Computer Age Management Services Ltd (NSE: CAMS) Q3 2026 Earnings Call dated Jan. 23, 2026
Corporate Participants:
Nikunj Seth — Investor Relations
Anuj Kumar — Managing Director
Ram Charan Sesharaman — Chief Financial Officer
Analysts:
Supratim Datta — Analyst
Devesh Agarwal — Analyst
Dipanjan Ghosh — Analyst
Abhijeet — Analyst
Sanketh — Analyst
Sucrit D. Patil — Analyst
Prayesh Jain — Analyst
Presentation:
operator
Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to Computer age Management Services Q3 FY26 earning conference call. As a reminder, all participants lines will be in the listen only mode and there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. Should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing Star then zero on your touchstone phone. Please note that this conference is being recorded. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Nikpunch Seth. Thank you. And over to you sir.
Nikunj Seth — Investor Relations
Thank you. Hina. Good morning everyone. Welcome to Q3 and 9 months FY26 earnings conference call of Computer Age Management Services Ltd. From the management today we. Have with us Mr. Anuj Kumar, MD. And CEO Mr. Ram Charan, CFO and Mr. Anish Sahlani, head Investor Relations. Before we proceed to the opening remarks. I would like to give a small. Disclaimer that this conference may contain certain forward looking statements about the company which are based on beliefs, opinions and expectations. Of the company as on date. These statements are not guarantees of future performance and involve risk and uncertainties which. Are difficult to predict. A detailed disclaimer has been published in the investor presentation. Now I would hand over the conference to Mr. Ranuj Kumar. Thank you. And over to you sir.
Anuj Kumar — Managing Director
Good morning everyone. Thank you, Nikunj. I welcome all the participants to this 3Q earnings call of CAMs. Sticking to our usual format, we will go through parts of the deck and we’ll do that in about 20 minutes to have enough time to take your questions. As you would have seen yesterday when we published the results, it’s been a very solid quarter for cams. And why do I say that? You know that exactly a year back In January of 25 we had spoken about the price reset. That price reset came in 4Q of last year and 1Q of this year.
So the comparison, the year on year comparison is still with a large base. This is perhaps the last quarter in which we will have a comparison to the larger base. While the current year’s revenue has taken the price adjustment. But in that context, this was a remarkable quarter. Our enterprise revenue grew 5.5% year on year. And like I said, the year on year number for another quarter will not look like it’s a double digit number. It will continue looking single digit. But the Q and Q revenue growth was 3.6% which was a very solid growth.
Non MF on a quarter to quarter basis over last year grew over 24%. You know that our stated endeavor has been to grow this over 20%. So this was a strong quarter absolute EBITDA, rupee EBITDA climbed to the highest ever. You will recollect that the highest ever absolute EBITDA was in the range of 173 crore in 3Q of last year. So exactly a year after that we are at 179 crore. Do keep in mind that this takes into account the labor code adjustment. Largely graduate related. Some of the other notifications A will not be so impactful and will be done when they’re announced.
But that cost of about 2.5 to 3 crores has been absorbed in the base. So the absolute rupee EBITDA is remarkable. What is also remarkable is that percentage profit after the labor code adjustment, every other growth cost that we have incurred is now at 46%. You will remember that this was 43 and some change about 4/4 3/4 back. So in these 3/4 1Q of this year, 2Q this year and 3Q has climbed back from about 43 and a half to 46. Which I think is a remarkable vindication of the overall productivity drive and efficiency that we’ve been able to built into the system.
Specifically on MF our AUM crossed 55 lakh crore. The market share number remains intact at 68. The year on year growth was 18%. Now in most years you know that AUM growth was about 20% if you take the last 10 year CAGR and that 20% used to be composed of about 12 to 13% of mark to market gains, about 7 to 8% of net sales. This 18% number has happened despite the fact that mark to market gains are lower. So that just is a good indication of the resilience of the system and of the faith that the Indian common investor has in the delivery made by the mutual fund industry.
Within this equity assets a very very handsome number crossed 30 lakh crore for US market share which about five years back this number used to be about 60%. You’ve been watching this number, so have I. Is crept up to 66.41 largely in response to the expansion of equity as an asset class within the overall MF assets. But you cannot deny the share gain part of it. The 60 to 66 is exactly a share gain and like the chart says 70 basis points up year on year equity net sales at 84,000 crore. Although you know that in a great quarter this number is almost like 1.25 to 1.5 lakh crore.
To that extent a slightly smaller number. But what I’m very happy about is the market share of 71% which is almost a percent up compared year on year. You know this is the most intensely operative from an operations perspective and the most remunerative part of our entire aumx. New SIP registrations which have been in the range of 1.2 to 1.3 crore every quarter stayed at 1.6 crore. Grew 18% significantly ahead of industry growth. And I think just the fact that some of the new AMC launches as well as the cam’s base clientele has performed very well in this area.
SIP collections grew to almost 18,000 19,000 crore a month. So 55,000 56,000 crore in the quarter. Again a handsome number growing 20% year on year. And this again is great vindication of the attitude of the Indian investor and his faith in the industry. Live SIPs as account expanded 8% year on year. 65.2% market share unique investors you can see grew ahead of industry. Carnelian Asset Management came in as a new AMC client. SIF is beginning to become a very popular. Well it’s too early for me to say very popular but I would say interesting product class where a lot of AMCs want to participate.
As of today we have SBI, Tata, both launched in the past quarter, quarter gone by and then in the month of January we’ve had ICICI at Bandhan launch. But you will see a lot more launches. And I think this is net accretive to the stack of the AMCs because this was supposed to bring in money from a little more risk taking investor class. An investor class which was doing F and O and day trading kind of stuff for them to come into this asset class. It’s a broader product offering. So it’s great news for us.
We already 2,400 crore and with four AMC’s live Giftcity retail fund launches, Tata MF launched the first retail inbound fund. This was live. PPFS and DSP had launched the outbound funds. This interest we believe will continue to grow over a period of time. Early days yet. But the interest of the domestic investor in participating in overseas offerings and the interest of the overseas investors to find a reasonable way to come in through Gift City. I think they will be the two props on which this entire offering will be built. So very happy that during the year as we have said earlier, we took six AMCs live, we took a couple of SIFs live, we expanded the GiftCity offering and we did many other things.
I’ll just come to that. But from an activity and milestone perspective a fairly productive quarter. And from a financial result perspective a Very solid quarter move to the next. On the non MF side the revenue contribution has expanded to 14.5%. We had said almost about nine months back that we were in the purpose of a business transfer of the KRA business of NSE into cams. This process got concluded. Now the business is with Cahms live with us. Great integration adds more than a million pounds to our overall kitty and uniquely positions us as the second largest kra.
The gap between the second and third therefore has widened Camps Kra. You know that the account opening momentum in capital markets has been slow. While in mutual funds the folio expansion remains intact. But in the broader capital markets the depository and broking account momentum has been slower. Despite that CAMS KRA grew revenue both on a year to year basis for the quarter as well as in sequential quarters. CAMS pay was a great performer. I think if you look at the base just their base business grew 24% for the quarter over the past year. If you add to this the PG business which is just about a year in the making that added the balanced part of the growth.
So it’s good to see a new product gain acceptance faster than what you normally see. So that 59% is a sum of A and B A is the base business which grew 24%. The balance of the PG business alternatives grew 16% in revenue year on year. AUM now exceeds 3 lakh crore. The 50% of the outsourced market. That milestone remains intact. I certainly want to call out that while Wellserve or the digital onboarding platform is not a large revenue accretive revenue momentum business but it’s a very good client hook for us. 250 mandates almost 200 plus live and we will continue.
And it’s a vision to scale up to 500 and even beyond that the market has the ability to absorb all of that. Camps rep grew revenue in the third quarter, 15% added. You can see the numbers we crossed. Overall 1 crore EIA is about 1.3 crore policies market share at 40%. Again I would say that the true momentum of this business, the true impact of what BIMA Central can do, the true impact of dematting insurance. We are still scratching the surface LIC which had agreed to come in into dematting of new issuance of policies that was declared in March, April last year.
They are near life, they have commenced. But I think the true momentum of that and the rest of the market expanding their acceptance is a slower process but will happen. And I think, I think we are very very hopeful of continuing to scale these things. Bima Central as a unique offering for managing your insurance portfolio has continued to get awarded, recognized in multiple forums. You’ve seen some of that in our website, you’ve seen some of that in the various press conferences, releases, our LinkedIn posts, etc. So very happy that from a product development culture that you know the moment that we started almost five, six years back to deeply build a product and a tinkering culture inside the company to have multiple offerings.
Obviously we don’t want a dozen because you can’t focus on a dozen, but to have maybe four or five core offerings which will drive growth. I think this is a nice pointer towards the future on the DPDP act implementation where there are various components of what a good offering should look like. But from a consenting perspective, think360 has launched Consent Pro. You would have seen some PR on this and we’re expecting this to be a revenue business in the coming quarters. So like I said overall coming out of whatever happened during the year, a slow year for capital markets, some backdrop of price readjustment, some backdrop of slowing down of capital market new account openings, etc.
In the light of all that, I think both from a growth and efficiency margin and revenue growth perspective, a very solid quarter. I will pause here and hand over to Ramcharan and then we will come back to the Q and A then.
Ram Charan Sesharaman — Chief Financial Officer
Thank you Anuj. I’ll just summarize the numbers in a few minutes. As Anuj said it was a very solid quarter in terms of AUM. Quarter on quarter the AUM grew around 5.3% and as we had kind of indicated and guided over the earlier quarters the yield impact of the one time reset, the tail impact was there in last quarter and this quarter we said that we back to the original equation in terms of asset to asset fee growth. Happy to say that the asset based revenue has also grown around 3.8% quarter on quarter which is kind of almost back to the back to the same kind of equation that we are used to in the past yields also depletion was much better than what was guided.
It was less than 1.5% quarter on quarter. So from that perspective we are back to steady state. From a yield perspective which was the bigger concern over the last nine months because of the yield reset. Overall the revenue grew around 3.6% quarter on quarter and 5 point percent year on year. The MF revenue grew on the back of the asset growth as well as the stable yields to 3.3% quarter on quarter and the non mutual fund revenue which was almost 5% quarter on quarter and 24 plus percent almost 25% year on year. As you recollect that we have generally have a target of growing more than 20% in the non mutual fund revenue.
So barring the first quarter where there was little subdued we have kind of reached this number and confident that going forward this 20 plus percentage of non mutual fund business will happen. This is all on the back of a great business growth in Camspay and their card offerings. But across the board there has been increase in the businesses. AIF has increased, REP has increased and so has KR even in a tough market. So the non mutual fund back on track. Mutual fund yields absolutely back on track. And from a profit perspective we posted strong earnings.
Our EBITDA which was as you may recollect went up to 43% a few quarters back came to 44. Now we set 4046 percentage and that is kind of almost 140bps increase on a quarter on quarter basis. So we are again firmly back on the track of what we have said in terms of margins 45% plus and we continue to have a good cost control backed by automation productivity increases which is keeping the cost line increase subdued. We had indicated at the beginning of the year that if we are increasing cost by less than 11% I think that’s the target and we are well on target to have the cost increase to be 10% on a year on year basis.
So on the back of good cost control, stable yields, good growth in non mutual fund businesses we have posted strong earnings for the quarter at 46 percentage. This again as Anuj said I would like to reiterate that as required under our institute guidelines we have taken one time charge of the labor code revamp which is around 3 crores, 2.8 crores as a part service cost in our P and L. So in spite of that we are able to post very strong numbers on a quarterly basis. The board has declared a dividend of 3.5 rupees and so we keeping up with our dividend declaration policy of 55% of profits being distributed and our return on capital and continues to be very impressive at close to 40 percentage.
There are some amount of, there is some amount of, you know decline in the non asset based revenue you would have seen on a year on year basis. But as we continue to indicate the non asset based revenue is not driven by any, not easily driven by transactions or any AEM growth. There are four or five components to it. One of the major component of that is the out of pocket expenses and also there is a component of the new no. 4 fees this quarter when compared to the last year. There was a decline in the NFO launches when compared to last quarter and there was also a decline in the out of pocket expenses.
The out of pocket expenses is a revenue line item and a cost line item. So it is not profit accretive and hence the decline in the non asset based revenue does not impact the profitability. So this is a broad summary of what we’ve seen from a revenue and cost perspective and EBITDA margins. I now hand it over to the moderator and we can open it for Q and A.
Questions and Answers:
operator
Thank you very much. We will now begin the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press Star and one on their Touchstone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue you may press Star and two participants are requested to use handset while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we will wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. The first question is from the line of Supratim Dutta from Jefferies. Please go ahead.
Supratim Datta
Thanks for the opportunity. I have three sets of questions. Firstly, I wanted to understand if you know the loss of 5 basis point exit load for mutual funds impact you. You have had one round of renegotiation of contracts last year, but would this result in another round of renegotiation of contracts and you know, what kind of impact could we expect from that and over what period? That would be the first one. Secondly, we wanted to understand how is the margins in the non MF business currently tracking and what kind of operating lever are we able to get there.
Lastly, you know on the payment aggregator and the payment gateway business there has been, you know, strong growth there. However the base business has only grown by around 25% and when I look at, you know, the other businesses as well, the growth has been somewhere around, you know, 17, 18% in most businesses. Given this smaller scale. Just wanted to understand what would result in these businesses being able to grow faster as compared to the current run rate. Those are my three questions.
Anuj Kumar
Sure, thanks. I’ll try to take this in order on the AMCs and their tars. Sorry, I’m just continuing to hear.
Ram Charan Sesharaman
There is a bit of background at your end.
operator
Yes, Supreme. Maybe there is an.
Anuj Kumar
Okay, all right. Yeah, this is a lot better. So on the overall TR adjustment you I’m sure have been tracking this closely that the net dispensation being proposed is of marginal impact, not a humongous impact on the There are some benefits, there are many puts and takes but I think there are some benefits on the GST side and then there could be some dent in what they can charge because of the exit load going away. When you take these together we believe that most of our clientele will not be impacted from any negative impact perspective.
Some of the large clients may be impacted. Like you know that for people who run PNLs total TR regimes of 140, 150bps at the largest coming to maybe 190 200bps for these smaller EMCs this will be a small reset to make. Now will they come to us for any conversation etc. We don’t have any indication right now that all of that will happen. We’ve always stated that the amount of value we sell for the price we charge a is very large and secondly it continues to scale every year. So we believe that we have full justification to retain the prices right now.
I think we should just wait for any conversation to happen first of all for this final regime to settle down if it settles down in the first quarter of next year and then for any conversation to happen. Even if conversations happen, we do not believe that this will be of a very large impact to us. Like like we have said in the past the impact could be. I mean the boundaries of the impact could be 20, 25 crores overall for camps. But we will wait and see. I don’t want to jump into conjecturing on numbers and making estimates till we have a very clear view of what the impact is and what they are planning to do with this.
That’s part one of your question on the non MF business. The only way I would like to explain this to you I’ll split the answer in a few parts. One businesses which are purely platform so CampSkri and Campsrep are two great examples of fully platform businesses. They have the ability to make ebitda in the 30 to 40% range. CAMS KRA is already there which means it makes an EBITDA in that range. From there the smallest ones are loss making because it takes a revenue line of about anywhere between let’s say 12 to 15 crore rupees of revenue line for these businesses to absorb cost.
They all have a component of fixed cost. So some of them are loss making which still are not at break even. Insurance is near breakeven but not at breakeven. Pension is loss making, account aggregator is loss making. So overall it’s Our aspiration to move this entire portfolio of non MF. It will not go to 40 to 50% EBITDA easily. That will come after maybe five, six, seven years. But in the next couple of years it’s our attempt to drive this to about 25 to 30% EBITDA. We believe that is possible. This business now has a base of about 230, 240 crore.
It’s growing at the rate of what, 40 to 50 crore a year. And I think the objective of the management team is, is to move a large part of this incremental revenue into the bottom line. And because of the platform nature of most of these businesses, like I said, REP and KRA are two great examples. Payment is also a very, very relevant example of a platform business. So we are very hopeful of driving that internal target to drive them to 25 to 30% EBITDA. The third part of your question was that in Camps pay, what’s happening? What is the growth trajectory? As you know that from a portfolio perspective we’ve stated that non MF should grow 20% plus.
Within that you will remember that we had two breakaway years when KRA grew very fast. They almost doubled themselves in three years. There was a time when AIF grew very fast. And I think in the last two years we’ve seen Camps pay grow very fast. Which means camp’s pay used to be under 30 crore business. Two years back they scale from 30 to 50, 50 to close to 70 this year we see them growing from 70 to 100 next year. Some of this is just the base consumers buying more which is one way to grow.
And I think payment gateway was a new part of the offering. And when we grow obviously we’ll have to keep doing all of these things. Just base clientele growing is very, very organic and is just dependent upon what the market buys. So we want to do both things in the base. We want to grab share in the new offering. We want to have those strategic offerings which will lead to revenue growth. I think that team has been able to do both of these. The interesting part is that in the next four to five years we are sure the way things are going that this non MF will be at least a 500 crore book for us in about five years if it continues to grow 40 to 50 crore a year.
And at that level at about the 30% EBITDA, it should be, let’s say 125 to 150 crore EBITDA range business. It’s heading that way. It’s heading that way. And therefore we are very very hopeful that we’ll be able to deliver all of this. Those are broadly my answers to your questions. If there’s any follow on you can let us know.
Supratim Datta
Yeah. Just one thing. On the non MF business, what is the current margin run rate and on the cam space I just wanted to understand what is the mix of non MF clients and MF clients. Thank you. That’s about it. Thank you.
Ram Charan Sesharaman
The current margins, we’ve seen some improvements happening with the quarters. You know a few years back we were sub 10 percentage. That’s the current quarter. They are upwards of 13% EBITDA as a bucket and as I just like to reiterate what Anu said in terms of the bucket is mixed. It’s got profit making businesses and it’s got also businesses that are not making profits. So but all put together they are kind of at a 13 plus percentage EBITDA for the quarter. In terms of cams pay. Earlier it was entirely dependent on mutual funds and now the dependence on mutual or the mutual fund revenue is less than 50% of the overall.
Supratim Datta
Thank you. Thank you.
operator
Thank you. A reminder, anyone who wishes to ask a question may press Star and one on their touchstone telephone. The next question comes from the line of Devesh Agarwal from IIFL Capital. Please go ahead.
Devesh Agarwal
Good morning everyone and thank you for the opportunity. Sir, my first question would be on the MF yield. Could you share if there are any major AMCs which are coming up for renewal over the next 18 months.
Ram Charan Sesharaman
So divesh. Hi. So as we have indicated in the past there are no major AMCs that are coming up for a renewal in the current financial the upcoming financial year. There are a few mid sized AMCs who will come which are kind of due in the part of the year. But there are no major AMCs in the top five who are coming up for renewal in the current financial year. And that’s why in the six months back we indicated they’re looking at a broadly stable yield regime for the next 18 months. So. Well, every year there will be some AMC that come for none of them are going to be the bigger AMCs that we had a re association just a year or two back.
Devesh Agarwal
Right sir. And so secondly you recently won the. Mandate for Carnelian mutual fund. Could you just talk about how the competitive intensity is around the new. Around the basically for the winning the new mandates. How has been the competitive intensity? Is it coming down or is it still the same?
Anuj Kumar
Divesh. The competitive intensity is still the same. You know that in 24, most of the mandates came to us after that. I think we’ve made it very clear to the marketplace that we are selling value, we are selling premium value. A large part of the market which is inclined to pay that pay for that will obviously come to us. Carnelian is one example. There are some bids where price is perhaps the metric. And any business you know, there are bids where price is perhaps a metric. You will not find us chasing those deals. I think the operating part of the argument is that we want to sustain and expand market share and AUM and want to sustain and expand market share in the most profitable and the most revenue parts of the overall stack.
I think we’ve been able to successfully do that. Last calendar year, you know that we took six asset managers live, which is a record for camps starting from angel broking to Unified Geo Blackrock Choice, Taurus, which was a migration, and then C Bank, which is our only Sri Lanka client. All of these went live. So I think from a operating, sustenance and resilience perspective, that’s great news. But again, from a competitive intensity, I think we will let competition do whatever they choose is best for them. But focusing on value and premium value to the customers I think remains our endeavor and that is the way we will continue going.
Devesh Agarwal
Right, Anil and what is the target for this year? How many agencies are we looking to take live?
Anuj Kumar
We now have four which are one which are yet not live. So those four have to go live in financial year 26. I’m not counting the wins of 26. Typically it takes sometimes six to seven months at least and sometimes it takes about a year. So I think the four which we are carrying forward from the last year into this year and maybe the two or three which we might win from now to June. So I will not be surprised if we take another five to six live this year.
Devesh Agarwal
And any particular drag that you see on margins because of this, 10 to 12AMCs which have gone live last year and this year combined for FY27 margins.
Anuj Kumar
Actually, I will just talk about a few metrics which we haven’t really positioned yet because still we are 100% sure if we want to expose it to all of you guys, we will not do it. I think we as a team done a fantastic job on revenue per headcount and on overall headcount intensity of the business. If you clinically see headcount, headcount has remained four flat in calendar 25, which means the headcount we entered with and the headcount we’re exiting with is exactly the same. This is despite significantly expanded count of everything. So the automation and productivity benefits.
We’ve just stated it as a line. I can convert into figures for you in a separate session. We didn’t want to position it too hard right now. I think that’s been a great journey. All these six AMCs, all the people who are employed there is all part of the base now is all part of the base this year. Divesh. The way we see the overall technology interventions and the new platform capabilities, although it will be module by module, step by step, we are not going to do anything in one stroke. I expect these efficiencies to continue growing.
So you will see that headcount expansion will be very muted. Revenue by headcount will be very large. I mean the expansion will be large and therefore all the cost and headcount related to taking new MCs live will remain in the base and will be managed well within the base.
Ram Charan Sesharaman
Just like to add one thing is Devesh, as you know the nature of the business is that the incremental cost will be mainly the manpower. And this is true of every new amc, which is the initial part of ramping up. There will be some addition to the manpower but we just made it so efficient that you know the platform is catering to every new customer. Right. So there will be some amount of customization but the major cost is only the 10, 15 people that you’ll have to recruit additionally for that or in terms of transfer internally in case there is product improvements in other units.
So it’s not a significant, significant drag on the margins. If anything, when the revenue starts coming on these, when their AEMs start ramping up, it would be a positive on the margins.
Devesh Agarwal
Right sir. And sir, one final one. The cloud implementation that we were trying to do for our mutual fanatic operations. Any update on that? Where are we in that journey?
Anuj Kumar
So on that journey there are very exciting developments on overall. I just spent two minutes on this on the form data entry part which is the AI based data extraction. I think we’ve done very well and we are moving a part of the payload. You typically have a maker and a checker in every process. We are moving part of the maker payload completely into the platform. It is underway as we speak. So you will see that happen completely in Jan. Feb. March on the compliance implementation. You would have seen the press releases, etc. On Camps Lens where we have taken a lot of the compliance payload and compliance payload is basically reading of circulars and documents issued by regulators, interpreting them, converting them into quizzes and tests into FAQs etc.
That product is completely ready. We announced this sometime in November. It is being used internally. We’ll open it for the marketplace. And again this is built as a small language model on top of an existing LLM. So that’s production ready. Now our our data lake and our data warehouse where we are moving things from the on Prem Oracle to the Google Cloud, Alloy and BigQuery kind of setup that is underway too. That may not happen by March. That may happen in April, May, but that part will happen. And then there are several other exciting things.
We had started building out a full module of transaction acceptance. That module will be also live or ready to go live in about April, May. So there are multiple things firing as I speak. There is a large team of engineers and of course people. The SMEs from our base business were involved with this. So I am quite happy. It is a very humongous program. It has multiple people, cultural partner, technology dimensions. It involves work that we have not done in the past ever and rearchitecting platforms. You know, it takes companies very long. We chose to go on a module by module approach.
So that part is coming out very well. We will also cover this in more detail in the analyst meet sometime in February.
Devesh Agarwal
Right sir. Perfect. Thank you so much and all the very best. Thank you.
operator
Thank you. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star N1 on their touchstone telephone. The next question comes from the line of Deepanjan Ghosh from Citi. Please go ahead.
Dipanjan Ghosh
Hi sir, good morning. So a few questions from my side. First, on the KRA business, do you see any sort of pricing regime change over the next few years? That was the first question. Second, at the start of the call you mentioned Some number around 20 to 25 crore Possible impact due to the mutual fund service. Firstly, did I understand it correctly? And second, you know, how do you arrive at this number and if you can kind of shade some color on that. And the third question is on the payments business, obviously I mean that has been going at a very very good run rate.
Just wanted to understand in terms of new business horizons on the non mutual fund side, is there either any inorganic activity or new cohorts where you would like to kind of penetrate into.
Anuj Kumar
Sure, the Panjan. So I’ll take your questions in order. On the KRA business you have seen that there’s been a din in the market. Not a real din, but maybe a partial din that onboarding costs are high in the industry. Now for specific use cases and instances like the choty sip, et cetera, we had made sure that we offer to the industry because we eat of the same plate. We will never be predatory pricing technique people. We had offered a fairly, I mean rates which are amenable to the scale and size of that business. For everything else, I think the rates across the market have been, have been pretty stable.
Is there a conversation with the industry that these prices will go down? You are reading the same statements that I am reading so obviously I will not say no that this topic does not exist. The topic exists. Is that kind of an in the face topic and do I have to deal with it today? We will see. We will see. I think from a regulatory perspective the attempt always has been to make access easier and to sell things cheaper and cheaper. I think from a KRA perspective for smaller formats, for these smaller SIPs, et cetera, very, very friendly rates already exist.
So will this conversation which way this will head? We will see and we are watching it closely. On your point number two, I think this math hasn’t been done by me. This math has been done by you guys. I’ve read it and I’m not either publicly endorsing it or denying. But the way this math kind of gets done is, and I don’t want to make it too complicated on the phone, that there is a marginally positive part on some AMC that depends upon what PR you charge and what is the percentage split between your management fee and your expenses.
But for some, the GST advantages offset the decretion part and for some the exit load offsets the GST expansion, the GST advantage. So I think the way this math was done was, you know, half fraction, potential fraction. People computed and said that this is the sigma of all the potential contractions that can happen. We’ve read the math. We will see what conversations happen. Our belief has always been that we deliver humongous, sustained and expanding value to our clients from a regulatory controls product development perspective. Like I said, just taking SIS live and the Gibbsity offerings live has been very, very intense for us.
But we just charge base rates. Our clients are very appreciative of these things. So the number is kind of an arithmetical clinical number. We will see what happens and we are watching the situation closely. Thirdly, on the PAPG part, I think what you asked is a very relevant question. We have, like I said, we had two or three years of breakaway KRA revenue growth. We’ve had sustained AIF growth and we’ve had about three years of breakaway PAPG growth. Now the question is a valid question. It’s a large market. If I take all payment enterprises and do a sigma of the revenue that is certainly 10,000 crore or more, are assets available? The answer is yes.
However, it is not seen as a very profitable business at scale. It’s not seen as a very profitable business. The UPI part which is still not charged and there are no exact signs on when that will become chargeable. So while the stack in terms of offering swizzles towards UPI but UPI is not chargeable isn’t a great sign that investors want to see. So right now we will not do. Although we looked at assets closely, we always continue to look at them. I think we believe that this is a part of our offering which we want to scale to an extent.
Let’s say if we get to about 90 to 100 crore next year and maybe about 120 crore the year after, we will pause and see what we want to do. The profitability metric is important. So right now I think it’s unlikely that we will jump in and say some asset is, you know, the owners are selling. Therefore we want to buy in the area of payments till we believe that this will align to the, you know, 30% or more EBITDA margins that we aspire to achieve from it.
Dipanjan Ghosh
But just if I can squeeze in one small question on the mutual fund side of the business. Are there any asset managers where the renegotiation or the pricing repricing kind of happens on an annual basis or everything is more like a two, three, five year contract?
Ram Charan Sesharaman
Annual basis is not something that happens. It’s generally three. The punch in sometimes two and a half, two if there is some expectation of an event happening in the next couple of years. But I think the average, you should take it as a three year period annual generally doesn’t happen.
Dipanjan Ghosh
Got it. Thank you and all the best.
operator
Thank you. A reminder, anyone who wishes to ask a question may press star and one on their touch tone telephone. The next question comes from the line of Abhijit from Kotak securities. Please go ahead.
Abhijeet
Good morning everyone. My first question was on the growth visibility. Revenue growth visibility on the non mutual fund business. Now I recall you know that number being closer to 25% but there was a comment earlier that you know, 20% is the number that looks more comfortable now. So just wanted to you know, double click on that first. The second question was that you know the comment on cloud implementation is useful and how do we See that along with, you know, whatever is your best judgment on what will happen to revenue yields and how does that, you know, translate into EBITDA margins going forward? Do we still have enough scope to extract, you know, margins given these implementations?
Ram Charan Sesharaman
Thank you Abhijit on the non mutual fund growth, there’s two parts to it. Yes, the target is at 25% growth. I don’t think we are looking at that but I know you had a very subdued first quarter number in terms of non mutual fund growth. So I think what we are saying is we will get to that place but for the year we have again record in the last couple of quarters to get it close to 25% and that is the long term aim to get 20%. But realistically I think given that the first quarter was where it was, I think to expect in the near term at 20% cumulative growth is I think realistic.
But however, I think on a long term basis, even on a medium term basis, we are aspiring and we are confident of getting a 25% growth. I think what we are talking about is near a year from one year time frame from now where you should look at between 20 and 25% on the cloud implementation. I think Anuj will
Anuj Kumar
so Abhijit on. The cloud implementation I think the only thing I will refer to is that in the last 10 years and let this register in the last 10 years if I take out other business build outs but I see only MF we’ve engineered the entire expansion with almost constant headcount. Headcount wouldn’t have grown 5% while assets are 5x transactions are over 5x storage requirements, record keeping requirements, reconciliation, complaints, all of those numbers have grown. But we’ve kept the headcount constant and therefore automation in the base in general has been a very remarkable success story. You can go back and check even in the process industry if they’ve been able to do this and if there are companies which have done that.
And I’m talking of a 2016-2025 time period. However, this is still working on the old platform. We know that there are humongous benefits to be gained if we move platforms. Moving platforms is a painful process because we don’t want to buy anything. We build everything ourselves because that IP is what I sell for value that you see in the P and L. So we are building it now. I’ll just give you an example. 300 crore emails are sent by us every year. A crore a day. Each email is an artifact which can be disputed, which does get disputed by intermediaries, customers, all kinds of people.
And Therefore I reconcile 300 crore emails every year. And that’s just like a percent of the work we do. But each part because anything can be referred to later. Do we do it most efficiently today? The answer is no. Because the way it is engineered, it is not done efficiently. It has components of labor doing all of that. As we build a new platform on technology which is developed in the last three, four, five years by some of the strongest names globally, a lot of these processes will become very, very efficient, instant, non batch, which means I will not accumulate 1 lakh units to start the work, I can work instantly through APIs, etc.
So we expect a lot of efficiency to accrue to the base. And when I said that despite all the expansion that has happened the 1st of January to the 31st of December, we did not increase headcount at all in the company. That’s a real statement. Now these efficiencies will go much farther. But we’ve been conservative in our style. It’s very easy for me to put a number and start publishing it to you guys and circulate it. We are not doing it now on a purpose. One of course is the workforce angle. Because we do not want to publicly cover any contractions in workforce.
We will not do that. And second, we want to be 100% sure that on a year, on year, quarter, on quarter basis, what advantages will accrue to investors under the company and whether we can publish them or not. But I can tell you that the work for that started one and a half years ago in June, July of 24. I personally monitor these things so I know the details that we are in a very good place right now. If you want specific answers, maybe three months from now we should be in a position to give you a little more specific.
We may never declare exact margin correlation of the new platform. I don’t think we intend to do that. But you will see a lot of this in the P and L. That’s where I will leave it.
Abhijeet
Thanks Noj. Thank you Ram.
operator
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Sanket from Evan Daspar. Please go ahead.
Sanketh
Yeah, thanks. Thanks for the opportunity. So I had one single simple question that the delta improvement in the margins, what we saw in quarter on quarter basis is predominantly driven by the non MF business. Is it? Or if you can give the delta change how much it contributed from the new initiate and new businesses and maybe Ms. In returns.
Ram Charan Sesharaman
So Sanket, the delta actually is predominantly because of the mutual fund business only the non mutual fund increase in margins was there but it was not significant enough to make more than 100bps increase in margins. I think that level of margin did not happen non mutual. Predominantly it is because of the mutual fund business. And if you see also driven by the rationalization in the manpower cost is that we do not have any increase in the manpower cost in spite of the labor code charge. I think quarter on quarter my manpower cost is stable as static.
In fact there’s no increase at all as minor decrease. So it is driven only by the core business. A very small part of it is because of the non man.
Sanketh
Understood. And you mentioned that your blended margin is 13 percentage for the non Ms. Part. Say maybe given it has improved by 300 basis point on year on year basis. If I understood right then is it fair to say that a similar delta can happen in this line of business in a year or two? In that sense given a couple of businesses are pure platforms.
Ram Charan Sesharaman
So the 10% reference rate was not last year. It was probably two and a half three years back when we started tracking this very closely as a separate bucket on a year on year basis I think the margin increase will be close to 100bps only it’s not 300bps in terms of non mutual fund business. But just going forward we do expect once we start adding more revenue to the top line. As Anuj mentioned, these are all platform based businesses. There could be a replication of this in terms of every year and for us to get to in three years time to a consolidated 20% EBITDA is I think the base we should be something more than that but at least to get there within the next three years.
Which means that as we keep adding revenue the increase in margins will be significant. So we hope to get to this 20% EBITDA margin within the next three years for the non mutual fund.
Sanketh
Okay, okay. So basically, basically a 700 basis point improvement in the non ML business in three year period is possible from the current levels.
Ram Charan Sesharaman
It is absolutely possible. Yes.
Sanketh
Understood, understood. And lastly given given so many mutual funds have got onboarded in last couple of years, this people count control is sustainable or you think ultimately somewhere we need to start adding people to cater to the requirements. In that sense.
Anuj Kumar
You will see that we had just inserted one line on technology based productivity. So while all these new MFs need teams, our philosophy has been dedicated headcount fenced areas for every new client. We don’t give them any shared facility to the extent possible. All that has happened. I think all these additions have been offset by efficiencies that we’ve created in other places. Some led by the new platform, some led by past innovations in technology in the base stack itself. So that will continue. That will continue. You will only see it gaining more momentum. It will not slow down.
I think it’s a 45 your journey from now where you will continue seeing these efficiencies play out.
Sanketh
So Anuj, is it fair to say that with no significant man count addition with productivity gains you can still cater to the newer funds even if you have a dedicated team to the newer funds?
Anuj Kumar
Yes, the last full year was vindication of this. Just look at the last four years. We have stated in public that we’ve taken these six clients and the SIFs live. The net headcount is flat to lower. Like Ram said, those are the real figures.
Sanketh
So in simple words then, with more people addition, is it fair to say that pure, pure MF business, not considering the new non MF business there is a scope. Assuming yield pressure doesn’t come because of the TR or something of that kind, then is it fair to say that this productivity gains itself will can expand your margins by Maybe, maybe another 100, 200 basis points in couple of years.
Ram Charan Sesharaman
So just like to see a couple of points there. One is that while there is no headcount increase, there will be an remuneration increase which is your increments and the annual increments will happen. So it’s not as if the labor cost is going to remain same. So there will be some cost pressure because you know that, you know every year there has to be an appraisal that goes to the employees. In a good year it’s probably more than 10%. A bad year is probably so that’s a cost that will come in. But as we say, even if there is moderate yield pressure and even if there is an impact on the salary cost and given the technology investments that we continue to make and the hiring which will continue to do for the platform, to expect the 100bps creep up in margins over the next year or two is something that is on the cards.
But again there are several moving parts to this. We would stick to our revenue, to our margin guidance to say that we will be more than 45% he will creep up to 46 and 47 in good quarters. But to predict anything more than that will be a little premature.
Sanketh
Now understood. This is very clear. Thanks. Thanks for the answers.
operator
Thank you. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press Star and one on their touchstone telephone. The next question comes from the line of Sukrit Depattle from Eyesight Fintrade Private Limited. Please go ahead.
Sucrit D. Patil
Good morning to the team. I have two questions. My first question to Mr. Anuj is as CAM expand beyond its core mutual fund service into insurance, fintech and digital platforms, how do you see the revenue mix evolving over the next two to three years and what strategic priorities, whether in technology innovation, partnerships or customer engagement, will be most critical to ensure CAMs maintain the backbone of India’s financial ecosystem? That’s my first question. I’ll ask my second question after this. Thank you.
Anuj Kumar
So again the only thing I’ll point your attention to is that consistently over the past six years since we started facing the market, there’s been no change in opposition on any of the things you’ve asked and that covers most topics. We don’t want to be an over diversified company. It’s not our attempt. I think investors can pay value for the kind of business they like and we don’t want to make it a mishmash. We publicly stated we’d like to get to about 20% of revenue contribution from non MF. We are steadfastly chasing that as a goal.
If we are able to expand revenue by about 150 to 200 crore every year in the next three years, we will be a 2000 crore company soon. That’s in three years or two and a half years. At that time 20% of non MF is 400 crore. We would like to get there in MF. I think if you’ve just seen our leadership and obviously some of you do attend the annual, you know, the meet we do for analysts, you would have seen that not just the top level leadership but people beyond and people beyond we have made significant investments.
None of this is lip service. None of this is showing you the mug shot of people who are work for us. All of this is clearly rupee value that we are delivering to the marketplace. If you ask me one single investment that I made in my time, it is this. Today we have literally between 50 to 100 engineers sourced from the IITs. And if I include the IIMs and the NITs and some of the tier one institutes, this number will be about 150 which we acquired in the last two and a half years, three years to build out the platform, be part of operations, be part of product, etc.
So that remains, we will not become over diversified. We will not make acquisitions just to make the top line look nicer. So Our stated commitment to the domestic market and despite all the temptations, you would have seen that we have been saying this consistently that till the domestic market worries us in some form, we are committed to the domestic market. This is the arena we are playing within the domestic market. 80% of our revenue should come from MF and related market segments. We will remain there. Now the balance part, when it becomes 400 or 500 crore meets its own attention.
For insurance companies for example, we relate with the regulators and the top insurance companies. Same for payments. Those two certainly to an extent. AIF and KRA. Although AIF is a very strong splintered business, there are not 60 but thousands of them. So cost of sales, etc. Increases for every product class. Therefore I think the dynamics are different. Mutual fund is concentrated business. The rest of them don’t have concentration. They are splintered businesses and therefore cost of sales will be high, cost of product can be high. Where we are competing with the fintechs and the startups which is like the account aggregator business.
I don’t think I have a single answer for your question. All I will say is that in the last 10 years we’ve been able to kind of stitch the strategy which plays well to the market to gain acceptance to be the number one or number two player in every segment we are in. And today you will see that at 68% market share, we are the number one player in MFRT. At 50% market share, we are the Number one player in Alternatives Outsourcing. At 40% market share, we are either number one or number two in Insurance Repository.
At close to 20% we are the number two in KRA. So these are the positions we are aspiring for. Can I get there? For every business the answer is no. We’ll be very happy if we have one core business which is kind of firing on all cylinders. And we have three other businesses which are firing on all cylinders. You don’t have companies which have six or seven leadership businesses. Very tough to get there. The rules of concentration apply to all of us. You can’t be an athlete doing free sports. So we are cognizant of that.
But that perhaps answers your question. Anything else that you need? Maybe you can have a separate dialogue.
Sucrit D. Patil
Fair enough. My second question is to Mr. Ramcharan. With CAN consistently delivering strong margins, how are you planning to sustain profitability while funding growth in newer businesses? Looking ahead, what is your framework for balancing operating leverage, disciplined capital allocation and digital cost efficiency to drive ROE and long term sustainability? Thank you.
Ram Charan Sesharaman
Sure. As you know that you know, the business that we operate in offers some amount of operating leverage to us. Well, there is puts and takes, right? So from a margin perspective there is always the pressure that you hit on the employee cost. There is a yield pressure that you that is abated now but still is there to some extent. And then there is entire technology investments and regulatory pressures that you need to keep investing. So this is offset by what we do in the productivity enhancements and technology, et cetera. So it’s a constant kind of puts and takes between both and we have managed to get a balance between the two and have seen that in that post listing.
We’ve been able to increase our margins by 100bps a year at least. And now that we are at a steady State of between 45 and 46 Percentage at any point of this journey we’ve never optimized on our investments in technology. We never investments in non mutual fund businesses. We have built out several products and platforms. We are cognizant of the fact that these could be the, you know, one of these could be the breakout revenue opportunity for us in the future also. So we have never optimized on the investments as such. Even in quarters where the margins were 40 to 43 percentage we did not optimize on investments.
We continue to build the products. We have released several such products in terms of the well served aggregator product, the pension product and even the several enhancements that’s happened from a mutual fund perspective. So I think the future is secured from that perspective. We have invested for the future. We invested on technology. We have created an optimal look at the cost so that they don’t kind of run away in terms of the operating costs. At the same time we have enough of operating leverage to cover the yield depletion. So I think we are in a good place from a margin perspective and going forward we don’t see much of a pressure on the this also.
Sucrit D. Patil
Thank you for the guidance and I wish the entire team best of all for the next quarter.
operator
Thank you. The next question comes from the line of Priyash Jain from Motilal Oswal. Please go ahead.
Prayesh Jain
Yeah, hi. Hi everyone out there and good set of numbers. The first is a bit of a structural question as to, you know, there are a lot of new Ms. Again getting licenses to open up and more are in the pipeline, more people wanting to open mutual funds. So how is the landscape now in terms of the competitive intensity in acquiring new AMCs into the fold? So you know, so could you, if you could throw some light there Because I think in the past few years there has been a high degree of competitive intensity to acquire the new AMCs.
So what is the kind of intensity right now that you’re seeing?
Anuj Kumar
So like we said, you know, there were two kinds of people who wanted to get into mutual funds. There were the broking companies and there were the PMS and AIFERs. It continues to remain in those two boxes. Most of the new applicants are in either the first or the second box. Despite the increased network requirements, etc. There is obviously a trend to give a lot more licenses and make this a less concentrated industry than it has been. That is perhaps at a policy level, the thought process, we have been clear, like I said at the beginning of this call, that we are selling value to our customers, both existing and new ones.
And therefore there are logos that we want and we go completely after them. And then there could be. There will always be, like I said, in every market, not just this market where people want to buy the lowest price for either constraints or just the approach towards buying. We are not sure whether we want to be part of each. One of those bids last one year, for example, we took six AMCs live. Some of the new AMCs which we took live in N23, N24 will head towards 10,000 crore mark soon. One of them has already headed towards 10,000.
So some of them are making good progress. But we are selling value. We don’t want to be competing on price, going to the bottom of the barrel or scraping the bottom. We will deliver sustained value. So we expect new AMCs to come in. Like I said, six of them went live last year. Four were new domestic logos. One was a domestic transition, one was a Sri Lankan logo. That leaves four one logos to be taken live in 26, which will be taken live by us definitely within 26, I think. So the new wins which happen from now to June, will also be eligible to go live in.
So I think it will be about five to six go lives, which I think is a very good number for us to kind of ensure that we are doing justice to our clients. We’re giving them high quality operating environments, strong talent and clients obviously who appreciate the value that Camps brings to the table. So that’s been the approach so far.
Prayesh Jain
Got that. And secondly, on the again, structural bit. Do you think that the RTA industry at any point in future, say like next three, four years, could move to a fixed pricing mechanism rather than a percentage of AUM basis? Do you think that is a better approach?
Anuj Kumar
Well, I’LL give you the honest answer that if I had a fixed cost or price portfolio, a fixed price per transaction, a fixed price for any activity, I would perhaps end up making more money than I make today. Our price for folio has been dipping almost every year for the last 10 years. Our price for transaction has been dipping every year for the last eight or nine years. So it’s just that it’s a more uncertain regime than the regime today. We’ve been used to a certain regime and used to managing cost and profit in a certain regime.
It will be a humongous change to implement something like that. The change request will have to be priced. A lot of administrative and pricing work and scoping work will come in, which I don’t think we as an industry are ready for. So we are happy with the way things are happening and we are happy the entire retailization. We gave you a number of camps registering 1.2 crore SIPs in a quarter 10 or 11 years back this number used to be less than 1:10. Now my revenue has not grown 10 times. I could have charged cost per sip registration and we would have been a richer company.
But all of that is meant for other people. I think we are quite happy with the pricing, so are our clients. And I don’t think any dramatic shifts in optimizing it for either side, either the buyer or seller are underway right now.
Prayesh Jain
Got that? Just some bookkeeping questions. On the employee cost there has been flattish trajectory or marginal decline. In fact sequentially. Ram anything on the on the new labor law that the impact has yet to be taken or anything on that sort.
Ram Charan Sesharaman
So praise. So as you know that you know labor law was notified on 21st of November and I think there are some rules that are yet to be notified which is expected to be April 1. There are four broad lengths to it. People are talking about a graduate impact, a possible ESI impact, a possible provident fund impact and possibly believe in cashmere impact. In our assessment the biggest impact will be the graduate impact. Others could be minor if any. And we have taken the full impact of the graduate. So we have done an actual valuation and hence I think going forward from a labor code perspective we do not expect a significant cost to come to the books.
I think that has been fully provided for in the current quarter
Prayesh Jain
and last. Bit on the seasonality in camps pay, like in the fourth quarter of FY25 we had seen a very sharp jump from about 11 crores to about 16 crores revenue. That’s because the camps pay is a part of insurance as well. We should expect something similar. Is that the right way to think about seasonality in Camspay?
Ram Charan Sesharaman
It is true that there will be an uptick in the revenue in Q4 Praish that is expected. However, we are trying to normalize things so that we don’t see a big dip in Q1. Also, there are enough efforts underway to broad based the client base to ensure that doesn’t happen. But to your limited question of whether there’s going to be a spike in Q4, we do expect Q4 revenue to grow over Q3 revenue.
Prayesh Jain
Got that? Thank you so much and wish you all the best.
operator
Thank you. We will take this as our last question for today. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Ram Charan for closing comments.
Ram Charan Sesharaman
Thank you. And thank you to all the participants for your participation in spending time on camps. As always, if you have any queries, please feel free to reach out to Anish or to Orient Capital. I’ll be happy to take your meetings and questions. Thank you.
operator
On behalf of mufc. That concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us and you may now disconnect your lines.