Grasim Industries Limited (NSE: GRASIM) Q2 2025 Earnings Call dated Nov. 15, 2024
Corporate Participants:
Ankit Panchmatia — Head, Investor Relations
Pavan K Jain — Chief Financial Officer
Rakshit Hargave — Chief Executive Officer, Birla Opus
H K Agarwal — Managing Director
Sandeep Komaravelly — Chief Executive Officer, Birla Pivot
Analysts:
Mihir Shah — Analyst
Manoj Menon — Analyst
Sumangal Nevatia — Analyst
Sheela Rathi — Analyst
Nirav Jimudia — Analyst
Abneesh Roy — Analyst
Percy Panthaki — Analyst
Pratik Kumar — Analyst
Amit — Analyst
Bhavin Chheda — Analyst
Naveen — Analyst
Raashi Chopra — Analyst
Jay Doshi — Analyst
Presentation:
Operator
Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to Grasim Industries Q2 FY ’25 Earnings Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] Please note that this conference is being recorded.
I now hand the conference over to Mr. Ankit, Head, Investor Relations. Thank you and over to you, sir.
Ankit Panchmatia — Head, Investor Relations
Yeah. Thank you, Sejal. Good morning, and thank you all for joining this call to discuss our second quarter financial year 2025 performance. The financial statements, press release and presentation are uploaded on the exchanges and on our website. Our management team is present on this call to discuss our results and business performance. To introduce them, we have with us Mr. Harikrishna Agarwal, Managing Director; and Mr. Pavan Jain, Chief Financial Officer for Grasim Industries. Also joining with us on this call are Mr. Jayant Dhobley, Business Head of Chemicals, Fashion Yarn and Insulator Business; Mr. Himanshu Kapania, Business Head; and Mr. Rakshit Hargave, CEO of our paints business, which is Birla Opus. We also have with us Mr. Sandeep Komaravelly, CEO of Birla Pivot, which is our B2B e-commerce business.
For safe harbor kindly refer to our cautionary statement highlighted in the last slide of our presentation.
Let me now hand over the call to Mr. Pavan Jain for his opening remarks, post which we will open the call for Q&A. Over to you, sir.
Pavan K Jain — Chief Financial Officer
Thank you, Ankit, and good morning, everyone. We welcome you to the Grasim Industries earnings call for the quarter ended 30 September, ’24. At the outset, Aditya Birla Group and Grasim family wishes each one of you and your families a very Happy Diwali and prosperous New Year, Vikram Samvat 2081. Let me start with the macro commentary and then I will talk about the business environment and performance for the quarter ended 30 September, ’24. The year 2024 is witnessing increasing complexities around geopolitical environment and supply chain diversification. These complexities are creating growth imbalance around the world economies.
Talking about major economies, the recently concluded elections results in the U.S. are likely to put focus on growth, inflation and interest rates. After surprise 50 basis points rate cut delivered in September ’24 by Fed, it further lowered its benchmark overnight borrowing rate by 25 basis points in November. This brings down the target range from 5.25% to 5.5% in September ’24 to now 4.5% to 4.75%. The rate cut was on the back of stronger than expected data on labor, inflation, retail sales, consumer sentiment and the GDP growth. The U.S. GDP growth continues to grow over 2% for the last eight quarters in line with the September projections of summary of economic projections released by the Fed.
Moving on to the emerging markets, China announced a five-year package of $1.4 trillion [Phonetic] as economic support. However, the nominal GDP growth rate continues to remain impacted by the country’s focus on stabilizing its real estate market, prevent financial risks and prioritize industrial development. Coming to India, multiple domestic growth indicators have shown signs of easing in recent months. Rural consumption momentum appears to have convincingly taken over the urban consumption on the back of better farm activity led by the normal monsoon. While the IIP has recovered in September ’24, India’s inflation hedge touched 6.2% in October ’24, which is highest in 14 months and average FY ’25 inflation now reading at 4.8%, 4.9%. These are higher compared to RBI FY ’25 inflation expectations of 4.5%.
Coming to our company, presence across key themes of growing Indian economy, driving diverse opportunity remains the key pillar for delivering consistent growth at Grasim. Talking about our financial performance for the quarter, consolidated revenue grew by 11% Y-o-Y to INR33,563 crore posting 16th consecutive quarter of Y-o-Y revenue growth, which highlights Grasim’s consistent journey of growth, innovation and leadership. The standalone revenue for the quarter stood highest ever at INR7,623 crore. Consolidated EBITDA stood at INR4,042 crore, which is lower by 10% Y-o-Y, mainly due to lower profitability in cement business and initial investments in building Birla Opus, a leading brand in the Indian decorative paints market.
Talking about segmental performance, let me start with the building materials. UltraTech continues to outperform the industry growth rate. The company has added grey cement capacity of 9.9 million tons till October ’24 in the current financial year and plans to further add 6.3 million tons taking the total grey cement capacity to 162.4 million tons per annum by FY ’29. And of course, this does not include the Kesoram and India Cement capacity as the acquisition process is underway awaiting regulatory approvals. The company remains on track to achieve grey cement capacity of over 200 million tons per annum by financial year 2027.
While there are demand slowdown — there was demand slowdown due to elections, intense heat conditions and then longer duration of monsoons in most part of the country, realization also declined this quarter. Such interim slowdowns do not impact the long-term growth hypothesis and we remain confident that UltraTech remains poised to ride on India’s growing demand for infrastructure and urbanization. Our paints business under brand Birla Opus continues to perform in line with our expectations. The utilization levels are ramping up month-on-month at three plants commissioned in Q1, namely in Ludhiana, Panipat and Cheyyar. We have also started trial runs at two more plants at Chavara Nagar in Karnataka and Mahar in Maharashtra.
Our sixth plant at Kharagpur in West Bengal is expected to go live in Q4 FY ’25. After successful launch of first advertisement campaign of Duniya Ko Rang Do which established brand Birla Opus in consumers’ mind, we have now launched second campaign Naye Jamane Ka Naya Paint. This ad campaign focuses on superior quality of Birla Opus products across interior, exterior and waterproofing categories. The geographic reach and dealer onboarding activities are as per plans and we are on track to exit this year with high single-digit market share in the Indian decorative paints market.
Revenue of our B2B e-commerce business Birla Pivot is gradually ramping-up and remains on track to achieve $1 billion revenue in three years’ time frame as announced in FY ’24. The business has expanded its pan-India reach to over 375 cities across 26 states and union territories. Moreover, the offerings are expanded to 35 product categories comprising of 40,000 SKUs sourced from 300 plus Indian and international brands. The business is continuously improving the journey of digitalization by launching multiple tools for buyers and sellers and building a completely digitalized B2B ecosystem.
As regards to revenue data of both these new growth businesses, you will please appreciate the industry landscape wherein we are the new entrant. You will please also appreciate that we are well-known for sharing all relevant details at the appropriate time. Coming to cellulosic fiber business division, we have seen improving trends globally in demand for cellulosic fibers due to inventory normalization and better sustainability credentials. The stable demand scenario globally has led to Y-o-Y improvement in China CSF prices by 6% in Q2 FY ’25. Furthermore, in China markets, the inventory levels have come down to eight days in this quarter from 12 days in Q2 of last year. Domestic realizations improved on back on the increase in international prices. CSF business achieved highest ever quarterly sales volume of 219,000 tons in this quarter. CFY business remains impacted due to low priced imports from China, though the demand marginally improved on back of festival time in India.
Moving on to chemicals. CFR as Southeast Asia caustic prices marked fifth consecutive quarter of improvement. Domestic prices of caustic also showed improvement during the quarter. However, EQ is lower due to oversupply of chlorine leading to higher negative realization. Our caustic soda sales volume were lower by 4% Y-o-Y, mainly due to maintenance shutdown of captive power plants at our largest integrated facility at Vilayat. Chemicals business EBITDA for Q2 FY ’25 was up 16% Y-o-Y, mainly led by chlorine derivatives and specialty chemicals. Financial services business recorded robust performance across different businesses with NBFC segment reporting revenue growth of 19% and housing finance and life insurance segment reporting revenue growth of 42% each on Y-o-Y basis.
The company’s omnichannel architecture provide customers flexibility to choose their preferred mode of interaction across digital platform, branches and virtual relationship managers. The business D2C platform, ABCD, Aditya Birla Capital Digital which went live in April ’24 offers 22 product categories and has more than 2.5 million app customers. Total lending portfolio and average set under management stood at nearly INR138,000 crores and INR564,000 crores, respectively, in the current quarter. We wish to also inform that the proposed amalgamation of Aditya Birla Finance with Aditya Birla Capital which was announced in March ’24 has received no objection from RBI. The Amalgamation scheme now approval from NCLT Ahmedabad and is expected to get completed in next six months.
In other businesses, during the quarter, our textiles business profitability was impacted by high input costs in linen business. The business reported EBITDA loss of INR17 crore. The renewable business capacity has surpassed milestone of 1 gigawatt. With the projects under implementation, the renewable capacity is expected to reach 2 gigawatt in the current financial year. The business has strong anchored clientele with Aditya Group companies representing 42% of the existing customer portfolio. On the capex front, the Board has approved additional capex for current financial year of INR138 crore, of which INR118 crore is for the capacity increase at pulp plant at Harihar and INR20 crore is for the normal modernization at textile plants.
For FY ’25, the revised capex is INR4,700 crores, of which growth capex in new businesses is about INR3,000 crore, which is about 64% of the total capex. As you are aware, we had announced raising INR4,000 crore via rights issue in October ’23, which experienced an overwhelming response with subscription of nearly 2 times. Out of this, INR2,000 crore is already raised and now the Board has approved for second and final call raising balance INR2,000 crores. The record debt has been fixed at 13 December, ’24. On the sustainability front, we are happy to share that our global ESG score from DJSI stands at its highest ever level of 71 with a significant improvement of 5 points and it brings us among the top 13% of the companies in the industry globally.
We can now move on to Q&A. Request the operator to open the Q&A.
Questions and Answers:
Operator
[Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Mihir Shah from Nomura. Please go ahead.
Mihir Shah
Hi, sir, good morning. Thank you for taking my question. Rakshit, first question actually is on paints division. If you can give any insights on which regions are doing well for you and contributing to higher sales given that you already have a pan-India presence across depots? Are all regions vis-a-vis receiving a full range of products? So that’s the first question. A sub part to that is on the tinting machines, say, if a dealer has already two tinting machines, are they keeping yours as a third one or are you seeing any replacement happening there or are these completely new or small dealers who just have one tinting machine or no tinting machines? So that’s my first question.
Rakshit Hargave
Okay. So thank you, Mihir. Let me answer the first question first. So yes, we are now present pan-India in all the regions. But as you would know, we first started with the North and South and the Eastern region was the last where we entered with our products. So in terms of the recency, the Eastern region is maybe a couple of months behind. But what we can tell you from the trends of the last three or four months is that more or less all the regions are performing very well and they are all more or less in line. See, we are adding distribution growth, which is happening symmetrically across all the regions, which is also getting us growth. So I think it is very early for us to say if a particular region is outperforming any other region. There are small gaps here and there, but by and large, we are happy with the progress across India.
In terms of tinting machines, like we said, we had a very aggressive plan to place a very large number of tinting machines and we are actually absolutely in line with the plan, maybe even a bit ahead. What I can tell you is that all the dealers who have taken our machines, in many places, they have taken our machines as the second or third machine also. In some situations, they have removed a computation machine or put it in the backyard and using our machine more because we also have information about our machine usability because we are using a technology for the first time in the paint industry that gives us live information of tinting. So we are very happy that the large number of tinting machines that we have placed have made that place permanent in all these deals.
Mihir Shah
Got it. Thank you. Secondly, I wanted to talk a bit — if you can talk a bit on the third-party certification that you spoke about, which is confirming the first kind — can you give a little more insights on what that statement really means and what is the third-party certification?
Rakshit Hargave
So you see, we have launched a lot of products and we were very confident about the product quality that they have superior performance. So we have gone ahead and tested some of our products with NABL certified labs. One of the labs is GBM, which has given us the certification of performance, which also allows us to make some claims and support them.
Mihir Shah
Okay. So the differentiation…
Operator
Sorry to interrupt you, sir. I would request you to rejoin the queue for your follow-up question. Thank you. [Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Manoj Menon from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead.
Manoj Menon
Hi, team. Just a couple of clarifications on the paints business. One, Rakshit and team, if you could comment about some numbers in terms of primary, secondary revenue, let’s say, collection efficiency, some of those operating metrics, please? Thank you.
Rakshit Hargave
Yeah. So Manoj, while Pavan said that we will share the financial numbers at the appropriate time, what I can tell you is that our operations are running very efficiently. We also measure sell-out from dealers. So sell-out measuring unlike the FMCG industry is a bit challenging because the paint industry works in a different way, but we have two mechanisms. One is through our track and trace when a contractor scans, we know from which dealer has it come. So we are able to project the sell-out. Secondly, we are also doing audits of a large number of stores and working backwards on the inventory lying at the dealer. So what I can tell you is that our sell-out is very high. At any given time, none of our dealers is holding more than a certain couple of weeks or three weeks of stock.
So we are very confident that more than 65%, 70% of stock is already sold out. Also, you would know that we have tinting machine which synchronize live. So we have actual information across a very large number of stores how much product is being printed, which also gives us an idea of what is being sold out. Also from a collection efficiency point of view, we are very happy. See, we are adding a lot many dealers month-on-month and the cycle of payment from the dealers is pretty consistent and we don’t see any outstanding line in the market, which is of any concern. In fact, it is quite healthy and maybe better than the market norms.
Manoj Menon
That’s very glad to hear. Second, the two sub-questions here and that’s the last one. One, in an industry in which there is no MRP concept, right, it’s only dealer operated prices, I mean, okay, I’m thinking about the dealer profitability in the context of you actually going wide or let’s say, the ability of the dealer to retain all the margins. Isn’t it reduces because there is always a competing dealer nearby? Second sub question here is the — any comments on your thoughts about inorganic? Is it relevant or not even in the thoughts currently? Thank you.
Rakshit Hargave
Correct. Yeah. So yes, on MOP, well, yes, the consumer, there is no MRP on the pack as in consumer of the industry. But what we can tell you is that you see, we have an offer for the end-consumer, which is in the form of 10% free and I would also want to use this forum to give a clarification because some analysts and also some competition companies have been making comments that we have reduced our stock by 10% free promotion. I would want to clarify that 10% free on all emulsions across 10 and 20 liters exists pan-India. Now let me come back. The dealers are getting our products at a landed price, which is far attractive as compared to competition. They are very happy to sell it at a price which is more or less equal to the market leader. In some places, some smart dealers are also charging 2% more because there is 10% free.
So from a profitability point of view, the dealers are facing a challenge of profitability and they see Birla Opus as an important vehicle where they can actually generate better returns. So while we are driving distribution and we have a very large number of dealers, we don’t have any significant news of any price challenges here or there. So we are quite confident that we are able to maintain that. Your second question, yes, there have been news in the market about inorganic and things which have been coming in the past few weeks, but our CFO has already given clarification to SEBI that at the moment, there is nothing happening like that.
Manoj Menon
Okay. Thank you, sir.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sumangal from Kotak Securities. Please go ahead.
Sumangal Nevatia
Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity. Sir, my first question is more on a big picture from a strategy point of view. If you look at VSF division, it’s running almost at rated capacity. So beyond basically whatever is the debottlenecking announced, what are our thoughts on capital allocation years from the next three to five year point of view? Given the commodity nature of business and low ROCEs, are we — do we believe that majority of fresh capital will get absorbed in new ventures like paint?
Pavan K Jain
Yeah. So you are right about the VSF business. It is already operating almost a 100% capacity. You are also — I think we have shared the data and you are aware that the VSF business is growing at a faster speed than the other textile fibers in the country as well as globally, okay? So as the demand continues to grow, we will look at some opportunities. At present, we are working on the debottlenecking opportunities that we have already shared. The other lever is the exports, which we are currently doing, of course, at very low level, but that lever is also available for meeting the domestic requirement. I will request Agarwal ji to please.
H K Agarwal
So yes, this is a good situation to be and capital allocation is an important matter for Grasim. While new businesses have shaped well and they are in the process of developing international potential, we will also nurture the existing businesses with the basic driving force that we have to maintain our market position while maintaining profitability also. So all our new capex systems are being formulated keeping this profitability factor in mind in a very modern management. So there are many drivers and we will examine all such levers expanding our VSF capacity further in India.
Sumangal Nevatia
Okay, understood. Sir, I have one basic question on the paint division. I mean, at the start of the year, we said high single-digit exit. Our sense was somewhere around 8%, 9%. So I just wanted to know based on how 1H has been versus our business plan and a little bit of ongoing industry headwinds. Is there any positive or negative change to our confidence? And also now given that we are well on the ground and next three plants are also coming up, some color if you can give for how should we look at FY ’26?
Rakshit Hargave
So let me take this question. Firstly, the mention about headwinds in the industry, so yes, we have seen the results coming out from all the paint majors. As far as we are concerned, we indicated that we will exit the year at high single-digits. We are well on that path. So if we take a look at our sale for last quarter or if I take a look at my sale of September and my September is significantly more than my July because I’m growing every month, we see no reason to believe why we will not be able to exit the year at high single-digits. Secondly, from a headwind point of view, you see, there might be some slowness in the market, but I think there is a bit of exaggeration about headwind and slowdown from competition. Because if we add our number to the market, the market is actually a bit in the green and we have also had a reasonably good October. So we see no reason why we should be shying away from what we have said that we will exit the year at single-digit at the higher level by the end of the year. On FY ’26, that is our next year, that is a part of our journey that we have disclosed and that will happen. So we would not want to mention on that right now.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sheela Rathi from Morgan Stanley. Please go ahead.
Sheela Rathi
Yeah, thanks for taking my question. My first question was probably in continuity to the previous question with respect to the paints division. Now you just mentioned that the demand conditions are not as bad as it’s being called out. If you could just elaborate more in terms of how it’s working in favor for you when you’re adding distribution at this point of time? And if there is more color you can add-in terms of why you’re saying the demand conditions are not as bad?
Rakshit Hargave
So you see, like we said, we have sold a certain quantity. Our sell-outs are excellent. Retailer acceptance is high. We are getting counter share, which is very good in all the counters where we are present. The acceptance by contractors and dealers is also very excellent because the quality of products that we have launched is better than what exists in the market. So I think we have been able to excite the paint ecosystem with the entry of Birla Opus, which is making the dealers very positive and which is why we also see a lot of dealers coming and adopting us. So if I see from our business point of view, yes, the truth is that we have taken market share from competition. There is — it is extremely unlikely that I would have generated thousands of new customers who have started to paint who were not existing in the ecosystem. So I obviously have taken market share. But if we see the overall ecosystem, yes, there could be some slowdown in the market, but the market is definitely not in red. So that is how we will put the situation.
Sheela Rathi
Very clear. Just a follow-up to that. The competitive intensity for sure has gone up from the existing players. Is there anything you are witnessing from your end, which is making you make changes to your strategy going ahead? And my second question is also connected to that is that as we’ll have all our capacity on board by the end of this year, this calendar year, what will be the focus area? I’m not asking for numbers here, but from brand building, distribution building, where would we want to be ahead in the next six months in terms of focus area?
Rakshit Hargave
Okay. So let me first mention on the competitive intensity. So we had already in our playbook imagined competitive intensity and it is more or less playing as per that. So it is not a question of surprise for us, but yes that what we had assumed that how competition will behave is happening exactly as per that. Also, let me add that the level of competition in the paint industry as compared to other paint industries was very low. It was a question of a market leader doing something and everybody else following it like [Indecipherable]. We have kind of broken that comfortable ecosystem and I think it’s for the benefit of the consumer because there is better product, there is more choice. And I think it was bound to happen. So from a market reaction point of view, obviously.
If you read the results of competition, they talk about higher trade discounts, etc, you can see that reflecting on their P&L. So it is a result of what we have done. If you ask us going ahead, going ahead, our playbook is same. We will continue driving distribution. We will continue driving handler share as you say, our counter share amongst all dealers. We still have a long way to go in terms of distribution because the market is very big. We are also going to complete our portfolio. There are some products which are still entering the market, which are going to enter. We are also focusing a lot on opening specialty franchise stores. All these initiatives which we have put will keep continuing and our revenue will be driving top line, driving market share. But obviously, like we have said that we want to be profitable at the end of first full three years. So that is the long-term view. So there is no change in that.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nirav from Anvil Research. Please go ahead.
Nirav Jimudia
Yeah, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. I have two questions on chemicals. So first is on the epoxy side. I think we have seen some dip in the sales this quarter. So was it because of lower sales volume or was it because of a change in the product mix because of which our realizations would have been lower?
Pavan K Jain
Yeah. So neither as you know, Nirav, generally monsoon is a slower period for construction and a lot of epoxies go into the construction sector. So that is primarily the driver. It indirectly also affects windmill installations because the level of windmills that happen — erections that happened during monsoon slowdown. So there has neither been any structural slowdown in the industry nor any loss of market-share. If anything, we believe that we have either maintained or improved our market share.
Nirav Jimudia
Got it. And sir, your thoughts on putting up a new integrated complex for epoxy and ECH. Also wanted to understand from you like when we export out our epoxy volumes to the geographies — various geographies, on what basis do we compete with them? So is it more on the product differentiation or it is more on the price do we compete with them?
Pavan K Jain
Nirav, you’ve asked a big question. I will split your question in two, three parts, if I may so that I can make each underlying point clear. So as you know, some antidumping has been announced on ECH, right, which will impact the epoxy chain. I’m sure you’re wondering what the impact on that will be. And I think that is triggering your question. So first of all, as you know, we are already running an ECH project, which will get commissioned next financial year. So that makes us more or less 80% integrated already as far as the ECH is consumed. So then we will have maybe some 10, 20 kilotons that we will buy externally. In our existing site in Vilayat, we already have space for further doubling of our ECH capacity.
We have the environmental clearances in place and we have already started doing the engineering work on that so that we can generate capex estimates, etc., and take it to the board, which means that in a reasonable time frame, not only would our Vilayat site be completely integrated into ECH based on existing capacity, but actually we will have some 10, 15 kilotons surplus left which we can trade, sell, etc, etc. And as you know, this gives us a completely integrated situation because we are backward integrated into caustic. We sometimes have some of our own small salt as well. We make our own ECH, we go into epoxy, we do epoxy formulations, reactive diluents, all of it, right?
Third, as you also probably know, but I would like to remind you is we have also acquired the land in Vilayat next to our existing chemical factories in Grasim. And we have possibility to further double our epoxy capacity. As you know, the epoxy market grows somewhere between 1.5 to 1.8 times GDP in the longer-term, right, which means the epoxy market will double every five to six years. So if you just work backward and if we want to maintain our market position, we will easily also double our capacity in that timeframe, right? And we will not lose our market position. In fact, we will grow our market position.
Now let me come to your part on how do we compete. So there are different ways we compete. We have a large patent portfolio. We are India’s largest epoxy player, but we have also been in this business as a group for over 40 years. So we have a portfolio that we offer, which includes liquid epoxy resins, it includes reactive diluents, hardeners, powder coating materials, etc. So we compete primarily based on a differentiated product portfolio, understanding applications of end customers and not so much on price. And epoxy end applications are highly critical in terms of performance requirements.
I will give you a very simple example. The largest part of cars in India will be coated using an epoxy in our — a formulation which will contain our epoxy. Car companies will give you guarantees on the body of the car, right? So you can imagine that when an automotive company wants to formulate any type of new epoxy formulation, it’s not just about price. It’s about proven track record, proven performance and we offer that entire package. So you asked the question, but I thought let me split it into different parts. There is a sort of value chain and expansion aspect, right? I hope that answers your question, Nirav.
Nirav Jimudia
Absolutely. And sir, second question is on the presentation slide where we have shown that there is an upward pressure in VSF due to the increase in the prices of sulfur, caustic and pulp. So just wanted to understand from you like when we compare our ECU and other players ECU, which they have reported for Q2, I think ours is far better a number. So was it because more of our caustic sold due to the contracted volumes with the group companies or was it because more of the flake which we have sold this quarter and which is moving up the overall ECU? And second bit to this is, let’s say, if we are seeing the price increase in the caustic for the VSF division, how much of price increases would have happened in October and November over and above the Q2? Thank you so much.
Pavan K Jain
Okay. So I’ll answer a little bit of your question, not all of it, because some of it is sensitive as you can imagine. So look, we optimize our caustic portfolio across on a pan-India basis, right, because we are the only significant or perhaps the only real pan-India player in the caustic industry. Everybody else has a regional focus, which essentially means that we have a different way to approach pricing than many of our competitors. Secondly, as you know, we have capacities of liaise, flake, etc. We also look at the export market and very often we have very quick market intelligence on what is happening in global markets that allows us to take quick practical decisions.
We have always a mix of spot and sale. So it becomes quite complicated to unravel our ECU in terms of what is the geography effect, what is the live effect, what is a spot versus contract effect and that is something that we of course will not be fully transparent about in this setting. Except to say that we are usually very price conscious in the sales market. Being the largest caustic player, we have the most to lose when caustic price reduces, right? So we are usually the one that tries to maintain price discipline the best we can. Now ECU another side and that is chlorine and it’s always a balance between caustic and chlorine. The more the caustic demand, the more pressure there is to sell chlorine.
So you have seen that in the current quarter, chlorine has moved further negative, Nirav. The chemical industry tracks prices every day. But net-net, a better ECU is a positive for Grasim as a company since a much smaller percentage of our caustic sales are within the company, right? So net-net, a higher ECU is a net positive for Grasim. Now as far as intercompany transactions are concerned, they are primarily arms length, actually even within our businesses, it is arms length. Within chemical business also, it is at arms length basis. That’s a very fundamental group principle, Nirav, we’ll never deviate from that. So you can always assume that any transaction not only between chemicals and VSF, but even within chemicals is done at arms length basis. The group is very consistent on that.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Abneesh Roy from Nuvama Wealth Management Limited. Please go ahead.
Abneesh Roy
Yeah. This is Abneesh Roy. My first question is on putty. So wanted to understand if there is any big change in terms of pricing and quality here because other paint companies are saying that some players are selling below positive gross margin, so selling at negative gross margin. And they have also reduced the quality of putty so that it makes sense from a overall business perspective. So if you could comment who has done this and if you could comment if this has actually happened?
Pavan K Jain
The putty business is managed in the UltraTech domain and I would request that the same question should be asked in the UltraTech. The Birla While is subsidiary of UltraTech.
Abneesh Roy
But you would be aware of the development?
Pavan K Jain
Yeah. I’m aware, but I think this is not the right forum to answer the question.
Abneesh Roy
Okay. Then I’ll come to paints, which I think clearly very high interest is there. So sir, you will anyway comment in the next three months because exit will come in the next three months. So wanted to understand if some clarity can be given if around INR250 crore revenue in paint has been done in Q2 and around 2% market share because in any way in three months, you’ll have to give the numbers because it will be exit. So if you could give some color on these calculations, plus in Q1 there was a WIP component in paint. Is that still continuing? Is it still very large compared to the number which I mentioned? So some clarity on the revenue and if possible on the EBITDA also?
Rakshit Hargave
Okay. So like Pavan said, we will disclose the numbers fully and fairly at the appropriate time. So I don’t know from where you have calculated INR250 crores for the quarter. So I would not want to comment on that. Like I said, we are in line to deliver high single-digit market share by the time we exit the year. So you can do some calculations on your own to find out. But on the CWIP, see, we capitalized our first three plants in Cheyyar, Ludhiana and Panipat on 30 April. So whatever was manufactured in those plants till now which has been sold in the period July, August, September will still go into CWIP. Also, our Chamarajanagar factory which started in this quarter, whatever it is manufactured, it is still under trial. So obviously, the CWIP is still a part and in reporting, it will be reported separately. So that is a fact. As we keep commercializing plants, whatever we manufacture will start coming in the books.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Percy from IIFL Securities. Please go ahead.
Percy Panthaki
Hi. Just on the industry demand part. So the way I’m looking at it is that all the companies have reported and the five listed companies are a very large part of the overall industry and the aggregate sales growth of the five listed companies excluding Grasim in paints is 1%. Given that pricing is Y-o-Y negligible, it means that the volume plus mix is around flat to 1% or maybe 2% at the most on a Y-o-Y basis. And if your market share exit FY ’25 is high single-digit, it’s obviously lower than that right now. So let’s say a mid single-digit kind of a share would put the industry growth at somewhere in mid single-digits itself. And that’s clearly much below what the industry has been doing for several years and much below what your own expectations would have been when you decided to enter this space. So what are your comments on these?
Pavan K Jain
So, Percy, so you’ve obviously done some number work. So like we said that, yes, the market seems to be having a slowdown. But like we said, as a new player, we are on track with what we had intended to do. So obviously, there is market share gain and replacement from competition happening with us. So that is absolutely. So — but does that change our optimism or look out for the industry where we have entered? No. So I think this industry medium to long-term is going to get healthy growth and there is room enough for all players to grow and even for us to go with our business plan. So I think just a couple of quarters of a bit slowdown and a demand slowdown, I don’t think that changes anything.
Percy Panthaki
Right. Second question is on the rebating. So while we are able to keep track of the price increases that paint companies do and I think there was one in August and one in July and so on. So there have been like 2% kind of price increases that — a circular which goes out to dealers is only part of the equation of the price increase effectively, right? The other equation is the amount of rebates and the amount of discounting, etc, done by the companies and they are invoicing to the dealers, either in the immediate invoice or at the end of the month quarter, etc, etc. So can you — since now you’re an important part of the industry, can you give us some kind of idea on what is the rebating, discounting, incentives, etc? Sort of how much has it changed on a Y-o-Y basis? What I’m trying to arrive at is the effective pricing ex mix and we are able to see as I said the price lifts sent and that part of the equation. But the other part of the equation of the pure pricing is something that I just wanted to get a handle on if you’re able to help in that at an industry level?
Pavan K Jain
Yeah, Percy. So what we can tell you at an industry level what we have seen, while there is some price increase which has happened, which is basically increasing the dealer price list. But at the same time, the back-end discounts, whether it is in the form of monthly credit node, quarterly credit node or discounts to specialties has actually gone up and has actually gone up more than the price increase, which is why you see a net effect on the P&L of these companies, which is negative and that has a relation to the fact that the intensity of competition is going up. So the trade discounts have gone up and have gone up in various ways. There are various ways in which paint companies settle these in the form of dealer incentives or upfront discounts or back-end discounts or credit notes or quarterly or annual promises. So obviously, there is an increase in that. Does that answer your question?
Operator
Yes, sir. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Pratik Kumar from Jefferies Group. Please go ahead.
Pratik Kumar
Yeah, good morning, sir. My first question is on your leverage provision more like broader question. So on a trailing basis, your net debt to EBITDA is at like 4 times. I know INR2,000 crores from warranties are supposed to be pending for second half. But where do you see your leverage on an absolute basis from INR600 crores to INR700 crores last quarter at peak level or on a net debt to EBITDA basis?
H K Agarwal
Pratik, I could not hear your question clearly. So about the leveraging is we have guided earlier also that we will be having net debt to EBITDA of about 3, 3.5. So I think we are on track to that. And the pending capex, etc, which is to be done in H2, we have already been announced the balance — the second and final call of the rights issue, which we will be getting in Q4.
Pratik Kumar
Okay. My other question is on paint suggestion accounting variation. Is the first quarter CWIP revenue by any time booked in 2Q for the for the segments?
Pavan K Jain
We could not hear you clearly. Can you repeat?
Pratik Kumar
Yeah, sorry. I was just saying that is the CWIP revenue of first quarter in paint segment, is it booked in second quarter revenue?
H K Agarwal
Hello, please, Pratik, try to understand what has been already booked as revenue — as part of CWIP will continue to stay as part of CWIP. It cannot be transferred like to the revenue of second quarter. In second quarter also, there will be some part of revenue which is going at CWIP. As we are commissioning three more plants during the current financial year, whatever is produced during trial runs, when that gets sold that will continue to be part of the CWIP and not the main revenue.
Pratik Kumar
Okay. And one other like question in the segment. This 10% free volumes, when is this scheme generally we are expecting to like end or like sort of continue till what period?
Pavan K Jain
So I would want to ask you, why should I give an answer like this, which helps my competition. We will continue it till we swap. And again to clarify, it is totally on and it is available everywhere and it is doing very well.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Amit from Elara Capital. Please go ahead.
Amit
Yes, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. Sir, just on the point that you highlighted that you are in the process of putting up more products at the dealer level. So where we would be at the — in the journey based on whatever plans that we have in terms of the — currently, we have 129 products with 900 SKUs. So where would we — would be 80%, 70%, how should one think about it?
Pavan K Jain
So we — by September end, we talked about 129 products and we had talked about in the first phase of launching about 145 products. Also, we have reached about 900 SKUs. We had talked about 1,200 SKUs. Yeah, if you take some of those multiple sizes of enamels and shapes, then the SKUs go a bit more. But I would say that more or less about 83% to 85% of our portfolio is there. Other elements which need to complement it are entering the market as we speak in November and December.
Amit
Sure. And the service efficiency at the dealer level, I mean, I’m sure you have the systems in place. I understand in the initial part, there would be some hiccups in terms of availability of now. What would be the scenario anyway to check or if you could share in terms of whatever availability of your product?
Pavan K Jain
Yeah. So like you rightly said, we have set up a network of depots. By end of September, we had 114 depot operational. We have also added to that in October. Obviously, the effort is to service dealers, which competes with the market leader. And so obviously, small hiccups as we did not have a sales history of what is there at what depot was there and we’ve had to do some movements here and there. But by and large, we are able to keep the commitment with mainline town dealers and also upcountry dealers in terms of what we had promised and the service level is good, but the service level is also improving. So if you take a look at a service level number, we are much better in October and November than maybe what we were in August and September, and it’s continuously improving. So as a process of continuous improvement, I think the investment that we have done in depots and technology which is absolutely up-to-date is helping us catch-up very fast.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Bhavin Chheda from Enam Holdings. Please go ahead.
Bhavin Chheda
Yeah, good morning, sir. Good to see the ramp-up on the Birla Opus side. Just a few questions on the paint business. If you can share the number of distributors and retail touch points currently in the paint business and also the number of tinting machines which are already installed?
Pavan K Jain
Yeah, Bhavin, so yeah, good to speak to you again. So like we said, we don’t have distributors. So we are in our direct model and we had talked about hitting about 50,000 dealers by the end of the year. So we are on track to be able to hit that number. And significantly a very large number of those dealers have been given tinting machines is how I would put it.
Bhavin Chheda
So you said you’ll be hitting 50,000 by the end-of-the year, right?
Pavan K Jain
Yes.
Bhavin Chheda
And currently already we have a pan-India presence, right? Your presentation mentioned 4,300 towns.
Pavan K Jain
Yeah.
Bhavin Chheda
Okay. Thank you, sir. Yeah.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Naveen from ICICI Securities. Please go ahead.
Naveen
Yeah. Thank you for the opportunity. I wanted to understand on the Birla Pivot business as to how should one look at it given there is an ambitious growth plan there to close $1 billion sort of revenue. So how should one look at losses in this particular segment? Could impact around 5% or like some percentage of the revenues because it’s largely a trading model, such we’d hope if — because it was also mentioned that the business might be incurring losses in the initial phase and will look to turn profitable only after having reached the benchmark of $1 billion sort of revenue? And also in the same for previous quarter revenue were given clocking a quarterly run rate of INR550 crores. So where are they tagged? Some color on that question, please. Thanks.
Pavan K Jain
So Naveen, as regards to your last point of the revenue numbers, I think in my opening remarks, we told that we will share all the details at appropriate time. What we are sharing is that the business is growing well. We are expanding the reach geographically. We are expanding the product categories, etc. This is a low margin trading kind of business. The business is ramping-up as per our expectation or I would say better than expectation that is the current status. As regards to the EBITDA profitability, we have shared the guidance, long-term guidance. I think we are on track. Sandeep, are you there on the call? Can you share anything more?
Sandeep Komaravelly
Yes. Yes, Pavan. Hi. Naveen, thanks for the question. In terms of our profitability, what we’ve shared earlier is that our aspiration is to hit $1 billion in three years and at that scale, we will be profitable. We are very well on track to achieve that. Right now, our focus is on scaling up our customer base, building our platform that will support the entire end to end commerce transaction and that’s what we are focused on.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Raashi Chopra from Citigroup. Please go ahead.
Raashi Chopra
Thank you. Just one question on Birla Pivot continuing with the last one. From a quarterly run rate perspective, I think last quarter you had given us a INR550 crore number. So are we significantly better than that in this quarter, if you don’t want to quantify it?
Pavan K Jain
So Raashi, I think what we are sharing is that we are ramping-up month-on-month. The business is growing. We are expanding the reach. We are adding the new categories, new customers. We are enhancing the digital platform for the business. So that is what is happening. And of course, it is growing month-on-month and it is like it is — I have told it is as per — I think it is beyond our expectation, we are able to reach in this business.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Jay Doshi from Kotak Securities. Please go ahead.
Jay Doshi
Hi, thanks for the opportunity. My first question is, could you give some color on the quality of dealers you’re engaged with and what would be your penetration in the top 500 dealers of the country?
Rakshit Hargave
So Jay, we have been able to engage with dealers across the India and of all sizes. So dealer classification is a — whether you call them A class, B class, C class. So we have a uniform slit across all dealers. We are also engaging with the top dealers of India, whether you want a bracket of top 500 and top 1,000. Some of the larger dealers might be slightly slower to give us higher counter share, but that was only to be expected. But otherwise, we have a fair representation, our ability to place tinting machines and our ability to start billing across dealers of various classes and sites.
Jay Doshi
Understood. Thanks. And second question is, look, if you are confident of 7%, 8% or high single-digit market share in 4Q and you may be somewhere in low to mid single-digit right now. So is this 200, 300 basis point market share gain per quarter that you may be expecting in December and March is contingent entirely on the B2C retail decorative paints business or you’re expecting a big scale-up in projects business to help you get to that number by end of the year? My understanding is right now you have negligible play in the project space.
Rakshit Hargave
So we are building up our project scheme. We have started getting good projects. But as you would understand that project has a slightly longer gestation period because the discussion and the closure of accounts takes a longer time, but we are on — even on projects, we are well on our plan to be a much more significant player this quarter and next quarters. But the momentum of the retail business itself is very good. So the overall mix is going to play out, but we are quite confident of the number that you have talked about.
Operator
[Operator Closing Remarks]