Dishman Carbogen Amcis Ltd (NSE: DCAL) Q3 2026 Earnings Call dated Feb. 04, 2026
Corporate Participants:
Stephan Fritschi — Executive Vice-President Business Units; Deputy CEO
Harshil Dalal — Global Chief Financial Officer
Paolo Armanino — Chief Operating Officer
Analysts:
Unidentified Participant
Smit Shah — Analyst
Yash Tanna — Analyst
Ankit Gupta — Analyst
Gunit Singh Narang. — Analyst
Ramanuj Chandak — Analyst
Vivian Joshi — Analyst
Presentation:
operator
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. I’m Karthikeyan, moderator for the conference call. Welcome to Dman Carbon, AMSYS Ltd. Q3FY26 conference call. We have with us today from the management, Mr. Hasil Dalal, Global Chief Financial Officer, Mr. Paolo Armanino, Chief Operating Officer and Mr. Stephen Fritchi, Chief Executive officer. As a reminder, all participants will be in listen only mode and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing star 100 on a touchstone telephone. Please note this conference is recorded.
I would now like to hand over the floor to Mr. Stephen Frutchi. Thank you. And over to you, sir.
Stephan Fritschi — Executive Vice-President Business Units; Deputy CEO
Hello everybody. This is Stefan Fritsche speaking. I’m the CEO of Carbogen Ansys. I’M happy to also welcome Hashing Galal, our Global Chief Finance Officer and Paolo Armanino, our CEO at the dschmann facility here in Ahmedabad. Before we go and dive into the financial numbers, let’s look at the brief update on Carbogen Amsis business wise starting with Sambo Sear, that’s our French subsidiary dealing with drug product. The market shows increased interest in the product capabilities. We got more RFPs, more projects secured over the past quarter and we also got interest in late phase projects, phase two and so on.
In drug substance, we passed successfully a mock FDA audit at the Vionas site. This is one of the four Swiss sites. That’s a preparation inspection for PAI inspection which will be executed sooner or later by the fda which is a great success also for this little site in Switzerland and among non APIs. Also the ADC related molecules with higher priority status are in our pipeline, specifically in oncology, which is great news as well. And we will report back as soon as we get more information from our customers that we can disclose those names. What we also have is this co investment expansion project.
We talked recently together with a Japanese customer. The project is on track. We are now at the detailed engineering activities and planning so that we can start soon with the construction which has the preliminary work has already started. But then we go into the detailed construction bigger capabilities in Switzerland in our Arau and Newland facility. The last business unit we cover here is the specialty. There we see a strong vda, vitamin D and analog sales. This is the branch and part of the portfolio with high margin. So this is very satisfying and we are happy about this.
The cost reduction programs we have initiated we continue specifically on our cholesterol production that this is getting more profitable. Also we open new sources for our main product or starting material in our Wenandaal facilities. Specifically on the wool Greece coming to the sales activities. As you might remember in the past I always said be close to the market, be close to the customers. This is a slogan which is still valid and this we support by adding more salespeople. We have hired additional salespeople in China and also in the US So the focus is on attraction of new development projects.
This means early phase but also late phase projects because these are feeding our eventually our commercial pipeline. Some different initiatives have been started also to tackle Big Pharma where we are historically also present. But we want to expand these activities as well as because there is the majority of the promising blockbuster projects. What we have also started over the past months is an initiative specifically on early projects and there we branded this initiative as Sprint. The letters S, P, R I and T stand for smart and efficient, proactive and agile, regulatory compliant, innovative science, no compromises on safety and trusted partner.
This activity brings us even closer and more attractive to our clients to be at the very beginning of the value chain on non GMP and early phase activities. There we have started this branding initiative also by modifying our cost base and our working processes. So this is promising and we get the first orders income these days and in the upcoming weeks. We also reported back the tight collaboration between cooperjean, Ansys and Tishman Decal. This means that we widen our portfolio in the sense that we can offer big quantities also out of Switzerland, that we are facing our customers in project management in the sales activities so that we also can offer big volumes quantities namely that we do the development in carbon and the production the big production big volumes.
In India with Fishman there are already multiple big scale projects in collaboration but also specifically with customers in discussion and customers are reacting positively to this and we are very confident that this will be a great success. The ADC expansion we talked recently is still under discussion and evaluation and we are hoping to get some conclusion here very soon. So all in all I perceive the position of Tishman Carbon Emsys as very well we conquer and add new business and we are looking very confidently into the future and very optimistic and positively with this I would like to end here.
I thank you for your interest in Fishman Carbon Empsis and I hand over to Harshil Dalal.
Harshil Dalal — Global Chief Financial Officer
Thank you very much Stefan and very good afternoon to everybody. Regarding the financial results of the quarter ending 12-31-2025. I’m sure you would have had a chance to go through it. I’ll take you through the numbers for the quarter and for the 9 months ending 12-31-2025. For the quarter ending 12-31-2025 we did a revenue of about 720 crores as compared to 682 crores in the comparable quarter of last year which is a growth of about 5.5%. We actually expected the revenue to be higher by about 20 odd crores in this particular quarter. However, there was a delay in the shipment of certain products which has now gone out in January and the deal was largely on account of delaying supply of Key Intermediate as well as because of the holiday season in Europe because of Christmas.
However, not to be disappointed, we do expect that the revenues in the current quarter should be higher by that amount than as expected. The cost for the quarter ending 12-31-25 stood at close to about 20% as compared to about 15% in the comparable quarter of last year. The increase in the cogs, specifically in this quarter was largely on account of higher commercial supply as compared to what we had supplied in the first half of the year where the revenue was predominantly coming from the development side. Having said that, in the current quarter we also had a good amount of development revenue largely coming from the non late phase three molecules where obviously from an EBITDA perspective the margins are lower as compared to the phase three work that we do.
The employee expenses for the quarter stood at about 355 crores as compared to 332 crores in the comparable quarter of last year. The 355 crores includes certain provisions that were made on account of certain severance packages that were getting paid out to certain employees at the end of December, plus certain social insurance cost provision that was baked into in this particular quarter. The other expenses on account of the cost optimization efforts that we are undertaking across the group stood at about 109 crores as compared to 111 crores in the comparable quarter of last year. Overall, all of this translated into a reported ebitda of about 113 crores which is a margin of about 15.7%.
On the top line, the depreciation and amortization was more or less in line with what we reported in Q2 and Q1 of the current financial year at about 84 crores. The finance cost stood at about 45.7 crores.
operator
Participants, kindly stay connected while we connect the management back on the call.
Harshil Dalal — Global Chief Financial Officer
Okay, I’m sorry for that but I don’t know why I got disconnected so I don’t know where I stopped but I explained the depreciation and amortization which was at about 84 crores more or less in line with the previous quarter. The finance cost stood at about 45.7 crores in this finance cost of 45.7 crores. There was a one time expense of about 11 crores that was booked in business quarter. This was on account of the new syndicated facilities that we entered into with the consortium banks in Switzerland where there was a refinancing as well as a provision for enhancement of the credit facilities and because of which we had booked that expenditure in this quarter.
Overall all of this translated into a profit before tax of negative. The tax expense stood at about 2.5 crores and the profit after tax stood at about minus 12.97 crores for the nine months ending 12.31.25. As far as the revenues are concerned, we reported a growth in revenue of about 4.3%. What we expect, and we are very much on target to achieve that is that by the end of the financial year this growth rate should be much higher than what it is reported for the first nine months. More or less in line with what we had stated in the previous call.
The cost stood at about 273 crores which is close to about 13, 13.5% of the revenue. The cost this year is much lesser as compared to what it was in the previous year, largely on account of higher contribution of the development revenue, especially the late phase three molecules. The employee expenses stood at about 1,040 crores as compared to 968 crores which is an increase by about 7.5%. The other expenses stood at 363 crores as compared to 354 crores in the first nine months of the last financial year, which is an increase by about 2.5%. Overall for the first nine months we stand at an EBITDA of about 402.68 crores as compared to 316 crores as reported for the first nine months of 12-31-24.
This translates into an EBITDA margin of 19.4% for the current year as compared to 15.9% in the first nine months of last year which is a growth of about 27.3% as reported in the first nine months of this year. The depreciation and amortization for the first nine months stood at about 250 crores which is an increase as compared to the last year largely on account of the operationalization of the manufacturing lines at our French facility and more or less it will remain at the same run rate as we look into the future. The finance cost to that about 130 crores as compared to 170 crores.
We are seeing the borrowing cost for us going down, especially at the Swiss entity where now the Xeron, which is the Swiss equivalent Libor has gone down to 0% and our effective interest cost is now between 3.3.5%. However, because of certain one time finance cost expenditures that were booked, the finance cost looks higher. However, we should see that in the coming quarters this finance cost should come down. All of this translated into a profit before tax of 58.76 crores and a profit after tax of 75.7 crores after accounting for the deferred tax assets largely out of the French facility.
So this is a significant improvement in the results for the first nine months of the financial year as compared to the first nine months of the previous financial year. Going into the segment wise breakup of the revenues and the margins, the CDMO business keeps on doing well for us both on the development as well as on the commercial manufacturing side. As I mentioned earlier, this year we are seeing a huge amount of revenue coming from development as compared to commercial and we expect that it will be the same trend in the next financial year as well.
For the quarter we did a revenue of about 630 crores as compared to 590 crores in this segment as compared to the previous financial year’s quarter which represents a six. For the first nine months the revenue stood at about 1,750 crores as compared to 1,723 crores in the first nine months of the previous financial year. We expect that this revenue should grow in the Q4 of the current financial year and would keep on showing a significant growth as we look into the future. The marketable molecule segment did a revenue of about 90 crores in the quarter as compared to 92 crores, so more or less flattish.
For the first nine months this figure stood at 330 crores as compared to 271 crores which represents a 21.5% increase which is largely driven by our vitamin D analogs and cholesterol business. From a margin perspective, we did close to about 17% margin on the CDMO side of the business which also includes our French facility, as compared to 22% in the previous financial year where most of the revenues was driven by the late phase molecules. In the first nine months of the year we did an EBITDA of about 19.7% as compared to 17.2% which is an increase of about 250 pips as compared to the first nine months of the previous year.
The marketable molecule segment did a 7.2% margin largely because there was more of the cholesterol sales that happened in this quarter as compared to the previous quarter. However, if you see the first nine months the margins stood at about 17.5% as compared to 8.3% representing a 920 pips increase in the margins on the marketable molecule side. So as you look into the future for this particular segment and more specifically cholesterol and vitamin D analogs, we would keep on seeing the margin improvements where our target is to first get to the 20% margin and then take it up to 25%.
So this was some of the financial highlights for the quarter and nine months ending 12-31-25. With this I would like to hand over the call to Paolo Armanino, our Chief Operating Officer for the India operations and then we can open the floor for Q and A.
Paolo Armanino — Chief Operating Officer
Thank you Arshil and good afternoon to all the shareholders. So I will be brief to not speak time to our investor questions in the last quarter I would say we continue our journey which is currently based on strengthening the relationship with Carbogenensis on Crank’s business apart consolidating operation at both. Bagla and Maroda locations. As I already mentioned from 1st of September earlier already mentioned earlier 1st of September we are having a single point of contact for what console the Carbogenomics Additional Carbogenomics Phase Team Mr. Francois Baduel, Chief Operating Chief Business Officer is now leading the Digital group SAFE teams across all the sites globally India, China, Switzerland, France, UK and Netherlands. This of course is a great advantage for all of us. Since its inception we already witnessed several progresses in the overall safety operation. We also witnessed a significant improvement of the quality of the Cranks proposal receiver itself. We had several on site visits and even due diligence with the Japanese customer was performed in November and more are planned for the future quarters.
The same structure for both Decal and Carbogen has been rearranged keeping to account also the operational teams in different countries. Dedicated technical groups with expertise in special techniques were deployed to support and assess new proposals received by the sales group. Additional the organization keep investing in expanding the Market Intelligence department globally. We already witness as the Market Intelligence is substantially supporting the sales activity and just recently we have added an important marketing intelligence resource in India which is reporting to the consolidated group team in Switzerland. Needless to say that Market Intelligence announces significantly the job of the sales department.
Market Intelligence department which is based out of Switzerland is also reported to our cbo practically clubbing together Market Intelligence and Sales groups. In two weeks we are having once again here in India our CBO and is key people to discuss the business strategy for the upcoming quarters Cramps. Proposal wise we keep receiving several important projects for Babla including the unit and also including early phase projects. We are also very pleased to see an increase in the proposal for Naronda Cramps which we consider strategically very important for the overall business. And the last note is about our softgel formulation plant which keep attracting the interest of very many different customers in India and abroad who want to develop not only generic business but also use Bishmann Carbon Dynamics as a CBO for the new CRAN business.
As Tekan mentioned earlier, we are very confident for the future of the company and of the overall Dysschman Group. After said that I hand over the call back to the moderator.
Questions and Answers:
operator
Thank you, sir. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin the question and answer session. If you have a question, please press Star and one on your telephone keypad and wait for your turn to ask the question. If you would like to withdraw your request, you may do so by pressing Star and one again. We will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question from the line of Smith Shah from JHP Securities. Please go ahead.
Smit Shah
Yeah, can you shed some light on one new molecule which we have commercialized this quarter? Like in terms of the molecule size if any and from which facility are we supplying this?
Harshil Dalal
Yes. So this is for leukemia. We will not be able to mention the name of the customer at this point. And right now, I mean it was developed at the Swiss side and it would be supplied from the Swiss side. Right now the market opportunity could be quite significant. Could be possibly a blockbuster drug.
Smit Shah
Okay. Okay. But do we have any plans to get the commercial batch to the Babla site?
Harshil Dalal
Well, we would, we would have to discuss with the customers. With the customer, you know, based upon the projections what they are giving year over year and then at appropriate time, you know we can think about tech transfer or something of that. So depending upon the volumes.
Smit Shah
Okay. Okay, got it. And can you tell us what would be the revenues in 9 month FY26 from the Babla site? And after the current quarter results, do we still stick to our revenue guidance of 250 to 290 crore for FY26 from the Babla site?
Harshil Dalal
Yeah. So for the first nine months the total revenue was about 150 odd crores. And we do expect that there should be higher revenues coming in Q4 as compared to Q3. But yeah, I mean the bigger growth would largely be seen in financial year 27. But yeah, it should be closer to about 250 crores by the end of the financial year.
Smit Shah
Okay, got it. And can you also shed some light on the integration that you’ve been talking about between Carbohydran NTT and Bishman NTD which is the Indian facilities, more in terms of the numbers like how many clients have already visited the facility? How many molecules do we expect to commercialize in FY27 which will lead to the ramp up and how much of these molecules will be an nc? And yeah.
Harshil Dalal
Paolo, you want to take that?
Paolo Armanino
We are seeing we already had several visits in the last six months. We are working very closely with the carbohydrates people. So we just started now phase two. So as I mentioned also we started working also in the early phases, not only in commercial. So I would say in the last month we had four or five clients already coming. And we are seeing we already have other clients coming in the next quarters. So it’s just a trend which keep growing.
Smit Shah
Okay. Okay, got it. And one last question, after which I’ll get back in the queue. What are the EBITDA margins for development activities like phase two and phase three and that of commercial molecules? Just a broad range would also help.
Harshil Dalal
Well, a broad range would be in phase three is where we make our highest margins. So you were talking about upwards of 30%. The early phase would be close to 12 to 15%. And commercial, you know, if done in Switzerland, would be close to about 25%. Obviously in India is where we are now focused, focusing on doing more of the commercial work. And in India, if you talk about the commercial work, that would be close to about 35 to 40% at a minimum.
Smit Shah
Okay, okay, got it. Thank you so much and best of luck. I’ll get back in the queue.
Harshil Dalal
Thank you, sir.
operator
Thank you. Next question comes from the line of Yash Tanna from I thought tms. Please go ahead.
Yash Tanna
Yeah, hi team. Am I audible?
operator
Yes.
Yash Tanna
Yeah. So I have two questions. I think so. The first one is on India. I think we’ve submitted. We’ve been saying that you have submitted significant amount of RFPs to ramp up the India operations. So looking at the current pipeline and the RFP submitted, what is the visibility that you have at least for the next one year and also maybe the next one two years. Also let’s say if you submit RFPs of 100, what is the conversion typically for you? And also if you can share the amount of RFPS submitted already.
Harshil Dalal
Sure. So, you know, right now, banking upon the strong relationship that Cardbojan Amsys has with many of the customers, we have given out a lot of RFPs from the India side. And in terms of value, this would be close to about 1200 crores worth of RFPS that have been given out, we expect that at least 30, 35% of this should get converted into orders. And that gives us the confidence. And this is an ongoing thing. So there are more and more RFP that are going out to the customers. So we do expect a significant ramp up.
As far as the India Assets are concerned because now that the capacity is already created, it is all about filling up these capacities with this new rfp. So these are the ones which we have given out based upon the relationship that covers and AMSYS carries with customers plus certain new customers as well. And then we already have the base load in India which we expect should also continue. So overall our first target is to get to 500 crores of revenue which should happen in the next 12 to 18 months is what our expectation is. And then the next target is to get to 800 crores of revenue coming out of India cycle so that we have a clear path as far as the next three to five years are concerned where we want to take the India business to.
Yash Tanna
Got it, got it. And this 30 to 35% just follow up is has to be supplied in the next 12 to 18 months is what you said, the incremental RFPs.
Harshil Dalal
Well these are RFPs, you know, some of them have already gotten converted into orders, some of them are in the process of. So you know, once they get converted into orders, you know you have to give more or less a four to five months for the entire manufacturing process and then they get supplied. So so yes, I mean overall what we expect at what point these RFPs, some of these RFPs will get converted into orders? You know, we would not have a control on that because much of it is also dependent on the customer. But you know, we should get a fair amount of visibility I would say in the next six months time.
Yash Tanna
All right, so got it. My second question was related to a molecule that we supply. So one of like the partner of the molecule that you supply to has received uh, you know, additional indication approvals for first line metastatic breast cancer and also a breakthrough therapy designation for post new driven therapy for breast cancer. So if you can explain each of these like indications separately and the impact on our commercial volumes that we will have in the next few years. Because in our understanding these additional indications expand the patient pool significantly.
Harshil Dalal
Absolutely. And based upon the projections that we have seen, not just from the analysts, but also as quoted by the management of the customer, the volumes seem to keep on increasing. And that was also one of the reason why we entered into a second round of co investment earlier this year with the customer. So yeah, we do expect a significant ramp up as far as the linker payload supplies from our site are concerned. And the payload would keep on changing depending upon the end product. But as far as the linker is concerned, it remains the same.
So this is something that we will keep on supplying to the customer into the future as well. And we do expect that the volume should ramp up over the next three to five years time. But Stefan, maybe if you want to add something.
Stephan Fritschi
Absolutely. I’m fully agreeing with you Harshield. The current capacity we have is based on the first forecast the client came to us with. And as soon as the customer realized that he got more indications which were successfully tackled, he also came to us and asked for bigger capacities. And as we were that time currently limited in capacity, we agreed to joint investment and now we get the second round. Again, I can repeat that. We are on track and this should be finished in about one and a half years.
Yash Tanna
Got it, got it. That’s helpful. And sir, if you can share a few numbers around this molecule or this therapy indication as in how much revenue are we currently doing and what is the expectation in the next, let’s say three to four years?
Harshil Dalal
Well, for the last financial year we Supplied Roughly about 22 million Swiss francs worth of material to the customer. This year we expect it will be about 30 million and for the next year it could be closer to about 40 million and then it will just keep on increasing. But just to take a fair estimate, you can assume close to about 1 to 1.1x as the revenue that can be generated on the second round of CO investment which will be, which is for 25 million Swiss francs. So that should contribute close to about 30 million of incremental revenue.
Yash Tanna
Got it, got it. And this 30 or 40 million that you’re saying that wouldn’t actually include the newer capacity because that is anyway coming after one and a half years, am I right?
Harshil Dalal
Absolutely, that’s correct.
Yash Tanna
Got it, Got it. All right sir, I have more questions. I’ll jump back in the queue. Thank you.
operator
Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, if you have a question, please press star and one on your telephone keypad. I repeat, ladies and gentlemen, if you have a question please press star and one on a telephone keypad. Next question comes from the line of Ankit Gupta from Bamboo Capital. Please go ahead.
Ankit Gupta
Thanks for the opportunities on the India business side. You know Paulo, you and Harshal, if you can talk about, we had submitted some of the RFPs for which, you know, we were expecting approvals from the customers and these were expected to be, you know, pretty big given our Indian operations. And we were expecting the customer to, you know, come back with the order in Jan of this year. So any updates on that? And I’m talking about, you know like the customer, the Japanese customer, the, the Swiss customer who, for whom we supplied for Japanese and the Chinese market.
And we were in discussion with some intermediate which was expected to be pretty big.
Harshil Dalal
Right. So, so for one Japanese customer, not the same one that is supplying to. Well, it is also supplying another intermediate to that particular Japanese customer for India, you know, we already have had that we are already supplying to that Japanese customer. What we have given out a quote for is the final API as well, for which and it is not just for the Japanese market, but we have also given that out for the Chinese customer as well. And we expect. So, you know, the preliminary feedback was that they were okay with the price that we had given.
But the final confirmation that we should receive should be most likely in April or in May. So that is the sense that we have received from the customer.
Ankit Gupta
And on the Indian operation side, this year has been pretty challenging for us in terms of revenue and the margins because of the operating leverage also decline significantly given, you know, like, although you have spoken about the ramp up which will happen next year and so how, you know, like all this 1300 crore RFP that we have submitted and that we have bid for for the Indian operations for some of the big molecules. If we can talk about the timelines, then we expect customers to get back to us. If you can elaborate on that and how will that impact our numbers for FY27 standalone business.
Harshil Dalal
Right. So in terms of the timelines, you know what I can say, as I mentioned earlier, you will have to give it roughly about six months in order to get from commitment from the customer. Having said that, even within this six months there would be, I mean we are expecting some of the RFPs to get converted into order. But you know, within a period of six months we should get a very good visibility on conversion of many of these RFPs into order, part of which will be supplied in the next financial year and then going into the future.
Because in our business, you know, these are mostly like long term contracts that we enter into with the customers. So it is just this initial, I would say peaking phase where we have to put in the extra efforts. Because one, you know, we have the customer on board more or less, we remain their partners throughout the life cycle of the molecule.
Ankit Gupta
But in that case, if you’re expecting majority of the RFPs to get finalized in the coming six months, then you will also do, you know, trials and you know, validation batches from existing facilities. So the significant delta for this RFP should only come in FY28 and not FY27, is that correct? Understanding.
Harshil Dalal
Yeah. So you know, there will be a part impact that should come in FY27 but the major part of it should be in FY28. So that’s the reason, you know, what we are seeing is that the first target is to get to the 500 crore mark which should happen most likely by the end of the next financial year or it might spill over a little bit in the year after that. But the year after that it should be much higher than the 500 crores of. Because many of these RFPs would have gotten converted into orders.
Paolo Armanino
I can add one thing also. Yeah. Certain amount of RFP we are discussing this moment with the customer are for commercial production directly. So there are several RFP which are going from early phases and. But there are also a certain amount of RFP which can go directly to commercial sales. So this could contribute already significantly in the current financial year. So we are discussing also RFP which require commercial directly.
Ankit Gupta
And you know, on the ADC front, if you can talk about, you know there are other drugs of our major customer there which are in phase three. So any, you know, visibility on that front and you know, any commercial orders or visibility that the client has given, given to us for the suppliers.
Harshil Dalal
Well, for the Japanese customer that we, that we currently have on the agency side, yes. I mean there are other indications. Somebody also asked earlier because you know, some of the indications have, have received the first line treatment approval. You know, yesterday it was announced that the molecule has received priority approval for another indication. So I’m talking about new other molecules.
Ankit Gupta
Other molecules for this, existing molecules, you know, other than that there are some other than this.
Harshil Dalal
Yeah, we are working on other AD molecules as well, including one in phase three and then there are other molecules in the earlier phases as well. So all of them are progressing right now quite well. At what point, you know, even the phase three molecule course commercial, you know that is not yet known but we expect maybe in the next 12 months, 12 to 18 months it should get commercial. So which should again be, you know, what we are expecting or what the customer is expecting would be again a blockbuster traffic.
Ankit Gupta
Just last question from my side, you know, on the, on the French subsidiary side, if you can tell us how much has been the revenue for the quarter for the nine months and how have been the losses here and how do you expect the performance to improve going forward and there were some challenges on the raw material side from the customer’s end. So have they been sorted out and your view, your outlook for next year on this?
Harshil Dalal
Sure. So on the front subsidiary. You know, as Stefan mentioned in his opening remarks, you know, we are seeing a lot of interest for that particular site, a lot of orders that have already been booked and there are several in the pipeline. So what we are expecting is that in the next financial year we should be breaking even in that particular facility with both the manufacturing lines. So that’s the visibility that we have right now for the current financial year. In the first nine months we did a revenue of about 7 million euros. And we should end the year with close to about nine and a half to 10 million euros of revenue, which is a bit lower than what we were expecting.
But the, the single most reason for this is because of the delay in supplies of certain drug substance that was supposed to come from the supplier bank, which is now going to come only at the end of Q4 of the current financial year. So all of that revenue should come in the next financial year. But overall, from a business perspective, after receipt of the ANSN approval, we are seeing a huge amount of inquiries, a lot of inquiries getting converted into orders earlier. The customers who had apprehension coming to this particular site, we are seeing a lot of activity happening over there.
Stefan, do you want to add something more?
Stephan Fritschi
Yes, thank you. What I would like also to mention is this synergy effect, what we have between drug substance and drug product. So this package, what we can offer is attractive to clients. And due to this presence of both portfolio products, elements, drug substance and drug product, we got an increased number of customers being interested in the combination of both. And since we have the collaboration agreement with the the other Swiss company, Celonic, which is working on antibodies, we have even a third dimension and this is an increased interest on the market that we can offer the whole portfolio from antibodies to the drug linker payload and conjugation and then the drug product formulation there we have significant projects in the quotation phase.
Of course, again I cannot disclose, but once this has been finished the negotiation successfully, hopefully then we can disclose also this and tell a bit more details.
Ankit Gupta
So what revenues do we expect for FY27 from the French subsidiary?
Harshil Dalal
So that should be closer to about 18 million.
Ankit Gupta
Okay. And that should help us at least breaking even at the EBITDA level.
Harshil Dalal
Yes, yes, absolutely.
Ankit Gupta
Okay, thank you.
Paolo Armanino
Thank you.
operator
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Venkata Patawala. Please go ahead.
Unidentified Participant
One is what is the size of. Order pipeline that we have a Japanese customer from the over next two years and considering that they have multiple indications and multiple ADC molecules and as A dishman is going to be a primary supplier for this payload and linker. How you are going to plan the secure these supply pipelines?
Harshil Dalal
Yeah, so you know, we, as I mentioned earlier, we have a fair visibility on the revenues coming from this particular customer over the next, at least for the next three years. And that is the reason, you know, why we are doing the co investment along with the customer. And that should allow us to ramp up the revenue significantly once the supply storm from the second co investments also start. So yes, I mean we would be the primary suppliers of the payload and the linker to the customer. The customer. I mean we don’t do the conjugation right now because the customer does it by itself is what an understanding is.
But yeah, I mean we haven’t seen any, any negative news from the customer. Everything looks very much on track including the establishment of the new site in terms. Sorry, your second question. In terms of securing the supply chain. So what? Sorry, so being that we are going.
Unidentified Participant
To supply five to seven ADC molecules, so how you are going to secure our supply pipeline?
Harshil Dalal
Well, our supply pipeline. So we also manufacture the key starting materials as well as the intermediates for this final API or the linker and the payload that we supply to the customer, except for one intermediate which is currently sourced from another company. Apart from that, if you see right now this particular molecule is manufactured in Shanghai. As far as the KSM is concerned, KSM intermediate also in Manchester, in Neuland, in Arau, as well as in Tukwor. So there are multiple sites across the group that are involved in manufacturing this payload and linker for the customer.
And again the quantities are not huge. You know, here we’re talking about small quantities but high value.
Unidentified Participant
Yeah. Yep. So the. My second question is.
operator
Join back with you.
Unidentified Participant
Yep, thank you.
operator
Next question comes from the line of Gunit Singh from Countercyclical Investment pms. Please go ahead.
Gunit Singh Narang.
Hi sir. My first question would be regarding our current capacity and the utilization. So what is our capacity utilization on a consolidated level and what is the maximum revenue potential from current capacity?
Harshil Dalal
Sure. So the capacity utilization varies across all of our sites. So for example, the Swiss site is operating at roughly about 75% capacity. The Frank site has just started operations last year, so that’s at roughly about 20%. The Netherlands facility is at about 60%. Manchester at about 75%, Shanghai at about 50%. Apart from that, India which is at about 20 to 25%. So this is more or less the utilization across all of our sites. So as far as the commercial manufacturing work is concerned. We do not have any capacity constraints right now, so to say because we try to utilize the India sites as much as possible.
As far as the development work is concerned, we are trying to aim for more important more of the early phase development work and those are the efforts that Stefan also mentioned in his opening remarks in order to get more of the early phase development work. And we keep on ramping up the operations out of the French facility. So that’s the strategy. Plus in China we have now received the local FDA certification basis which we have also hired new salesperson in China in order to target the pharmaceutical market in China so that the Shanghai facility can then start manufacturing and selling into the into the Chinese market.
So that will help us to ramp up the utilization out of the China side as well.
Gunit Singh Narang.
Got it sir. So basically in FY 2019 we were doing about 210 crores of PAT and about 2000 crores of revenues when our block of plant and building was about 2000 CRS and now it has almost doubled over the previous six years. But our revenues have not even increased at the rate of inflation. And we are part, we haven’t able to achieve the margin of the part we did in FY19. So I would like to understand the asset turn for the additional say 2000cr over previous six years have been even less than 0.3. So I mean was it misallocation of funds or is it so such that we added capacity but there is no demand in the market or we are facing some problems in ramping up our facilities.
So what is the main reason or what is your take on this? And yeah.
Harshil Dalal
Yeah, yeah. So there are like three or four factors. So first of all the right way to look at our, you know, our assets would be after taking out the multi year depreciation of the rupee against the foreign currency because you know that all of our assets get restated at the closing exchange rate, you know, which actually blows up the overall fixed asset base. So right now you know that is almost an effect of almost thousand crores plus sitting as part of the cross plot just on account of the foreign exchange fluctuation. That’s number one.
Number two is that you know there is a huge amount of goodwill which is also sitting in the balance sheet which is a completely non cash item which needs to be discounted in order to look at the fixed assets objectively. Third investments which have. Okay, so okay, now I’m just mentioning all the factors as far as the overall block is concerned. Thirdly if you see the capacity additions which have been done, you know, one is the French facility where the total investment was close to about 50 million euros. So give or take about 500 crores.
And second was in India which was close to about 300 odd crore. So these 800 crores of addition which was done, you know, we have yet to realize the potential out of these investments which have been done. Because the Trend site commenced operations last year, we expect it to ramp up and get to the break even level in the next financial year. Number one, the India side obviously had issues because of the EQM observations that came in March of 2020, because of which the performance was subdued over the last four to five years. And now we are seeing a good amount of difficulty as far as the ramp up of the India operations are concerned.
So as we keep on increasing the utilization at both these locations, that will have a significant positive impact not just on the revenue but also on the margin front. And that is the reason our target is to get as quickly as possible to the 25, 26% consolidated margin that we were doing prior to March of 2020. So that’s the first target to be achieved over the next two years and then get to the 30% EBITDA margin mark by the end of 2030. So that is how the ramp up in the revenues and the margins would happen.
Got it.
Gunit Singh Narang.
So in terms of the ramp up, I mean for FY27, do you have any visibility of ramping up? So consolidated utilization is around 60% or 50%. So I mean what, what are the internal targets in terms of visibility for FY27 and for FY28 in terms of ramping up consolidated utilization?
Harshil Dalal
Sure. So if you take a two to three year view, you know, we would want the utilizations to increase significantly, especially out of the French facility and the India side. So India should be able to easily make it 2.5x of what it is doing today. As far as the production utilization, production capacity utilization is concerned and as far as the French facility is concerned, it should be a similar kind of number that we will be targeting in the next three years time. The Shanghai facility, you know, we have just started the activities of targeting the pharmaceutical market in China.
So you know that plus the incremental orders coming from the Swiss entity for some of the customers who want to have a preference for China to get their intermediates manufactured, we do expect that the utilization should go up from the current 50% to around 75%. The Swiss entity, what we are trying to do is to focus on getting more and more projects for development. So the target is that in the next five years we should be able to double the development revenue from what it is right now. And that is the reason we are taking extra efforts in getting the customers right at the initial phase of development.
And then we are also targeting customers to, you know, for the molecules which are already in phase three to be added as a second supplier. So there are various efforts that are being taken in order to make sure that we are able to increase the development revenue out of the Swiss entity and increase the commercial revenue out of the India sites.
Gunit Singh Narang.
All right, sir. Bharat, thank you very much. Wish you all the best.
Harshil Dalal
Thank you.
operator
Thank you. The next question comes from Harshit R Neogen Advisors. Please go ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Hello. Yes sir. In the previous con call we have, you have guided approximately 20% EBITDA for a 526 and strong late phase ADC contribution. In Q3 margins dropped to 15%. The company reported a loss. Can you clearly quantify how much of this margin miss was due to mixed timing versus any structural cost increase? And also does the 20% guidance still stand for FY26?
Harshil Dalal
Sure. So yeah. So the target for the full year still stands. So we would be ending up ending the year with anywhere between 19.5 to 20%. So if you take the first nine months we are already at about 19.4%. So we don’t deviate from what we had set out at the beginning of the year. Obviously quarter over quarter in our business it is very difficult to maintain a linearity in the margins all throughout each of the quarters because as we saw in the first half of the year there was a strong portion of the development revenue, most specifically the late phase molecules because of which the cost was extremely low because of which the EBITDA margins were at about 21 odd percent.
But in the second half of the year we do have high amount of commercial supplies that would go out where the margins are a bit lower than the phase three molecules. But overall for the full year, as we had also said in the previous call, the composition of development is going to be higher than commercial. And that is one of the key reasons why from the last year 17.3% we should be ending the year with closer to 20% margin. And I think we stick to that even today as we see a full financial year of 26.
Unidentified Participant
Okay. And sir, one more question. This was on the business side sir. Over the over the past eight to ten years the company has invested heavily in R D Talent, specific capabilities and the plants and all. Yet the asset utilization in ROC remains weak. While when we compare our peers like Laura’s and New Land. So at that point they were very small than us, but they have compounded faster. From the, from your perspective, what has structurally prevented us from converting these capabilities into scale and returns and what is fundamentally different now that gives you confidence that this might change?
Harshil Dalal
Absolutely. So, so basically, you know, if you see the. I mean, there were several factors similar to what I had explained earlier, but one of the key factors was that over the last four, five years, the India side was not performing because if you see financial year 2020, India was doing a revenue of close to about 550 crores with a margin of close to about 40% at an EBITDA level. Now, when that revenue came down, that had an impact on the revenue, but more, more so on the operating margins that we were targeting to achieve in 2024, 2025.
So that had an impact. Now that, you know, we have integrated the organization, we are looking at ramping up the revenues out of the India side. All of the regulatory hurdles are behind us, you know, not just from the edqm, but we also had successful FDA inspection, even from the Japanese pmda. All of the regulatory issues are now behind us. Now what the focus of the businesses is to get more and more orders in order to fill up the India site, because this is the site which is going to give us the highest margins as far as the entire group is concerned.
Plus the site has been upgraded significantly in order to make sure that we are ready to handle this kind of order. The new orders that come in, not just for the short term or the medium term, but also for the long term. So that is the reason, you know, why we decided that if we have to make investments, let’s do it for one, so that we don’t have to worry about these regulatory issues for the next 10, 15, 20 years. So that was the philosophy. So that’s number one. Number two, if you look at it at the Swiss entity, we always had a constraint on the capacity in terms of manufacturing.
So historically, you know, we have always been targeting the small molecules, the niche molecules. And that is also one of the reasons why oncology and technologies like adc, highly potent compounds, you know, those have become a significant portion of our revenue, which in a way is a good thing, because, you know, our people, you know, they’re extremely talented, the scientists that we have. And that is the reason we have been able to crack this kind of complex technologies. Which people are talking about today, which we had mastered 15 years back. So that’s a great advantage to have.
But on the flip side, the higher volume business is something that we had to let go because on one side, you know, we had the regulatory issues in India. The integration between India and Switzerland had not actually played out in the manner that was expected by the previous management, which is now actually playing out. That we have a singular business development organization, a lot of synergies that we see on the operational side. And that gives us the confidence that now are the years where we should be able to reap the benefits of this closure integration.
So I think with these two things coming into to play and actually playing out for us over the next years, we should see a significant amount of ramp up both in terms of revenues as well as margins. And now we also have this additional capability of doing the form fill finish for our customers where we complete the entire loop of services that we can offer to our customers. Right from development of API to manufacturing of the final product where injectables is the delivery form. Which puts us in a very unique position as compared to many of our other peers.
operator
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Ramanuj Chandak. Please go ahead.
Ramanuj Chandak
Hello. Sir. Am I audible?
Harshil Dalal
Yes.
Ramanuj Chandak
So right now, given we have branches at China, India and Europe, what is the difference you see between manufacturing in India and China means? Do you see any structural difference of manufacturing? We do here and there.
Harshil Dalal
Maybe Paulo Stefan, from a manufacturing perspective, if you want to.
Ramanuj Chandak
What is the. Difference in manufacturing ecosystem of India and China?
Stephan Fritschi
Maybe I can start and Paolo can jump in. Then I would differentiate. I would not say what is the difference in manufacturing but what is the market expectation. This is more relevant from a production capabilities. We are quite similar. Of course Shanghai is much smaller than India. They have bigger capacities, bigger site, more people and so on and so forth. But the important thing is what our customers expecting. And there is a diverse expectation. One part of the customer. They say we want to go to Asia. It doesn’t matter if it’s China or India. Some people say everything but China and some people say everything but India.
So this is where our strength is that we can offer whatever the customer expects. From a quality perspective or from scientific approach, we are the same. It’s not a difference. But maybe Paolo, you can share your opinion from your perspective.
Paolo Armanino
Yeah, I agree with you that you know, there are many customers. I would say in the last period we see a complete trend that the customer tended to get out from China. Honestly because of this geopolitical situation. So we see definitely customers that are very, very keen to shift their manufacturing from China to India. India, from my perspective, is a kind of idea scenario worldwide because especially in our case, we are having large capacity and great talent. There is a great thing which in my opinion, India is much, much better than China, which is the language.
Because to write in English and to communicate in English is definitely a big advantage with respect to China. But of course, as Stepan said, there are also customers which want to go to China. But geopolitically wise, today we see customers very keen to come to India and stay to China.
Ramanuj Chandak
Currently, what is the preference of large pharma companies? Where do they want their materials to. Be sourced from India or China? Means on a market level, at general leave, what are companies preferring right now?
Stephan Fritschi
Well, as I said there we see everything also from big farmers. I mean big farmers, they have a worldwide footprint, but they are concerned about this Biosecure Act. Although Carbon emscis and Fishman Carbon emsis are not falling under the Biosecure act, there are still some concerns and that’s why big Pharma have a trend to leave China and place more work in India. But again, it’s not one unique voice. It’s a diverse thing because big pharmas, they have also their subsidiaries in China. So they’re also in a political environment where they need to be cautious as well.
Ramanuj Chandak
Do you see Dishman benefiting from the. Recent two FPO’s that India had, one with Europe and one with USA?
Harshil Dalal
Sorry, were you asking about the trade deal recently?
Ramanuj Chandak
India, as you have seen, India has. Signed FTA with Europe and soon with usa. Also the India benefiting. Do you see this man benefiting in. Any manner means can we bring back production to India?
Harshil Dalal
Well, yes, I mean, well, right now we don’t see any, any. Even before this, James, you know, we were not seeing any impact, any major impact of the FedEx because, you know, most of our shipments, even though the customers are based in the us, most of the shipments were happening to the European region. So from that perspective, you know, we don’t see any positive or any negative impact because of this great deal. But yes, I mean the idea is very clear is to get more and more production into India and also try to fill up the Shanghai site as quickly as possible.
Stephan Fritschi
Maybe I may add, on the pharmaceutical arena and part, I agree there is not much impact because they’re exempted from the tariffs, specifically in the US on the fine chemical part, personally I see a big chance because they are falling on the tariff regimes. But if we have now a free trade agreement between Europe and India, there’s absolutely the chance that we can produce more in India and export it to Europe because then the tariffs are significantly reduced on the fine chemicals, not pharmaceuticals, fine chemicals.
Ramanuj Chandak
That’s it from me. Thank you, sir.
operator
Thank you. Next question comes from the line of Vivian Joshi. Please go ahead.
Vivian Joshi
Yeah. Am I audible, sir? Yes, We are a mature company and still we go from red to green quarter wise quarter. So animals, which you’ll see is like a, or is it just like part of the business or there is a period where we can see like consistent profitability. I mean structurally. Can you just explain, like are we still like in a growth phase or we are in the investment phase or we are a mature pharma company? I’m just finding it a little difficult to understand. Thanks a lot and all the best.
Paolo Armanino
Sorry, you were not that audible, but I, I just to rephrase your question and you can correct me if that’s right reasoning, but your question was because, I mean, why do we have these fluctuations in the margin as far as the quarterly results are concerned?
Vivian Joshi
Yeah, more it was like, like for a mature company, shouldn’t we be consistently profitable? If not like, what are the triggers which will make us consistently profit? That’s the main ide.
Paolo Armanino
Well, I would say the, the nature of our business, you know, is such that it is, it is very difficult to have a linearity in the margins every quarter because it all depends upon whether, I mean, what, what is the composition of revenue that is driving the margins in that particular quarter. So, so the right way to look at our business will be more on a yearly basis, if not on a two yearly basis, but at least on a yearly basis we would have a visibility on what the revenue numbers could look like, on what the market could look like for the full financial year quarterly.
It might just depend upon what work has been done in that particular quarter. Whether it is more of the late phase development versus only phase versus commercial on the CDMO side and on the marketable molecules, whether it’s more of the vitamin D analogs or cholesterol. Because this is a completely B2B business, so much of this is dependent upon also when the customer wants the material to be supplied. You know, like we had in this last quarter where they wanted it in January versus in December because of the holidays. So there are these factors which might influence the quarterly margins, all the revenue, but from a full year perspective, I think more or less we should be in line with what we state at the beginning of the year.
operator
Thank you. Next question comes from the line of Ashtanha. Please go ahead.
Yash Tanna
Yeah, so my question is again on the ADC drug that we supply. So it’s the molecule is, you know, blockbuster product with, you know, significant sales and sales. But our revenue contribution is very minuscule. If we compare it to the overall scheme of things, even with the growing number that we alluded to my previous question, the share seems to be significantly lower. So just trying to understand why our share of value is so limited despite the scale of the molecule. Is it just because we don’t do antibody? And that is one of the biggest parts in the value chain.
And you know, related question to that is with our partnership with Salonic for antibodies, can we compete in this space and can we manufacture the complete ADC in house? And because what we understand is that the innovators typically like to keep bioconjugation in house. So just some thoughts on that.
Harshil Dalal
Sure. So on the first question, so if you see last year the customer did close to about, I think about 4 billion of revenue from this particular molecule. And right now there are two approved suppliers. One is ourselves and second is another Swiss based CDMO company. Yeah, one of the suppliers of. Correct. So, so we being the primary supplier, I mean if you talk about ADC, that would be close to about say maybe 1.5% at max of the, of the final product price that the customer is realizing. So after 4 billion, you know, if you take 1.5%, that’s roughly about 60 million and then if you take out the antibody component, which could be close to about 20, 25 million, you know, then we are left with roughly about 35 odd million.
And of that roughly about 60% is what is supplied by us and 40% by the other CDMO company. Plus we also supply for the other indications which are in the pipeline and that’s how the entire revenue of 30 million is more or less made up of. So I would say as, as the revenues of the end customer keeps on growing, you know, this would be more or less the share that can be computed as far as our contribution to the overall revenue is concerned. Because the kind of. So you know, the ADC as such is not more than one and a half percent at max of the final product type.
Yash Tanna
So the linker that you’re talking about is not more than one and a half percent of the end sales.
Harshil Dalal
The linker and the payload.
Yash Tanna
Link. And the payload.
Harshil Dalal
The link of payload. Yeah, that put together.
Yash Tanna
Got it. Got it. So that’s helpful
Harshil Dalal
and sorry, what was your second question?
Yash Tanna
It was related to the tie up with Celonic. We did the. So now. Yeah.
Harshil Dalal
Yeah, no, no, I got your question. So with this partnership with Salonic we are able to offer the end to end solution to the customer including the antibodies, the conjugation, the payload and the linker. So that is the benefit of having this partnership with Celonic where even the customers who would be approaching Celonic, they could be potential customers for us as the suppliers of the linker, payload and the conjugation. So that is where we are seeing increasing amount of inquiries. We have also given out RFPs to Southern customers with this entire proposition and we see significant benefits because now we are able to do the end to end for the customer, including the form fill finish out of the French facility if the customer decides that.
Or maybe Stephanie, if you want to add something on this partnership.
Stephan Fritschi
No, exactly. That’s the reason why we entered into this partnership. So it’s twofold. A, we can offer this end to end solution where it’s a simplified process for the customer. But also secondly, on the sales and marketing front, there are customers dealing only with Celonic in that specific case and we get into the picture. So there are new customers for us because so far the customer was kind of lost and now with us in the picture he can come to us with the link of payload and the congregation request. And of course on the other side for Celonic it’s beneficial because we have some customers have no contact with antibody development.
So that’s the reason why we say it’s a win, win, win situation.
Yash Tanna
Have we already seen some interest from maybe small biotech customers or Celonics customers for this end to end capability?
Stephan Fritschi
Yes, this is what I mentioned before or meant when I said there is an increased interest. They’re mainly small biotechs which develop their own antibody with the support of Salonic. But at the same time they need somebody to produce the link of payload and this, we are this company.
Yash Tanna
Got it. So that’s very interesting. My final question is relating to the debt side. So what is the current debt on books and how are we thinking on the debt front, let’s say for the next one to two years. Are we looking to pare it down and if you can give some numbers around it.
Harshil Dalal
Sure. So basically our net debt or a large portion of our debt is denominated in Swiss franc and that would be the right way to look at our debt number. So we are at close to about 150 odd million Swiss franc of net debt. What we plan to do over the next year, years would be to pare down the debt as far as the India side is concerned because you know, that is the debt which is coming at a higher cost as compared to the debt which we have at the Swiss entity. So the cost differential is huge, almost about 7% between the India debt and the Swiss debt.
So ideally speaking we would want to utilize the cheaper debt in Switzerland to pay off the debt in India. But, but technically that is not possible. So we are looking at, apart from the operational cash flows, the free cash flows that we generate to pay down the rupee debt in India. So that’s the prime target of the free cash flow.
Yash Tanna
Sorry sir, just to clarify, how much is the India debt and by how much are we planning to pare it down?
Harshil Dalal
So India debt is today roughly about 750 crores. So you know, ideally speaking we would want to make the India debt zero.
Yash Tanna
In the next two years time frame.
Harshil Dalal
I would say with the cash flow generations, we should be able to do it over the next three years time.
Yash Tanna
Got it. And are we looking to raise any other source of funds for this or will this primarily be from internal accruals?
Harshil Dalal
I think the internal accruals would be the primary thing. Apart from that, you know, we might do a fundraise but obviously at the right valuation and taking into account other factors as well. But you know, right now we are just considering the operational cash flow.
Yash Tanna
All right, got it. Thanks and best of.
Harshil Dalal
Thank you.
operator
Thank you. Due to time constraints, that was the last question for the day. Now I hand over the floor to Mr. Stephen Fretchi for his closing comments.
Stephan Fritschi
Yeah, thank you very much. Thank you to everybody for your interest in dysmon, carpentry and amsis. As we could see from the discussion, the business is quite lively and very diverse and we are very well positioned to serve the market. And we are optimistic and positive to tackle this and to bring great results in the future as well. So thank you again and have a nice day. Thank you, Tom.
Paolo Armanino
Thank you.
operator
Ladies and gentlemen, this concludes your conference for today. Thank you for your participation and for using Doozaba’s conference call service. May I disconnect your lines now? Thank you and have a pleasant evening.