eMudhra Limited (NSE: EMUDHRA) Q3 2025 Earnings Call dated Jan. 29, 2025
Corporate Participants:
Venkatraman Srinivasan — Executive Chairman
Ritesh Raj Pariyani — Senior Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Analysts:
Rishi Maheshwari — Analyst
Surbhi — Analyst
Siddharth Mishra — Analyst
Rohan Vora — Analyst
Srinath .V — Analyst
Prem Lunia — Analyst
Presentation:
Operator
Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to the Q3 and Nine Months FY ’25 Earnings Conference Call of eMudhra Limited. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in the listen-only mode and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star then zero on your touchstone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr Venkatraman, Executive Chairman, Limited. Thank you, and over to you, sir.
Venkatraman Srinivasan — Executive Chairman
Thank you. Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining us today. It is my pleasure to share performance for the 3rd-quarter of FY 2025 and provide insights into the progress we have made during this quarter. For Q3 FY ’25, total income was INR140.89 crore, reflecting a year-to-year growth of 41.6%. Our EBITDA was INR31.94 crore with an EBITDA margin of 22.7% and our PAT for the quarter was INR22.4 crores, resulting in a net margin of 15.9%. This quarter’s growth was driven by strong performance in our overseas markets, particularly in the Americas, Middle-East and Africa and Asia-Pacific regions, supported by significant deal crossures. Our global engagements reflect the growing demand for identity-backed digital signatures and the adoption of automation in public key infrastructure for enhancing user and device security. In India, we achieved strong traction for the identity and access management solutions, highlighted by key deal wins.
Additionally, our trust services, including continued to perform well with volumes increasing on the back of new deals in capital markets and banking. Our investments in research and development remain at the core of our strategy. This quarter, we advanced our efforts in Post-Quantum cryptography and mobile PK. The timeline recommended by NIST for transitioning to Post-Quantum algorithms has encouraged large organizations, especially in regulated sectors to prepare for this shift. Furthermore, recent regulatory developments in the European Union now mandate the use of mobile PK or issuing digital IDs and signatures, creating additional opportunities for our solutions. The rapid advancements in generative AI have opened the new avenues for us to innovate. We are integrating Gen AI into our product suit to address critical use cases such as deep fakes detection during identity verification, document summarization, risk assessment and security analytics.
These capabilities also extend to automating internal processes, ensuring efficiency and scalability in operations. Now I would like to walk you through some of the key project wins for the quarter, which includes managed PK for an intergovernmental organization in the European Union, support for delivering for secure cloud workloads in North-America for a large ERP platform, certricate life-cycle management for a large bank in the Middle-East, e-signature enabled paperless transformation for a large bank in Qatar and paperless transformation for telecom company in Asia-Pacific, integration of stamping for solar power purchase agreements with the state power distribution company in India. We are also proud to have been recognized by Frost; as the 2024 competitive Strategy leader in the global PK as a service industry.
This recognition reaffirms our commitment to innovation and excellence in delivering secure digital solutions. Looking ahead, we remain optimistic about the opportunities in global markets and we continue investing in R&D as public key infrastructure remains a critical element in the convergence of user and device identity and we are well-positioned to drive growth in this evolving landscape. Thank you. And now I invite Mr to provide our CFO to provide a detailed overview of the financial performance for the quarter.
Ritesh Raj Pariyani — Senior Vice President and Chief Financial Officer
Thank you, Chairman. Good afternoon, everyone. I’m pleased to share the highlights of our quarter three and nine months financial year 2025 financial performance. Our total income for quarter three financial year 2025 was INR1,409 million, marking a 41.6% year-over-year growth. Gross profit for the quarter grew at 11% year-over-year to INR714 million with a margin of 50.7%. EBITDA for the quarter was INR319 million, registering a 19.4% year-on-year growth with a margin of 22.7%. Grew at 11.9% year-over-year to INR224 million with a margin of 15.9%. Now turning to Nine-Month financial year 2025 performance. Total income for the nine-month financial year 2025 reached INR3,785 million, representing year-over-year growth of 36.7%. The Enterprise Solutions segment generated a revenue of INR2,928 million, while the trust service revenue was INR797 million. EBITDA for Nine-Month financial year 2025 reached INR952 million, representing a year-over-year growth of 18.8% with a margin of 25.2% and grew at 14% year-over-year to INR629 million with a margin of 16.6%. Thank you. And we may now open the floor for questions-and-answer session.
Questions and Answers:
Operator
Thank you very much, sir. We will now begin with the question-and-answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask questions may press star and one on their touchstone phone. If you wish to withdraw yourself from the question queue, you may press. Participants are requested to use only answers while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. You may please press and one to ask questions the first question is from the line of Rishi Maheshwari from AKSA Capital. Please go-ahead.
Rishi Maheshwari
Hi, thanks for taking my question. I’d just like some clarification on — we’ve seen some exciting revenue growth and especially from enterprise services as well. How has this not commensurate on the gross margins? So how do we reconcile the two? Last quarter you had explained that there have been some offs in terms of the trust services. I believe that’s not necessarily the case this quarter, if I had to compare quarter-on-quarter. So why is that the gross margins have not — the gross profit has not increased commensurate to the top-line? And when do you think both will converge? Thanks.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
No, that point continues in this quarter also because that is due to the change in the CCA guidelines. So earlier, we were selling at a net price to a partner. So in the top-line, net price only will come. Nowadays, we are by the guideline, we are forced to sell at the retail price and then pay commission to the partner. So that way — and the commission varies from 40% to 50%. So to that extent of trust services, if let us say trust services sale is INR25 crore, almost anywhere between INR10 crore to INR12.5 crore will increase the top-line and that will also reduce the gross margin as a percentage. Gross margin as an amount will not change, but gross margin as a percentage will change. So that is a situation and that situation will continue in the next few quarters also because the CCA guideline may remain the same until if it is changed at a future point of time. So that is what we explained in the last quarter that situation continues also.
Rishi Maheshwari
However, if you look at last quarter growth
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Of one more thing is also there that we have to repurchase because the stock model, which was earlier there, we were selling the stock to the — these distributors and dealers and everyone. So a lot of stock was there in the market. In the new model stock cannot be sold, every digital signature has to be sold one-by-one. And whatever stock was available in the market on July 15, that has to be repurchased. So what we are doing to agreed with the partners is to the extent they sell-in a particular quarter, we will repurchase their old stock. So that also almost comes to some around INR2.5 crores to INR3 crores per quarter. So these are the two contributing factors, which reduce the gross margin as a percentage, not the gross margin as amount, but as a percentage, it is like that.
Rishi Maheshwari
So even as an amount at the EBITDA level, if you look at, we’ve actually declined from INR33 crores — we’ve actually — from about INR32 crores last quarter, we’ve done INR30 crores this quarter. So it clearly shows that there has been some deacceleration despite that.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Definitely. No, no. This quarter, if you see, last quarter we see season for the digital signature. So at that time only maximum sale of digital signature take place. In the digital signature, once the data center and processes are put in-place on the incremental sale of digital signature, almost 99% 98% gross margin is there and except the commission. So even if you commission goes 50% gross margin so almost what happened, INR5 crore, if you see the India revenue, there is a INR5 crore reduction in the digital signature sale, which is substituted by the — almost substituted by INR3.5 crore of the enterprise sale. So that resulted in a reduction in — also resulted in a reduction in gross margin and reduction in the EBITDA margin to that extent. So that it will contribute to about INR crore INR2.5 crores.
Rishi Maheshwari
How should we look at growth going ahead, sir, in — especially in ERP services?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Yeah, no, we are not in ERP business, enterprise — sorry, enterprise solution businesses, how should we look at growth? It will be consistent. Even 4th-quarter generally will be better than 3rd-quarter. So that is our general thing. Then the next year also. So if you see year beginning, we gave a guidance of 25% to 30% growth. And last year we had achieved INR375 crores. So this year, we thought maybe INR475 crores to INR500 crores we can achieve, but definitely we may cross INR500 crore, we may reach somewhere between INR500 crores INR520 crore also. Then similarly, on the net profit side, because earlier, we were reaching 20% PAT, but then we gave a guidance of 18%, which on a INR500 crores should have been INR90 crore. So now already we have reached a PAT of 63. So with additional PAT next quarter, we may reach somewhere around 90, but this 63 or what, 87, 88 or 90 what-if I am saying. This is after two, three factors. One factor is the repurchase of stock.
That repurchase of stock itself will go to almost INR9 crore in the current year. That is one factor. Then the next factories we are providing the stock option expense. Actually really it is not an expense, but only where the India is accounting standard, it becomes excellent. Where what we are doing is already the shares are in the trust — from the trust we are alloting to the employee, but we have to debit the profit and loss account and credit the reserve directly. So that impact again come to INR78 crore there. And the other thing, we did an acquisition — in that acquisition, we made certain payment as a deferred payment after one year and two year. So there was no interest component. But as per India, some portion need to be traded as an interest component.
So these are all non really not — it’s not affecting the business, but from a profit-loss account perspective, one-time this affects. And then the one-time acquisition cost. Generally any capital-related cost, it should go to the capitalization, but that also some INR1.5 crore INR1.8 crore, it has to come to the revenue as per the NDA. So all these put together, it is almost of INR16 crores to INR17 crore. But though we told INR90 crore after this INR17 crore, we may achieve INR8790 crores. So that way, in my opinion, there is no decline or anything like that. It is it is really doing well only and if these effects go maybe in nine months, 10 months, then again we can — that level of profit will again come.
Rishi Maheshwari
And should we therefore assume that FY ’26 will continue to be about close to 30% revenue growth year from over FY ’25,
Venkatraman Srinivasan
At least 25%, 25% to 30% on which maybe definitely — because this year itself, if you see the 41% growth, on that 25% is organic growth. So next year, if we say 25% to 30%, maybe 15%, conservatively, 15% to 20% can be organic growth, balance 10% can be acquisitive growth.
Rishi Maheshwari
And what should we assume now at the reorg margin at the current — in the current status in the way you report, what should we look at as expected margin, EBITDA margin for next year.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
So expected EBITDA margin, we can see around same, 24% 25% in the PAT or based on the current — if you take all this adjustment, adjusted EBITDA definitely can be 25%. If non-adjusted EBITDA can be 23% and then the PAT of 15.5% to 16%.
Rishi Maheshwari
15.5% to 16%.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Yes, yes.
Rishi Maheshwari
Which will be lower than the 18% that you guided this year.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
No, no, 18% originally guided without these factors. No, without the top-line increase and all that, right after that it is coming. So that way, if you see on a INR590 crore maybe on a INR600 crores to INR650, it could be on that it may be definitely more than that, not 15%, maybe 17% 18%. So more than INR100 crore can be there definitely.
Rishi Maheshwari
Got it. Got it. Sir, just last question on the advent of the AI, that has happened — that has been — that has happened either from the Chinese AI or generally, how is that helping you in terms of the business? Is there any correlation to the growth of AI versus the security services and digital trust growth.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Still we have not introduced those AI into the business side. So that a lot of R&D, not only our technical team has started next year, we may have to do some R&D to introduce those into the AI side. But — but on the operational side, we have introduced. So that’s why in-spite of increase in the revenues, the corresponding — except the manpower has not increased so much. We are able to maintain the manpower at the same level or maybe a little lower level. Today, we are increasing the manpower only for the salespeople abroad. But otherwise in the technology team, then the customer service team, operations team, everybody operate at the same level or even at a reduced level, the usage of a little bit of AI. But at the business side, how it will — we are almost thinking out of three things that may be able to answer better in some other call could not be here today. So — but we are thinking about that. How do you see in the business side?
Rishi Maheshwari
Got it, got it. Thank you so much. Thanks for the candid answers.
Operator
Thank you.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Yeah. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Thank you.
Operator
Participants, you may press star in one to ask questions. The next question is from the line of Surbhi from BWC. Please go-ahead.
Surbhi
Hi, thank you for the opportunity. Sir, my question is regarding postponting. Could you just spend some time helping us understand how is the product integration happening and the entire transition from legacy encryption algors to PQC, what kind of opportunity do we see there? And I think we were running some POCs there. So are we seeing any materialization of that happening?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
No, still nobody has converted to Post-Quantum, but large organizations have started asking for POC, particularly some two, three US organizations have asked some Indian organizations have asked for the POC. Those things we have started demonstrating and some other — another point which has come is how the dual current methodology and the PQC put together can be used. So that is another thing we are doing so that they need not replace everything, the current RSA algorithm and algorithm will also be there along with that, the PTC algorithm will also be used. So it will be — it is combined and bundled into our PMCA product already. So it will not be separately sold, but in the MCA product, that feature is also helping in bidding for the RFP and bidding for the large customers and all that because the large customer don’t want this as a separate piece. They want it as an integrated piece so that whatever way it can be done, it will be possible to do and that is the kind of model even our control authority is advocating. So
Surbhi
Fair enough, which will be the sector which is expected to move first here?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
What is it?
Surbhi
So which sectors are expecting — you are expecting to get impacted first and these are the first ones to move to P2C
Ritesh Raj Pariyani
Which are the sector which is going to?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
PQC. P2C mainly large banks and defense
Surbhi
Okay.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Because these kind of thing first they will trade the defense generally and then the large companies.
Surbhi
Okay. And sir, second question on the operating cost. Sir, is this cost entirely linked to the service entities or there is any hardware component as well in it? And if so, can you please quantify that?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Hardware is very less. It is not significant. One is on the trust services, this 40% to 30% gross margin is there. Then on the service component, whatever service we are providing on that service whatever that manpower cost is also going into the operating cost. Hardware, not much because this year even token sales, we are reducing because the margin is very less. Other hardware sales also we are reducing. So that way on the cost of revenue, these are the main costs.
Surbhi
Okay, okay. And sir, lastly, if you could call-out what was the cash balance at the end of this quarter?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Cash balance last quarter-end was INR167 crore this quarter and also around INR166 crore around INR67 crore is there?
Surbhi
Okay. And any new products in the pipeline?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
New separately fully new product is not in the pipeline, but the — in the existing product, additional feature, feature enhancement and some new functionality enhancement, all those are happening. So that is how it is going. Completely new product is still not in the pipeline. Maybe next year something we may have to plan. Once these PQ, C-Mobile, PKI, FHE, everything stabilizes, then we’ll plan.
Surbhi
Okay. Very much, sir. Thank you so much.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. The next question is from the line of Siddharth Mishra from Creaegis. Please go-ahead.
Siddharth Mishra
Hi, sir. Thank you so much for taking my question. So first question is, if you can separate out the one-off expenses of INR22 million this quarter, what were the components? How much was the notional interest on acquisition liability, how much was provisioning and if there is any other expense in?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Yeah, this one-off expenses, three, four expenses are there, exactly that $22 million I’m not able to calculate, but I will explain one-by-one. Then later on our CFO can send you the full list of what are the one-off expenses. One is the stock option. So generally this quarter, I think INR2.2 crore or something was the stock option expenditure. Actually, no expenditure take place. It is only debiting profit and loss account and crediting the reserve because the shares are already purchased by the long back purchased by stock option trust and there is no new purchase in that. So it is not going anywhere. So this is one thing. Then the second thing is this acquisition of 295 international what we made. There were two components in that. One was the acquisition finder fee. So that finder fee, again, as were in — generally earlier days, this finder fee was also added to the acquisition cost and accordingly traded. But no, our auditors told that finder fee has to be debted to the profit and alone, but that didn’t come in this quarter. That was in the last quarter around I think INR1.5 crore or something. Then one more component in that was the — when we did the acquisition, we made a payment of around 85%, 86% and the 14% we deferred for two years just to ensure that the commitment is there and they are with us and all these things. So that what happened was the — as per the that whatever we deferred, that also had to be segregated at a notional interest-rate into interest component and principal component and that goes to interest. So that may be some 25 lakh 30 lakh.
Ritesh Raj Pariyani
INR30 lakhs.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
INR30 lakhs for that. Then one more thing, what is affecting the P&L account is the repurchase of stock. So that repurchase of stock again was I think this quarter INR2.2 crore or INR2.5 crores, something like that. So totally, all the some INR56 crore are affecting the current year profit last quarter.
Siddharth Mishra
Understood, sir. Thank you so much. How long do you think the repurchase of stocks will continue? Any indication
Venkatraman Srinivasan
It may go up to September of next year because otherwise, if we commit to repurchase everything together, then suddenly we have to sell-out all the money and the partner also will not be focused on selling our stock. Because today, too many competitors from 13, 14 people have come. So that’s where we are saying we will not fully repurchase you. To the extent every quarter what you sell that much only we repurchase. So that is where it may go up to next September. That is my view. But gradually the amount could be around, say, INR3 crore INR3 crore, INR3 crore like that or sometime it can come to INR2.5 crore also.
Siddharth Mishra
Got it. Very helpful. And then sir, if it is possible for us to break-down the services revenue like we did last quarter as well and further into Icon and 295, rough numbers would also be.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
The service revenue this quarter was around INR43 crore or roughly around that. On the INR43 crore, I think roughly this — our own service revenue is INR56 crore and others ICON and INR295 crore maybe around INR37, INR38 crores.
Siddharth Mishra
Understood. And equally divided into icon and
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Yeah, maybe INR12 crore here and there, I don’t remember, but
Siddharth Mishra
Sure. Yeah. Very helpful, sir. And I see, I think Icon has been doing decently well. So is there any plan to maybe — because we own, I think 51% there, right, like maybe any plan to own full icon in the future.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
No, as of now, there is no plan. There is no discussion with them also. So it is continuing and doing well. So because if we pay this also, then we have to shell out the cash we are preserving. As long as this works well, this is okay, otherwise we may have to pay.
Siddharth Mishra
Understood. Is there any limitations that you see from just 51% share? I mean it’s still majority, but informing deal going after customers, is there any limitation that you see?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
No, no, there is no limitation. They are also professional people and because of us in this company also additional revenue is coming because of our products. So they sold our product in universities and other thing for that all services have come into the icon itself. So on that they are also 49% owner. So that way they are okay, no problem.
Siddharth Mishra
Got it. Helpful. And sir, the AWS partnership that we had announced last quarter, any update there would be very helpful?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Which partnership?
Ritesh Raj Pariyani
AWS.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
AWS there is. That is progressing, but still I would not say that it is progressing the way we wanted, a little bit prographic. So we are having constant meeting with them and seeing how they can push more sales-through their channel, but they are expecting us to push their Amazon trust service through our channels. So this is where this.
Siddharth Mishra
Got it. Got it. And maybe last one, just on the e-sign product that we have, have under trust services, I think is where we report it. I mean, I didn’t find it, but is there a mix of trust services revenue by channel and by this new segment that we used to report? If you can provide that?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
I didn’t get the question properly. Can you repeat?
Siddharth Mishra
So this revenue breakup in trust services, we used to earlier report trust services by channel, trust services by retail and then new products, which include and SSL, TLS certificate. Can we provide that mix or is it not relevant anyway?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
No that retail and channel has become irrelevant because what has happened? Earlier retail we were selling at 2,000 to 3,000 channel, we were selling at 300 like that, INR300 to INR400. Now the control of saturing authority has told you that you have to always sell the end-customer and at a single price which is published in the website, we cannot differentiate the price also. So because of that, that bifurcation became because on everything same realization is there. So this is one. Then the second thing is the e-sane and new product, what is happening? No, is combined with the solution and then and e-stamping, all these things. So now, we are along with the M signer and also the e-stamping. So that’s where that also we have started putting in the enterprise solution. But alone, if you see in itself could be in nine months, it could be a INR10 crore or INR11 crore revenue. Yeah.
Siddharth Mishra
Understood, sir. Very helpful. I think that those were my questions. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Thank you. The next question is from the line of Rohan Vora from Envision Capital. Please go-ahead.
Rohan Vora
Hello. Hello, am I audible?
Operator
Yes,, sir.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Yes, yes.
Rohan Vora
Yes, sir. Thank you for the opportunity. So sir, the first question was on the two acquisitions that we had made, Iken and 295. So what we had said was that in the first year of acquisition, we would like to reach four or five clients and a target revenue that we had in mind. So are we on-track to do that was the first question?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Yes. Mainly four or five universities we have reached and they have also reached the other client to whom we have sold. So almost if you see last year, our own product sales in the US market was around $5 million to $6 million. So those were mainly because we didn’t have any base in US so they — these are all client introduced through them. So that was good. And similarly, the second acquisition, now four big customers they have introduced. So in that we have started working with them, so one or two may material is now in another one or two quarters. So that rate has been good.
Rohan Vora
Okay. So sir, so the customers that we’ve already booking revenue. So what would be the ticket size of these customers on an average?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Or somewhere $300,000, $400,000 and one is $500,000 and one is some $150,000 also. So different, different range is there, but nothing is more than $1 million. Everything is in this $400,000, $500,000 range.
Rohan Vora
Got it. Got it. Sir, another question was on our Trust services business. So while you explained last-time as well that we are now booking at a higher price, the revenue is booking — being booked at a higher price because it’s a single price for both retail and the wholesale channel. However, we see that Q-on-Q the trust service revenue has come down. So what could be the reason for that? Are the volumes going down?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Yeah, volume decline. As I told last-time, almost 40% to 50% volume decline is there. One volume decline is due to the income tax. In income tax, what was happening earlier other than corporate, even the non-corporate like partnership from HUF individual, whoever is doing tax audit, both the tax auditor and them both have to be signed by using the digital signature. Now what has happened is only for companies — limited company, digital signature required, all other can do through other signs. So with the result, almost the tax audit cases are 36 cases in the country on which only 6 lakh to 7 lakh cases DAC is required, 30 lakh cases not required. So that itself will result in almost 30% decline in the overall market. So then another thing is some 10, 12 competitors have come. So some of the business has come to those competitors and they are selling at a much lower-price. For example, we are selling at INR1,500, they are all selling at anywhere from 600 to 800 kind of thing on which itself they give some 50% to 60% commission. And we don’t want to get into that price. So due to these reasons, the total volume has declined. So otherwise if old volume was there, thus sir, we should have been much higher.
Rohan Vora
Got it. Got it. And sir, the last question was, so for our two businesses under enterprise, one is cybersecurity and one is the people as business. So the markets that we are prominent today, how fast are those markets growing or expected to grow over the next five years? Any growth rate on the market?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
What has happened more than for us, the cybersecurity business is growing well because here the number of competition is very less and only three, four players are there that also American players. So we are able to penetrate many markets. So that’s why if you see our — our composition between earlier we thought the paperless transformation will be a much higher percentage. Today that is maybe 25% only or 23%, balance 75% is the cybersecurity business. In the cybersecurity business, we are creating a one-stop shop kind of model with a deep — we are comparing with the Digit product, we are comparing with the Nexus product, product, all combination we are building so that we can penetrate deep into the market. And the transformation market, we have to compete with the in Bay and also several small — during the last two, three years, several smaller players have come across various parts of the world. So that’s where in my opinion, the cybersecurity and related product will have a much higher-growth and the transformation product may have a smaller growth.
Rohan Vora
Understood, sir. And sir, one thing was that we were open to acquisitions and we said that we were looking at acquisition in the European Union if the opportunity arise, are we looking at options there? And what is the status on that? Thank you.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Yeah. We are looking at it. We appointed a European CEO, one person by named Karmina Aleta and he earlier worked as a COO in infrastructure. Is a million company based out of Italy and they operate throughout Europe. So now he to — and he has a number of contacts with these companies engaged in this business. So through him, we are trying to get the deals and then do it. So we are evaluating all that, but nothing has come to a closer or anything like that. If it comes to a closer, then we’ll immediately inform.
Rohan Vora
Sure, sure. So I actually wanted to understand how big would be the size I mean, are we looking at a particular size?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
We are not looking at very big sales because then it will be a very-high share dilution and then the other thing will be otherwise we have to again go to QIP and those kind of thing or swap or those kind of things. So we are looking at anywhere up to EUR10 million, EUR12 million size only, not beyond that. And another important factor is most of the European companies you see, they are zero EBITDA company or sometime negative EBITDA company.
Rohan Vora
Right.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
So unless we have a firm conviction that by acquiring it, we can transfer the technology matter to India and then save cost and arrising out of that, we may be able to ramp-up the EBITDA to at least 14%, then there may not be much say it may affect this overall numbers only. So that’s where whatever we are evaluating within these parameters we are evaluating.
Rohan Vora
Okay. And 10 to 12 million — 10 million would be the consideration. And what would be the revenue size?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Not consideration, revenue itself. Consideration, that depends on the — we are generally negotiating 10 times EBITDA only. So — but if there is a small — EBITDA itself is very small or zero, then they may ask based on the revenue also. So based on revenue, it could be one-time revenue or 10 times EBITDA or with some upside and those kinds of things. Something has to be structured.
Rohan Vora
Okay. Okay. Got it. I’ll get back-in the queue. Thank you, sir.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Yeah.
Operator
Thank you. Participants, you may please press star and want to ask questions. The next question is from the line of Srinath.V from Bellwether Capital. Please go-ahead.
Srinath .V
Hi, sir. Wanted to quickly find out what would be our US top-line for the quarter and likely for the year, sir, just to get a feel of how big we are now in US.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
US top-line for the quarter may be around between INR40 crore to INR45 crores.
Srinath .V
So out-of-the INR92 crore out of India revenue about INR40 crore to INR45 crore would be from US.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
What is it? INR92 crores?
Srinath .V
INR92 crore enterprise revenue that comes from global markets out of that INR92 crore, INR40 crores to INR45 crore would be from a US right, sir?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Yes.
Srinath .V
Got it. Perfect. And wanted to understand how the — what is the size of the CLM business, sir, right now? And I wanted to understand how do you see the growth in this business over like a 12 to 18 months window?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
No, there are CLM and it is sold to a lot of large organization. So for example, India State Bank, LIC, this kind of organization and globally also a lot of Qatar commercial bank. So like this each organization where it is sold is all large organization. So we expect good traction and good growth on that business.
Srinath .V
Okay. How large could that business get, sir, over a two, three-year window?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Two, three year, it depends on — because you see everything, how much marketing and how much people we can spend it depends on that. So suddenly, we don’t want to put also that way. Another model what we are trying is how to strengthen global partnership model and then whether we will be able to enroll some 1,000 partners across the world. So our 2000 partners across the world. So thrust for last six months, that kind of stress we have started getting. So we are doing, but it will take instead of putting our own salespeople because we put our own salespeople in the foreign geography, they are very costly. So already we have put almost some $600,000, $700,000 are only and our people in the US are more than that. So similarly, we have put in every geography. In Europe, we have to put each person will cost EUR300, EUR400,000. So these kind of things. So how to enroll more partners and put a number of partners and give more commission and get busy. This is another thing we are thinking. So that way we can penetrate more.
Srinath .V
Got it. And these partners are largely SIs or resellers or what were the kind of partners are we tying up with, sir?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Both are there. SA is our own side, but more than SAIs, a lot of resellers are there. So we are analyzing them into various buckets, which kind of partner, what kind of thing they are doing, what is their contact, whether that contact will be helpful to us in penetration, whether they are — they are working with the CTO, CAO or they are working with the business users. If they are working with business users, we can push, they are working with CTO CAO, we can push the CLM solution. So the trade class giving everybody and the system integrators predominantly will be on the CLM solution. So wherever they are bidding large bids. So from both sides of how many bids are happening in various geography in each bid who are the system integrator, can we go through that system integrate, that is one approach. Another approach is who are all the partners dealing with the IT departments of large companies and large banks through that partner can we reach the bank or the large companies. So all the approach, classifying the partner in a different, different way, making a partnership program, enrolling them and working out the commission structure. All this has been done in the last six, od months. So — and it has started working. And also we are classing the partners and strategic partner, growth partner, other partners. So that way without much fixed-cost, we may be able to reach the global reach?
Srinath .V
Got it. And sir, what would be the gross margin in this product for us so that to understand how much we could reinvest you know, sharing economics with partner broadly to get a feel, sir.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Gross margin on the product if you see, any product license you say you are not making anything. So let us say INR100 you are selling a product, including implementation. On the INR20 maybe or INR30 implementation, the INR70 or INR80, this will be a full margin to us because upfront all the other cost is already spent in. On this INR25, maybe you may spend 60%, 70% on the services component where you put people and all that. So that is where on the product alone, even 30% 40% gross margin of the sale value, generally, 25%, 30% can be paid to partner. But on the services component, you may — it may be better to pay 7.5% to 10% only and not so much. So that is how we are negotiating.
Srinath .V
Got it. So the service component in these deals will be done by our service entities in US or if you would let the partner do it through their service entities, how would all of this work, sir?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Up to now that kind of partner still has not evolved. Partner who understands this cybersecurity business and able to implement by themselves. So that’s where we have to implement now as of now. But over-time, we want some of the strategic partner, we want to train them also. And then for example, now Tekmahindra, we have signed the partnership agreement. So there — because they are interested in selling the product and getting the service revenue for themselves. So then how do we train them very deep so that they are able to go and implement? But our partner will not mature to that extent, only some big partner will mature to that extent.
Srinath .V
Got it. Given we are putting all of this together, sir, in form of partnership and a physical presence there, wouldn’t it ideally mean should accelerate going-forward, especially in cybersecurity, would that be a fair assessment, sir?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Yes, yes. Yes, because that is where the good profit will come.
Srinath .V
Got it. Perfect. Last one, sir, on acquisition, given now that we have service entities, so would it be fair to assume that US we may not need any more capability addition or people addition and largely acquisitions would be outside of US or how do you look at it, sir?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Mainly we are telling train euro if that materializes, it is okay. But if the Europe doesn’t materialize or if the companies are a loss-making company and we are not able to come to a conclusion on that, then maybe some more in US, maybe we will also look at some more in US also. May not be necessarily service industry, maybe some product or some authority kind of company and those kind of things.
Srinath .V
Got it, sir. Just last one, sir, wanted to understand this quarter, EM Signer had done very well in the enterprise business significant quarter-on-quarter and year-on-year growth. What were the key wins in the paperless business this quarter? What was driving it? One would felt that the growth in that business may not be as good as what you’re reporting. So wanted to understand what’s driving growth in people as we.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
So growth in India, a lot of deals are driving the growth because in MSINR, we have made it capable of as a combination of e-signature plus e-stamping plus workflow. Because of that during the last seven, eight months, a lot of banks, a lot of brokerages and also a lot of intech companies have come to us. So that is where in India it is developing. Even we are also redefining the product to go into the retail so that retail, any lental agreement, any agreement, so even all the liars and charter contents can become partners. And through that partner, even transaction-wise, it can be sold. Only even one transaction, they can come through transaction, they can come through that model we are also — we are reworking the product. So once that is there, it can also get good growth.
Srinath .V
So this is broadly for loan documents, sir, e-stamping.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Yeah, e-stamping plus e-signature with workloads.
Srinath .V
Got it, got it. Cool, sir. Thank you. Thanks for your time, sir. I’ll get back into the question queue.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.
Operator
Thank you. Participants you may please press star and one to ask questions. The next question is from the line of Prem Lunia from Astute Investment Management. Please go-ahead.
Prem Lunia
Hello, sir. Thank you for taking my questions. So, sir, I wanted to understand the e-sign business and signs of business. So the number you said that there was around INR9 crore to INR10 crores of business in the nine months. This was for the e-sign or there is some part of M signer as well in this?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
No, this is only for, which is a part of MSINR, when we sell the, there are three components. One component is the component on that. Itself, if you see today, we are almost giving of 1,50,000 per day. And that fetches some INR5 kind of thing. So that level of will itself will take around INR10 crores. Then the has the other component, which is the overflow component and also where we are integrating the e-stamping into that. The e-stamping is going through the NESL. So per document there we are also charging some INR30 on which some portion is to be paid to NESL. But the stamp paper that is not coming in top-line. Stampapper money also we are collecting, but that directly goes into the stampaper. So that doesn’t come into the top-line. But these two portions come into the top-line.
Prem Lunia
So revenue as a whole would be how much and e-sign is a part of it that I understand. Is N was a newer, how much would need the volumes till now?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Yum revenue separately, maybe Ritesh will give you later. Maybe you can note down its number what is your phone number?
Prem Lunia
My phone number?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Yeah because can telephone you and.
Prem Lunia
Okay, okay. 866
Ritesh Raj Pariyani
966 or 866?
Prem Lunia
866.
Ritesh Raj Pariyani
Okay.
Prem Lunia
8618543.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Yeah he will — after the call he will get the number on telephone.
Prem Lunia
But also I wanted to understand the e-sign landscape as a whole, as you told that many of competitors are coming in and also in the M signal, similar products are coming in by competitors. How do you see it evolving? And what would be the margins here on the EBITDA front?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
First, I will explain the and then we’ll go to the., the volumes are considerably increased, but all the Saturing authorities are not giving the. So the predominantly people giving are the one is that earlier what was called the NRDLE governance, which is currently called the protein. Then the other is the, which is government departmental itself, then some amount CDSL is doing under. On that, because this — because of the historically, for some three, four years because of the doubt of whether can be given to private people or not like that, we were not having the other connection. At that time, the, which was really a governor, generally developed a lot of business and almost became a virtual monopoly. So then we started entering later and competing, but still today, we have some 30% to 35% market-share in the e-signature.
But it is not highly productive because though we realized a gross of INR5, almost INR3 goes into the other charges. So net-net, we are realizing INR2 out of that. So INR2, even if you do some crores of signature, for cross signature, INR3 crores signature, that’s why it may be only INR10 crore revenue per year-on this basis. So this is one thing. Then two things are, one is the is also giving it free of cost to all the government department. So government department doesn’t want to pay this one INR20 bps also, mainly it is coming from the private people. So this is on the easing thing. So easing, we have to be there because it is very important for the country as a whole. We have to develop everything, we have to provide to everybody. But if this sailing because it started at INR70 and then INR37.5 net realization and come down now to INR120 share to INR2 piece. So this is where it is. So once that position at some point, some major people will leave this business, then we can come back and price at a higher price for the current signer is doing very well in the Middle-East.
In India, it is not doing what we originally intended. We originally intended, it has to become a full workflow solution for the entire bank or for the entire large company and all that. But today, what is happening, banks and other people are using for some partial purpose, not for the whole digital transformation, partial purpose. And so that is where we are providing as a gateway to also so that gateway services number of people are using through API and the gateway to e-sign plus e-stamping plus small, small workflow like that. So that business is also improving. That’s where we want to retail — offer it for retail also in India. But if you see the Middle-East, in Middle-East, all the banks are started using MCNR as a complete overcro transformation. And same thing now is happening a little bit in South America. And North-America also some three, four customers are using words complete transformation. So then we are able to sell anywhere from $400,000, $500,000 kind of deals.
Prem Lunia
No, I couldn’t get the number. Hello?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Hello?
Prem Lunia
Yeah, I couldn’t get the number in the end part. How much are we doing?
Venkatraman Srinivasan
$400,000 to $500,000 per deal in the Middle-East and also in US and all.
Prem Lunia
Right and like we did for Qatar, I think in Qatar right now. Got it. So we see this evolving and how much would be the margins in the.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
Also like any other product margin almost if hardware is not included, it will be 87%, 88%. Depending on partner margin only will be there. Otherwise, there is no other direct cost involved.
Prem Lunia
Okay. Sure. Thank you. That’s it.
Operator
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, as there are no further questions, I would now like to hand the conference over to Mr for closing comments. Over to you, sir.
Venkatraman Srinivasan
I would like to thank everyone for joining the call today. We remain focused on delivering consistent performance and innovative solutions that enable secure digital transformation for our clients across the globe. For any additional information or queries, please get-in touch with our Investor Relations Advisors who are partners and thank you once again. Thanks.
Operator
Thank you, members of the management. On behalf of eMudhra Limited, that concludes this conference. We thank you for joining us and you may now disconnect your lines. Thank you.