National Aluminium Co.Ltd. (NSE: NATIONALUM) Q3 2025 Earnings Call dated Feb. 11, 2025
Corporate Participants:
Brijendra Pratap Singh — Chairman cum Managing Director
Unidentified Speaker
Analysts:
Amit Dixit — Analyst
Unidentified Participant
Sumangal Nevatia — Analyst
Rajesh Majumdar — Analyst
Aditya — Analyst
Presentation:
Operator
So sir, we’ll begin now. Good morning everyone. Good morning and welcome to the 3Q and FY25 conference call of Nalco Limited. On behalf of systematics we welcome you all. Today we are joined by Mr. Sri Vijendra Pratap Singh, Chairman. Come. Managing Director Sri Ramesh Chandra Joshi, Director Finance Sri Srimanta Panda, EPO ED Finance. And Mr. Bharat Kumar Sahu, Company Secretary representing Nalco Limited. Today with us to discuss the three QFI25 financial results.
Sir, thank you so much for joining us today to discuss your results and performance for third quarter and nine months of FY25 we you can I hand over to you sir for your opening remarks and then subsequently we can open the floor for a Q and A session.
Brijendra Pratap Singh — Chairman cum Managing Director
Thank you Sweta. A very good morning to all our esteemed stakeholders to this earning conference call. I’m happy to share with all our valued investors that during the third quarter of FY25 Nalco has registered its highest ever quarterly as well as nine months cumulative turnover, profit after tax and ebitda.
Since inception Nalco has declared second interim dividend of four rupees per share followed by the first interim dividend which was also four rupees per share making it the highest ever dividend declared by Nalco so far. Driven by better sales realization. In alumina and metal segment, higher sales volume of alumina, use of captive coal and reduction in cost of raw material. Profit in 20 has surged threefold. 2024 Q3 on standalone basis Nalco has registered a cumulative PAT of 3,246 crores during the nine months period FY25 as against 1,044 crore during the corresponding nine months period of the previous fiscal. The cumulative path up to December 25 is higher by 211% compared to the previous nine months period. Turnover during the nine months period is 11,434 crores as against 9,506 crores in in corresponding period of previous year which is higher by around 20%. During the quarter Nalco registered standalone PBT of 2122 crore and PAT of 1583 crore compared to PBT of 668 crore and PAT of 488 crore during Q3FY24. The increase in profit after tax is around 224% during Q3FY25 compared to Q3FY24. I am confident that the strong financial performance reported has further reinforced the trust and confidence of all our stakeholders in nalco. These robust numbers are a testament to to our resilience, strategic vision and commitment to delivering sustained value. They reflect not just our financial strength but also the trust our investors, stakeholders and partners place on us as we move forward. We remain dedicated to upholding this confidence by driving growth, innovation and long term success. Now management will give a presentation before taking questions.
Unidentified Speaker
Good morning, my name is Ravi and I’ll take you through a small presentation that we have prepared for this call conference the other time. This presentation would cover the company then performance of the company in the last three quarters. The financial industry.
Unidentified Speaker
3 outlook we should include the global as well as the Indian scenario and business highlights. Apart from the last slide being on ESG, we are a Navaratna PSC with the Government of India holding 51.28% as of 39th 2024. We are on the largest integrated bauxite alumina, aluminium power and coal complex today.
We are also a global leader in producing baux and alumina at the lowest cost. Our facilities include a bauxite mine of 6.85 million tons per annum, refinery of 2.1 million tons per annum from where we have the finished goods which are alumina hydrates, special hydrates and catite alumina. Our smelter plant is 0.46 million tons per annum.
And the products that are smelter plant are the standard inputs. Tea ingots, billets, wire rods and roll products. So this would include basically the primary aluminium products as well as secondary products which is covered in the fillets and virus and those products. We have a power plant which supplies our part of this winter plant.
It’s about 1200 megawatts capacity and supplying coal to this CPP is a 4 million ton per annum coal mines which is nearer to the CPP. It’s about 55 kilometers from where the capital power plant is located. We have a dedicated facilities at Vishakha Batnam port for the export of our aluminum. The dedicated berth as automated loading system as well as storage facilities.
Besides of course we also have input storage facilities at the Vishakhapatnam port. In addition to all these facilities we also have invested in wind power plants which is spread across the country, specifically Pradesh and Rajasthan and the combined capacity is about 198 kilowatts. On the production front in third quarter the all our facilities are working at 100 capacity as of date and we have the performance for the Q3.
It’s the first column and we have. We have increased the production and bauxite aluminum metal as well as thermal power. In comparison to Q3 of the Q24 the figures are significantly higher except in the case of metal where we have made certain internal technical adjustments within our smelter plan.
However, we would be achieving the rated capacity of our plant which is 1.46 million tons per annum.
Unidentified Speaker
Nine month ending. It’s a tad lower when the better is concerned at 342. But we hope to achieve the 0.46 million tons per annum capacity by the end of this quarter. On the sales front, the third quarter has as finance is already third quarter has shown some stunning performances. The sales volumes have considerably increased where the alumni export is concerned.
And that is also helped in help by the rising prices in the last two quarters starting from the end of our second quarter. And the third quarter you can see is 0 when compared to Q3 of 2024. And that’s primarily because our realizations in the domestic market has been significantly higher and market has also been driven by some infrastructure as well as transportation sectors.
The domestic market sales have been robust. The financial highlights has already been explained to you by our director Finance. The highlights of course will be up for discussion after we finish this presentation. One of the highlights is of course we have had the highest ever revenue from our operations, the highest level profit after tax, highest EBITDA margin ever and the highest ever dividend of my malco in the 45 years of our existence.
One of the benefits that we have got from our quarter three results come from the changes in the element prices. Now since we are exposed to the commodity cycles. The element prices in the last two since May 2024 has seen its swings up and down. But in the last quarter of the lme, the beginning of the year the forecast was somewhere around. However, the market dynamics have changed primarily of course because of geopolitical reasons.
And then there are. There were there was an impact on the prices of alumina because of some of the constraints emerging from Baku and Guinea as well as Australia. Subsequently, of course this is all this has changed and we expect that by the end of 2025 that there would be a small surplus of primary aluminum in the world market.
We are still seeing the action of the tariffs that have been imposed on aluminum from us. The player on this particular.
Unidentified Speaker
Particular tariff will be emerging over the next few days and there’s a lot of volatility that can be next few days. Globally, the global elements, like I mentioned in the earlier slide, we expect that by the fact by 2025 there has been.
Operator
Sorry to interrupt sir. There’s a lot of disturbance on the line. Yes, it’s better now, so please carry on.
Unidentified Speaker
So in the nine months that has ended, concerned we see a small deficit in terms of the metal that is available in the market. However, we expect that it’s going to be very marginal because we expect more metal to come back into market considering the new tariffs that are being announced in the US the alumina scenario which was on the lower side.
October and November of 2024 will be seeing an upswing in terms of production market and we expect a surplus by the end of 2025. The industry outlook in India is far more positive in terms of the growth that is happening in infrastructure, transportations and of course the electrical sector which is taking the large chunk of the aluminum usage in India.
The consumption In India in 2324 is about 4.9 million tons. And going by the estimates and market analysis by 2,0 to 0 in India, it is estimated that this particular consumption would increase to about 8.3 million tons per annum. So for the aluminum sector in India, the. The infrastructure, electrical as well as transportation are going to be the growth drivers in the next five years.
And that is reflected in the kind of investments that are happening in this area is also announced in the recent budgets. We are of course one of the largest integrated operations we are looking strategically all in the state of Orissa itself. So all our plants are within this region. And logistically we are well connected with respect to access to the traffic from our respective plants.
The pit heads are very close to the refinery as well as cpp. So the supply constraints when it comes to oxide as well as alumina, sorry, the coal.
Unidentified Speaker
Is managed very well. Besides, there’s a lot of infrastructure development happening with respect to the transportation of material between the plants within the state of Odessa. In the last six months we have a zero debt which can be leveraged to give us the strength in the balance sheet to fund our smelter and expansion plans which are going to come up in the next five years time.
We are in fact raw material securitization where costly soda as well as coal is concerned is something that has happened very recently to the company. In fact it is not two years running. And we are seeing incremental benefits of these securitization that has appeared in the results in the last last nine months are Refinery capacity is currently under expansion and the expansion Expanded capacity is expected to come on stream by the end of this financial year.
And one of the benefits that we will be retained from this expansion is the revenue that will be generating from this refinery. In fact, in the first year we would expect to produce about 5 lakh tons and it will be increased to 1 million tons which will be the rated capacity of the refinery expansion. The excess alumina that will come from this refinery will go to the smelter which is again a brownfield addition to our existing smelter plant.
The plan is to have a.5 million tonnes smelter plant near our existing smelter in the next five years time. And the capacity from this or the hot the cast metal from this planter will give the scope for going downstream into extrusions as well as other value added products. These are some of the projects which the company is already into.
The bauxite man expansion will add a capacity of 3.5 which will essentially feed the expansion that is happening at the alumina refinery. The bauxite mines is expected to come in stream by the end of 2526. The alumina refinery which is also an expansion of the existing capacity to add 1 million tons per annum also expected to be completed in this in the upcoming financial year.
The aluminium smelter is an activity which is already begun. So the land acquisition activities and other statutory clearances are already underway. The capacity for this aluminum smelter is is 0.5 million tons per annum which is again expected in 2930. And to feed this aluminum smelter we would also be having a capital power plant at the same location which would be about 100 megawatts capacity.
And we should also.
Unidentified Speaker
To come along with this. 29:30. While largely focusing on the business of aluminium, alumina and bauxite, we are also of course focusing on several of the ESG requirements within the organization. The objective of course is to minimize environmental harm and implementing effective risk management strategies.
Because as a company, because we are also doing a mining activity, we’re exposed to a lot of regulations within the ecosystem and some of the key initiatives to mitigate to bring the company to the forefront of focus into the environment are forestation, wastewater utilization, advanced pollution control technologies, water pollution management, biodiversity protection, as well as efficient fuel handling.
In fact, our bauxite mine is 98%. 3 Last free mining activity is performed in our bauxite mine as part of the plantation activities. We have planted close to about 150,000 trees in 2324, which is up 14.3%. About 14.3 hectares have been mined out of the mined out areas have been rehabilitated with plantation and our bauxite mines.
Of course we also use for cannons and auto sprinters to suppress dust in our mines. And the ash utilization at our refinery, which is the part we have a small power generating plant over there is about 100. It’s more than 100%. In fact, at the bauxite mine we have recently come up with a biodiversity conversation conservation policy, which is one of the first things that we’ve been doing in terms of biodiversity conservation.
And aside from this, we have also set up a wind power plant which I’ve already mentioned earlier. And in addition to that, we are also setting up rooftop solar. Currently we have a capacity of 800 kilowatt of rooftop solar and we plan to add in the seven megawatts of rooftop solar in this organization within the next one and a half years.
Socially, we have a lot of interventions that are happening in the peripheral villages of the plants. One of some of the flagship programs over here I would like to bring to your attention is an Indra Tanush program which basically sponsors kids from the underprivileged areas in the sector and we provide them education in reputed residential schools in this area.
In fact, close to.
Unidentified Speaker
800 odd kids are already currently studying in the schools. Over there at Naroki La is another camp, another flagship program that we have which is aligned with the mission of the government of India where we. Where we support about 218 meritorious girl students today from below party line families and the sectors.
We have eight mobile health units which deliver services in around 200 peripheral villages annually. More than 1 lakh patients benefit from this effort of ours. Apart from these flagship programs we also have other social projects for constructing roads, repairing them, drainages, development of school infrastructure, community infrastructure. We had a wood filtering, water projects.
Finally on the governance front we have 10 board level committees for ESC governance and we have 15 code policies and guidelines for the governance activities. Our self appraisal for Q3, 2425 on the adherence to ESC guidelines was excellent and we have a very fair treatment for investors, dividend policies and reporting transparency. We have regular risk assessments and valuations to manage risk within the organization. And we have of course number of the highest certifications which ensure that our processes are aligned with the best business practices. Thank you.
Questions and Answers:
Operator
Thank you sir. So we can now proceed with the Q A session. We have a lot of participants raising their hands so I’ll take questions one by one. First question comes from the line of Mr. Amit Dikshit. So please introduce yourself and then proceed with your question.
Amit Dixit
Yeah. Hi, good morning everyone. I’m Manit Dixopa from ICICI Securities. I have two questions for you sir. In the slide where you mentioned about the CAPEX projects. So just wanted to understand the total CAPEX that has been committed for these projects. If you can mention project wise that would be great. And the sort of CAPEX outlet that we could expect over next three to four years.
Unidentified Speaker
The capex rated for this year was around 2000 crores and.
Unidentified Speaker
And expected expenditure will be around 1400 crores. We’ll be doing major shortfall. Some AMR schemes we have taken at the refinery and our smelter plant. And some of the AMR schemes we have taken for sustenance. Those AMR schemes maybe some shortfall will be there. And in our refinery scheme in our refinery expansion team expansion we have plan there also some shortfall is there.
But as for as refinery expansion is concerned maybe December September was is our target. In between September December we’ll be finishing. So Capex Next year also our plan will be around 2000 crores.
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Okay so in addition to that what Capex lines up is right now we have fifth stream refinery expansion is on and we are spending about 5677 crores on 5th refinery this stream. And we have expansion of Patangi mines there we’ll be spending about 1961 crores. So these two projects will be completing in next one year or so. After that we are going for smelter expansion at the cost of 17,163 crores. The DPR is already approved by the board and for sourcing the power we are planning to go with JV with NTPC for that Again there will be a project cost about 13,000. So these are the project lined up in near future.
Amit Dixit
Great sir that’s very helpful. The second question is on the coal security so as I understand we have couple of blogs with us so just wanted to understand the current limit for these coal blocks and is there a possibility of getting further enhancement on EC and what kind of coal security we are targeting in the future when the plant also comes up the new one.
Unidentified Speaker
As far as coal requirement for our CPP is concerned we have requirement of around 7 million ton and we have got two coal blocks that is Utkal DNA both 2 million ton. 2 million ton 4 million ton will be the total coal which will be able to produce last this financial year. Current financial year will be going up to 3 million because for Rutkal and E some delay was there. We have got clearances for that Also next financial year around 4 million ton will be producing. So whatever coal we were taking through e auction that will not be required to take e auction code and all will be produced through this DNA.
Amit Dixit
Okay sir, that’s great. Thank you so much and all the best.
Unidentified Speaker
Thank you.
Operator
Next question is to. From Sumaya.
Unidentified Participant
Yeah, hi. I hope I’m audible.
Operator
Yes, you’re audible.
Unidentified Participant
Thanks for the opportunity. So, so first question is on your alumina, if you could just help with the. In terms of pricing. So this is M minus 1, M minus 2 how does the pricing work? How much would be spot? That’s one. And also in terms of export markets, which are the markets and what is the regional premium that we have an exposure to. You are talking about spot prices alumina realizations. This is more to do with how the pricing works there. So just want to understand whether it’s an interesting M minus one pricing. How does it work?
Unidentified Speaker
Alumina prices actually on an average the trend has been around maybe 400, 430, 450 used to be in the previous years. But this year in between in June some shortfall in alumina production was there in Australia. So the prices shot up of this alumina export prices to around $800 spot prices. Now that plant in Australia has already started. So the demand gap, the supply demand ability which was around 4 to 5 lakh tons in maybe for Q1, Q2 that has come down almost that demand supply gap is not there. So current spot prices going to around $530. So maybe further in the coming times it may come down also.
Brijendra Pratap Singh
And during third quarter we have, during third quarter we have got $641 average price of alumina and up to nine months of this year it is $562. And regarding spot and term contract we we decide strategically when to go for spot bought and went to go for term. And since in this year the price was in the increasing trend so most of our sales in our spot basis.
Unidentified Participant
So even if it’s a term contract, so this will be based on M minus 1 or M minus 2 pricing. That’s how it will work, right?
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Yeah, yeah
Unidentified Participant
Sir. And also this new project that we are bringing online, the new refinery expansion in terms of cost or in terms of margin profile, would it be similar to our existing one or would there be any difference? Either it will be higher or lower in terms of contribution.
Unidentified Speaker
Cost wise, whatever alumina will be produced here, that will be almost.
Unidentified Speaker
Same to the existing one because the raw material, whatever bauxite we are getting that will be from the same mines and one more mines, Putangi mines we have got, we are just nearby no major transportation cost will be involved so the cost will be almost same to the existing alumina cost.
Unidentified Participant
One small clarification to the earlier question on capex. So you mentioned close to Potangi Mines plus this refinery somewhere around 7,500 crores of capex 5,600 plus,900. So of this how much has been spent so far and how much is remaining? That is one. And second thing in terms of the smelter capacity expansion that we are talking about when will the CAPEX outflow for this start? And also the NTPC number that you said if you can just repeat that should be helpful.
Unidentified Speaker
As far as this refinery and Potangi mines is concerned refinery our total CAPEX plan was around 5,700 crores and out of that 3,500 already we have spent in that and till date around 70% completion of the job. Physical progress is there. We are trying to commission this project in September and mines Putangi mines almost all clearances we have got and the CAPEX there is around 2200 crores.
We are going in for tender maybe this month itself February and or March. The NIT for MDO appointment MD apartment board has given the clearance we are going to appoint an MDO for operating that mines. We’re trying to place order by June, May, June so that six months time will be there for MDO to start the mines maybe in between September and December somewhere we’ll try to start the Potangi mines and as far as our smelter is concerned that is the expansion of smelter 0.5 million ton smelter expansion we are planning with in addition to our existing capacities for which DPR has been made by EIL and DPR is approved by the board Board has given in principle clearance.
We are going in for a technology partner which EIL has selected was Rtel Rio Tinto Canada and we are into negotiation with them for supply of technology and almost the new negotiations on on the verge of finalization. So once that is over maybe this month itself we’ll be going for preparation of tender document technical specification with EIL and our plan is that so that this tender and all the document within next six months we should try to float the tender and award the tender maybe next seven, eight months so that the job starts after that and maybe next four, five years.
We should start the smelter plant because the commission.
Unidentified Speaker
Itself will take three to four years of the plan after ordering. And along with that one power plant also will be required because melter will require a captive power plant for that. We’ll be going trying to go in a joint venture mode with NTBC for setting up a power plant.
Unidentified Participant
Got it sir. Thank you.
Unidentified Speaker
Till then, Till that time we what we are observing we have a additional casting facility of aluminum of around 1 lakh tons. We are trying to increase our hot metal production which is around 4.5 million ton. Trying to stake some small small projects so that our hot metal we can increase the capacity or maybe use some scraps so that this casting facility, whatever extra casting facility we are having to increase the cost metal production we are going for giving appointing EIL as a consultant to give some kind of feasibility whether that is possible or not.
Operator
The next question is from line of Divya Agarwal. Please unmute yourself and go ahead with your question.
Unidentified Participant
Thanks for taking my question. So sir, my question is on the macro side. So can you throw some light on the aluminum and the box? I think in the entire situation right now because we are seeing the aluminum prices are corrected that the bauxite prices are not being corrected in the similar tandem. So will this trend continue or how is the situation right now?
Unidentified Speaker
Just you can repeat your question not audible. It was not clearly audible.
Unidentified Participant
Am I audible now sir?
Unidentified Speaker
Now it is okay.
Unidentified Participant
Yeah. So I just wanted to know about the current scenario on the alumina as well as the box pricing scenario. Because if we see see the alumina prices have reduced but the boxes have not reduced in the similar tandem. So will this trend continue going forward or how will be the gap going forward in the coming quarters of the coming years?
Unidentified Speaker
Actually alumina prices depends on demand supply. What is alumina production and bauxite prices Also on the mining Cost of the mining is there to bauxite cost almost remains always constant. But alumina is totally dependent on the production from the smelter. Few of the smelters were closed down due to high alumina price.
So when this smelters will start operating the alumina demand will also increase. But alumina production which was on the lower side earlier now there will be an excess of alumina in the coming times. So we are seeing that this whatever spot prices are now around 530 US dollar is a spot price as of date.
Unidentified Speaker
That may go down in the coming time. That may go down to maybe 500 or 500 below.
Unidentified Participant
Okay, so got it. That’s all from my. Thanks.
Unidentified Speaker
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Next question is from Sumangal. Please unmute yourself and go ahead.
Sumangal Nevatia
Yeah. Good afternoon, this is Sumangal Nivetia from Kotak Securities. Firstly sir, thanks for hosting this call. We hope this practice continues in future. Thank you for spending time with us. First question on. On the overall employee cost. So since last few years it’s been steady around 2,000, 2,100 crores a year. Can you guide us? How are we looking at it over the next one to two years? And in terms of annual retirements etc. How. How are we positioned?
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Employee cost will remain at same level about 2000 to 2100 crores. And this nine months you must have seen that the employee cost has come down by about 150 crores. That is because of one time provision we have made for non executive PRP. So that’s why this 150 crores about expenditure has come down. But our employee cost will remain more or less in the Same range of 2,100 to 2,200 even after expansion.
Sumangal Nevatia
Understood. So annually how many employees. What is the employee account trend in terms of retirement over the next two years?
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Next two years about 200 employees will be retiring. Next five.
Sumangal Nevatia
Each year.
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Each year about 40.
Sumangal Nevatia
Understood. Understood. That’s helpful. Sir, on the coal source thing, just continuing on the previous question. In the first nine months have we completed this 3 million tons which we are expecting this year or it is distributed coming also in the fourth quarter. And so can you give us the mix of the coal sourcing currently in the nine months?
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Yeah, yeah. Cold sourcing this nine months. Just one time give it to. Yeah. 49. We have sourced through linkage 4% through E Oxan and balance 47% is captive.
Sumangal Nevatia
Okay. And so next year if you’re doing 4 million tons. So then out of seven 4 million tons would be captive and three would be linkage. Right?
Brijendra Pratap Singh
No, see it will be 50, 50 only because our means, machinery or our technology wants that mix of 50, 50% other. Otherwise it is creating some problem in the process. By using more of a linkage means captive coal because of its quality. So it has to be mixed 50, 50% to have a right mix of.
Sumangal Nevatia
Understood. And sir, what would be so in between we were hearing that there is. There could be an expansion of capacity from 4 to say 5 and a half or something given some automatic approval of EC extension. Is that not now currently on the anvil
Unidentified Speaker
20%. 20% is the. If we achieve the target of 4 million ton the automatic of 20% we can increase that is around maybe 80 lakh. 80,000 tons will be able to increase. That will be coming in the subsequent years. If next year we’ll do 4 million ton then the subsequent year will be able to further go to maybe 4.8 million ton.
Sumangal Nevatia
Understood? Understood. And sir, what would be the cost difference between linkage and captive? Or is it similar cost
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Linkage and captive There is a price difference of about 400 rupees but linkage in any case we are going to use. We should see the price advantage of not using E option and using captive.
Sumangal Nevatia
Yeah, yeah, but that is already behind us, right? I mean incrementally we don’t expect any further major reduction in cost on the coal front. Is that the right way to understand?
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Right,
Sumangal Nevatia
Understood. That’s very clear sir. On the overall alumina volumes currently we have 2.1 million ton capacity. So on rated basis our external sales can be up to 1.3 million tons also. But our current run rate is much lower. So what should we expect? But our current rate is much lower. So what should we expect for external alumina sales in the fourth quarter and then in FY26 without the new refinery?
Unidentified Speaker
Actually for our smelter operation we require around 0.9 4.4. Around 0.91 million ton will be requiring for smelter. So if out of 2.11 million ton goes to smelter we are left up with 1.1. So maybe 1.1 will be the figure which will be going for exports or maybe domestic sales including measure will be exports.
Sumangal Nevatia
Okay, okay. Understand. And sir, just on the capex, I mean for this melter we will start spending from FY27. So we are looking at. I think we said 17,000. Plus another 13 for the power plant. So what sort of annual capex could we see from FY27 onwards?
Unidentified Speaker
If we see in the initial year of financial year 27 you are talking.
Sumangal Nevatia
Yeah, that’s right. When we start spending for the smelter,
Unidentified Speaker
Hardly it will be around maybe 10, 15% of the. Because initially all drawings, approvals and all that will be there. So maybe 10, 15% of the total, whatever. Capex will be there and in the subsequent two, three years it will be 25, 25% like that, 25, 30%. The first year it will be hardly 15 to 20%. 15% max.
Sumangal Nevatia
Okay, okay. And smelter plus power would be around 30,000 crores. Right? Is that the right understanding?
Unidentified Speaker
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Sumangal Nevatia
Okay. And just one last question on the new refinery which is coming up. So we have a substantial amount of capex still left. So how confident are we of this commissioning by December or should we expect some more delays? Because in the past we’ve continuously seen delays because of some issues or the other. So what sort of volumes and commissioning should we expect on a conservative basis?
Unidentified Speaker
Actually, as far as this refinery is concerned, after joining I visited there two times and I was there for two, three days dealing with all, all, all the parties were doing the job and I was, I’m very closely monitoring that and we have found that few packages, some delays are there. We have highlighted also those things and we are trying to take care this September we were targeting earlier but by December at least we should try to finish off and whatever actions we are taken, we are confident enough by December we will be finishing and starting the trials of the commissioning.
Sumangal Nevatia
Okay, so when do we expect commercial volumes? Is it FY27?
Unidentified Speaker
Then commercial volume will start next 3, 4 months when we start the trials and all that. FY? Yeah, after maybe FY27. March, April, April onwards the commercial volumes will start.
Sumangal Nevatia
Okay. Okay. And sorry just last one in this 2000cr capex, what is our maintenance capex for existing capac and how much is the growth capex for all this future refinery and smelter expansion?
Brijendra Pratap Singh
700 crores is for this and expansion is 1300 crores.
Sumangal Nevatia
Okay, so the 7, 800 crores is something which will continue.
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Yeah, yeah,
Sumangal Nevatia
Understood. Okay, I have. Thank you so much for patiently answering all the questions. All the best, sir. Yeah,
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Thank you.
Unidentified Speaker
Thank you.
Operator
Take the next question from Pranaya Khanil. What pr? Please go ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Hello. Yeah, hi. Am I audible?
Operator
Yes,
Unidentified Speaker
Yes sir.
Unidentified Participant
Thank you for the opportunity. Congratulations on a great set of numbers. I think most of my questions have been answered. Just wanted to know. In this quarter we have seen a higher depreciation than usual and also interest expense. So is that a one off or should we expect it to be in that range only going forward?
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Actually we have impaired two wind power mill at Rajasthan for which the implication is 106 crores. Because we do not have the PPA right now. But we are injecting the power, whatever we are generating into the grid. We have a joint reconciliation also for that. We’ll be getting that money at future but we are not accounting it. So as per the accounting standard we have impaired both the plants. So that is that effect is 106 crores.
Unidentified Participant
Okay. And also this 13,000 crore that we have budgeted for the captive power plant for the new smelter expansion. So that will be of what capacity? Around 1200 megawatt. 1200 megawatt. All right. And so we are considering a JV with NTPC. So will it be like a bigger power plant that both the companies will make and 1200 megawatt will come to us or will it be like 1200 megawatt in total and then some part of it will come to us
Unidentified Speaker
That will be total 1200 and that will be for captive use for that smelter.
Unidentified Participant
Okay.
Unidentified Speaker
Only whatever expansion we’ll be doing that will be for captive use for that.
Unidentified Participant
Okay. So the JV with NTPC will just entail that the like. Just wanted to understand what will, what will be the role of NTPC in that.
Unidentified Speaker
JV with NTPC is just in the initial phase of our negotiations with NTPC. We had an MoU earlier and maybe how much partnership and all that that will be deciding in the coming times. Yes, we are starting the negotiations and all that with them.
Unidentified Participant
Okay. And this will be a coal based power plant.
Unidentified Speaker
It will be a coal based power plant but out of 1200 megawatt. Actually in the JV we’ll be putting one condition because in the new regulatory norms it is coming that 30% of the total power should be green power.
Unidentified Speaker
So we will be still not. We have not finalized the capacities and all that. Maybe 30%, 25, 30% will be going for green power. If we are able to. That NTPC is able to source the green power or maybe some other green power is available somewhere. So we will reduce the coal. Coal based plant capacity. Maybe it will become around 700 or 800 and rest green power will be taking. So that will come out after the total final discussions with ntpc.
Unidentified Participant
Okay. All right. And yeah, I think that that will be all. Thank you.
Unidentified Speaker
Thank you.
Operator
We’ll take the next question from Rajesh.
Rajesh Majumdar
Am I audible?
Operator
Yes. Yes.
Unidentified Speaker
Yes.
Rajesh Majumdar
Yeah. Good afternoon sir, this is Rajesh from BNK securities. So thanks for the opportunity. I had a couple of questions. What is the current cost of production of alumina in dollar per ton? And what is the current cost of production of aluminium? Assuming the alumina is transferred at the cost of production in dollar per ton,
Brijendra Pratap Singh
The cost of the cost of production of alumini ranges from 21,000 to 22,000 based on the prices of raw material. Presently it is hovering around that 22,000. And aluminium also, it varies from 1 lakh 60 to 1 65,000.
Rajesh Majumdar
This is based on aluminum being transferred at cost. Right?
Brijendra Pratap Singh
150. Pardon please.
Rajesh Majumdar
This is based on alumina being transferred at the cost price.
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Yes, at cost price. Right, at first price.
Rajesh Majumdar
Okay. So my question was that sir, your cost of alumina has gone up over the years. At one stage it used to be nearly 170, $180. Now if you look at the conversion, it is now almost close to what? $242 $50 per ton. So with the new, I understand that the Panchapatpali mines are requiring much more consumption of raw materials etc. To make the same ton of alumina. So with the Potangi mines in operation, will we see a reduction in the cost of production? Hopefully, because those mines are very old and these are new mines where the cost of production should be lower. That was the first question, sir.
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Cost of production of bauxite. You are talking
Rajesh Majumdar
Alumina. Alumina.
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Alumina.
Unidentified Speaker
Production of alumina. Whatever is presently there, it will be almost same. Because over the years what you are telling, like earlier it was 180, now it is around 240, $250. So the increase is due to the increase in the maybe.
Unidentified Speaker
We employee cost or some other raw material cost. And whatever bauxite like cost of bauxite, whatever bauxite cost we are getting is now around. Around thousand rupees. Thousand per ton and a boxite cost. So there also in Potangi also the cost of bauxite mining will be around thousand tons what we are estimating. So it will remain almost same which is at the present level.
Rajesh Majumdar
No. So because the mines are new, won’t the quantum of caustic required per ton of alumina go down in the new mine?
Unidentified Speaker
Specific, specific requirement of bauxite will be slightly less. Will be slightly less because now it is on the higher side because some quality issues but we’ll have to see once we start the mines. Actually still now we cannot say.
Brijendra Pratap Singh
But with the new technology we’ll be saving about 6,7 kg of caustic soda. Some cost that will be saving will be lower.
Unidentified Speaker
Yes. How much impact will be there? Impact will be about because in this new refinery, the existing refinery may whatever caustic soda consumption is there, that will go down. That may be reduce the capacity cost of aluminum. Maybe overall caustic soda cost, whatever now is there, maybe it will be reduced 706, 700 rupees.
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Yes.
Unidentified Speaker
That alumina cost will come down by around.
Brijendra Pratap Singh
But depreciation cost will be adding. Sir, because we have no depreciation cost will be added. Yes, the same range.
Rajesh Majumdar
So when you give a cost of 240, you are including the depreciation. This 21 22K includes depreciation cost, is it?
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Yes, yes, yes.
Rajesh Majumdar
And Even in aluminium 160, 165 includes the depreciation cost.
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Yeah, yeah. This is the total cost.
Rajesh Majumdar
Okay. Including. Okay, that’s. That’s useful. But 600, 700 rupees per ton will be the saving on the raw material cost. That’s what you’re saying.
Brijendra Pratap Singh
That will be saving. And also there will be substantial saving in employee cost also because employee will not increase proportionately. So there will be major saving will come from employee cost also.
Rajesh Majumdar
Right, right, right. So that’s useful. And secondly sir, I was curious about how you would expand the hot metal capacity because I Understand we have 960 odd pots which are now like in a configuration megawatt captive power. So how is it possible to increase the capacity there by 1 lakh ton or something is how Techn. What is the technical, you know, possibility of that happening?
Unidentified Speaker
Actually that was a thought process when I joined here and I was going through all the plants and all details. So I thought that oral capacity is 5 million ton and our casting capacity is around 6 million ton. Hot metal is 0.45. Around 1.5 lakh tons gap. So we have requested EIL to make a study It. It cannot come as it is. We’ll have to do some investment. Maybe adding some parts and increasing maybe.
Unidentified Speaker
Some captive power Also with small investment we can have this increase in the capacity of the total overall cast metal. Because for that our alumina supply and maybe downward casting facilities are already there. Only number of parts will be required to be added. Of course we’ll have to take some capex for that. We have engaged ail for that to do some study and suggest what can be done.
Second option is maybe taking in some scraps. If we get good quality scrap we’ll try to source and that scrap adding to the casting along with the hot metal we can increase the casting capacity. These are the two options which we are working. These are just the initial thought process because whatever casting facility is there, we are not able to use that. We are trying to see what what way we can go. Maybe short term, medium term, long term so that to maximize the use of existing casting facilities. But whatever expansions we are planning that will go as it is.
Rajesh Majumdar
That’s useful sir. That’s useful. And so my last question is for the smelter and CPP capex will the company be taking on debt? Because historically we’ve been zero debt across all our expansions. But alumina refinery is not a small, a very small investment and smelter and CPP is the substantially larger commitment. So will we be changing our capital structure for that?
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Yeah, yeah we have to. We have to go for leveraging. Definitely. We have to go for debt.
Rajesh Majumdar
So do you have any debt equity ratio in mind for the new project? Any. Any ballpark idea of that?
Unidentified Speaker
No. If you take a ballpark figure then for this kind of capital intensive industry even and gestation period of four years so. And with our continuous internal revenue generation we can afford to have 70, 30, no issue with that. And if we are ending the financial year with more than 17000 or 7500 network so company will be in a very good position to finance entire capex up for metal and power plant expansion through external financing.
Rajesh Majumdar
Okay sir, thank you so much. Thank you.
Unidentified Speaker
Thank you.
Operator
We take the next question from Ajit Darta.
Unidentified Participant
Hello. Yes, good afternoon. Thank you for the opportunity. I warmly welcome our new MDN chairman sir through Nalko. We are a long shareholder or Nalko and congratulations on a good set of results sir also this time. Yes, very heartening to know that we are.
Unidentified Participant
Coming up with this presentation and investor con call and I sincerely hope that we will continue this and present a good governance. Sir, my question is regarding the capex that you have just mentioned. Firstly on the captive power plan of 1200 megawatt 13,000 crore is looking very steep. So how. How should we understand this? And if we combine the half a million capacity of the smelter also. So 17,000 crore for smelter, 13,000 crore for captive power plant 30,000 crore. By investing 30,000 crore how much incrementally we are going to earn per year? That’s my first question sir.
Unidentified Speaker
That will be. We’ll be adding around 5 lakh tons of metal production that will be the main year and the revenue generation will be around. It will be increasing the revenue generation overall by around 11 to 12,000 crores. Can I contribute? Yes, you contribute.
Unidentified Speaker
Yeah. More importantly Narco has been in the primary metal plate team. Now with this addition of five black metric ton it will give us space and leg to get into extrusion and other value added products downstream products which will be much more immune to LME fluctuation. That is also one of the most important factor because there the margin is well protected from LME cycles that leverage we are not having as of now with only 4.6 lakhstone.
Unidentified Participant
Really appreciate this clarification sir. So just wanted to have a more better understanding what are our internal projections how much IRR or return we would be generating by investing this 30,000 cr over a period of time. So annually 5600 crore incremental EBIT
Unidentified Speaker
Since the earlier DPR we had prepared in 2019 was with AP500. Now our SH will be visiting and we are going for a the latest technology version that is available which will be still expected to be more cost efficient, more energy efficient and environment sustainability. So that again has to be revisited and with our we are also trying for further coal mines if we are going for this. So that projection will be revisited with the all the updates.
Unidentified Participant
Any plans to bid for the bauxite or mine additional bauxite
Unidentified Speaker
Additional this bauxite whatever bauxite mines we are getting Potangi mines actually that will be sufficient for next 15 to 20 years because the reserve there is around 120 million ton and.
Unidentified Speaker
And 3.5 million ton which will be taking that will be feeding to the alumina. Whatever. Alumina refinery. We are going for 1 million ton alumina refinery. So this will be sufficient for feeding to our refineries for next 15 to 20 years. But whatever auctions are coming. Some of the mines are coming for auctions. We’ll be going in for auctions.
Unidentified Participant
Hello. Hello.
Unidentified Speaker
Yes. Yes.
Unidentified Participant
So incremental EBITDA pattern. What would be the EBITDA port? And incremental for the new capacity from the 0.5 million ton which we are planning.
Unidentified Speaker
Actually those financials have not been worked out till now in detail. Initial feasibility report was given by eil. Once all those technologies and financials will be fixed then only we’ll be able to tell it. Okay.
Unidentified Participant
Thank you sir. Sir, one last question. Just on the captive power plant. So my understanding was that 13,000 cr for a 1200 megawatt capex plan is very steep. So. And is NTPC also going to invest in our gv?
Unidentified Speaker
Yes, yes. Yes. When we’ll be going for joint venture they will be also investing in that. So. And in this 13,000 crores. Whatever is told was the initial projection. Maybe when we will be going with NTPC and maybe 20, 30% of green power. This will again see some kind of changes in that.
Unidentified Participant
Okay. Okay. And this whole. Whole capex of 30,000 crore includes our proposed capex for the value added products as well. We will. We won’t be investing more for value added products, right?
Brijendra Pratap Singh
No, no, no. This is excluding value added product.
Unidentified Participant
Excluding value. Okay. Okay. Thank you so much. I’ll get back in the future.
Unidentified Speaker
Okay. Thank you.
Operator
We’ll take the next question from Aditya. Please go ahead.
Aditya
Yeah. Thanks for this opportunity. I’m Aditya from Excess securities. Most of my questions are answered just a couple few. So on the Alumina refinery expansion. So from FY27 what kind of run rate in sales volume can we expect? What kind of just. You can repeat the utilization of alumina refinery in FY27. How much sales volume can we expect from that? Directionally
Unidentified Speaker
FY27 if we are going to. Our target is December. We will be trying to start start the commissioning process and end up in next two, three months. FY27 we will be targeting maybe 1 million ton capacity. Around 70. 70. 60. 70%. Around 7 lakh tons. We’ll be producing 7 to 8 lakh tons. It all depend on the commissioning. How fast we will be doing the commissioning.
Aditya
So that means we can operate it at a rated capacity. Right. For. For ref.
Unidentified Speaker
Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Aditya
Okay. And we had had a joint venture in Argentina for our lithium brine blocks. Any update on that? Anything material which you can share.
Unidentified Speaker
You are talking about that lithium in Argentina?
Aditya
Yeah,
Unidentified Speaker
Kabil. Yes, Kabil. We have uh. We have gone in for a joint venture. Kabil has been formed between Nalco, HCL and mecl. Already four mines have been allotted there by Cayman which is a mining company of the state of Argentina. And invasive exploration have started there. Non invasive exploration have started there. Wherein the result of that non invasive exploration will be coming March this 25th March.
After that we are going in for appointment of. We have already set up one office there also CEO Kabila and all that has been appointed. And after March we are going to appoint one PMC consultant for appointment of invasive exploration partner. Wherein the timelines are around maybe 26, 26, maybe May, June will be completing the exploration.
After that one pilot plant study has to be done of whatever exploration results are coming. And after that pilot plant study Maybe somewhere in 27, mid 27, we have to take a decision on doing the mining of those blocks depending on the whatever the results of those explorations are coming. Timeline non invasive exploration we are completing March. After that final exploration will take one one year. After that pilot study then mining investment.
Aditya
So anything related to capex or any financial number or. It’s slightly premature at this stage for this
Unidentified Speaker
Till now it is very early to state that because just non invasive exploration is going on. Once the results of some non invasive exploration come, then only we’ll be able to know how much quantity and how much what grade of lithium and all that is available. So it is very premature to tell anything about that.
Aditya
Okay, understood. Thanks a lot. That’s it from my side.
Unidentified Speaker
Thank you.
Operator
So can we take a couple of more questions or if time permits.
Unidentified Speaker
Yes, yes, yes, yes. We can have two, three questions.
Aditya
Sure. We take the next question from Manav Bhogia. Manav, please go ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Yes, thank you for the opportunity and I hope I’m audible first of
Operator
Yes, yes, you’re audible.
Unidentified Participant
So one question I.
Unidentified Participant
Wanted to ask was can you. Can you give me the landed cost of caustic soda for the particular quarter?
Brijendra Pratap Singh
It is 37,000.
Unidentified Participant
37,000 rupees per ton. Right?
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Yeah. Yeah.
Unidentified Participant
Okay. And I think we just talked about the reserves and resources at Potangi mines. That was around 120 million tons. Could you give the latest number for Punchpatmani mines as well?
Brijendra Pratap Singh
It is about 145 million. Balance.
Unidentified Participant
145 minutes the balance. Okay, sure. I mean since you know the rest of the questions have been asked already. So that’s all from my end. Thank you so much and all the very best.
Unidentified Speaker
Thank you.
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Thank you.
Operator
Next question is from Saket Kapoor.
Unidentified Participant
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you Namaskar sir. And thank you for the opportunity. Yes sir. Joined a bit late. Couple of questions are firstly with. With the capitalization of I think so of our projects. Our depreciation costs have gone up to 286 crore for this quarter. So if you could just highlight this will be the run rate going ahead or how much is still left to be capitalized for the fourth quarter.
Brijendra Pratap Singh
No, no. Fifth stream is yet to be capitalized. This depreciation cost has gone up mainly because we have made a impairment provision of 106 crores for our wind power plant at Rajasthan. Because we don’t have PPA with in Rajasthan. So we have made an impairment provision of 106 crore. That’s why depreciation is showing a higher value. There is no calculation as such. Major calculation happened from stream.
Unidentified Speaker
Stream calculation will start when the commissioning will start. The commissioning maybe will be starting in December. September. December. After that the calculation of system will start.
Unidentified Participant
Okay. And so what is the then the closing balance of capital work in Progress as on 31st December. Next point is about the current price trends for aluminia and the global market scenario. Sir, if you could just outline to us what factors are currently influencing the the prices and going ahead with the tariff war issues.
Unidentified Speaker
You talking about global alumina prices?
Unidentified Participant
Yes, global alumina price and the end the factors that are affecting the price trends currently. Sir,
Unidentified Speaker
Actually this global alumina prices totally depend on demand supply equation. In between the prices shooted up to 800. That was just because of there were some supplies issues in Australia. Some plant of alumina was split.
Unidentified Speaker
Stopped and few supply issues of bauxite from New guinea was there. And now those plants have already started. So as of now in quarter one, quarter two there was a demand supply gap of around maybe 5, 6 lakhs tons. But as of now if this quarter we see the demand supply gap is not there. Whatever demand requirement is there, the supply is almost matching.
So that is why the prices have also started falling down. Which has come down to the latest spot prices around $530. So it totally depends on the what is the production and what is the supply. What is the supply and what is the demand. As far as now U. S tariffs are concerned. Latest U S tariffs have been imposed 25%.
It can have some impact. Maybe some of the aluminium which was going inside the U.S. if that prices goes up and that doesn’t go into the US Maybe it will be coming to the other market. Increasing the aluminium, putting the pressure on the aluminium prices, reducing the aluminium LME prices. Or maybe some of the smelters we can see that this smelters if it’s not viable, the prices are coming down. Maybe some of the smelters closing down.
And if some of the splinters are closing down the requirement of alumina will also go down. So that will impact the aluminum prices also. So we’ll have to just see because whatever tariffs have been imposed, final decision still some it awaits what will be the fate of those tariffs. We have to see that. But ultimately alumina because it cannot be stored for a long time.
So it whatever production is there that has to be consumed. So whatever requirement from the smelters are there. That’s whatever number of smelters are operating, demand supply is matching. So the prices will remain somewhere around I think 450 to 500. Somewhere in between that itself
Brijendra Pratap Singh
The CWIP what you are asking is about 4,500 crores.
Unidentified Participant
Okay. And any project you capitalize that for the fourth quarter,
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Fourth quarters. No, no, no major capitalization will come.
Unidentified Participant
Okay. And Last point sir. $530 is what mentioned was the current prices. And you are expecting prices to trend between 450 and $500 for alumina going ahead. So what was the average realization for us for quarter three in terms of the aluminia that we have?
Brijendra Pratap Singh
641. Was the realization in quarter three. $641.
Unidentified Participant
And answer the Tage Q3T
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Nine months it is 562. 560. 260T.
Unidentified Speaker
You are talking about Tan.
Unidentified Participant
Yes, A Tanish for the third quarter, and they expected 10 for Q4 in that.
Unidentified Participant
Trend line if you could give
Unidentified Speaker
Third quarter tonnage was 3.75. 3.75.
Brijendra Pratap Singh
No, no. 3.75. We have sold
Unidentified Speaker
Alumina export was 3.66 and domestic but.09. So total alumina sales was 3.75 million ton in third quarter.
Unidentified Participant
[Foreign Speech]
Brijendra Pratap Singh
About about 4 lakh will be there.
Unidentified Participant
And prizes will be
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Prices will be around 600. I think
Unidentified Speaker
Around 600 prices will be in Q4 also because abidium spot booking here this will affect after 2 come in 23 months. Q4 may whatever is going will be the spot prices already booked earlier. So Q4 maybe also we’ll be getting average relation of around 600 plus. 600 plus. Okay.
Unidentified Participant
So we are looking to close the year on a very High note sir. Q3 and financially [Foreign Speech].
Brijendra Pratap Singh
[Foreign Speech] Thank you so much.
Unidentified Speaker
Thank you.
Operator
So can I take the next question?
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Let us take last.
Unidentified Speaker
Okay,
Operator
Last question from Vikas because please go ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Thank you for the opportunity. And sir, congratulations on a very good set of number. So just one couple of questions. One clarification on the refinery Capex we said about roughly about 5,700 crore. But we understood that there was a cost escalation. And the cash total cost has already ran closer to 7000 crores. So if you could clarify that.
Brijendra Pratap Singh
No, there is after cost escalation. This is the price 5700. Okay. And 7000 what you are talking that is inclusive of Potangi Mines 7500 is the total capex only refinery 5700 which is after escalation.
Unidentified Participant
Understood. And this is second question on the employee cost. How should we look at the employee? First because the pay commission is coming. So have we taken started taking some provision regarding the same or your expectation on the escalation in the right course going forward
Unidentified Speaker
The pay commission will be coming after 28. [Foreign Speech].
Unidentified Speaker
Pay Commission for CPSS has not yet been set up. It is for central government that has been
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Set up from January 27th only.
Unidentified Speaker
January 27th only.
Brijendra Pratap Singh
So no provisioning has been made. No provisioning has been made for that.
Unidentified Participant
Thank you for the clarification. That’s all for myself, sir, and all the best for.
Unidentified Speaker
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you so much, sir. Any closing remarks from your side? And then
Unidentified Speaker
Thank you very much. First of all, I would like to congratulate the whole of the Nalco team and all the shareholders, all the stakeholders who have been supporting the company in all their performances, from all our supporters, all our investors. And we would like to ensure that in the coming time the the priority, our total priority will be fixed on two areas.
That is how to increase the efficiency of the present operation, putting the focus on the future expansions. As far as our present operations are concerned, two, three areas which we are focusing is increasing the volumes, whatever volumes we are doing this year, we are trying to increase the volume next year maybe by 5 to 10% smelter it will not be possible.
But of course refinery will try to increase the volumes by doing some modifications there and reducing the cost. And also one area we are working that is to increase some value added and in maybe alumina, in maybe our aluminum production, some of the value added products to add on as a short term or medium term so that our existing operations, we increase our revenues, increase our profitability so that whatever expansions will be coming in the coming time will be able to fund our expansions in a easy manner.
And expansions already we have explained whatever as per plan to keep an eye on expansion and put a very active a role in completing all this alumni expansion and going for a splinter expansion. Thank you once again all for all your questions, all your queries and all your support provided by everyone. Thank you. Thank you very much.
Brijendra Pratap Singh
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you, sir.
Unidentified Speaker
Thank you.
Unidentified Speaker
Thank you. Thrilled to see large number of participants which at one point of time tossed 100. So that shows your keen interest of all this. Our esteemed analyst and investors in Nalco and its futuristic plans. And we look forward for a similar kind of response in future. Also thanks once again and particularly to Shweta Ma’am and Hinal ma’am to organizing this session. Thank you.