ORIENT BELL LIMITED (NSE: ORIENTBELL) Q4 2025 Earnings Call dated May. 22, 2025
Corporate Participants:
Suyash Samant — Investor Relations
Aditya Gupta — Chief Executive Officer
Himanshu Jindal — Chief Financial Officer
Analysts:
Mukranka — Analyst
Rohan Choksi — Analyst
Unidentified Participant
Apurva Sharma — Analyst
Shubham — Analyst
Presentation:
Operator
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Orient Well Limited Q4 and FY ’25 Earnings Conference Call. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode and there will be an opportunity for you at the end of today’s presentation. Should you need assistant during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchstone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded.I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Suyash Saman from Stellar IR Advisors. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Suyash Samant — Investor Relations
Thank you. Good evening, everyone, and thank you for joining us today. We have with us today the senior management team of Orient Bell Limited, Mr Aditya Gupta, Chief Executive Officer; and Mr Himanshu Jindal, Chief Financial Officer, who will represent Orient Bell Limited on the call. The management will be sharing the key operating and financial highlights for the quarter and full-year ended, 31, 2025, followed by a question-and-answer session.
Please note this call may contain some of the forward-looking statements, which are completely based upon the company beliefs, opinions and expectations as of today. These statements are not a guarantee of the company’s future performance and involve unforeseen risks and uncertainties. The company also undertakes no obligation to update any forward-looking statement that reflect the adoptments that occur after a statement is made.
I now hand over the conference to Mr. Aditya Gupta. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Aditya Gupta — Chief Executive Officer
Hi, good evening, everybody. Welcome to our quarter-four and 12 month FY ’25 earnings call. Fiscal year ’25 presented a challenging operating environment for OBL. Domestic demand for tiles remained subdued and exports continued to be affected by the volatility of ocean. These external factors coupled with overcapacity in the industry, especially from, increased pressure on pricing and volume, heightened competition resulted in an industry-wide drop-in average selling prices.
For the full-year, OVL registered net sales of INR66 crores in FY ’25 compared to INR669 crores in FY ’24, a drop of 0.4%. Consolidated EBITDA for FY ’25 was INR30.8 crores, while profit-after-tax was INR2.8 crores. Despite these difficult conditions, we had wins on cost-saving initiatives and cost base improvement. The go-live of our solar power purchase agreement at helped lower-power costs. By streamlining processes and improving existing systems, operational efficiency was enhanced, helping us to the overall cost of operations. While a significant portion of these savings was passed on to the market to maintain competitiveness, OVL successfully retained our part contributing to our gross margins. Our gross margin for FY ’25 were 35% versus 33.6% in FY ’24.
A key strategy focus during the year was pivoting to strengthen our retail business. OBL emphasized selling more premium products, especially electrified tile and. The salience of GBT grew to 41% in FY ’25 and electrified mix improved to the highest-ever 58.5%. This strategic shift towards premiumization was supported by investments in brand and sales team structure. We continued investing in marketing activities our TV campaign launched in the previous year continued through FY ’25. This unique communication built on our vision of making tile shopping easier and positioning OBL as a solution provider by focusing on website-based price discovery, visualization tools and a wide product range.
This approach to building brand differentiation continues to win external recognition as OBL was awarded Brand of the Year flooring idea for Tiles for the fifth consecutive year-by Realty Plus and marketing campaign of the Year. We strongly believe that our differentiated brand will make sustaining brand awareness more cost-effective.
To support the shift towards DVT and expand our reach, particularly in the South and West markets, the Dora GVT line having 3.3 million square meter had come into existence in FY ’24 and has enabled growth. These capacity additions are part of the total INR234 crores invested in capex between FY ’19 and FY ’25, adding 10.9 million square meter of additional capacity, largely funded through internal accruals. With this capacity in-place, the focus has shifted to expanding distribution and fund building.
Despite the external operating environment, OBL’s unique strength and positioning are reflected in stage ratings, India Rating has retained its in day-one rating for us and has reaffirmed this rating a albeit with a negative outlook. OBL has also consolidated its banking relationships and resumed banking once again with State Bank of India, a sign of the company’s state worthiness. Standards ordered by ICICI Bank in Bank continue to be our other lenders.
While FY ’25 was challenging, we have continued to make significant investments in our strategic objectives, enhancing the premium product mix, enhancing our reaching new kind of boutiques and building brand awareness through targeted marketing campaigns. We believe these investments will position us strongly to capitalize on the expected pickup in-demand as real-estate cycle turns for the better, particularly since tiles are one of the large products use in the cycle. OBL remains committed to aggressively investing in sales and marketing activities to drive volume growth in the coming years.
With this, I would like to open the floor to Q&A. Thank you.
Questions and Answers:
Operator
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question-and-answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and 1 on their touchstone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue you may press star and two participants are requested to use handset while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we’ll wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Mook Shranka from Aurum Capital. Please go-ahead.
Mukranka
Hello, sir. In your opening remarks, you mentioned that FY ’22 — FY ’25 was a challenging year, especially because of overcapacity in oldi. So do you anticipate a more organized over-capacity and since line prices has risen up to our — so that should be a deterrent for new capacity to be set-up or are you seeing any shutdowns there because average selling price has also dropped, as you mentioned before.
Aditya Gupta
Mosh, we — your line is not clear, Mosh. I did not understand your question. Can you please?
Mukranka
I just — yeah, I just want to understand, are more players opening up capacity in Modi or are there any shutdowns because the average selling price has also dropped and blind prices has also increased.
Aditya Gupta
So Moosh we the data which comes out I think says about the Association are saying what 550 to 600 odd companies in units in Morbi were operating at somewhere in that range. We expect — like I think Molbi would have been at about 60% odd capacity utilization is our estimate last year, maybe even lower and however, there is more capacity which is going to come online in Modi in H1 in-spite of the sluggishness in the market. So we expect this capacity overhang to continue until the markets turn for the better.
Mukranka
Okay. And since the freight rates have dropped and in FY ’25 was not a goal year for exports, especially for the tile industry. So do you anticipate FY ’26 to be a good year because of lower freight rates and any other things which would aid exports?
Aditya Gupta
So Moosh, we are not big players in exports. But the freight issue which impacted exports last year seems to be behind us. There are periodic spikes in freight listing, but I think by and large it’s settling down. As we speak today, I mean this quarter there has been a spike in freight rates because China, Chinese manufacturers across industries are really booking space and to dump their stuff in US market before the 90-day tariff or relaxation period gets over. So there is a lot of uncertainty, a lot of volatility every month comes with some big news, some new news. But I think structurally the freight rates definitely will be subdued for this full-year compared to what they were earlier. So that’s one positive factor.
On the other side, how these anti-dumping duties in the US will work-out, tariffs in US will work-out and how growth in Europe, US and all will play-out this year is anybody’s guess. And that would have an — could have an effect on billing and construction activity in these markets. So I think it’s a wait-and-watch kind of a scenario situation will progressively getting. We will get clarified as time passes.
Mukranka
Okay. And I was telling our sales books. Now currently 100% of our sales is from electricide and tile, but you are not seeing any major margin improvement. So when do you anticipate margins will increase?
Aditya Gupta
So we do 59% from GVT and is 59% for us, 41% is ceramic. So we are not percent which we had more.
Mukranka
So yes, so 59% has been the highest-ever which we ever had. So why is not that an upticket margin?
Aditya Gupta
So Shimok, your line is very unclear. We are missing out half the word you see. So maybe if you can get to a better location.
Mukranka
Are you able to hear me? Hello. Is this right here?
Aditya Gupta
No, it is not.
Mukranka
Okay, I’ll get back-in the queue. You can go-forward with other.
Operator
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Rohan Choksi from RAS Capital. Please go-ahead.
Rohan Choksi
And sir, thank you for the opportunity and your information. Sir, my question was, in-spite of JVT sales going up and now that all the is done as well, when can we see the operating leverage kick-in?
Aditya Gupta
So I agree with you, Royal, so we have — we have the one big capex cycle for us, as I mentioned is now over largely a few internal accruals. Unfortunately, the markets have been very subdued. If you see the last three financial years FY ’23, ’24, ’25, the listed players been in the 11 total listed players in the INR11,000 crore INR11,500 crore kind of a top-line figure or hasn’t changed for three years now. So our capacity is in-place. Our operating margins, as I mentioned, are getting better through cost efficiencies. But the operating leverage a lot depends on a bit of in the market. Our capacity has been built-up in FY ’22, ’23 and ’24, expecting the markets to be better not only by us, but by the industry. And that is really pulling down everybody the steep erosion in average selling prices so a lot of the versification benefits for OEM when have been sacrificed because of higher discounts we, we to your question of when the cycle will turn I think step-by-step things would get better.
One is the one-piece of the puzzle is definitely exports. A small 10%, 15% uptick in exports will really give us flip to domestic players like us.
Rohan Choksi
Yes, got it. And I’ve also been following the housing market. So the commentary is similar that the next two, three years, do you expect that to pick-up as well? So thank you for your answer. And if I’m permitted, can I also please check how is the correlation between the advertising expenses reflecting on the?
Aditya Gupta
So this is one a tough question. I think 100 years back the founder of Unilever said that 50% of the advertising is a waste, that doesn’t know which 50% is a waste. So I think we haven’t really progressed too much beyond it. But what we are seeing is that we started on a TV journey. We have been doing digital for about five years now and we started TV in a big way in December 2023.
So let me break this up in two-parts. On digital, we are consistently our website sees about 2.5 lakh to 3 lakh visitors every month, which is which places in the top two in the industry. So our digital marketing investments have clearly given us benefits and giving traffic on our website. That’s one. On the TV side, I think brand awareness and we just completed our study, we do it annually in March, April, which is brand awareness track, which we run across some nine cities in the country. So there has been a slight improvement over you know March-April ’24 versus March-April ’25. And given the fact that our TV advertisements FY ’25 are not as heavy as in FY ’24. This means that our marketing strategy and the choice of media retails is working for us.
Operator
Not able to hear you.
Aditya Gupta
Hello, no, I’ll stop talking. I appreciate my answer to one.
Rohan Choksi
Understood. Okay, sir. Got it. And sorry, sir, just quickly, I noticed the finance costs for 2025 have doubled from ’24, but was there any new short-term borrowing taken or any specific reason for the finance cost to doubled double.
Aditya Gupta
So, we had — one is the new plant of Dola, which was capitalized in September 20 — September ’23, so that depreciation has come and hit us. On finance costs, specifically, we took the loan for that thing, which has been — the interest of that has been a part of it because if you remember, in FY ’22 and FY ’23, we were largely debt-free. And we took up a term-loan to finance the Dola line, the interest cost of that has started coming in FY ’25, while in FY ’24, there was no such cost.
Rohan Choksi
Got it, sir. Thank you so much.
Aditya Gupta
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Ashwat from Arihant Capital. Please go-ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Hi, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. Sir, I wanted to know our current ASP and on one of our previous calls I read there was some — there were some plans to inch it closer to the market-leader. Any color on the same, could you quantify it for us?
Aditya Gupta
So there has been — yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you hear me?
Unidentified Participant
Yeah.
Aditya Gupta
Okay. So, there has been an improvement. As I talked about we are now 59% 39% which we find. So there has been an improvement and compared to — I don’t want to get into two numbers, but compared to say FY ’23 versus FY ’25, we have closed our gap with the market-leader, I would say by about INR10 gap, if this was there in ’23, we are now at about INR7 gap now. So we have closed our gap with what it was in FY ’23. And it’s been a steady thing. We have been doing that in FY ’24 was better versus FY ’23 and FY ’25 is better versus FY ’24.
Unidentified Participant
So do we continue planning on the same? Do we continue insuring in or given you price issues, price was, do we plan on maintaining these numbers?
Aditya Gupta
So, it’s like-kind of you asked me very specifically about GAAP per se. Now I can’t — I don’t have to take a punt on how the market leader’s strategy will play-out in this financial year and what exactly would be their priority. But I think even with the extra trade discounting and all, we are confident that this premiumization would — is something which would continue for us in FY ’26 as well. So that should do better for our ASPs.
Unidentified Participant
Got it, sir. Thank you, sir, also could you help us with the utilization levels of our petrified and ceramic plants, if you could bifurcate them and could you tell me how was the improvement of this year?
Aditya Gupta
So, we don’t have those figures because all our three locations in two our three locations, we do — we manufacture both and. So there is a lot of fixed-cost which is just allocated basis production volume. So we would have we do maintain location-wise profitability, but it’s not possible to have profitability separately for vitrified versus listing.
Unidentified Participant
Got it.
Aditya Gupta
So is this issue mode or anything else.
Unidentified Participant
Okay, understood. So something on lines with what happened in the Toura plant, do we have any other plans to do a similar modification to any of our plants to cater to the growing electrified segment? Any — I mean, this question could also be aligned with what our capex plans for the future.
Aditya Gupta
Okay. So Ashot, see today we have built-up significant capacity. I think last four for four years or so we have added about 10 million-plus square meters, our GV has also added capacity on GVT. So we have, you know, more than enough capacity today. So we don’t foresee any capacity addition in the current financial year, which is FY ’26, we would wait for the markets to kind of turn a bit and get our capacity utilization to about 80%, 85% before we get onto the next capex cycle.
Unidentified Participant
All right, sir. And
Aditya Gupta
To answer your question specifically on capex, this year’s capex would be more in-line with regulatory and maintenance capex rather than growth capex. I couldn’t get that sir. Okay I said the FY ’26 capex would be more on growth and regulatory — sorry, more on maintenance and regulatory and not on growth capex. So no new line being thought of in this financial year.
Unidentified Participant
Okay. And what would be that amount for the regulatory capex, any number on the same estimately absolutely.
Aditya Gupta
So we are working it out, wouldn’t be — wouldn’t be very large INR5 crore INR10 crores regulatory plus some repairs, maintenance, you know kind of stuff.
Unidentified Participant
Understood. And correct me if I’m wrong, sir,, in this call, there were some I could be wrong with this one on a thousands year top-line. When do we see this being a realistic number given the market conditions and everything?
Aditya Gupta
So you are asking when we will make the INR1,000 crores in your top-line?
Unidentified Participant
I’m sorry.
Aditya Gupta
Is that the question sure?
Unidentified Participant
Yes. Yes.
Aditya Gupta
So sure, we have kind of stayed away from giving any volume and forward-looking volume and revenue projections. So I will stick to this. I think the more relevant question is that when do we see the upturn industry volumes and industry revenues. So I think that is something which would determine the speed at which we hit our INR1,000 crores.
Unidentified Participant
Right, so got it. Sir, I wanted to understand what is currently happening on-the-ground and Morpi. I mean, given there is more news on the Red Sea area conflict and there are some estimates of freight rates going up so what happens next in that case? Do we see this continual domestic dumping of domestic players into the Indian market or what you — what do you think about the?
Aditya Gupta
So historically,, whenever exports have not done well, that capacity has been diverted into the domestic market on a on a variable-cost kind of pricing and all. There is, as I said, a lot of volatility in the export market. Nobody knows how it will turn out. As we speak, the freight rate index seems to be a much higher than what it was a couple of months back. So let’s — let’s see. There is US in the past few years has had emerged in a very big market for Indian time and nobody knows how the tariff will play-out in the US and how the economy will play-out in US, Europe and all. So we’ll have to wait-and-watch, I think — but one thing I would say is that our sense is that Morbi also is hurting.
So last two, three years also, it’s not that Morbi is sitting on a lot of cushion that it can keep on discounting. Actually in the last one month there have been multiple meetings in all the ceramic association, the GBT Association, the double charge association whatever, multiple meeting they have gone there, they have like-kind of all the producers there have taken we are going to increase our price by INR2 per square feet, a lot of those videos have been circulated to the trade key price but nothing has really materialized. They are still not had an effect, but after one of two years at least I see an attempt there that they are getting together and talking about this which means that they are also hurting quite badly.
Unidentified Participant
Understood, sir. And one last question before I get back to the queue. I wanted to understand how is the inventory status on the dealers end? Are we seeing any traction there? Are we seeing repeat orders or what is it like? Could you share some color on it? You can create the dealer point.
Aditya Gupta
So Ashwarth, when dealers are downstocking, dealers have been downstocking for some time and they are reluctant to keep stops because of the falling prices and all. So inventory levels at dealer points are kind of low and that is why it’s so important that if exports starts up and you know the capacity starts getting diverted there, it will stabilize prices and immediately there will be a positive impact on everybody’s volumes.
Unidentified Participant
All right, sir. Okay. I will get back to the queue. Thank you so much, sir.
Operator
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Apourva Anil Sharma from RAS Capital Research Analysis. Before that, a reminder to all participants, you may press star and want to ask questions. Please go-ahead with your question.
Apurva Sharma
Good evening, sir. Thank you for giving me the opportunity and congratulations for posting good results in such a industry when the whole thing is going-in old drums. My questions, am I audible?
Operator
Yes, sir.
Apurva Sharma
Yeah. My questions will be more on strategic side, sir. But in the real-estate cycle, tiles come towards the end of any project. Since ’15, ’16, ’17 was a good cycle, then we had a, 18, ’19 as adult cycle, 20 and then ’21, ’22, ’23, we had a fairly okay cycle and then ’24, ’25 we are seeing a dull cycle. But is this the right assumption to take forward that from ’26 onwards, we could have a good traction in the tile industry overall.
Aditya Gupta
So approval, yes, I agree with you. It’s a cyclical industry and we see this we have two, three bad years and then there are a couple of good years and then again bad years because what is — what has happened is that our capacity in the good years capacity gets planned and it hits us. So we also expect FY ’26 to be better. The Indian economy so-far has been quite resilient to shocks from abroad and with the crude pricing, crude prices being lower than before, that’s a huge positive for India. And if we are able to just navigate this high export fees am I audible now yes is it better okay so what I was saying is that if this time export piece of the from India is sorted-out and we see some traction there, it will be a great year for the tile industry in India. So my — so my assumption, my reading, is that more than the real-estate industry in the country, it is the diversion of export capacity into the domestic market which is hurting us.
Apurva Sharma
Okay. So see, right now, we have positioned ourselves in such a way where the capex is completely done, we have spent on advertisement and branding better than the market leaders. We are ready in all the fronts. We are just fitting for the growth to come in and we will see the results. But as in — for example, recently, Nitco got INR100 crore, INR100 crore order from prestige real-estate builders. So do we — are we also into directly getting orders from these big real-estate people?
Aditya Gupta
So, we have a — we have separate sales teams which are chasing large deals. As a matter of policy, we don’t announce these deals because in our industry, it is so easy for — I mean the exit barrier for our builder who gives you a big order, is not very-high. So we scale from that. This has been — we built-up this sale about five, six years back and we supply to almost everybody in the country, we supply to — we supply to DLS, we supply to coverage, talking of private builders, we supply to Tata, we supply to, LNT construction, you name it and you’re talking Bangalore, we supply to Shoba, we supply to, we supply to. I am not so sure. So I don’t know but we supply to almost every, every big builder hair in any country we just keep a bit quite about that and don’t announce be we all right.
Apurva Sharma
All right. Sir, one last question. But lately, we have had two resignations on the top-level. One of Mr Himansh is in the land before that we had a sales — some chief salesperson had resigned. But is this something that we should be worried about?
Aditya Gupta
No, not really. I think so Himanshu, Himanshu is right there on the call, so maybe I’ll ask Himanshu and to answer this question.
Himanshu Jindal
So hi guys this side see I’m you know whatever is happening on my side is a very different story so I don’t think anyone should correlate with me going versus what how OBL is doing. So OBL is a very, very, very strong company. This is how we have built it up. Yeah, over the last six, 6.5 years, I think the legacies which were already there, we have built-in more strength. Maybe the disappointment has only been scale and you guys already know it, the markets have been tough and our guys are doing what they can in these challenging times. So I think leave — you know, leave attrition or voluntary attrition out-of-the equation, these are personal choices. And I think, very honestly, 6.5% is not what I intended to be. I think I mentioned it on our Board meeting today as well. But these professional bonds and the personal bonds that I’ve created here in OBL, you know, are lifelong. So I think that’s how I would summarize it. You want to ask something
Apurva Sharma
That’s it from my side. I will get into thanks,.
Operator
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Rohit from Investments. Please go-ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Good evening, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. Sir, my first question was, so since the Dora plant has come about and we were focusing a lot on increasing our market-share in South India, I get it last one, two years has been weak overall for the market. But have you seen any progress in terms of, can you share any any progress that you have made in South India in terms of market-share or in terms of retail touch points? I just wanted some clarity on that.
Aditya Gupta
So definitely, Rohit, a very large percentage of this GBD growth which you see India is driven by South India. We have — we were almost totally a ceramic player in South India historically since the Dora plant has come in, we are doing much larger numbers of GVT in South and West, which were almost little GVT kind of geographies for us. So it has definitely helped us. The unfortunate part for us has been that the downfall in ceramics has been steeper than what we anticipated. So while in this financial year, you would have seen other results also almost everybody has kind of dropped the ASP. Let me tell you we haven’t — we have maintained ISP because of our big boost on GBT volumes.
Unfortunately for us, ceramics has dropped faster than what we anticipated and which is why you see these flat top-line results. If we had done better on ceramics or slightly better on Ceramics, we would have been able to kind of put on the board a much better revenue figure.
Unidentified Participant
So just on your point, if Ceramics has fallen significantly, if I’m not wrong, the government orders were significantly skewed towards ceramic. So does that mean that our government sales has also reduced during the year?
Aditya Gupta
So it’s multiple factors, this is also one of those factors. Consumer preference changing being another factor. But you asking so on government specifically, so we have done a lot of work-in the last five, six months, the whole government vertical for us has been rebuilt from scratch. And we expect to see good results coming out of this year. We also done a lot of work on we have identified 805 departments, government department where we are going to focus for business and there is a very systematic approach being followed to ensure that OBL brand is approved in these 800 or the departments and there is an engagement happening in these 800 departments to get projects from there. So we expect to do well this year-on this.
Unidentified Participant
Got it. Sir. Just one last question, sir, what would be our overall capacity utilization for the year?
Aditya Gupta
So for your own manufacturing, I think it will be around 55-odd percent, if I remember right.
Unidentified Participant
Okay. Okay, sir. Thank you so much and all the very best. Thank you. Thank you.
Aditya Gupta
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Mook Shrancka from Aurum Capital. Please go-ahead.
Mukranka
Hello. I want to — I would like to know the overall institutional sales contribution in FY ’25 and Q4 this quarter
Aditya Gupta
Can you repeat
Mukranka
Hello? Is it? Yeah, yeah, hello is. Is this better now? Much better. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I would like to know your institutional sales breakup, like what was the total contribution in FY ’25 and Q4 FY ’25
Himanshu Jindal
The way we track our projects are we do roughly around 20% 25% institutional one-way or another way. This is a combination of small or medium or large projects. All of that put together private plus government.
Mukranka
Okay. Okay. Yeah. And three, five years down the line, except for the boutique stores, what do you see a major contributed for us only?
Himanshu Jindal
See the market is getting more-and-more institutionalized. This is very clear will become more mature over the years. You look at any metro, no one wants to construct their own houses. So retail will obviously eventually give way to more-and-more institutional buying, right? So projects have to be there. This is a necessity, there is no choice. But wherever we can sell on the retail front, front because in retail very clearly brand positioning matters. Yeah, so retail is important so is projects.
Mukranka
Okay, okay, that was it from my side. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Shubham, an Individual Investor. Please go-ahead.
Shubham
Hi, am I audible?
Operator
Yes, sir.
Shubham
Yeah. Thank you. Just because the line is very distorted, I just missed the utilization levels for the whole company. If you can repeat that. And also for the FY ’24, the same number for FY ’24.
Himanshu Jindal
So, I think what you need to know, we added more-and-more capacity in the last 1.5 years, 2.5 odd years, yeah. So bulk of the capacity that we have added has come up in FY ’23 and FY ’24. Now to answer your question, our capacity utilization last year was somewhere between 65 70. This year is somewhere between 55 60, yeah. But on an expanded base, right? So as and when does the capacity utilizations improving. Yes, got it. And also if you can repeat the B2B sales, B2C sales and B2C sales for FY ’25 and ’24. See, both the years, it’s more or less similar, 20% 25% like I said to a previous question, we do institutional, which is a combination of like I said, the small, medium, large projects all put together, government, private, everything put together, yeah. So that number is not moving so much. And we would want to keep it that way, you know, knowing that projects are obviously becoming more-and-more relevant.
Especially in real-estate, so the way the cycle is Aman mentioned that trialing comes at the par end, which is a reality on projects. So today, with the sales which has happened over the last two, three years on projects on real-estate projects I meant you should see a good pipeline emerging now anytime, right, as and when that demand comes in and that’s what I think the industry is looking out for. And OBL has been very, very strong on projects. So I’m sure we will get a better upside coming into place soon.
Shubham
Yeah. Thank you for that. And just one last thing. So our 75% to 80% business comes from B2C, if I’m not wrong, based on the figures. So when do you see retail demand picking-up, like do you see any signs of growth recovery or anything on that front?
Aditya Gupta
Are you asking on the retail front now?
Shubham
Yeah.
Aditya Gupta
Yeah so not yet, Shuvam nothing very nothing very dramatic it’s quarter-four has been slow actually the whole of H2 also has been slow. So-far nothing dramatically different has emerged.
Shubham
Okay and going-forward you see the same situation going on or do you see any expectation — do you expect any signs of recovery on retail front?
Aditya Gupta
So we expect H2 to be much better than H1, that’s one if you do ask me. And secondly, as I said before, a lot depends on the export performance. Now if exports, you know, go up by 15% 20% say from next month, you will certainly see a lot of traction in the domestic market itself because as soon as the capacity goes out, the pricing stabilizes, the dealers will stop postponing their purchases, builders will kind of stop negotiating forever and forever and start placing orders and also. So everything will just pivot. I think in the short-run, we all know what the Indian economy looks like, what are the drivers, what are the risk factors. But I think for the tile industry, specifically, if I would call-out, there is the export performance, I would call-out as one hugely important factor, which will determine how fast the domestic tile industry turns around.
Shubham
Yeah, no. We haven’t got it. Thank you for that. And just one last question from my side. So we are at currently 55% capacity utilization based on the capex that we have done. So how confident are we in ramping-up this to, let’s say, 70% to 80% and how many years do you think it will take for us to do that?
Aditya Gupta
I think I already answered that, Shubham. So we are very confident, otherwise we had not been — we would not have put such significant amounts on our balance sheet as a, as I said, I think INR230 odd crores in the last three, four years largely from internal accrual. We have — India has one of the lowest tile consumption per-capita and has on one-hand, on the other hand, India has one of the highest urbanization rate in urban center growth across the world. We expect to add, God knows some large number of cities with a million-plus population in the next five, 10 years. So tile in the tile industry, the requirement for tile and everything is going to go up. So there is no two issues, there is no concern about that. It is just an issue of timing, which is difficult to predict that is it going to turn this quarter or you know H2 or how exactly? That is the bigger Joker in the pack.
Shubham
Okay, got it. Yeah, thank you so much and good luck for the future.
Operator
Thank you. Next question is from the line of Ashwat from Arihant Capital. Please go-ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Yeah, thank you for the opportunity again. Sir, my question is a bit on the industry scale. I wanted to understand is the demand — is it pent-up in any form right now or is it that this demand is being diverted towards Mobi-based competition on any end and yeah, any color on the same.
Aditya Gupta
So see the okay, let interesting question. We also track the top-five, six
Operator
The management line has been disconnected. Please stay connected till we connect the management back ladies and gentlemen, the management line has been connected again. Please go-ahead.
Aditya Gupta
Sure. So I was telling you that we also track the top-5, 6 unlisted companies and while they have grown faster than the listed companies, but it’s not been dramatically different and FY ’25 results are obviously not out, but I think there will be — like in the past, the way the listed players have behaved and the unlisted players have behaved, I think it would be similar in FY ’25 also. So your question of whether the demand has been — whether organized sector has lost market-share, I don’t think that’s true. There was earlier some talk of big builders and stuff like this. I don’t think they have lost market-share to unorganized sector So I don’t think organized sector is losing out on-market share to per se.
Unidentified Participant
Got it. And if I mean quantifying on the market-share, could you give us a number on what is our market-share right now overall?
Aditya Gupta
So see, as I said about last year, the listed companies are about INR11,500 crores, I think it will be something similar. So we would be about 5% — 5% to 6% of the listed company universe. If you were to add that top-five or six unlisted players and the market comes to about INR15 odd crores and then can give the numbers there. So we will be about 4% to 5% of that.
Unidentified Participant
Got it. And are there any talks on-ground of freight costs going up in the near-future or do we see it reducing back to say what it was a year-ago? More than a year-ago. Yeah.
Aditya Gupta
So I did mention that on prices that this month there were various meetings of associations and they all spent at take-up places. They sent out and everything but there was really no follow-up nothing has changed the very fact that these things are happening that people are talking about it in indication that they are also hurting, they don’t also have too many surpluses or extra margins to kind of dish out to traders. So let’s see. I think — I do hope that prices at least a drop of prices if it is stock that itself would be a very big positive for the industry.
Unidentified Participant
Right. And sir, now since you’re already by the end of May, what is — what is the industry, right? What are our sales for these two months and what do we see for Q1?
Aditya Gupta
So, we don’t give us any forward-looking estimation on, we would not be at.
Unidentified Participant
All right, sir. Thank you. That’s from my end. Thank you so much.
Aditya Gupta
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question of the day. I now hand the conference over to Mr Aditya Gupta for closing comments.
Aditya Gupta
Thanks, everybody. Thank you for taking time-out and being with us. I look-forward to meeting you for the next earnings call, which will be in August sometime or July end, I think, India. Okay. Thank you, everybody.
Operator
Thank you. On behalf of Orient Wealth Limited, that concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us and you may now disconnect your lines.