, sir.
Unidentified Participant
So, so I mean my question then that case would be, you know, there are a couple of quite popular players like Vice Travel, if you would have heard it, you know, three of them. How are we competing with these guys? You know, they are also into B2B category.
Anil Jain
They are fully, completely into ICE vehicles. In electric vehicles or a green mobility, I think there are very, very few players. Lithium is one player who’s very active. We are not sure if any of these other companies like WTI or Vice or whatever you mention ofsm.
Unidentified Participant
Correct, Correct. They’re not that much into electric as of now. I mean that’s what I was wondering. I mean how, how are we competing with them? So I was, I was not able to. In a match test.
Anil Jain
Most of the companies have a mandate to change to electric vehicles now because all these vehicles already have a fleet of existing ICE vehicle and additional capital investment for them to get electric vehicle is a constraint. So we got that advantage where we became the, we became an advantage, advantageous player for these companies. That’s why we could deploy 1400 vehicles in about less than a year’s time.
Unidentified Participant
Understood. So it is purely on the basis of that, you know the companies in order to comply to ESG norms that they have adapted to the this facility.
Anil Jain
Yeah, and. And we also get a little bit of premium over the ICE vehicles.
Unidentified Participant
Correct, Correct. Got it, got it. So as of now, the next, I mean in the earlier question, you know what I understood the tank for coal and air funding is roughly around, you know, 75,000 crores. If you see our, our numbers this time, you know we clocked somewhere around 345, 350 odd crores. So that, that accounts to almost just I think point five percent of the market share.
Anil Jain
Yes sir. We have not even scratched the surface in this industry, sir.
Unidentified Participant
I mean the reason why I’m asking, you know, is that we are the largest player, organized player, basically. Okay, so being the largest organized player, you know we stand at just roughly around 0.5% market share. I mean is that understanding correct?
Anil Jain
Perfectly correct. Because the whole system of becoming an organized player only started about three years back. Three years back. If you see even we are operating in two or three thermal power plants. It is only in the last three years we have reached out to many thermal power plants where the process of contract issuing contract was very limited to one plant and one vendor. This has now become a process where tenders are coming out. Companies like NTPC DVCs are coming out with large tenders and inviting people to come and bid. So the whole market is also maturing now.
Maybe it is still about three years from now where you can say that one single player could have 10% of market share in this or 15% of market share in this.
Unidentified Participant
And what will the cash in hands as of now and the debt on books.
Anil Jain
That we don’t have anything. We just have a working capital and vehicle loans.
Unidentified Participant
I’ll again stand in with you and allow someone else to ask. Meanwhile, thanks, thanks for being.
operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Smith Jane from Flawless. Please go ahead.
Sumit Jain
Yes, I saw just one follow up question. I mean, you said that the order book is probably growing at a fast pace and all of that. And the industry tailwind is also strong. But how easy is it for us to turn on the capacity to capitalize on these new orders that we are winning? Right. Like to make up for the loss that we faced in Q1, Q2, we’ll have to turn on the capacity as well to actually recover the lost amount. So are we prepared to do that? Do we have the team working after all of that?
Anil Jain
Yes. If you see we have almost increased the team by 70%. Sir, the team is already higher. It’s in place. Our biggest advantage is most of the vehicles. What we use for transporting is not our own vehicles. We have only about 200 of our own trucks, about 1800 trucks we hire from third party. So we already lined up all the trucks, people and the operational team on the ground with equipments to quickly mobilize. That’s why I said that by December, increasing from 70,000 to 90,000 tons per day will be a very. It will be a K pop for us.
Sumit Jain
Okay, perfect. So basically whatever we’ve lost to make, make it up for that. We already have the resources in field. So we can capitalize.
Anil Jain
We have orders, we have working capital, we have resources, we have people, we have access to vehicles.
Sumit Jain
Perfect. And just one last question. I mean because we are in the transport business and monsoons is something which probably is not in our control. But to hedge or to diversify against this, what is our strategy going forward? Is it to expand to different states, different businesses to make sure that no quarter is probably adversely impacted because of the monsoon? Just wanted to understand.
Anil Jain
Yes. The biggest thing we’re doing now is to move to different states and also ensure that when there is monsoon in east and west south are easy to work. We’re trying to do all of that. Plus we’re also looking at other services inside the thermal power plant like OB removers, other services which could add more O and M et cetera, which could add more value. If you see the last contract which we got from Andhra Pradesh was like a complete consolidated contract where we are also doing the O and M of the ash handling system, silos along with the ias, transportation and AS disposal.
So we are looking at such large comprehensive contracts which will then be more stable and not just be dependent on movement and logistics of ash.
Sumit Jain
Thank you so much. Thanks. Looking forward to more updates.
Anil Jain
Sure. Thank you sir.
operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sanjay Ghora from Magnum Equity. Please go ahead
Sanjay Vora
Hello, I’m audible.
operator
Yes sir, please continue.
Sanjay Vora
So I understood from 70,000 or 10 to 90,000. So this, this transition will take how long basically means I just want to understand what is the transition period and basically if you want to grow exponentially what is that, you know what is that we would require, you know what is that arm we would require or what is the extent you would require on that broader part if you can just highlight more.
Anil Jain
For us to move from 79,000 tonnes is more like turning on the switch because the biggest drawback for this is having the vehicles inside the plant and filling them with the ash and moving out. I think that’s the biggest challenge. I would say that challenge is now being covered by more equipments inside the plants trying to have more people and within the plants also we are pushing them to have alternate roads so that vehicle movement can become much more than current. Second for this business to scale up I think it’s more access to all the thermal power plants we have just started working as like even in NTPCs though we are the only organized player we currently have 20, 25% of the work which they give to us because they also don’t want to transfer all the risk to one vendor immediately.
So slowly over the period of time we think this 25 will become 50, 50 will become 75% and will be the largest layer within the three most layers inside a thermal power plant. So that scale up is also in progress. The only need and requisite for this business to grow is more people and more vehicles which we currently are using third party vehicles. We are promoting most of these drivers to become owners and have two or three vehicles. We help them acquire vehicles and operate for us.
Sanjay Vora
Do we need real some capex you know to amaze, expand on the fleet side of our own or what? What is that Amit?
Anil Jain
No, on the fleet side we will not increase. We currently have roughly about 200. Maybe end of next year we might add another 50 to 70 fleet but that is what is required on the CapEx. I would say that when we are talking about these comprehensive contracts where we bid this for Andhra Pradesh where we might also have some capex to ensure that O and M etc is at a low cost. So that could be a very small capex which we will be doing. Otherwise it is just the working capital cycle which is required for this business.
Sanjay Vora
How many thermal plant we are approaching right now? If you can just.
Anil Jain
We have about 41 thermal plants where we are working currently sir.
Sanjay Vora
Okay. And any further like you already you Know talks with or any pipeline.
Anil Jain
Yeah. Almost every. Every week we are adding one thermal. Sorry, every month we are adding about two thermal power plants.
Sanjay Vora
Okay. And I’m going to say every month if we. If we add two thermal power branch. I mean that rate would be on what you are saying or it should. Be little faster than that. I just want to.
Anil Jain
Sorry, can you repeat the question?
Sanjay Vora
So when you are talking about two thermal power plants, I must say the rate at what we are growing should be as per your Amazon guidance or it would little bit booster lighter once.
Anil Jain
We get it is much faster, sir. Guidance is a very conservative number. It’s a very. It will be much faster, sir.
Sanjay Vora
Okay. Okay. Yeah. Thank you sir. That is from. Thank you so much.
operator
Thank you. A reminder to all participants. You may press star and run to ask a question. The next question is on the line of Mitensha who is an individual investor. Please go ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Yeah, thanks. Thanks for doing the opportunity. Once again as you just understood most of our businesses now what the largest vertical happens to be coal and ash handling. In terms of geography, how is it distributed between north, south, west and east? Something like that.
Anil Jain
Most of the thermal power plant in India is segregated into two types. One, where the domestic coal get consumed and second is the where the imported gas consumed. Imported coals, normally imported, where the plant is designed to use imported coal are present in the coastal states, Karnataka, Andhra and Tamil Nadu. And few parts of Gujarat and the few parts of the Gujarat whereas rest of the rest of the India majorly they use the domestic coal. And the domestic coal has a large percentage of ash content compared to the imported coal. And the. And today, today in India majority of the majority of the thermal power present is east and the north northern part of India compared to the other part of.
If you compare the size and the volume and other things like Jharkhand, Bihar, Odisha, Chhattisgarh. MP donates the thermal power plant. UP has certain presences of thermal power plant. Whereas Karnataka, Andhra, Tamil Nadu is a different type of power plants. And the requirement is also little different. The work, the working style is also little different.
Unidentified Participant
Got it. Got it. And the largest client happens to be NTPC.
Anil Jain
Today NTPC Damodar Valley Corporation.
Unidentified Participant
Of the school assessment comes from INTPC. Is it 50%, 75% or how much is it?
Unidentified Speaker
60? 60 to 65%.
Anil Jain
But not one plant. This is various plants.
Unidentified Speaker
Not one plant, not one.
Unidentified Participant
Understood? Understood. So I mean is there any plan to, you know, diversify, you know, then being so concentrated, you know, first of all, the vertical itself is so concentrated in that itself our client is so much concentrated. So how do we mitigate this? You know, concentration in India power plant.
Unidentified Speaker
Itself is dominated by entities. Like I told earlier, this is not only focusing on ash and coal in this thermal power plant but also diversifying into O and M and various other services also to mitigate the risk of just ash. We are working at consolidated package of maintaining the silos and ash handling and ash logistics. So that is how we are trying to mitigate the risk and growing the business.
Unidentified Participant
Okay, so the immunization allied verticals probably will be started going forward.
Anil Jain
They already started. If you see our last update, the contract which we run in Andhra is a consolidated one, sir.
Unidentified Participant
Okay, okay. So can we just expect an updated presentation? You know, because the latest presentation still indicates growth in represent gases and power trading and all those things. Is there a possibility?
Anil Jain
We have updated the presentation today, sir.
Unidentified Participant
Okay, okay, okay. Because I see that it is not popped up over here. Fine. But I’ll again stand in the queue and thanks a lot once again.
Anil Jain
Thank you.
operator
Thank you. A reminder to all participants, you may press star and run to ask a question. The next question is from the line of Smith Jane from Flawless. Please go ahead.
Sumit Jain
Yeah, just wanted to understand from a business sensitivity point, right? Let’s say suppose I was talking to the, you know, promoters of ntpc. How sensitive or how important is the ash handling or disposing of ash handling for ntpc? Are they looking at it very aggressively as a necessity or for them it is like a, you know, good to have service and I suppose even if you don’t do that, I mean they would be okay with it. How important is the services that you are providing?
Anil Jain
Very, very important because ash is a very hazardous product for them. Over the years because they didn’t have many alternate sources to dispose, they started building ponds and disposing this ash in pond. Now these ponds have become very hazardous. These have started seeping into the ground and it is actually even contaminating the groundwater. In many areas near terminal power plants there is a strict guidelines from Ministry of Environment to the Ministry of Power and all these thermal power plants saying that within five years all the legacy ash which are in the pond have to be disposed of.
And in a percentage every year if they don’t dispose there is a thousand rupees per ton penalty which will be revived on this thermal power power plant. And this penalty will not, will not be added as a variable cost for calculating the power cost in. Otherwise what happens is if these thermal power plants remove this ash by paying a cost for moving this ash out and if they spend thousand rupees on the transportation that can be added as a variable cost and gain back from the cost of power. So for thermal power plant it is a necessity that’s a win win today to get disposed or get rid of these ash for the the power plants.
Okay.
Sumit Jain
And the cement company that you’re selling this ash to for them also is it important to, you know, probably use recycled.
Anil Jain
Yeah. 60% or 55 to 60% of PTC cement consists of ash. It’s a raw material for them. So if you see across India most of the cement plants are built near thermal power plant.
Unidentified Participant
And would it be correct to say that going forward once the legacy ash is disposed off and power from power from coal used reduces, dependency on coal reduces and renewable energy takes off. The hedge that we’ve created is the wind energy segment that we’ve started. That’s the way forward. After the scope for coal ash is reduced, wind energy is going to take forefront for the company in the next five, seven years.
Anil Jain
While it is very nice to say that yes the logic sounds very good but I personally feel or the whole industry feels that thermal power plants are here to stay for at least next 20, 30 years. Sir, because a firm power, that is a 24 hours firm power can only be given by thermal. All the renewable energy are seasonal power. Solar gives you power during the day, wind during season, hydro during season. Only storage could be an alternate to thermal power plant. So while we say that there is a 40% capacity of wind and solar energy or renewable, if you see a unit wise, if you see a kilowatt hour capacity, I think they have not reached more than 20% or 18%.
So the gap is too big today to say that the coal will not be burned in future. If you see globally, while even many countries say that they are 100% green, they do produce thermal energy. But they’re compensating that with at least 4 to 5x capacity of wind or solar.
Unidentified Speaker
Everybody left one year with one bag. And one more good thing to see is today in India close to about 5 to 6 gigawatt of new thermal power plants are coming up. Two days back I saw a news article where Adani has given an order for 17,000 crores to LNT for a 4 gigawatt thermal power plant.
Sumit Jain
I think until unless Bess actually takes forefront and it is also getting tried out, no one has actually proven the technology at scale. Until that does not come through cold and thermal power Generation is going to be the forefront for a country which is growing like India. So I think the opportunity seems great. Yeah, perfect. Thank you so much. Thanks.
Anil Jain
Thank you, sir.
operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of maitricia from Sofia Capital. Please go ahead.
Maitri Shah
Yeah, hello, yes. Yeah, I have two questions. Firstly on the wind business. So now we are starting with the assembly plant. What sort of margins do we expect this business to have on an EBITDA level?
Anil Jain
At an ebitda level, after two years when we start manufacturing will be at around 15 to 16%.
Maitri Shah
And this is after manufacturing. So what, what margin do we expect at the current assembly level?
Anil Jain
Roughly about.
Maitri Shah
And we’re closing off the power trading business. So those margins, the negative margins will go away. But the green mobility are at 50 negative margins. So when do we expect that business to break even? At an EBITDA level?
Anil Jain
At an EBITDA level, the mobility business will start making profit by end of this year and pat level by next year it will start making profit.
Maitri Shah
And could you quantify what would be the EBITDA margin for next year in this business?
Anil Jain
I mean we haven’t have a guidance yet, but yeah, we can share that soon.
Maitri Shah
And just another question on the guidance. What, what sort of growth are we expecting this year through all our businesses? FY26 and also FY27 we see a.
Anil Jain
Very substantial growth in all our businesses. The coal and ash handling business will tend to grow at the fastest pace over the next two years. We will be much better than the last few years. Growth in this sector. Refrigerant and power clearing will almost become nil. The electric vehicle also is going to grow at a very good pace over the next two years where we’ll reach about 8 to 10,000 vehicles. Wind energy also, once the manufacturing capacity starts, we are planning to go up to 3 gigawatt of manufacturing capacity by end of next year.
Maitri Shah
And what is the capex for that.
Anil Jain
That we are planning the total capex for all this put together the 3.
Maitri Shah
Gigawatt wind and also for the vehicles.
Anil Jain
I think for the vehicles it is more a vehicle loan which will be there. And for the.