Hindware Home Innovation Ltd (NSE: HINDWAREAP) Q3 2025 Earnings Call dated Feb. 17, 2025
Corporate Participants:
Unidentified Speaker
Naveen Malik — Chief Executive Officer and Chief Financial Officer
Nirupam Sahay — Chief Executive Officer of Business
Analysts:
Viraj Mehta — Analyst
Unidentified Participant
Naysar Parikh — Analyst
Maitri Shah — Analyst
Vivek Kumar — Analyst
Analyst
Presentation:
Operator
Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Q3 FY ’25 Earnings Conference Call of Home Innovation Limited hosted by Ariant Capital Markets Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded.
I now hand the conference over to Mr. Ronak Oswal from Arihant Capital Markets. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Unidentified Speaker
Good evening and welcome everyone. On behalf of Ariant Capital Markets Limited, we invite you to Home Innovation Limited’s quarter three and nine months FY ’25 Earnings conference call. From the management side, we have Mr. Nirupam Sahay
Unidentified Speaker
Mr. Nirupam Sahay CEO of Business; Mr. Naveen Malik, CEO and CFO of Hindware Home Innovation Limited; and Mr. Sandeep Sikka, the Group CFO. Kindly note that some of the remarks or observations made during today’s conference might be forward-looking such as financial projection or statements regarding the company’s plans, objectives, expectations or intentions. The company does not have any obligation to revise these forward-looking statement to reflect any future events or developments. For a comprehensive disclaimer, please refer to Slide number 2 of the result presentation.
With that, I would now like to hand over the call to the management for their opening remarks post which we will open for question-and-answer session. Thank you, and over to you, Mr. Naveen.
Naveen Malik — Chief Executive Officer and Chief Financial Officer
Good evening, everyone. Navin Malik the side. Welcome to Hindra Innovation Limited quarter three and nine months FY ’25 earnings call. I will start with a brief summary of our performance for the first-nine months of FY ’25. In-quarter three FY ’25, the consolidated revenue was INR594 crores with an EBITDA of INR37 crores, reflecting a continued subdued demand environment. For the nine months of FY ’25, revenue reached INR1,824 crores and EBITDA was INR132 crores. Our CEO pipe, Mr is slightly under weather with seasonal violence, hence he is unable to join us on the call. We will be sharing updates on the pipe business. Despite challenging market conditions and volatile prices impacting revenue growth. Through flow delivered strong volume growth. In-quarter three FY ’25, we reported pipe revenue of INR189 crores and EBITDA of INR13 crores. For the nine months of FY ’25, revenue was INR539 crores and EBITDA was INR37 crores. We achieved an 11% year-over-year volume increase in nine months FY ’25, demonstrating the effectiveness of our strategies and strength of our operations. CPVC remains a key contributor, representing over 38% of revenue during nine months FY ’25, highlighting the continued strength of this product-line. Building on this operational strength, we continue to focus on product innovation. This quarter, we launched core products for underground and we have plans to introduce double wall corrugated pipes and fire splinter systems in coming months. We continue to actively engage with the plundering community through training programs, feedback sessions and industry events. To further support our growth initiatives, our partner, Grant is nearing completion and is set to commence operation — is commit to commence production in the coming months. This will significantly expand our capacity and help us to efficiently cater customers in Northern India. To further strengthen our market position, we are pursuing three strategic priorities, expanding our distribution network and manufacturing capability to reach new customers and deepen penetration in existing markets, offering a comprehensive range of solutions to meet favor customer needs and optimizing margins to capture greater market-share, we are confident these initiatives will drive continued success for. I am delighted to introduce Mr Nirupan Sahai, who joined — who recently joined us as CEO of the Bathway business. Nirupam will now take us through the business update.
Nirupam Sahay — Chief Executive Officer of Business
Thank you, Naveen, and good evening, everyone. As Naveen mentioned, our Q3 performance was impacted by challenging market conditions, including sluggish demand and rising input costs within the bathware industry. Consequently, sales remained subdued. The bathware business delivered INR338 crore revenue and INR35 crores in EBITDA for Q3 FY ’25. For the nine months of FY ’25, revenue was at INR1024,024 crores and EBITDA was INR110 crores. We understand our Q3 results are not where we want them to be and we have undertaken a comprehensive internal review and detailed analysis. Hindwear’s leading brand position, driven by high brand awareness and recall provides a strong foundation for future growth. We are committed to capitalizing on this significant potential in addition to strengthening our distribution and product portfolio to drive accelerated growth. Since joining in mid-January 2025, I have been analyzing the business and identifying key strategic areas. Our primary focus is on refining our go-to-market strategy and strengthening our product portfolio. Furthermore, we are undertaking a comprehensive cost review to identify opportunity for margin expansion through driving operational efficiencies and a zero-based budgeting approach. We anticipate a two to 3/4 timeframe to implement these initiatives and are confident we will begin to see the positive impact on our performance within this timeframe. To ensure we are effectively executing our strategy, we are conducting regular data-driven reviews of our short and medium-term objectives and benchmarking them against evolving market dynamics. Moving to our Consumer Appliances business, we reported a revenue of INR67 crores for the quarter with an EBITDA loss of INR10 crores. For the nine months of FY ’25, revenue stood at INR260 crores with an EBITDA loss of INR14 crores. In our Consumer Appliances business, we are taking decisive steps to improve profitability. This involves a comprehensive product portfolio review, analyzing performance and competitive positioning. We will continue to invest in high-potential areas like kitchen appliances, where we see strong growth opportunities, while strategically streamlining SKUs and categories. Concurrently, we are also reviewing operational costs to identify savings opportunities and improve efficiency. This targeted approach will help us in optimizing resource allocation and driving profitability.
With that, we open it up for Q&A. Are we audible?
Operator
Yes, sir, you are.
Nirupam Sahay — Chief Executive Officer of Business
So we can start with the Q&A.
Questions and Answers:
Operator
Thank you very much. [Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Viraj Mehta from Anigma. Please go ahead.
Viraj Mehta
Yeah. Hello, sir. Sir, my first question is regarding our Bathware division. This — we used to be bellwether in this division, but inch by inch, quarter-by-quarter, year-by year, we have consistently lost market leadership, we have lost market-share and now we have lost even profitability. Our competitors, both listed and unlisted are still doing double-digit, mid-double digit, 12%, 13% margins and we have come down to 5%, 6% margin in this division. And we have consistently lost revenue. Can you please tell us as minority investors, what concrete steps are you taking and why has this happened and what are we trying to do to reverse this? From basically the number-one player in the country, we are now like nowhere to be seen. Why is that happened?
Nirupam Sahay
Yeah. Thank you so much for the question. I think like I mentioned, I have come in recently mid-january into the business, have done a thorough analysis of the business and we are taking steps along a few key parameters to improve the health of the business. The first is the go-to-market. We have a combination of distributors, dealers and brand stores. Those are our channels. We also have e-commerce and we have institutional sales. So those are our primary channels for a growth going-forward. On the institutional sales, we have strengthened the team over the last six months and we’re already starting to see the results of that. The contribution of institutional sales in the last quarter has gone up to 22% versus 19% in the previous quarter. We’re starting to see the results of strengthening the institutional sales team and a strong focus on that already. Similarly in e-commerce, we are driving growth in both the consumer appliances business as well as wherever there are opportunities in the pathware business as well. So e-commerce will also be a growth driver for going-forward and we are focusing on that. On our distributor and dealer network, we are working on strengthening it. We are looking at geographies where we have relative — so what we call high-potential low market-share areas. So we’re looking at strengthening the distributor and dealer network in these high-potential low market-share areas. Now With existing distributors and dealers, making sure that we strengthen the relationship with them with sustained loyalty programs and activities to keep them engaged with the company. And on the brand stores, we are refreshing the older brand stores and there’s a brand-new redesign of all new brand stores that we’re putting in to make it even more attractive for our customers. So the go-to-market across all of these channels is going to be one key factor-in driving future growth. The second is on the product portfolio. We are developing a product portfolio roadmap, not only for the next quarter or two, but basically for the next 18 months. So we’ll have a robust product portfolio roadmap, which covers all price segments, both in sanitary wear and in faucets, also focusing on the premium segment where there is relatively higher-growth in the market. We have a very strong R&D team, which is based out of our plant. So the R&D team is working on a lot of very interesting things, both in consumer appliances and in bathware. So we have a robust product portfolio already starting from quarter-four and going-forward for the next one year and beyond. The third is in terms of deepening our engagement with key influencers. So we’ve had a plumber program for some time. We’ve taken steps already in terms of strengthening the plumber engagement. Again, using automation, so we have a plumber app, which again we strengthened to make sure that we’re able to drive loyalty of plumbers and our architect and ATI designer program also we will be focusing on in a big way in the coming quarters to make sure that our engagement with these key influencers keeps increasing as well. In terms of communication to consumers, which is obviously to-end consumers, we’ll use a combination of above-the-line and below-the-line. There will be work on the brand that you’ll see in the course of the year, but also leveraging digital in a big way. So that’s something that we’ve done over the last few quarters. We will strengthen our digital activities to make sure that we are reaching out to consumers, talking about the benefits of our products and the differentiation versus competition. So these are, I think some of the key parameters in terms of driving growth. At the same time, obviously, we are also focused on improving profitability. So while the EBITDA margin is still double-digits, we believe that obviously we can increase that substantially. So we are working on multiple levers there. One is improving the gross margin. For that, what we’ll be doing is we are pruning all the low-margin products that we have in the portfolio. Low-volume, low-margin products will be pruned. All the new products that we launch will be launched at a higher gross margin existing products to ensure that the overall gross margin mix improves over a period of time. I will also — I mentioned zero-based budgeting. So we’re looking at-cost with a completely fresh eye to make sure that whether it’s in operations in our plants, driving productivity and efficiency in the plant but also looking at every single cost lever, whether it is employee costs, whether it is advertising and promotion costs, etc. All of them are using a zero-based approach versus an incremental versus last year approach. I think through a combination of these factors, we are very confident that over the next two to 3/4, as I mentioned in my opening remarks, we will see a bounce-back in terms of growth, both in Bathware and consumer appliances and definitely an improvement in profitability as well.
Viraj Mehta
Yeah, it’s sir. Sir, my second question is, if we look at the industry as a whole. Where do you think in bathware segment, your market-share will be today.
Nirupam Sahay
Yeah. So we don’t really share the market-share figures. What I can say is that we have a relatively high market-share in the mid premium range of faucets. We have a healthy market-share again in the entry-level and mid-premium pathware, I think a strong focus going-forward is increasing our market-share in premium. As I mentioned earlier, that is a category which is growing relatively faster than mid-premium and entry. So we’ll have a strong focus on driving smart intelligent technology-driven products, innovative products, which will help us to win in the premium segments in both faucets as well as in software.
Viraj Mehta
And sir, in the premium segment, I had just one question. A, don’t you think it’s a slightly cluttered market in terms of the number of new entrants which have entered in the premium segment both in faucets as well as bathware and obviously, the dominance of the largest player still remains. And our brand — second thing is our brand is predominantly a mid-market or slightly above mid-market brand. So what is the acceptability you think we will have in the premium segment where we are trying to focus.
Nirupam Sahay
So we have a brand called which is in the premium segment. So ensuring that we have a strong product portfolio in Kio across, across both sanityware and faucets. So that’s something that we’re strongly focused on and also putting some marketing muscle behind. Now we believe that with the kind of distributor and dealer network that we already have. So that’s our strength. Our distribution has been our strength. I talked about strengthening it further. But really we have a ready-made platform and obviously, not all distributors and dealers will be able to sell premium products, but a large number of them will. So we’ve done a selection of the distributors and dealers that we’ll use to leverage and of course, the brand stores that we have. We have about 650 brand stores now, 70 for tiles and about 580 for. So we’ll be leveraging these brand stores, particularly for the premium products. So I think primarily using digital, e-commerce brand stores and then the distributor and dealer network. So that’s I think where having a robust product portfolio and leveraging these channels, particularly will give us good growth in the premium segment. And I think the mid-premium segment is also something that is critical because that’s become a very, very large part of the market. So I think in that we have Hindware Italian collection. Now that again is something that has given us good dividends over the last few quarters and we are confident that in Italian connection for the mid-premium and KEO in premium, we will have a robust product portfolio. We will have the distribution muscle and relatively new channels that we will use to basically push them. So we are fairly confident that basically in the premium segment, yes, there is competition, but with a robust product portfolio and a very focused channel approach, we have a right to win there as well.
Viraj Mehta
Sir, last is a bookkeeping question. You mentioned that our significant focus will be on digital and will be on e-commerce channel. Today, of our total sales of bathware, what percentage of sales comes through these channels?
Nirupam Sahay
So it would roughly be between 10% and 13% across quarters. Over a period of time, you installed…
Viraj Mehta
Total or each?
Nirupam Sahay
No, I’m talking right now about total. If I look across both Consumer appliances and, there is more sale of the consumer appliance products happening through e-commerce, a sanity where there’s not too much sale either for us or for the industry in general, but faucets there is an opportunity to increase. So the focus within will be on faucets and in consumer appliances on kitchen appliances. So those are the categories that we’ll focus on.
Viraj Mehta
Right. Just a last suggestion, sir. We have talked a lot about e-commerce as well as digital, but our total sales coming out of those channels is predominantly very less and majorly as you said, but our major bread-and-butter bathware still — I leave with not too much clarity in terms of what are we explicitly doing for our largest bread-and-butter and our market leadership product to grow. Thank you so much.
Nirupam Sahay
Thank you.
Operator
The next question is from the line of Utkarsh from Bank of Bernoda Capital Markets. Please go ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Yeah, hi, good evening, sir. Sir, I have a few questions. First on the Consumer Products segment. So like we have made an EBITDA loss of INR8 crore in December quarter and even after operating for more than a decade period in this segment, we have also taken a lot of product and cost rationalization steps in the past few quarters, but still that is not being. So my question to you is that why we are not thinking of exiting this segment and focus your energy entirely in improving the core business, which is the bread and better business for us.
Nirupam Sahay
Yeah. So I think what we have done, as you rightly pointed out, is taken a call and I talked in my opening remarks about the portfolio that we’ll Be going ahead with. The strong focus going ahead in consumer appliances is going to be on kitchen appliances, specifically chimneys, hobbs and cooktops. Now in these products, particularly chimneys, we have a good market-share. We are in the top players in that space. So we’ve developed a strong product portfolio. We’ve got a strong channel which is selling it. So we believe that by focusing on kitchen appliances, we have a path forward for both revenue and profit growth in the future. The second category that we’ll focus on is basically on the heating products, primarily water heaters and to some extent room heaters. So those are the two categories that we plan to focus on. We will get-out of fans, for example. As you know, we were in fans, but we will get-out of fans completely. So our focus of the entire sales team and consumer appliances will then only be on kitchen appliances and on heating appliances, and that’s it. I think with that strong focused approach, building a sustainable business from the point-of-view of growth in top-line and improving profitability quarter-on-quarter. I would treat the last quarter as a little bit of an aberration. We had some regions where we had a loss of the sales team. Those sales teams are now back-in place and we can already start seeing the momentum in this quarter itself. So I think with a strong focus on a few categories, building a strong robust product portfolio, including some smart intelligent products in that space. And I think with the sales team back-and-forth and a strong focus, I believe that we are on the right path. And the idea is not to expand into new categories for some time until we stabilize and grow these categories that I just talked about.
Unidentified Participant
But like just wanted a sense from you, like the share of loss from our JV, which is the water heater business, has been around INR4 crore to INR5 crores per quarter for the past four quarters. So can you please throw some light when do you expect this JV to at least breakeven? And second, on the consumer product segment, do you see mid-single digit or high-single-digit kind of an EBITDA margin in near-future? And if yes, by when we can expect that number to be delivered?
Naveen Malik
So coming to your question on water heaters, the major chunk of losses which are right now coming in the joint-venture or is also on account of higher depreciation and interest with the commercial production start of the factory. We are working on various options, including selling products to other OEMs from the water heater and also evaluating other options for all we can utilize the factory for so that the full loading of the factory comes into the play as soon as possible. Since the plant has been set-up, this is a plant with the European machinery and all those things because Group is our partner. So we are internally evaluating and also talking to various other OEMs load the plant fully. So once the loading pattern comes into the play, we feel the losses should come down on the JV on the joint-venture.
Nirupam Sahay
On the second part of your question, so I think we have a very clear path to getting back to good growth on-top line and improvement in profitability quarter-on-quarter are difficult to give an exact time-frame when we expect to get back to solid profitability, but I think very, very confident in the plans that we have already that we’ll see improvement pretty much quarter-on-quarter as we go along.
Unidentified Participant
Sir, my second question is on your segment. Can you please provide some comment like how has been the demand scenario in the current March quarter period for Bathware segment? And have we take any — taken any pricing action for sanitaryware and faucet portfolio in December quarter? And do we plan to take any price hike in the current March quarter as well?
Nirupam Sahay
Yeah. So the market in this quarter continues to remain subdued. Having said that, basically, we are focusing on making sure that we improve on the per month and per quarter run-rate that we have in terms of top-line. We took a price increase of 4.7% on MRP in faucet in-quarter three. In-quarter four at this point of time, given the subdued demand environment, we are not planning any major price increases in sanitary wear or faucets.
Unidentified Participant
Okay. So we have not taken any price increase for sanitary wear. Is it correct in December quarter?
Nirupam Sahay
Yeah. Just on faucets, 4.7% on MRP.
Unidentified Participant
Okay. And sir, what has been the revenue growth for Sanitary bear and Faucet in December quarter as well as Nine-Month of FY ’25?
Nirupam Sahay
Yeah. So in, we had a degrowth in the quarter of 15.9% and in the nine months, we have a degrowth of 11.7%.
Unidentified Participant
Also, I’m talking specifically for sanitary and faucet, if you can provide the data.
Nirupam Sahay
Yeah, yeah. So this is sanity process that I’m talking about. Also sanity that is separating for that given office?
Unidentified Participant
Yes.
Naveen Malik
I think we can take this question back while we do this. Maybe we can move on.
Unidentified Participant
And third, like what would be the gross margin for our division, say, in December quarter versus previous December quarter.
Nirupam Sahay
So the EBITDA percentage was 10.2% in the quarter and for the nine months, it’s at 10.8%.
Unidentified Participant
Okay, sir. Sir, what would be the expected capex for FY ’25 and ’26 quarters?
Nirupam Sahay
We are actually in the process of finalizing the plans on capex, so I don’t have that figure straight away. Like I mentioned, we are basically looking at everything from a zero-based point-of-view. So I think within a month or so, we will have that final capex plan in-place. I can’t give a figure right now.
Unidentified Participant
Okay. Thanks a lot sir.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Naysar Parikh from Native Capital. Please go ahead.
Naysar Parikh
Yeah, hi. Thanks for taking the question. Again, on the business, right, can you just give us some comment? The disclosure is obviously very less when you see versus competition. So can you just give some color in terms of retail versus projects, what’s doing good versus bad and also either by region or something like that. Just give us some flavor so that we get a sense of what is the reason for the underperformance of you can please?
Nirupam Sahay
Yes. I think as I mentioned earlier, we focused on institutional and strengthening that team and we’ve seen a growth in the institutional sales over the last couple of quarters. So we have a strong single-digit growth in institutional sales, which has happened. Where we faced some headwinds and seen a little bit of de-growth is basically in the general trade.
Now in response to the first question that came, what we are doing is really working on-going back to the distributor and dealer network that we have already, strengthening our relationship with them, building strong loyalty programs with them and looking at opportunities in high-potential low market-share areas where we don’t have strong presence…
Naysar Parikh
What is the reason why we don’t have — like are they paying like a higher commission? Is it quality of the product like what is your diagnosis? Where are we falling short versus competition? Why are dealers not pushing our products is not like things are not getting sold. And if you grew in, retail, we are down 20%, right?
Nirupam Sahay
So I think there are — there are a couple of ways to look at it. One is in terms of geographies, we are very strong in North and have a relatively high market-share in the north. We are strong in large parts of the South where again, we have a relatively high market-share. Central and East would come next. Our West is one region where we’ve over a period of time, not built a very strong distribution network. Now clearly, there is an opportunity because the West is a large market for sanitaryware and for forces. So we will be focusing our efforts on strengthening the West as a full region. And then going micro in the other regions where, like I said, we look at high-potential, low market-share and then make targeted efforts to really grow our market-share there. So if you’re getting into far more granular detail at a region And district and town level to make sure that we strengthen distribution where we need to.
Naysar Parikh
So is the growth in the North market for this quarter given that is the strongest market for us?
Nirupam Sahay
So we don’t share region-wise data.
Naysar Parikh
Okay. No, but sorry, I think it still does — and the first participant also asked the same question, but I don’t think it answers the question. But the question is that what is it that you know where competition is doing better versus us? Is it product? Is it incentive, is it pricing you know what is it that we are going to target? Do we need to change our pricing? What — what is the problem? Is it the brand that is impacted? Is it everything? So you’re talking just the term of high-potential, low market-share, but in that what are we going to do, right, is the question.
Nirupam Sahay
So we talked about several things. I mentioned not only go-to-market, but product portfolio. So looking at the product portfolio across price segments, both in sanitaryware and in faucets, making sure that we have a robust product portfolio, not only for the coming three months, six months, but basically having a product portfolio roadmap for the long-term. So absolutely part of winning in the market in is going to be having the right product portfolio across price segments. There are certain price segments where we have a good portfolio and we have a relatively high market-share. There’s certain price segments where we need to do more in terms of strengthening the product portfolio, having the right price points, using the right channels to sell. I gave premium as an example in an earlier answer. So I think product portfolio is the second part of it, making sure that we have a product portfolio, which is relevant across price segments. And there are particularities in certain markets. Mumbai is different from a Portuguese versus a Delhi. So making sure that we have the right product to win in each one of those markets. So that’s having a targeted approach in terms of product portfolio. And then I talked about the influencer program. So there are multiple things that we’re doing. So it’s not just distribution and dealers and brand stores, it is product portfolio, it is the influencer program so strengthening the plumber loyalty program that we have, strengthening the program that we have architects NPL designers, using digitization and automation more-and-more, whether it’s with our influencers or whether it’s with our customers. So using automation, for example, in customer service as well to make it a better experience for our end consumers. So I think multiple things that we are doing across all the key levers to make sure that we get back to both top-line and profitability improvement.
Naysar Parikh
Okay. And given the margins where they are, are we looking at areas where either costs need to go down or some cost-cutting or are you expecting opex to actually go up because of all the things that you’re going to do and there’ll be more pressure on margins?
Nirupam Sahay
No. So one thing which we had talked about in earlier quarters is we have actually combined the back-end for pathware and consumer appliances. So that has already led to our cost reductions in the last quarter and will definitely be there in this quarter and going-forward. So that’s one thing that we’ve already done. The other, like I said, is we’re using a zero-based budgeting approach to developing the plant for the next financial year to make sure that at a cost level as well, so whether it is in operations in the plants, whether it’s in supply-chain, whether it’s in advertising and promotion, marketing in general and employee costs, of course, on all of them making sure that we’re extremely sharp based on the plans that we have. So the idea is not to increase any of these lines as a percentage of sales, but really look at sharpening it to make sure that the EBITDA then transfers into PBT as well.
Naysar Parikh
Okay. And last question, given the debt level that we have and obviously, given where the stock prices, I’m assuming you may not do more capital raise on equity level. So what is the plan is this debt sustainable if we don’t raise any equity for the next 12 months or are you going to raise equity or if you can talk a bit about that?
Naveen Malik
So as we have recently done a rights issue and which on a consolidated basis has reduced our debt. We are fairly confident with all the initiatives which has talked about, we should come back…
Naysar Parikh
Sir, that of INR700 crores, right?
Naveen Malik
Yes.
Naysar Parikh
Okay. That sustainable is my question.
Naveen Malik
Yeah, because you have to see that on — based on the current run-rate, definitely you will have some questions on it, but we are working on a full recovery path which is there which we are very confident that we should be able to complete that very fast and this debt can be sustained. That’s not an issue.
Naysar Parikh
Okay. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Vatsal Brag from Kingstone Capital. Please go ahead you. Sorry to interrupt. The current participant has been disconnected. We will move on to the next question, it’s from the line of Maitri Shah from Sapphire Capital. Please go ahead.
Maitri Shah
Yes, hello. Am I audible?
Nirupam Sahay
Yes, you are.
Maitri Shah
Hello.
Nirupam Sahay
Yes, now it’s clear.
Maitri Shah
Yeah, most of my questions have been answered. I just wanted to know that on the recovery mark as you mentioned multiple times, how long will it take us to be like EBITDA-positive in the consumer applications appliances business.
Nirupam Sahay
So I think that was a question asked earlier as well. Like I said earlier, it’s difficult to put an exact time-frame, what we are confident of given the strong focus, categories and focused approach in go-to-market and the robustness of the product portfolio that we have going-forward, we will see an improvement quarter-on-quarter. So exact time-frame difficult to give, but I think over the next few quarters, we’ll start seeing the improvements in top-line and bottom line straight away.
Maitri Shah
And any like quantifiable number you can give for the guidance of ’25 and ’26 on-top line and margins?
Naveen Malik
So we are still in the budgeting process. So generally and it’s not advisable to give us such a short-term guidance. So we’ll come back maybe with the medium to long-term guidance, give us a quarter or so.
Maitri Shah
Okay. Thank you.
Operator
And the next question is from the line of Vivek Kumar from Bestpals LLP. Please go ahead.
Vivek Kumar
Sir, am I audible, sir?
Nirupam Sahay
Yes.
Vivek Kumar
Sir, you can we at least tell are we number-one, number two in sanitary and faucets or number three, leave the market-share but at least top — we are in the top 1, 2 or top 1, 2, 3 in both these segments, both sanitaryware and faucets.
Nirupam Sahay
Yes. So I think the way to look at it is combined sanitaryware and faucets, we are definitely a top three player.
Vivek Kumar
Not top three.
Nirupam Sahay
Yeah, the segment that we play.
Vivek Kumar
So you are not top two, you’re in top three. Can I take that?
Nirupam Sahay
Sorry?
Vivek Kumar
You are not in the top two, but in the top three.
Nirupam Sahay
Correct.
Vivek Kumar
Okay. But in bathware?
Nirupam Sahay
No bathware, that what I said…
Vivek Kumar
No. In sanitaryware — in sanitaryware alone, if I take, because you used to be number-one you are still there or you have come to number three or two so in bathware?
Nirupam Sahay
Yeah, I think the way we look at it is and together and there, like I said, we are a top three-player.
Vivek Kumar
So same question that we are trying to ask, I agree and appreciate all the steps that company is taking, but what is the reason why we lost? Okay, you’re doing — we understand we may come back own. Is it product or is it brand or is it — is it other companies doing something that we have failed to catch on with the preferences of the customers and something value has migrated in terms of preferences of customers somewhere? Or is it just we didn’t give enough push to the distributors and the plumber. So just diagnose this part, sir, okay. We clearly now understand what you want to do and what you are going to do, but if you can diagn what led to us losing market-share because we used to be number one.
Nirupam Sahay
Yeah, it’s a little difficult for me to talk about what happened historically since I joined only in January. So obviously, it’s a combination of factors, right? And I think it’s very difficult at this stage to say which one led to what reaction. Having said that, we are looking at what we need to do to take the business back to a strong leadership position, a strong top-line growth and improvement in profitability. I think those are the key parameters that me and my team are working on and we remain focused on that. I think post-quarter what happened would be a little unfair as…
Vivek Kumar
Are you at least confident that whatever led to our market-share loss is not a permanent loss or is it a structural thing that is difficult for us to get back?
Nirupam Sahay
Yeah. I think I can, if you will unequakely say that having spent a month Month now and to the market, been to our plants, met the team, met distributors, dealers, customers. So I am absolutely confident that we are on the right path to get back to both growth as well as improvement in profitability. Absolutely.
Vivek Kumar
So within a year, we would definitely see increase in your market-share too, apart from the growth that least in the bathware?
Nirupam Sahay
Yeah, that’s what I indicated. So all the actions that we’re taking over the next two to 3/4, you’ll start seeing the results.
Vivek Kumar
Just last con-call, you mentioned that there was a 10% saving on the manufacturing cost, like is it done deal or is still going on?
Naveen Malik
So this process is already on. We are trying to in-source a lot of material and that process is already on. But right now, the volumes are not taking in the market, so you’re not seeing the full impact of that. So once the whole set of volume comes back, the manufacturing, as you will understand, has a lot of fixed-cost and the variable-cost structure built into it and part of it is semi. So as the volume builds up, you will see — it has a double advantage to that. You reduce the cost of production and factory, your ability to talk with the distribution also increases substantially and eating the market-share also becomes much easier. So it’s a vehicle which has to now again, you know, pick-up the momentum as was in the past. So I think with all the initiatives which Nirofum is talking about, we should be able to build that momentum, but it may take one or two quarters to fully — and these are not immediate short-term stuff which we can do. Some of the changes are external in nature, so which may take some time, maybe two quarters or 3/4, but there are subset of internal activities which we have thought of and the work has already started on that.
Vivek Kumar
Sir, last question. So are you assuming a market growth in your projections of your growth or let’s say, market-share where it is, still you will be able to get back to your growth path?
Nirupam Sahay
So the idea clearly is that while we are expecting the market growth not to be very-high in the coming year but to gain market-share, obviously, the plan is to grow ahead of the market growth rate.
Vivek Kumar
So you’re assuming some growth in the market, like little bit growth?
Nirupam Sahay
Yeah. So it’s going to be single-digit growth, but within that, basically, we should grow faster than in the market to gain market-share by the end of the year. Absolutely.
Vivek Kumar
Thank you, sir. Thank you very much.
Operator
The next question is from the line of — from Nightstone Capital Management. Please go ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Yeah, hi. Can you share your target EBITDA margins and revenue growth for each segment?
Nirupam Sahay
You mean our projections for FY ’24, ’26?
Unidentified Participant
Yeah. I mean for the near to like for one to two years, your target EBITDA margins and growth for each segment.
Nirupam Sahay
So we have already discussed about this. I think you got disconnected in the interim in the queue. So we are running this entire process internally. Maybe by the next call or next call, we should be able to give some medium to long-term ranges wherein we see that our performance should be. As we had done few years back, so I think we’ll walk that path. So give us a quarter because a lot of internal working is being done both on the cost side, market-leading away into the market-share, market growth and other things. So kindly bear with us for a quarter to have this figures with you.
Unidentified Participant
Sure, okay. And one question on the plastic pipe side. So we have a technology partner and one other player also has the same technology partners. So the EBITDA margins are substantially different in-spite of having the same realization. So like what is stopping us from getting those mid double-digit EBITDA margins in that segment? Is there something else?
Nirupam Sahay
Yeah. So basically, if you have to see this is fairly sort of sort of a young business for us. Now we are now seven, eight years into this business. We have demonstrated extensively. Despite all the downturns in the market, there is a volume expansion which has happened in this business by around 10 — by around 10%, but that’s not visible because input PVC resin prices have come down. So in order to eat away this market and build, as I was saying, in 2021, we had given a guidance that our pipe business by 2025 should be around INR1,000 crores and that time our — we were doing around INR400 crores of business when the guidance was given. So if you see today, if we talk on the same pricing terms as was in 2021, actually, we should have been doing INR1,000 crore-plus. So — but we have got impacted with the reduction in input raw-material prices. But the good part about the whole game is that we have been fairly successful in terms of our strategy on this. But we had to make some investments in order to eat away this market like if you see our manpower cost right now in this business is slightly higher. We have only one plant, so there is additional supply-chain cost to us. So these are the various points or the various delta points on which you see a margin differentiation between other players and us. So with the onset of our ruki plant, which we feel that should start in another few months, there has been a delay there in terms of the equipment coming in. But once we start within next first-quarter or so, you will see — start seeing some improvements happening to incremental sales will also come through and that will overall affect the operating cost leverage for us because the teams which have been employed in terms of the sales, so we’ll be more effective there in terms of percentages. So these are the few pointers on which we can talk in terms of the delta on the margins between other players and us.
Unidentified Participant
Got it. And on the consumer side, so what will we are making in the kitchenware and heating appliances like on-top line, what percentage are we doing on this part, which we are going to retain?
Nirupam Sahay
So at this point of time, 75% of the sale that we do in consumer appliances is kitchen appliances. Going-forward, like I said, because we are focusing on only kitchen appliances and heating appliances in the short-term at least and probably medium-term. That mix is unlikely to change much because we have a strong focus on growing in kitchen appliances where our right-to-win is strong. We have a very strong product portfolio. We have dedicated brand stores for it. So we expect that segment that we’re focusing on to drive growth going-forward. So that ratio will remain similar probably going-forward.
Unidentified Participant
Got it. And what will be our percentage of fans which like we are going to get our top it completely, right?
Nirupam Sahay
Yes, fans, absolutely. So we’ve stopped basically the fan business and we will the stock that we have, we will get rid of and there’s no future plan for selling fans.
Unidentified Participant
Got it. And if it’s possible, can…
Operator
Mr. — can you please…
Unidentified Participant
Okay. I’ll fall-back in the queue. Yeah.
Operator
Okay. Thank you so much. The next question is from the line of Rashmi Gosa from Equity Research. Please go ahead.
Analyst
Thanks for the opportunity. I had a follow-up question on the plastics and pipes business only. Sir, a revenue annualized right now it’s around INR730 crores. Utilization is already 77% and we are at around 7% EBITDA margin. I just want to understand this plant, how much is the potential revenue we can add over here, A, and beyond — you already illustrated some examples that can we go to double-digit EBITDA margins with INR1,000 crore revenue and if this is possible by when can this happen?
Naveen Malik
Yeah. So with the — I’ll just start with the plant. So plant is capable with all the fittings which we’ll supply from Hyderabad, technically, our coverage in the North will increase. So from plant, the total supplies sales can be a figure of around INR225 crores to INR250 crores. This is with a capacity of 12,500 initial capacity, although we have been saying that we build the infrastructure of the plant so that future expansion becomes easy in this. But right now with the capex done, we can do around INR250 crores. So in terms of a double-digit mark market — double-digit expansion, so there are some levers which we already talked about. One is our fixed-cost structure is right now higher. So if the value of the sales increase, so let’s say, had there not been a drop-in the input resin prices. You would have seen our EBITDA margin expanding substantially because in nine months, we have done around 10%, 11% of volume expansion, but the value expansion is not there. So all this is — the input raw-material prices once it starts increasing, so it will add directly to the bottom-line. We had given a guidance that long-term, we should be able to achieve the markets are back and PVC resin prices are somewhere in the range of 85 90 Plus you know we should have healthy around 10%, 12% EBITDA margin.
Analyst
Okay. And just plan, when does it start full production in the first year, what kind of utilization levels are you anticipating, sir?
Naveen Malik
So we feel somewhere in April, May we should start partially with — as the machines are getting, you know because this is of machines. So as the machine comes in, we’ll start production. And the full loading of not may can — may take around nine months where it will be around somewhere around 70% 75% loaded.
Unidentified Participant
So okay. Sir, the last question is, I missed out on the debt figure. After the rights issue of INR400 crore, what is the current outstanding net-debt? And based on the cash flows we’ll anticipate how can we see this debt figure going down in the next two years?
Naveen Malik
So we did a writes of INR250 crores, not INR400 crores, after which the total debt size today, net-debt is around INR700 crores. Right now, I think your questions are very apt considering the current profitability, how the — how the whole service of debt is going to happen. But we are confident with all the initiatives, the EBITDA is going to flow-back and we will have a substantial free-cash flows from operations to pay that — pay the debt which is which is there on the company.
Unidentified Participant
Okay. Thank you, sir. That’s it from my side and best of luck.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Vivek Kumar from Bestpals LLP. Please go ahead.
Vivek Kumar
Sir, am I audible, sir?
Nirupam Sahay
Yes, please.
Vivek Kumar
Sir, in the Consumer Product division, we would be concentrating only on the kitchen appliances and the heating and coolers also we are out right?
Nirupam Sahay
Yeah, coolers we may sell only through e-commerce channel.
Vivek Kumar
Okay. That is that is for now for the next few years?
Nirupam Sahay
Yeah. At this point of time.
Vivek Kumar
So you have been enumerating all the steps that you’ve taken. So in terms of market-share and growth, even if assuming a low-single digit total market growth, when will we see because we still have Western parts of which we can improve our penetration and all, when can we see real good sustainable growth in sanitary wear or bathware? How many quarters after which you will get the confidence that was we are on the track, we are done with the downturn.
Nirupam Sahay
I think as Mrs Sikana have mentioned, we expect all the initiatives that we’re putting into play, both on growth and cost to kick-in the next two to three quarters.
Vivek Kumar
By the end of next year, we should be on the growth path, right, both in terms of…
Nirupam Sahay
Correct.
Vivek Kumar
Sir, only one last question is there a — at least this part, I’m not asking you to do the whole diagnosis for me, but is the brand got hit somewhere or you’re still — you’re still confident that your brand is still doing good in the sanitary, sanitary where I’m asking is, did the brand get hit?
Nirupam Sahay
So in all consumer research that we do, the unaided brand recall for is the highest in the industry. So the plan continues to be extremely strong. So aided recall is the highest. Aided recall is also very-high. So I think the key is through all the actions we’re taking, converting that awareness into preference, basically getting people to buy. So awareness of the brand is not the issue. It is basically then using being there where consumers are buying the products, so the go-to-market, having the right products at the right price points and also leveraging the influencers. I think all of those will basically go and help us in terms of gaining share there.
Vivek Kumar
Sir, in the sites division, if you can — if you do not mind, please share more information in the presentation in terms of institutional versus retail, what percentage and what are the segments we are selling or if you can tell on the call, it’s okay either way. So the pipeline is it quarterly B2C?
Nirupam Sahay
Pipe business is our distributor business. So we sell-out to a distributor. So it’s not a direct — we don’t go directly to the builders like that. So that market opportunity still exists for us. But right now, the focus is purely on distributing it across the country. So maybe few — few percentage of it might be going through into the — into the projects, but essentially through the distributor. That distributor might be tapping into it. Right now, we are not doing that.
Vivek Kumar
But you are not — in-demand you’re not calculating or you’re not tracking?
Nirupam Sahay
Sorry, I couldn’t get you.
Vivek Kumar
End — where it is going, projects are normal how you’re not tracking that right, that’s what I’m asking?
Nirupam Sahay
Distributors will not let you know like where they are selling because other than that’s the four competitors they are.
Vivek Kumar
Thank you, sir. Thank you very much and all the best.
Operator
Thank you. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, due to time constraint, this was the last question for today’s conference call. I now hand the conference over to the management for their closing comments.
Nirupam Sahay
Thank you everybody for joining the call today. I know the results have not been that great, but I — but the number of initiatives which we have spoke — we have spoken about, we are fairly confident we will come back very fast. So thanks. Thanks for all the questions and we appreciate it. Thank you.
Naveen Malik
Thank you.
Operator
[Operator Closing Remarks]