Finolex Cables Ltd (NSE: FINCABLES) Q4 2025 Earnings Call dated Jun. 02, 2025
Corporate Participants:
Unidentified Speaker
Mahesh Viswanathan — Chief Financial Officer
Analysts:
Unidentified Participant
Vidit Trivedi — Analyst
Sonali Salgaonkar — Analyst
Manoj Gori — Analyst
Kaustav Bubna — Analyst
Saket Kapoor: — Analyst
Presentation:
operator
Good evening everyone and thank you for joining us on Phenolics Cables Limited’s Q4FY25 earnings conference call. Today we have with us Mr. Mahesh Viswanathan, Director, CEO and Chief Financial Officer from Phenolics Cables. Before we begin, I would like to state that some of the statements made in today’s discussion may be forward looking in nature. We will begin the call with the opening remarks from the management after which we will have the forum open for an interactive Q and A session. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen only mode. And should you need assistance during this conference call, you may signal the operator by pressing Star then zero on your touchtone phone.
Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now end the conference. Order Mr. Wais from Svanatan. Thank you. And over to you sir.
Mahesh Viswanathan — Chief Financial Officer
Thank you, Neera. Good afternoon everybody. Thank you for joining on this call. I’m sure by now you must have seen the results, reviewed them, dissected them and you will have questions. I’ll be happy to answer them. By way of introduction, the quarter has been decent after a difficult second and third quarter. I think we have pulled back with a growth of about 14% quarter on quarter and 35% from the immediately preceding quarter. Profit numbers are also good at 208 crores, the profit before tax, the highest that we have seen so far per quarter. Margins were under pressure throughout the year.
There has been a lot of volatility on the commodity side and that together with a few changes in the mix has resulted in a lower contribution, lower margin during the year. Some of it we will be able to catch up. There are timing differences which we will be able to the rest the product mix and so on. We’d like to see how to manage those in the future. Barring this short comments, I do not have much more by way of an introduction. So let’s go straight into the Q and A session. So I’m open to questions now.
Questions and Answers:
operator
Thank you very much. We will now begin with the question and answer session. Anyone wishes to ask the question may press Star and one on the Touchstone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press Star and two participants are requested to use handset while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles participants. You may press Star and one to ask the question. The first question is from Lanavridit Trivedi from Asian Market Securities. Please go Ahead.
Vidit Trivedi
Yeah. Hi. So thank you for the opportunity. I have two questions. First is could you please elaborate on the commercial potential and the margin profile of the E Beam products which were launched during the year. And second is any guidance for the CapEx for this year and the coming year and any Update on the BharatNet opportunity. Thank you.
Mahesh Viswanathan
Okay, so three questions actually on the E Beam project that was commissioned early this year, January and we have launched two sets of products in the market. One is on the construction side building wire which is our most premium wire. It has all the features, halogen free, flame resistant as well as ebim cured. So in terms of life, minimum life of about 25 years and in terms of performance far superior to everything else that we have got so far that was launched towards the end of February. Simultaneously we also launched the solar cables. There was a little bit of delay in getting the BIS approval which we now have.
So these are two offerings that are available at this point in time. We expect the plant to generate revenue when it is in full steam of about 500 to 600 crores per year from these two products. Newer products will add on to that revenue stream. So that’s one question answered. Your second question was on the capex.
Vidit Trivedi
Sorry to interrupt you. Second was on the margin profile of these new launch products.
Vidit Trivedi
Okay. We still have to find the right pricing spot for it. They have just been launched so at the moment the launch prices are quite attractive. But I think over the next three to four months as we see demand picking up that is when our final pricing policy will emerge. So I think it’s a little early to talk about that at this moment. The second part of your question was on capex 24, 25 our capex has been about actual spend, has been 236 crores. We had announced a 500 crore plan two years ago out of which about 160 was spent in 23, 24, 236 was spent in the last fiscal.
The remaining part will be spent in the current year, most of it. So all those projects should get closed by the end of this fiscal. Additionally always there is a reinstatement capex of about 550 crores. So that is something that will be spent. We’re working on a few other plans but not ready as yet to make an announcement. So once those are finalized we’ll come back. The last part of your question was on the Bharatnit project we had participated in as a consortium partner. We had taken part in, we had placed bids in two of those circles, unfortunately we did not.
Our consortium did not get any place position in the industry bids. However, many of the winners across the 16 cycles have used our manufacturer’s authorization to place their bids. So we are in discussion with many of those and we are hopeful of decent level of business in the current and the next days.
Vidit Trivedi
Got it sir. That’s helpful. Thanks a lot. All the best.
operator
Thank you. Participants, you may press star and one to ask a question. Next question is from the line of Saloni Sangakar from Jefferies India. Please go ahead. May I request to unmute your line and proceed with your question please?
Sonali Salgaonkar
Yes, sorry. Sorry, I was in mute. Thank you for the opportunity. This is Sonali. So my first question is regarding the mixed change that we were talking about in your initial remarks. Maybe understand what exactly have we changed in the product mix? As in what and what percentage does each end user segment accounts for? Now.
Mahesh Viswanathan
In construction wise still accounts for the majority of sales. But what has changed in terms of mix is the stock standalone sales through in the form of standard boxes that has come down vis a vis project sales. And as you know, project sales is where the price is discounted to some extent. So the composition of project sales to total has changed over the last few years and this year was more pronounced. That’s the major reason if I recollect.
Sonali Salgaonkar
We were about 65 to 70% B2C or retail and the remainder was B2B. Now in that vein, where are we in B2B or projects now?
Mahesh Viswanathan
No, like we do not sell directly to any project. We sell it through our distribution channel only. So in that sense all sales are routed through the channel. However, we know that many of those sales are going to projects and therefore there is a discounting on the prices.
Sonali Salgaonkar
So yes, very clear. So what is the mix right now of projects? What to say three years back.
Mahesh Viswanathan
That would have changed maybe between about 8 to 10%.
Sonali Salgaonkar
So incremental delta is 8 to 10% towards project. So my second question is regarding the Bharat, you know commentary that you made that many of the winners, I don’t quite understand that. Are you saying that many of the winners are going to use optic fiber cables for that?
Mahesh Viswanathan
See this time around quite a few of the bidders are not actually producing optic fiber cable. So they will have to source their cables through from somebody. And therefore they were allowed to use manufacturers authorization to place their bids. And this is not new. It’s happened in the past as well. But the numbers of non ofc manufacturers have been more this time around.
Sonali Salgaonkar
Understood sir. And by when do you expect the volumes of pick up for this development?
Mahesh Viswanathan
I think the order was recently been released while the bid mechanics concluded sometime last November. The actual orders have been have gone out to the eventual winners sometime in March or April. So the procurement process is on. They have three years to build and 10 years afterwards to service. So there is. It is the procurement process has just started for mostly.
Sonali Salgaonkar
Understood. So my third question would be regarding pricing actions. Could you quantify what are the price increases that you took in Q4 and from April to now has there been any pricing changes in cables and wires?
Mahesh Viswanathan
Well we had one day before yesterday in the last fiscal there were 12 times when prices were revised only on wires. So it’s almost once a month. There have been a few cases where about six cases where the prices revised downwards and another six times when the prices went up. That is purely a reaction to the volatility that was there during the year on commodity prices. So net impact I think cost would have gone up about 12 and a half to 13% in the fiscal.
Sonali Salgaonkar
FY25 right?
Mahesh Viswanathan
In the fiscal, yes.
Sonali Salgaonkar
And the between April and May you mentioned that about just about a few days back you took a price pricing decision.
Mahesh Viswanathan
Yesterday. Price changed by 3 percentage.
Sonali Salgaonkar
Prices are changed so upwards. Yeah, understood. And my last question is regarding ehg. A lot has been talked about the solid opportunity in ehv. Any thoughts or plans to increase our exposure there?
Mahesh Viswanathan
Well EHV the growth prospects are still very good. There is concentration of requirements around the 160 plus. 160kV plus range. But as you know these are projects which are very long in every part of that business whether it is the tendering or the decisions on the tenders or subsequently on award. And currently I think the market size is Approximately anywhere between 400 to $500 million. But likely improvement towards a billion and a half, $2 billion is not far fetched. So I think at this moment we are reasonably placed in terms of ability to get orders.
But then the business being a long lead time business, it takes more than 18 months, 20 months to complete a particular project and then more time to collect the money around the project. So that’s the nature of this particular project business.
Sonali Salgaonkar
Currently as of S25 how much of our revenue is coming from? Uh.
Mahesh Viswanathan
I got it in the jv it’s not in our books.
Sonali Salgaonkar
Got it. So thank you so much for your replies and all the best.
Mahesh Viswanathan
Thank you.
operator
Thank you Participants, you may press star and one to ask the question. Next question is from Land of Manoj Khori from Ecura securities. Please go ahead.
Manoj Gori
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity. Sir, I have one question. If I look at the FY25 performance and when I look at the other companies reporting their numbers and their commentaries, probably somewhere we feel like we have underperformed in the wire space, especially in the B2C site. And you just highlighted like some of the growth in FY25 has been driven from the project business. So what are the areas and what were the reasons which led to this underperformance versus peers? Probably how should we look at things in the coming time? Is this, are these issues behind us or probably will take some time for this underperformance to arrest and probably then grow in line or better than this industry.
Mahesh Viswanathan
Okay. My first statement was after a difficult second and third quarter. So second and third quarter was difficult for us. First quarter was across the board. I think everyone faced a problem in terms of the, in terms of the lack of enthusiasm from the market after the initial reports around the election. But subsequently as others have gotten off the mark quicker than us. That is true. But I think we’ve done a fairly good fourth quarter in terms of growth in the fourth quarter. Our numbers are not very different from our peers. Some of them have larger volumes, yes, but the growth numbers are not very different.
So I think we have, we have, we had lagged in the second and third quarters but have caught up in the fourth quarter. And I think that is something that is behind us right now.
Manoj Gori
Right, sir. And secondly, if you look at from the demand perspective, what we are seeing is probably from last two, two and a half years we are seeing wires relatively growing slower than cables Wire dominant company. How do you see demand environment panning out from let’s say in FY26 or FY27 point of view? If you can break it into two parts, FY26 and 27 both individually and what would be the trigger? Because obviously real estate. We have been talking a lot that there should be some pickup but we are not seeing any major signs of, of revival of demand for wires as a category.
How should we see this?
Mahesh Viswanathan
I think there is, if you look at the registration and other data that is there, there is definitely inventory reduction from the on the unit side. Simultaneously new projects are getting announced as, as the near completion is when the demand for wires would pick up. As you said, we were expecting the pickup to happen over at least the second half of last year, which has not. But I think with the kind of construction activity that is going on it wouldn’t be far fetched to say that the current fiscal from the second half you should see in demand.
Hopefully the level of volatility that was there last year doesn’t continue through this year. If there is stability then I think things would pick up. This is what I believe at this point in time. I think you should see growth next year year for sure and probably from the second half of this year.
Manoj Gori
Sure, sir. So lastly if I may touch upon on the margins in Q3 and Q4, we have relatively better on margin delivery. Should we assume that probably those margin pressures which we were witnessing, probably the worst is behind us from year onwards either this should be the base case, margin profile and profit. Probably we might see gradual improvement.
Mahesh Viswanathan
I would say that there should be gradual improvement. I think if you look at our numbers over the last five, six years, this 24, 25 was probably the first year when the margin has taken a dip and then come back to. Not yet come back to where it was. But going towards that I do believe that most of the margin pressure related issues are behind us. We have addressed them as best as we can and I think that from now one should see stable to renewable growth over the next few years. Sure sir.
Manoj Gori
Thank you and wish you all the best.
Mahesh Viswanathan
Thank you.
operator
Thank you very much. Next question is from land of Costa Bhubna from BMSPL Capital. Please go ahead.
Kaustav Bubna
Yeah, hi, thank you for taking my question. Just wanted an update on the optic fiber cable capacities that were supposed to come up or what’s the update over there?
Mahesh Viswanathan
Okay. So on the optic fiber business there were a few measures that we were taking. The first one was to set up a preform facility. So the facility is ready. It’s been mechanically installed and completed. We’re waiting for the production trials to start. That is slated for sometime this month. When that is over, then that should take about two to three months before the trials are over and the plant stabilizes. So from then onwards then I think we have the product in the market as well as for our own convention. So that would be the preform.
The second step was on the fiber capacity Increase fiber capacity. The machine is expected sometime towards the second half of this year. I think somewhere around December time frame and would take another two to three months to install and commission. So when that is done, fiber capacity will go up from the current 4 million kilometers to 6 million kilometers. The last stage was for adding another line to the carrying capacity. The building is ready, but once the fiber line is commissioned, that’s when the Those equipment should come in and those are fairly simple to install.
Should not take too much of time. Within six months that can be made ready.
Manoj Gori
And could you speak a little bit about what’s happening with pricing on the fiber side?
Mahesh Viswanathan
And okay, last. The last fiscal fiber prices went through one of the lowest numbers partly in view of the excess capacity as well as excess stocks available in China. While India had brought in additional duty, the prices kept falling and they have even heard of two and a half dollars per kilometer kind of numbers at which price it’s really unrealistic to produce. But having said that, over the last two to three months we have seen a change in the way the fiber market has been developing globally. The consumption and demand related activities in the US have strengthened very quickly and there is a lot of demand in North America.
There is also additional demand coming in from Europe. So we are seeing prices turning up now. So it’s closer to 3.$5 right now as opposed to 2 and a half which is in for most of the year last year.
Kaustav Bubna
Understood? Understood. Thank you so much. Thank you.
operator
Thank you. Participants. You may press Star and one to answer question. Next question is from the line of Saket Kapoor from Kapoor and company. Please go ahead.
Saket Kapoor:
Yeah, and thank you for the opportunity to take the discussion forward on the OFC of and the OFC prices. So you were alluding to the fact that the prices for OFC has moved up from an average of 2.5 to 3.5. This is what just that is for the fiber and that is the fiber. Okay, then what are the fiber cable prices?
Mahesh Viswanathan
OFC’s prices that would depend on the design of the cable. Right. So you might have two fibers, four fibers, 288 fibers. So the design makes the price change. Okay. And the single price for all EKLs.
Saket Kapoor:
Sorry sir, come again?
Mahesh Viswanathan
I’m saying there is no standard single price for all the cables because the price of the cable depend depend on the design of the cable.
Saket Kapoor:
If we take the utilization levels for the optic fiber cable for our company, also for. For the country domestically, how have the utilization levels been for the last fiscal and what kind of. We have seen in the utilization levels for the current two months of this fiscal.
Mahesh Viswanathan
Last year I think was fairly low across the board because government orders had been delayed. And like I mentioned earlier, while the tendering process project, the development of those 16 circles is required to be done in three years and while there is fiber capacity will have to catch up because beach capacity will not be sufficient. So I think the will improve in the Balance of the next.
Saket Kapoor:
By one of the leading optifiable tables in the country. They mentioned about 100% by the month of July on the basis of what the tendering process have been. So are we also expecting those high levels of optic fiber cable utilization by the first or the second quarter? On what outlook.
Mahesh Viswanathan
Says that it’d be more later than earlier? I think July is probably from where I stand, it’s probably a little optimistic, but later for sure.
Saket Kapoor:
Okay, but for the later half we can expect higher utilization level for that’s for sure. Yes, these are on premise of both the global demand from the data centers and also the domestic demand coming up from the BharatNet engine. These are the two demand drivers, the key demand drivers.
Mahesh Viswanathan
Correct. So the BharatNet project which has been tendered out recently, that only completes C16 circles. So this is phase three. There are other states which have which are doing it on their own. So for example Gulag, Maharashtra, I think Karnataka, not Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Andhra. They’re all doing it on their own. And so that is still expected to come shortly. Those DPRs are I understand currently being made. Gujarat had come, but the others not yet. So that demand is going to drive the requirement of cables over the next two to three years. Besides that of course there will be consumption in data centers.
There is also consumption happening at the last mile connectivity. So as the 5G rollout happens or as the acceptance happens, there will be more fiber to home applications. So that will also consume different kind of cables.
Saket Kapoor:
So in just a summary we can conclude that the worst for the optic fiber cable demand and utilization levels are behind and going ahead what seems to be coming two, three years. They are going to run at full steam depending upon how and when the projects get opened up and for the process to continue.
Mahesh Viswanathan
Yeah, I think it is a positive order for sure.
Saket Kapoor:
Okay, just a small question on the total capacity of optic fiber cable in the country. Taking into account the type of capacity addition that has happened over the last few years. What is the total capacity and where are we in terms of our market shares?
Mahesh Viswanathan
For domestically our shares have been around 11% on in this market total capacity. I would be guessing if I make a number. I think I’ll have to look up at those numbers before I say something. I can come back to you later.
Saket Kapoor:
So now on the electrical cable part of the story, sir, how are we seeing the demand drivers for the ESV cable and also the new setup being for the renewable segment that leading to the new distribution line being set up? How are we Seeing the demand drivers from there and what portion of our revenue is derived from the EHV segment.
Mahesh Viswanathan
So like I mentioned earlier, the EHV part of the business is being done by a joint venture. So those numbers are not included in our standalone results. Only the profit or loss is accounted in our consolidated results. But EHV as a segment seems to be growing. I earlier mentioned, at current level of the market is about $500 million US and we see that it can grow up to 2 billion in the next four to five years. So that’s the potential that is there. Players. There are multiple players in India also now and some of them are now entering the field with technology that we brought in 10 years ago, or what Universal brought in 15 years ago.
So there is definitely place for multiple players at this point in time. The difference between the traditional wire business as well as this is that the gestation period in this business is fairly long. Each project takes anywhere between 12 to 24 months to complete. So your sales recognition is not at one point in time, it spreads over 24 months. So that’s the challenge and that’s the business. So from an existing level of $500 million to a potential of 2 billion is the market size.
Saket Kapoor:
I interrupted you.
Mahesh Viswanathan
You wanted to conclude that is that is on the EHV part. You had another question which is on the renewables. So we have, like I mentioned earlier, we have introduced wires and cables which are cured by eBeam. The application primarily was to address the solar power industry. These are cables with an extremely long life. So if you expect for example a panel to last 25, 30 years, you would also expect the cables to last the same number of years. Otherwise you’ll have to keep changing the cables every so often. Once they’re cured by E beam that results in a very long life for these cables.
We have launched them in February and we have recently got our certifications to BIS also. And we expect this industry to grow. I think currently the volume of these cables that are sold are anywhere between 20 to 25,000 kilometers per month. And that can only increase given the fact that that our government’s target to improve the power generation from solar and wind generation is climbing and the targets for the future years are even higher than what they are today. So we do see large potential in this space. Additionally, the EBIF facility, we have also launched a premium wire product.
So this will go into building, into construction where we expect the life of the wire to be a minimum of 25 years. So that would also add to overall volumes. Plus it Would add to the premiumization of the product.
Saket Kapoor:
Right. And just in this space, are these the E beam cross beam solar PV cables or what are the products portfolio?
Mahesh Viswanathan
These are cross link.
Saket Kapoor:
Come again sir?
Mahesh Viswanathan
These are XLP cured by.
Saket Kapoor:
Okay, so these are different electron beam and the one you mentioned are two different types.
Mahesh Viswanathan
The curing is done by an electron beam. So the cable is finished with xlp, but it is after it is finished it is cleared through an even process.
Saket Kapoor:
Okay, so we have the entire setup.
Mahesh Viswanathan
We have the Setup. We’ve got two accelerators, one at 1Mev and other one at 1.5Mev. So we can cure multiple sizes of products through this, through the 3D machine.
Saket Kapoor:
Okay, and are we also in the submersible cables and the coccyxual cables? Electrical?
Mahesh Viswanathan
We are in submersible cables. We are in what we call three core flats. Those are basically meant for submersible applications. So water and so on. And you talked about coaxial? Yes, we have lines both in GOA as well as in our OHSA factory. We are long term suppliers to Tata Plate, to Sun tv, to Airtel, to most of the GTH operators.
Saket Kapoor:
Right sir.
Saket Kapoor:
Thank you sir. So we can conclude that for at least for the segmented reporting for OFC part also we are going to see improved margins going ahead with the utilization levels improving. And also the price is also for OS improving from by $1 as you mentioned. So in all there are both the price as well as the demand pull that we are going to witness going ahead.
Mahesh Viswanathan
Yeah, I should see those.
Saket Kapoor:
Okay, and so for the EHV cable, what is our. I’m just concluded for the EHV cable, what is our market share and who is the dominant player? You did mention the name.
Mahesh Viswanathan
Okay, so like I said again the EHP part of the business we do through a jv we do not do it directly in this entity. They are the dominant player in India so far has been universal cables. Currently Universal is there, we are there, Kei is there, polycad is there, Howells is there. But so far only universal and us we have the vertical process, the other use horizontal process. All of them are acquiring equipment to put in vertical processes. It takes time. It takes about two years before it can get implemented. But design are moving.
Saket Kapoor:
And the harness cable segment, are we also a player there? We participate.
Mahesh Viswanathan
We supply wires to the harness manufacturers. Yes, we supply our wire. Yeah, sorry.
Saket Kapoor:
What portion of our sales are do we derive from this segment? What kind of the market share we have or what is the size stem the target market?
Mahesh Viswanathan
The size Currently our size in this market is about 400, 500 crores. Most of the harness manufacturers are our customers. The overall market size would be much larger. But the dominant player here is Madhasan.
Saket Kapoor:
Thank you sir for all the elaborate answer and for allowing me to put forward to them. And all the best to the team. Sir, I joined the team.
Mahesh Viswanathan
Thank you.
Saket Kapoor:
Thank you sir.
operator
Thank you. Participants, you may press RN1 to ask a question. Next question is from. From Pinpoint X Capital. Please go ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Yes sir. So my question is related to optical fiber. Like you mentioned that demand is picking up from it domestically also and internationally. And prices are more over bottome. So like sir, what could be the capacity utilization for our company in preform and fiber capacity going forward? Like if you can give any ballpark percentage going forward it will depend on.
Mahesh Viswanathan
How many projects get announced. So the comment that I made earlier was with reference to what is happening on the Bharatnet project. And therefore I do see that going forward the requirement of cables would firm up. Which means that downstream requirements also would follow. Similarly you want the utilization to be as high as you can be. We had when the project was being announced we said if we operate at 70% then the payback is in about four and a half years or so. So right now the prefarm factory is. While it is mechanically completed, production is yet to start.
The trials are going to start this month. So it will be another three months before the product is available. And initial usage will be lower. Because as people get used to the production formalities, the processes and only then there will be a ramp up. So first year is not going to be very high. But from the second year onwards I expect at least a ramp up to initially 60, 70%.
Unidentified Participant
Got it sir. And sir, given that our capacity utilization will increase in future so can we see some margin improvement over there? And if yes, then that is the.
Mahesh Viswanathan
Reason why we went into this business. Because it is in a way backward integration. It reduces your dependency on someone else. It reduces imports. So today when you buy the product, you want to buy it for a certain period of time, say your inventory levels are much higher. Whereas you make it on your own. Then your inventory levels can be managed with lower numbers as well. So those are all savings that you will get. So we definitely expect this project to result in accretion to the margins.
Unidentified Participant
Got it sir. And sir, if I’m correct then our capacity would be finalized by this FY itself.
Mahesh Viswanathan
When you say finalized, what do you mean?
Unidentified Participant
Either commercialize like it will be used for selling the products.
Mahesh Viswanathan
So our intent when we set up this factory was the output of this factory would be used to. To make fibers on our own. Currently we are importing the entire set of preforms from overseas. So once this factory goes live then that import would stop. And our initial requirement, I mean our requirement would be met by internal production. That is how you get the margin accretion. And if there is excess capacity available, of course we could sell the preforms out in the market as well.
Unidentified Participant
And sir, you mentioned that 60, 70% fiber utilization would be by next. Next year.
Mahesh Viswanathan
No pre for myself.
Unidentified Participant
Okay. Okay. And sir, are we looking for export side also?
Mahesh Viswanathan
So far we have. We have been looking that. We have contracts with our suppliers who are also in that business overseas. So there are certain territories where we have mutually agreed that we will not compete in and therefore we have not been active there. But if I am making the product myself then those agreements are no longer relevant and we could.
Unidentified Participant
Okay sir. Got it sir. Thank you so much sir. And I’ll get back in the queue.
Mahesh Viswanathan
Thank you.
operator
Thank you very much. As there are no further questions I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr. Vishwanathan for closing comments.
Mahesh Viswanathan
Okay, so thanks everyone for participating in the in the conference. I hope I’ve been able to respond to your queries adequately. Thank you.
operator
Thank you very much. On behalf of Phenolis Cables Ltd. That concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you. It.