Radhakrishnan Chonat: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to another insightful episode of our Fund Manager Series.
Today, I’m actually very thrilled to have with us Mr. Avnish Jain, the Head of Fixed Income at Canara Robeco Asset Management Company. This is the first time I’m actually having a fixed income fund manager in my podcast.
Now, Avnish, with his illustrious career spanning 30 plus years in treasury and fixed income, he brings in a wealth of experience and expertise to the table. He’s a B.Tech graduate from IIT Kharagpur, has a PGDM from IIM Kolkata, and he has held leadership roles at ICICI, Yes Bank, Deutsche Asset Management, before he joined Canara Robeco way back in 2013. Now, under his guidance, Canara Robeco’s fixed income funds have seen robust strategies as well as performance.
Now, let’s delve into the world of fixed income investing with Avnish Jain, and let’s try to uncover his insights into market dynamics, investment strategies and more.
Welcome to the Fund Manager Series, Avnish.
Avnish Jain: Thank you, Radhakrishnan. Thank you. I’m happy to be on this channel.
Radhakrishnan Chonat: Excellent. Avnish, let’s start with your career journey, fixed income securities, and what led you to this from IIT Kharagpur to becoming a fund manager?
Avnish Jain: So, good question to start with is that obviously as engineers way back in 90s, there was always then aspiration to jump to do an MBA and then get into finance. That was the kind of the in-thing that point of time. And I followed that path where I did my — then after IIT Kharagpur, I did my MBA. I actually joined UTI as a — so initially I started my career with the kind of equity analyst, but when I shifted to ICICI Bank, I was actually running the prop work on equities.
But I think post-2000 crash, which I think a lot of young people will not know, but me and you probably know about that, is that equities was not the favored asset class. And inside the bank, then I found opportunity on the bond desk, which was just coming up. The markets we see now never existed in the bond market, never existed like that back in 2000. They were very fragmented and very less trading used to happen.
And RBI then started taking a number of moves with the government’s help to broaden the market on the government securities. So, I took this opportunity to enter the bond markets, the government bond markets to start with. And then that became my kind of defining role going forward. So, I carried on that role. I was there in ICICI for a number of years, heading the trading desk on G-Secs. Then I shifted to Yes Bank as Head of Trading for G-Secs.
And then I found opportunity with the Deutsche Mutual Fund as Head of Fixed Income. So, I was there for a couple of years, then I got opportunity with ICICI Prudential Mutual Fund. But whatever the reasons, eventually I have been at Canara Robeco for last 11 years now. And the same things I am doing is fixed income. And markets haven’t changed much, I would say, but they continue to be challenging.
Radhakrishnan Chonat: Excellent. Avnish, for the uninitiated, everyone has heard of fixed income, but they have this sort of a notion, “That’s boring, might as well put it in FD.” You see a lot of youngsters getting into F&O trading and burning their fingers. Now, as a professional, you understand the importance of a good portfolio diversification. So, for the uninitiated, give us sort of fixed income one-on-one. What is it and why is it important?
Avnish Jain: Okay. So, we also, when we grew up, FD was the only thing we knew about. The only thing I knew about fixed income and actually I joined the bond desk in ICICI, right? So, yeah, it is something of a opaque kind of market where, one, not many people know about it, except for the traders and the bankers who actually worked in fixed income. And second, because there’s not much literature in the market on fixed income, unlike equities where you know everything about companies and all.
This is the very mysterious kind of thing, which is there at somewhere like high up and difficult to understand. So, I think the first thing people try to figure it out is why when bond yields drop, prices rise. So, there are two factors, like there’s always two reaction, action and reaction. So, when bond yields rise, then prices fall and when bond yields fall, prices rise. So, that is the main thing for bond markets.
Second thing is that bond markets, typically you have, if I can distill it further, is your money market instruments like commercial papers, certificate for deposits, and then you have the bonds, which primarily, we can bifurcate between government bonds and corporate bonds. So, there will be rating-wise also, but that is going to — deep into at this point of time.
So, as a fund manager or any fund which is investing in fixed income, we broadly invest across these categories, which is money markets, where also treasure bills are there issued by the government and CPs, CDs or bonds. So, these are main categories. Then you have various structures which are there, which are more complicated, not — I think not one-on-one — in this one-on-one, we cannot cover — really cover that.
So, now, obviously, in bond markets, you invest with a view that, one, you always get certain yield or interest rate, if you can say in terms of FD of interest rate. So, when you invest in bond, you get certain coupon, which is called the coupon or interest rate of the bond. So, if you hold till maturity, you will get that coupon and you will get your principal back, mostly, if you are not taking trade risk into account, you will get the principal back.
But what happens in between is where people get a little confused because the price of the bond moves with the current interest rate environment. So, if interest rates are going down, the bond price will go up. So, actually, if you have a longer maturity bond, like a five-year bond and after two years, the yields drop, then actually you can make a capital gains on the bond. Vice versa, if yields rise, then you can also have a temporary mark-to-market loss on the bond. But you have to remember that if you hold the bond till maturity, it doesn’t matter to you, you just get your interest coupon on that bond and you can — similar to what you got in FD.
So, in terms of difference between FD and bond, there is — the only difference is that bond prices are kind of marked-to-market as we call it on a daily basis, while FD is at always INR100 because there is no market for FDs or it doesn’t trade in secondary market. From a coupon perspective, you can compare coupons of FDs and bonds. They may be similar or not similar. But eventually, at the maturity, you will get the coupon and your interest rate every year will come to you.
So, second, I think one thing we need to understand is the government bond market is the largest market, almost 80%, 85% is government bonds because government borrows a lot in the market, which I think not many people know, what we call the fiscal deficit. So fiscal deficit is funded via borrowing from the government, by the government from the markets.
The larger kind of lenders are banks which have SLR. So, it is a lot of — a lot of names and things are coming up. A lot of lingo is coming up, I think. But SLR is a Statutory Liquidity Ratio which banks have to maintain only in government bonds or treasuries. Then all the insurance companies and the provident funds have to compulsorily invest a large portion in government bonds. So, this is where the demand comes from.
Rest of it, mutual funds have, except for a few funds where there is necessity to invest in government bonds, most of the funds have an option to invest in government bonds. So, mutual funds typically don’t have very large exposure in terms of percentage of the market in government bonds. Largest would be banks or insurance companies or provident funds or pension funds. So, these are the main drivers of demand for government bonds, then obviously, the FI debt money coming in, in the government bonds.
Then the smaller portion of the bond market is a corporate bond market where companies raise money from the market by issuing bonds or, on the shorter end, commercial papers. Typically, when we look at from a rating perspective, typically you will have AAA+, AA+ type of companies raising money because for lower rated papers, there is lesser demand in the market and there are certain limitations for all PFs and insurance also in terms of ratings which has been set by the regulator.
So, the largest issuers are AAA, I would say, and AA+. Within AAA category, you have a large portion of the market is high credit quality like the public sector enterprises, like the PFC, Power Finance Corporation, Power Grid, NABARD, SIDBI. All these big companies continue to access markets for their requirements.
Then second segment is the NBFC segment which is a Non-Banking Financial Company like Bajaj Finance, Mahindra Finance, L&T Finance and all these guys. They also borrow from the market directly apart from borrowing from banks and other sources, so — but they have a major portion borrowing from capital markets, as we call it.
So, this is broadly what happens and then a fund manager has, depending on the fund characteristics, he has to invest across these asset classes and then depending on the interest rate view when — so, just to explain it a bit, a fund manager tries to take advantage of the interest rate movement or expected interest rate movement, what may happen according to his view and from market conditions or the macroeconomic conditions.
Like currently, we are seeing rate cuts happening in U.S. So, one would expect that going forward, bond yields will go down and then market prices will go up. So, there is a possibility of making capital gains. So, in this situation, the fund manager, in few of his funds, would try to increase the maturity of the fund so that he can take advantage of the movements of interest rates. It may be vice versa when rate cycle is on the upward cycle, where rates are going up, then you want to actually have — hold papers which have lower duration so that interest rate risk becomes much lesser. You cannot go to zero because then you are only investing in cash and then there is a trade-off between holding cash and investing in one-year paper or six-month paper. So, you do that analysis and see where best you get because cash will not give you that much as a one-year paper may and depending on that spread, you may take positions in the various funds. So, that is the second way of making capital gains or reducing the capital losses, one could say, mitigating capital losses.
One other way of making money in funds or making some additional returns or alpha, as we call it, is investing in credit papers which are AA, AA- or so or structured papers like guaranteed bonds where you may get a slightly higher yield. So, fund manager may take a view that he may invest a certain portion of his fund in credit papers and try to enhance the yield of the portfolio so that it can give a better return to investors. That is a lot but…
Radhakrishnan Chonat: No, no, no. I believe this is an excellent primer on the fixed income market as a whole. Excellent answer. You mentioned about the uncertainty around interest rate movements and how it can impact. So, you did touch upon the U.S. So, if I were to ask you as a follow-up, how do you see the current fixed income landscape in India? And I mean there is a lot of ongoing economic uncertainty with wars and all that stuff. So, focusing on India, how do you foresee the interest rate movements in the next short term as well as long term, six months to three years plus?
Avnish Jain: Okay. So, I think if you look at interest rates, the main drivers for interest rates are essentially one could say there are two main things: growth and inflation trade-off. As it happens with most of the central banks, they look at growth and inflation. So, right now, inflation target for RBI which the governor has multiple times in the media has reiterated that it is 4% on the medium term basis and they are projecting 4% inflation in ‘26 in the first half, which will be their target. But there, that is a medium target that means they also have to maintain that 4% all over or around 4%.
Currently, we have seen inflation in the last two, three readings — two readings actually, at a slightly higher level of 5.5%, 6% which jumped from 3.65% in August to these numbers and it was primarily driven by higher food prices. But again, since these numbers are actual numbers, RBI should take into account when they look at the monetary policy decision. Like, interest rate corrections are done through a monetary policy mechanism which is a monetary policy committee which is promulgated under Government of India Act. So, it is a legal legislative committee and there are six members who decide on how the interest rates will move in India which is your base key rate of repo rate.
So, the committee meets every 45, 50 days to decide whether they will have to move or not. So, past, I think, one and half years, they have been on the side of saying that we have to be on the tightening of policy, that means they have to keep rates higher because inflation was higher and growth was also on a higher side. So, to prevent any spillovers of growth into inflation, they have to keep rates a bit higher.
Last policy, they actually moved to neutral policy which implies that they are thinking that now probably the inflation is moving towards their target and the next policy move could be — again, could be a rate easing rate action.
So, from a U.S. perspective, we have already seen 75 basis rate cut because their rates were actually much higher like they went from 0.25% to 5.5% in one and half years. Ours moved from, I think, 4% to 6.5%. So, our movement was not so huge. So, we necessarily don’t need to mirror U.S. policy actions.
So, there are two other factors which are there. One, our growth is actually very good. So, there is no need to rush on the rate cuts. Only if growth is flowing at a faster pace, then the central bank will step in to reduce rates to support the economy. Second is inflation is still on a higher side as per RBI mid-term target of 4%. So, again, the governor has been very adamant saying that until it reaches 4%, we are not ready to move on rates. Again, because that is supported by that growth is not really faltering. We are still 6.5%, 7%, though the number 6.7% came in the first quarter. We are still good — very good in terms of comparison to any country in the world. We are excellent in growth.
Second is when we look at interest rate drivers is government finances. So, government finances are doing very well. We are seeing fiscal deficit come down to — from, say, I think about 7% in the COVID year, 7%, 7.5% to now about 4.9% for this year. So, on a steady basis, the fiscal deficit coming down, which is positive for bond markets in a sense.
Third is you have good political stability. We have the stable government with the very forward-looking policies and trying to revitalize the economy from a long-term perspective. All these factors play into keeping the interest rates lower. So, over a longer period of time, in any economy which is developing and is moving toward developed economy, you will see rates coming down.
If I give you example of U.S., U.S. rates in probably when there were the Iran-Iraq first war in the 70s used to be 16%, 18%. So, from that level, it took 35, 40 years for the rates to come down to — today, it is 5%. But in between, it was 0% also.
Radhakrishnan Chonat: 0%, yeah.
Avnish Jain: So, there is over — if you see few more economies, it is similar pattern where over long periods of time, one, your economy is growing, so your stability is coming, there is more — economies opening up more. So, that overall, the interest rate scenarios are always that rates come down slowly over long periods of time. So, it will not happen over two years, five years, maybe 10, 15 years, you will see rate further coming down.
If I remember in 2000 rates, 10-year was 11%, so, 11%, 11.5%. So, now it is about 6.75%. So, overall, it has come down. And the volatility in the market has reduced considerably in the last two, three years where earlier we used to see a lot of movement in the curve itself, which has reduced. So, this all points down to stability in the financial markets, stability of the government, stability of macroeconomic factors, which is now stabilizing because the country is growing at a good pace and with the policies which are positive for interest rate coming down.
Radhakrishnan Chonat: Excellent. So, here is where I am going to put you in a fix, so, the million dollar question. Do you expect the RBI’s upcoming MPC group to reduce because Finance Minister had sort of pushed it? So, what is your view? What is your idealistic view? Are you expecting it to be cut or are you expecting them to remain hawkish?
Avnish Jain: So, they — obviously, they will not be hawkish to start with. Cutting rates, I think it’s a very kind of fine balance. It’s like, I would say I am on the fence or the committee will be on the fence. The reason being the last inflation number was much higher than expected at 6.2%. While it was primarily driven by food prices because your core inflation, which is ex food and energy, was about 3.7%, which is well within your 4% target.
But what happens is that food prices can spill over to core inflation as well because suddenly, if that continues, then people start buying more aggressively and then it impacts the core inflation as well. To that extent, RBI may wait. But what we are also looking forward is that on 29th, in two days, you will get the GDP number for Q2. If that number is market expectation, I think consensus Bloomberg is about 6.4% or 6.3%, which is well below RBI’s expectation of 7% plus for the whole year because 6.4%, then first half would be about 6.5% and second half typically, you can’t get a 7.5% growth to meet the requirement of 7%.
So again, if growth slows down more than RBI expectation, there could be a good discussion within the committee on growth and inflation trade-off, whether you can do it now or you want to wait for one or two months more in February, you pull the trigger on rate cut. So there’s a higher probability of February rate cut. But again, with a caveat that if growth numbers are lower than expectation, then there RBI could move in December. So December rate cut probability is low. Before the inflation number came, probably it was on the higher side, probably 50-50. Now it is slightly lower. But it is there, I think, depending on the growth numbers.
Radhakrishnan Chonat: Got it. Excellent. Shifting gears a little bit. You manage multiple fixed income funds at Canara Robeco, right? Give us a primer on what different funds you hold. And sort of a follow-up question is, how do you differentiate your strategies across corporate bonds, gilt funds, and you have short-duration funds and stuff. So give us a primer on that.
Avnish Jain: Okay. So I directly manage income fund and corporate bond fund. I also manage both the hybrid funds, which is the equity hybrid, where about 25% is in debt. And the conservative hybrid, which is 75% in debt, rest is equity. Then I’m co-fund manager across various other funds also.
So I think — so each fund has a kind of defined characteristics, one, defined by the regulator. Like, let’s talk about money market funds. So liquid fund, you have a maximum duration, you can buy a maximum maturity paper, you can buy 91 days, that means three months. So typically a trade, you can buy papers up to 1 day to 91 days. So there, you typically only buy money market papers like CPs, CDs, or treasury bills. Bonds typically are not issued for very short tenors.
Then you have the ultra-short-term category, which is three to six months. Then you have the low-duration category, which is six months to one year. So within one year category of three funds. So depending — so there are two — like I said, there are two strategies that can be done. One is you play on the duration or you play on the credit side.
As a fund house, we have been conservative in the past and we continue to be conservative on credit. So essentially, we don’t invest in any low-rated papers. We generally do AAA or AA+ papers. So our strategy is focused on managing duration of these funds. So depending on the interest rate view, if you find the next three months — let’s say in liquid fund, I find that next three months I expect rates to be down, then I will push more of my investment in that two and half to three month bucket. So then I can take advantage when rates actually fall and it can give me a bit of capital gains during that period.
Similar thing with other funds, depending on the duration bucket, which is given by regulator, we can go to highest duration during the interest rate cut cycle and lowest duration in the interest hike cycle. For example, in low-duration fund, you have six months to one year bucket. The floor is six months, cap is one year. So right now, we have near one-year maturity because we expect rates to be cut. But till last year, probably we were six months. So we minimize the maturity. So any capital losses are mitigated to a large extent because you can’t go below that because of regulatory requirement.
Then you have the short-duration funds and the corporate bond fund. There, they have a mix of corporate bonds and G-Secs. So between corporate bond and G-Secs, the decision is on two parameters. One is, what is the spread between G-Sec and corporate bond which entices you to go to corporate bond or to G-Sec. So if the spread is very low, you will say I will buy government bond because the spread is not justifying the illiquidity I am taking from corporate bond because G-Secs are the most liquid.
Secondly, then you have to decide how much liquidity you want in your fund because depending on the previous outflow/inflows you see, you decide on the liquidity of the fund. SEBI has certain limits for liquidity which minimum you have to maintain. On top of that, you can maintain separate liquidity in form of government bonds.
Thirdly, government bonds are more tradable than corporate bonds. So if you want to actively manage that you want to buy say 10 years and 5 years or something like that on a regular basis, then you have a more chunk in G-Secs, so government bonds rather than in corporate paper. Corporate paper, liquidity is slightly lower. So you can’t trade very frequently or it takes time to trade and there is a more — impact cost is higher.
So I think from a duration perspective, if you are managing duration, then these are the few things which you can do. One is you can trade on interest rate movements absolute whether it’s going up or down. You can trade on spreads or you can trade on the mispricing across the curve. Sometimes what happens is that the longer duration curve is lower than a shorter duration curve. And if you feel that, that will normalize where shorter duration curve should be higher, then you can sell the long duration and buy the short duration.
So there are three, four things you can do in a fund to manage that fund and trying to generate a bit of alpha in that.
Radhakrishnan Chonat: Very interesting. For retail investors who are looking to enter fixed income, now that they have got a one-on-one or a primer, what would be your advice on building a resilient portfolio? What would be the ideal breakup? What would be the ideal percentage they should hold in fixed income, etc.?
Avnish Jain: So I think from a — again, it depends on person to person because typically what is said is that if you are just entering the workforce and just starting earning money, then all your money should go into equities because you want to increase your wealth and because your salary will increase over time. So you have not reached a plateau where your salary is probably not increasing that far. But — and you want to maximize your wealth accumulation.
But still, I think there is some money to be kept for a rainy day in, say, a liquid fund or a low-duration fund or short-duration fund, which can be kept in the debt fund category by anybody. Again, it could be 10%, 15%, 20%. It depends on your choice. I think it is how an advisor would advise them. It depends on risk return, risk capability of that person as well. If he is a risk taker, he can go to gilt fund, but if he is a very conservative investor, then short-duration is where he should be invested in.
Again, if you look at various funds, I think when we compare to FD and all, at least on the mutual fund side, your redemption can be on T+1 basis. So money availability is also fast. So again, that is where we feel that there is some advantage over fixed deposit.
Radhakrishnan Chonat: Got it. Again, as you said, it’s highly personal, so better get a financial advisor in place. So let’s talk about the bond market in India in general. If you look at, let’s take U.S. as an example, It’s like — actually, I read some numbers, almost 70% plus. I don’t know if I’m right, but 70% plus of money is in bond market in the U.S. and only 30% or so in equities. Whereas in India, it’s still — and I believe we are entering the index also very soon, right? The global…
Avnish Jain: Yeah, we’ve entered already.
Radhakrishnan Chonat: Entered already. Okay. So how do you see the bond market in general in terms of AUM evolving over the next set of years and what is sort of your wish list of how fixed income will become more prominent?
Avnish Jain: So I think one is that talking about global funds interest, we were — we have entered into the JPMorgan emerging bond index in June this year and the adjustment is still going on. We already got about $16 billion this year, which is largest in the last four, five years. I think last we saw good inflows was in 2021, I think. So it was a good year for debt markets in terms of flows. Next year also, we anticipate more flows because JPMorgan will continue. Then Bloomberg also is adding, in its Indices, India as a constituent and then again FTSE, which is the — FTSE, which is the London Stock Exchange Indices. That is also adding us on the emerging market bond index.
Flows not that large, maybe $8 billion to $10 billion put together, but again these are additional flows beyond JPMorgan and then as marketability of Indian bonds improves abroad and there is more knowledge from overseas, you might get more indices interested in including India as a constituent.
In India, I think obviously, the young generation is more caught up, like you said, with equity and F&O, but again, to have a portfolio which is robust throughout the life of the portfolio, not for two, three years, but for a very long term and you want to have your portfolio till retirement in a good place, generating — not generating like 20%, 30% return in one year, then you don’t do anything, but rather generating, say for example, 12% CAGR for 10, 12, 15 years, that is how you build wealth. It is the CAGR which matter over years rather than earning 30% in a year and then add 0% next year, it doesn’t help.
And so for that, you need a portfolio construction which is equity that probably commodity is a bit, probably real estate, just talking about four things which are available in India where people can invest. Real estate obviously, your own house. Commodities you can take, gold and silver exposure through ETFs and then equity and data there.
So again, I think from a particular theory, from an managing theory, one would say that as you grow older, your debt portion should increase over time because when you retire, say — because you don’t want all your money in equity, but a large portion in debts because you need the income from the debt — from the fixed income securities or regular income you’ll need. Equities can be exciting for two, three years, but they may inflate or may go down a bit next couple of years. So that is not a regular income, you require regular income after retirement or after you are finished with your job and for that, you need a larger portion in your fixed income portfolio.
So earlier theories used to say that by the time you retire, 100% should be in debt. But again, it depends person to person how the financial advisor or professional financial advisor is advising his client. But typically, that is the situation where when you are starting a job, generally it’s recommended that 100% equity because in any way, money is going into PF and you have some FDs and some monies in bank account but I would advise that for rainy day you should keep money illiquid or some short term money market fund so that if there is an emergency or exigency, you can get money faster.
Radhakrishnan Chonat: Excellent. Shifting gears again a little bit, Avnish, let’s talk about you. You have worked with multiple financial institutions over three-plus decades and you have learned a lot of key lessons along the way, I’m sure. If I were to ask you what would be probably one or two key lessons from a corporate life that you would like to share with my listeners as learnings that they can take away?
Avnish Jain: I think in any market, it is slow and steady wins the race, right? You have to stick to your investment portfolio or your allocation. Should not get worried too much if market goes against you and don’t have FOMO that you’ve missed out on something. Markets are like that and what I’ve learned is that booking profit is also important.
Obviously, in mutual fund, if you are investing only in mutual funds, yes you can continue to invest because the fund manager is taking the charge of booking profit, like he is taking care that profit is booked regularly or if market is very peak-ish or very, very positive then probably he’s taking some profit off the table. But as an investor on direct equity, I think you should book profits and not keep holding on position unless you’re investing in companies only which are very blue chip companies which generally expect they’ll continue to grow over years and then you can just — then they should be dividend-paying stocks so that at least you get some income out of that.
I think the main lesson throughout the year has been that, like I talked about, CAGR on your portfolio, that is the only thing, and allocation never go to 0 on equity or 0 on debt or 0 on commodity or something. You need to have minimum allocation ranges as discussed with your professional advisor and come to a number where, if markets are good you want to increase allocation into equity, you can. But over time, then you should reduce it back to where normally it should be. So I think that is the general from the market perspective.
From a corporate perspective, I think to grow in a company, you need to really work hard and you enjoy what you are doing. I think, for me, markets have been always a passion and enjoyment. So even if you’re working 9:00 AM to 6:00 PM, markets are 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM for us, it is like some days are good, some days are like very, very hectic and the markets are swinging all around and then you have to keep your head and keep your sanity, I would say, because sometimes market hits you very hard and then your portfolio is all over the place but then you have to take a decision that what view you have taken, whether it is right or wrong. If you have taken a wrong view, then definitely you should take that call also of cutting your positions but if you feel that your view is right, then you should hold on because markets will, over long time, may revert, as we say and one should not do trading — too much trading on your portfolio, that only hurt the performance.
Radhakrishnan Chonat: Brilliant, brilliant. And to keep your sanity in check, I’m sure you read a lot of books. So this is the constant question that I ask all my guests. What would be a few books or resources that you would highly recommend for investors who want to learn more about the markets or deepen their understanding?
Avnish Jain: So I’ll just give an example. I found a book — like when I started my journey in the fixed income side, learning about markets, there was no book per se defining that this is U.S. market, this is Indian market. There’s no book like that. So you have to go through various publications. I found The Economist a very good publication which used to cover markets, especially U.S. markets, that — earlier U.S. markets were the in-thing and so after reading through those, you come to know what are the factors or drivers people are taking when they look at rates and slowly then you understand what do you need to look at.
And obviously that — what is — I think I learned a lot of knowledge about debt markets in general on interest rate, macroeconomic how to take into account when you are taking interest rate calls. So The Economist was a good kind of, I think, magazine which is still there. Once you get the hang of it, then obviously, you may skim through it because then Bloomberg is always there with you to look at data.
One good book I read — gone through recently about one or two years, so The Bond King. So this person was the head of PIMCO and he was there for 40 years and he is actually the one who actually is — who actually took the market up especially junk bond market and all that market. So he’s the one — his book is quite — he was very, very aggressive. So that was — it came out in the book that in terms of people working with him were not very good, did not find him pleasurable but as a person he defined the bond markets in America. So that is one book which recently, about two three years back, came out.
Radhakrishnan Chonat: Excellent. Avnish, it’s been an absolute pleasure and catching up with you and thank you for explaining fixed income markets for my audience and I look forward to more such interactions with you in future in forums and other catch-up areas. Thank you, Avnish, for taking the time out.
Avnish Jain: Thank you, Radhakrishnan, and I’m happy to be there for any future interactions, happy to engage with the audience to explain fixed income, so, as an industry, we can grow faster and also remove some myths which are there in fixed income. Yes.
Radhakrishnan Chonat: True, very true, very true. Thank you, Avnish.
Avnish Jain: Thank you