C.E. Info Systems Limited (MAPMYINDIA) Q4 FY23 Earnings Concall Transcript

C.E. Info Systems Limited (NSE:MAPMYINDIA) Q4 FY23 Earnings Concall dated Apr. 24, 2023.

Corporate Participants:

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Analysts:

Anmol Garg — DAM Capital Advisors Limited — Analyst

Nitin Sharma — Moneycontrol Pro Research — Analyst

Vimal Gohil — Alchemy Capital Management Private Limited — Analyst

Sameer Pardikar — ICICI Direct — Analyst

Sameer Dosani — ICICI Prudential AMC — Analyst

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

Moez Chandani — Centrum Broking Limited — Analyst

Pooja Ahuja — Monarch Networth Capital Ltd. — Analyst

Anirudh Agarwal — ValueQuest Investment Advisors — Analyst

Pratyush Agarwal — White Oak Capital Management — Analyst

Vidyadhar Ginde — Sohum Asset Managers Private Limited — Analyst

Paras Bothra — Ashika India Alpha Fund — Analyst

Presentation:

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and welcome to the C.E. Info Systems Limited Q4 and FY ’23 Earnings Call, hosted by DAM Capital Advisors Limited. [Operator Instructions] Please note, this conference is being recorded.

I now hand the conference over to Mr. Anmol Garg from DAM Capital. Thank you. And over to you, sir.

Anmol Garg — DAM Capital Advisors Limited — Analyst

Thank you, Darpin [Phonetic]. Good afternoon, everyone.

On behalf of DAM Capital, we welcome you all to Q4 FY ’23 Conference Call of C.E. Info Systems, better known as MapmyIndia. We have with us Mr. Rakesh Verma, Co-Founder and CMD of the company; Mr. Rohan Verma, CEO and Executive Director; Mr. Anuj Jain, CFO of the company; and Mr. Saurabh Somani, Company Secretary and Compliance Officer.

I’ll now hand over the call to Mr. Verma for his opening remarks. Thank you. And over to you, sir.

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

Thanks, Anmol. And on behalf of MapmyIndia, I would like to welcome all the participants in this earnings call. We have already submitted our investor presentation to the stock exchange, which I hope many of you might have gotten a chance to look at.

I would like to start saying that, one, we are privileged to have you all as investors or analysts or fund managers who are participating in our journey. I’ll start saying that I’m very happy to report to all the shareholders that MapmyIndia had a very good year, 2023, a stellar year I can say without hesitation, where revenue went up 41% to INR282 crores. The PAT went up 24% to INR108 crores year-on-year. EBITDA margin, we maintained at 42%. With these three, you can see that the revenue, which had grown 31% year before has gone up to 41% growth and the PAT — EBITDA margin also at 42%.

Few of the items I would like to bring — highlight for your information, that during this year, the year we are talking about, MapmyIndia is making quite a big investment, an organic investment in the IoT business. While we’re doing that — and I’ll let you know few of the things that have happened. While the 42% margin is well maintained, the map-led business, which is the core business had a healthy EBITDA margin of almost 52%. IoT business, we are looking at in a very positive way, because while there are almost 280 million to 300 million vehicles on the road, we believe that the total addressable market when it is so large, we need to address that market and become the leader in this space also. So, map and IoT together is what our business has become today and will continue to be our business in the coming times.

Just to give you one small statistics that in the nine months of last fiscal year, while our EBITDA margin from the IoT-led business was 1%, it grew to 4% in the Q4 of FY ’23. And this has been possible because the SaaS revenue or the SaaS income has started kicking in. The exciting aspect of the IoT-led business is that while we sold 1.9 lakh IoT devices in fiscal year ’23, more than 3 times that of fiscal year ’22, there is a potential addressable market of 20 crore vehicles or 200 million vehicles or 300 million vehicles in that range that can be tapped in the future, showing the large headroom there is for MapmyIndia’s IoT-led hardware and SaaS business. So, this I wanted to say it very clearly that we are on the right track in the area, which is hardware-led. Still we have made it profitable in its first year of operations itself.

With that, I would like to hand over the mic to Rohan, let him explain how the business is going to shape up in the times to come.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Thanks a lot, Mr. Verma. It’s a pleasure to be on this call with all of you.

Like Mr. Verma said, we had a stellar year, 41% growth, INR282 crores for FY ’22. It was broad based, meaning Consumer Tech and Enterprise Digital transformation was up 48% to INR130 crores, and A&M, Automotive & Mobility Tech revenue was up 34% to INR152 crores. Keep in mind that a few things that we have beat out the automotive industry growth itself, which was less than 20%, while our own automotive business has grown more than 40%, on the IoT side also as Mr. Verma said 140% year-on year growth. So on all counts, A&M has done quite well.

Quarterly, the dynamics was that if you look at quarter year-on year, which we never suggest, our business is an annual business. But even in case somebody wants to look at it, then when you see Q4 of this year versus previous year Q4, you see a 2% growth. Reason is, if you go back to Q3 FY ’22, there was a semiconductor shortage and that pushed up artificially Q4 of FY ’22 and in any case, Q4 is a seasonally weak quarter…

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

FY ’23.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

…of FY ’23. In any case, I hope that helps people understand the A&M dynamics at play.

The C&E, of course, continues to grow quite strong. It’s grown at 48%. 1.9 plus million vehicles were built in with MapmyIndia Mappls, up from 1.3 million. Lot of upselling is happening. We were also successful in gaining a lot more orders on the automotive front, even the mobility front. I’ll talk about it. So, that brings me to the open order book. Open order book has grown spectacularly to INR918 crores, 31% up, INR699 crores at the beginning of the year. And this was based on annual new order bookings of INR512 crores, plus we added 250 plus customers, B2B and B2B2C customers.

Not all of our customers acquisition reflects in our open order book, because a lot of it is subscription-based or transaction based, where — since we don’t have the contractual volume from the customers, but we will get paid based on the consumption or as their usage increases, so that doesn’t reflect in our open order book. So actually getting these 250 plus customers going up from 600 plus to 850 plus and doing the INR512 crores, new order bookings shows that the business development in the year is going to set a stage for the future.

And also just finally on the — I wanted to share that look in this coming year, there are few things also that we will be incubating some potentially large, yet unlocked opportunities for our company. One is in the space of the consumer app and gadgets with Mappls App and Mappls Gadgets getting rave reviews from consumers. I think anybody using Mappls App will say it is much better than Google Maps. Only thing was Google Maps were pre-loaded, but now the Competition Commission has also ruled against them. That regulatory change is going to happen. Plus by creating more brand and visibility for us, it will have a positive knock-on effect on our business. So, we have some good plans for consumers space in the time to come and gadgets itself as part of IoT, as Mr. Verma said, the SaaS revenue kicking in leads to that.

Additionally, the drone space also, we will incubate and explore. It’s a fast-growing market. We have now built up the capability of full stack providing drone hardware, but also drone services and also drone-based data analytics and solution. We are doing this both organically and through our inorganic investment. And so we can take — and we are already winning lot of drone business, so that’s something that will grow in the time to come. And of course, we will continue to invest in the products and platforms.

So I mean, if you look at the quarterly kind of, sorry — the financial year’s EBITDA margin, PAT margin, I think the numbers are there. I want to call out that our ex-cash ROCE, return on capital employed is 122%. And just also to give a sense to people, over the course of the history of the company, we have raised just INR124 crores in the company. And if you just look at cash, also that has grown from INR381 crores to INR485 crores. Anybody can see that we are highly capital efficient, and the reason is 28 years of building digital products and platforms, being deep tech from the top management downwards has helped us create competitive products, which is not easy to replicate.

I think if you look at the Map-led and IoT-led business, we’ve already talked about how that’s growing fast. Map-led business is majority of our open orders, about INR700 crores out of the INR900 crores. So, you can see that the Map-led business is also set to grow fast in the time to come. Lot of customer wins across Automotive and Mobility Tech. I’ll leave it for Q&A. Similar for consumers and — Consumer Tech and Enterprise, lot of customer wins as I’ve said, BFSI, NBFC, fintech, social commerce, D2C, and, of course, key strategic government wins.

So, I think with that probably — last point on the customer diversification. Now, 54 customers form 80% of our revenue. Earlier, it was 35, and the year before it was 25. So, you can start seeing that customer diversification is also there and retention stays high at 91% and 250 plus, as I said, we added customers and we’ve given our employee breakup, etc.

To give you a sense, we are now 1,170 employees, mostly technical, 900 plus technical. And somebody was commenting that in less than 1,000 technical people, you have generated INR100 crores plus of profit, this is a rarity and we are an outlier in that. Our attrition is 16.9%. I think it’s well in control.

So with that, we’ll open up to questions, I think?

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

Yeah.

Questions and Answers:

Operator

Thank you very much. [Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Anmol Garg from DAM Capital. Please go ahead.

Anmol Garg — DAM Capital Advisors Limited — Analyst

Hi. Thanks for the opportunity. So, I had a couple of questions. Firstly, wanted to understand the growth dynamics in the auto segment, ex of the IoT hardware business. So, ex of the IoT hardware, the growth in the auto segments looks a bit muted of around 13%, 14% versus strong volume sales that we have done of around 46% growth from the NCASE solutions. I’m talking about FY ’23. So, just wanted to understand that, has there been any change in the realization in the auto business? Yeah, that will be my first question.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Anmol, no, that’s not right information. IoT is not all A&M. IoT is partial in A&M and partial in C&E. Our auto business is quite strong. It’s growing quite fast. So it’s definitely much more there. We don’t break it out specifically as an end customer type. But it’s grown, I mean, at least 30%. And volume definitely has grown 46%, you’re right. Industry volume is anyway less than 20%, so you see our attach rate going up. And we are — there are two-wheelers also, which are going live with our solutions.

So, more and more two-wheeler customers are also there. But at the same time, the four-wheeler customers have also increased and we are doing a bunch of up-selling. And like I said, our open order book on the Map-led part is about INR700 crores, bunch of new EV platforms of big four-wheeler companies have started the work, which will go live next year. We are upselling ADAS connected services. So, I mean, we are quite bullish on the automotive part of our business.

Anmol Garg — DAM Capital Advisors Limited — Analyst

Thanks, Rohan, for the clarity. Just secondly wanted to have more of outlook-based question on both auto, IoT, and the consumer business for next year. Any particular guidance that you are giving from the growth perspective for the next year?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

See, what Mr. Verma said in the beginning that, look, you saw a couple of years ago what our growth was, what revenue, but you also started to see our order book go up. Then previous year, you saw 31% revenue growth. You saw what open order book growth was. This year, you can see the open order book growth, plus the new set of customers and we had 40% revenue growth. So for sure, we are looking at, at least doing that. And the growth will be across each of the segments.

We see pretty strong sustainable growth potential in each of our segments, be it automotive, corporate, government, retail, if I say from a customer type point of view or A&M and C&E from a market point of view. So where we stand today, given our position of our products, our differentiation, our existing customer base and customer acceptance, we think that we’ll have a — we’ll able to do much better growth in the future and sustainably so.

Anmol Garg — DAM Capital Advisors Limited — Analyst

Sure. Thanks, Rohan. And just one last thing from my end, and then I’ll join back in the queue. So, just wanted to understand the normalized long-term margins that can be there in the IoT business. Right now, you said that it has already increased to 4 odd percent right now. So, maybe in a time period of two years to three years, if you can highlight that what can be the margins into this business? And also part to that would be that now we have been highlighting that we are — we want to go more towards the hardware business. So in that case, will our long-term margins be impacted because of that?

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

I don’t think we said that we are going towards hardware business. What we have said is, IoT is a business where it is a hardware led. What that means is the moment you give — it’s like an investment today and the return is tomorrow, it’s a customer acquisition. So if I give the hardware today, the cost comes today definitely, but SaaS kicks in maybe six months later, a year later. And then for the years to come, you start — you have done two good things. One, you acquired a customer, whether the customer is a B2B, or a customer is a consumer. And then you keep earning — reaping in the SaaS revenue from him for a long time to come. It’s a very interesting business. It is with great effort that a year back, we decided that the best way for us is to treat it as an organic business only because it also has a very good impact on the Map-led business.

So overall, what I would like to say — you’re trying to understand what would be the normalized margin. The way we look at it is what would be our normalized profit ultimately, and the profit comes definitely [Phonetic] not from margin as a percentage, but the profit also comes on what volume we create in terms of revenue. So ultimately, what matters for the subsidiaries, we added INR100 crores cash into the company through a profit of INR108 crores, imagine that’s the kind of power we are looking at. That’s the way we are trying to run our business. Once you start appreciating this, it’s a very new way, another way of doing business.

Anmol Garg — DAM Capital Advisors Limited — Analyst

Sure, sir. Sure. Thanks for the clarification, sir. I’ll join back in the queue.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Nitin Sharma from MC Pro Research. Please go ahead.

Nitin Sharma — Moneycontrol Pro Research — Analyst

Yeah. Yeah. Thanks a lot for taking my question. So, two questions. First of all, since you plan to focus on the consumer app and gadgets side, is it fair to assume that your marketing budget is going to go up next year? And if yes, then some guidance would be helpful.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

See, like we’ve said about marketing before, we definitely calibrate our marketing spend in line with whatever financial goals that we set for ourselves. So, yes, we will invest more in marketing, but it will be aligned with the growth in any case that we are seeing of our overall business. So if we’ve given you a sense of where revenue will go in the next year and where margins — anyways, we look at these margins at 40% above level, then you can imagine that how much already headroom we have for marketing because other costs don’t go up that high in line with that. So definitely, we will increase our budgets on marketing. But again, as we do everything, we will be quite capital efficient and different in building strong consumer franchise app-led and gadgets led, which will also have, like I said a knock-on effect, a positive effect on the B2B business too.

Nitin Sharma — Moneycontrol Pro Research — Analyst

Okay. Okay. And your capex seems to have gone up. Can you please help understand what is in there, how do you see going ahead? And then I have a very small bookkeeping question.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

I didn’t understand what you said. Capex?

Nitin Sharma — Moneycontrol Pro Research — Analyst

Yeah. Your capex excluding acquisition seems to have gone up. So help me understand what is in there and how do you see it going ahead?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

But capex might have gone up a very little bit. It might be primarily for the computers and those kinds of things. But are you talking about the fixed asset.

Nitin Sharma — Moneycontrol Pro Research — Analyst

No, sir. Sir, the purchases of property, plant investments have gone from INR4 crores to INR15 crores, I think, in FY ’23. [Speech Overlap]

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

See, rental? Yeah. So when we sell these devices, we also provide them on an opex model to customers where we rent out these devices and we collect the largest fee per month for a longer time. It’s actually more lucrative for us than just selling the device upfront sometimes. So, there is a mix of selling and renting out. So when we rent out, then that goes as a fixed asset in our books.

Nitin Sharma — Moneycontrol Pro Research — Analyst

Understood. Understood. And lastly just bookkeeping. Some color on what are these 250 customer additions, which are the segments? Some breakup would be helpful.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

So large majority are corporates. Of course, in automotive, each customers can be big depending on how sizable that OEM is. So, we definitely added automotive OEMs as well. And government, we pick and choose which customers we want to work with. So, we’ve picked some strategic government organizations at center, state and local levels. But large majority of corporates, which is great, because that’s where we can up-sell our whole range and there’s a lot more such businesses and that’s what we do. We look at which customers and which industry segments or which use cases we’ve already sold and then we up-sell, cross-sell, do look-alike selling. And that kind of creates that flywheel that more customers, more use cases, we can sell that back to existing ones, etc. So mostly corporates.

Nitin Sharma — Moneycontrol Pro Research — Analyst

Okay. Thank you. I’ll get back to the queue.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Vimal Gohil from Alchemy Capital Management Private Limited. Please go ahead.

Vimal Gohil — Alchemy Capital Management Private Limited — Analyst

Yeah. Thanks. Sir, my first question is on your explanation around your IoT business and the SaaS revenue that follows, the hardware that you sell. And you said that there is a lag of about six months to one year until the SaaS revenue actually kicks in. Sir, what really — so my understanding was that once the IoT device is actually installed in the vehicle, the SaaS revenue should be kicking in immediately. So if you could just help us correct that understanding if it’s —

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

No, your understanding is right. But the way it is happening is, we are giving the devices in two ways, as Rohan just said, on a rental basis or as a sale of the hardware. Now on a rental basis, if I’m giving, yes, the SaaS revenue starts kicking in right away. If I’m selling the hardware, we might be selling it with some understanding with the customers that we will charge you SaaS a year later.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

No, no. Either we bundle the SaaS with the hardware for a year.

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

Right. So, we may — we bundling it with the SaaS saying that for one year the subscription is free and after that, you may be paying. That’s the reality.

Vimal Gohil — Alchemy Capital Management Private Limited — Analyst

All right. So basically, the understanding is that — now that’s a change in my understanding. So basically, for one year, the SaaS revenues are typically free for — and this would be typically for B2B customers?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

No, no. That’s not right. I mean, that’s not right. I mean, we charge for hardware and SaaS separately. In some case — like a consumer, if you are — as a consumer, you are going to buy it with a one-year plan or a three-year plan. So hence, the SaaS revenue from that will kick in later. But if you’re an enterprise, we’ll charge for the hardware as a SaaS separately, and that will start kicking in from day one. So if you look at the SaaS revenue this year of IoT, out of the INR60 crores, INR17 crores has been SaaS revenue. INR42 crores is hardware. So, you start getting a sense of how the SaaS revenue will add and then that hardware base will generate more SaaS in the years to come. So, I hope that helps.

Vimal Gohil — Alchemy Capital Management Private Limited — Analyst

Yeah. Understood, sir. And sir, on your margins, basically, if your SaaS is going to take some time to sort of kick in and plus you also are going to invest in — as you said, in your consumer business, in drones, etc. Would it be fair to say that the exit rate of FY ’23 will be a fair number to sort of look at, at least for the next couple of years?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Like Mr. Verma said, we are looking to build a pretty large company, okay? I don’t think we are optimizing for quarterly EBITDA. I think we are already one of the highest in the peer set of technology or otherwise also. 40 plus EBITDA margin. I’m not sure how many technology companies at least in the peer set. So, we want to build a very large revenue-based company.

On that, the absolute EBITDA growth, absolute PAT growth is what will determine, in our opinion, the success of the company like generating cash every year. Those are the things we are looking at. So the margin, we are looking at 40 plus, okay, that has been the track record, but 3 [Phonetic] on the EBITDA side. But we would like to have the ability to go after larger and larger opportunities. I think it’s in the interests of the company while doing it responsibly to go after the large TAMs that are out there.

Vimal Gohil — Alchemy Capital Management Private Limited — Analyst

Understood, sir. Thank you so much, and all the very best.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Sameer Pardikar from ICICIdirect. Please go ahead.

Sameer Pardikar — ICICI Direct — Analyst

Sir, am I audible? Hello?

Operator

Sir, you have a disturbance in your line.

Sameer Pardikar — ICICI Direct — Analyst

Hello? Yeah.

Operator

Hello? Mr. Pardikar?

Sameer Pardikar — ICICI Direct — Analyst

Am I audible now?

Operator

Yes. This is much better, sir.

Sameer Pardikar — ICICI Direct — Analyst

Yeah. Sir, couple of bookkeeping questions. The dip in the new order book, because we have grown our new order book very strongly for last three years. Now there is some (Technical Issues), albeit it’s very small, 2% to 3%. But what explains this dip in the new order book for this year, sir?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Yeah. So the open order book is what determines the future kind of revenue. That has grown up to INR918 crores from INR699 crores. So that’s grown 31%. The annual new order bookings, you have to look at in conjunction with the number of new customer acquisitions also we have done. Because lot of the new customer acquisitions we do, for example, in IoT. If we are — when somebody buys a device or a customer comes on board, unless they are contractually obligated or they have given us a PO, we don’t book for the SaaS, we don’t book that. As every month that they use, they will pay us.

So, obviously, if they have paid upfront for a hardware, they will continue to pay for the subscription very — I mean, or when APIs happen based on the consumption of the user, as — like you ask Alexa, that how far is the airport from you or where is the hospital nearby, she’ll answer according to MapmyIndia, it is this. Like that, every call we’ll get paid. So sometimes it’s hard to predict and definitely, we don’t — in some cases, don’t get that contract — contractual obligation. But as we consume, we get paid. So when you look at 250 plus customers, a lot of that potential revenue is not showing up in the — neither in the annual new order booking and nor in the open order book. So overall, when you look at the business potential or outcome, you should look at both in conjunction for this year.

Sameer Pardikar — ICICI Direct — Analyst

Sir, do we see a recovery in this number from the current one what we have reported in FY ’23, or it will be more of a constant number for next couple of…

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

No, no. We –our aspiration. We don’t cap our aspiration on order booking. Whatever best we can do, we do. And the number turns out whatever it has to turn out. Our aspiration, obviously, every year is higher and higher. But we are sharing with you what we achieved in the past year. Of course, our aspirations on order booking are much higher.

Sameer Pardikar — ICICI Direct — Analyst

Sure. And second thing, I think, last year we — out of INR200 crores, we said that probably INR80 crores has come from an open order book if I remember correctly. What is the follow-on number for FY ’23, similar number for FY ’23?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

You mean out of INR280 crores, how much is from the open order and how much is from the [Speech Overlap]

Sameer Pardikar — ICICI Direct — Analyst

We did disclose. Yeah, we did disclose this number last year. So out of INR200 crores of revenue, we did disclose [Speech Overlap]

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

Our of INR200 crores, INR80 crore was from — what were you saying?

Sameer Pardikar — ICICI Direct — Analyst

Open order. This was some number, if I remember correctly. So, what is the corresponding number for FY ’23?

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

I think it was roughly half and half. It was roughly half and half.

Sameer Pardikar — ICICI Direct — Analyst

Half and half.

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

We don’t call it out in the investor deck. Maybe we answered it in the presentation or in the Q&A. So, I don’t have the exact number. But it’s roughly half and half. So, our open order book, the execution is between three to five, four to five that type of…

Sameer Pardikar — ICICI Direct — Analyst

Sure. Sure. Thank you, sir. That’s it from my side.

Operator

Thank you. We have the next question from the line of Sameer Dosani from ICICI Prudential AMC. Please go ahead.

Sameer Dosani — ICICI Prudential AMC — Analyst

Hey. Thanks for the opportunity. Just wanted to understand IoT business more. Sir, what do you think would be the churn rate because you are running this business for last one year now? What would be the ideal churn rate in this business now?

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

We’ve been running it actually as MapmyIndia for last many years. Actually almost, I would say, seven years, eight years, probably 10 years. But in the last one year, what we did by acquiring, it was kind of an acquihire. We paid INR13 crores and got a solid team, about 125 odd people who as the company had generated INR8 crores in that year. And we use that opportunity to strengthen our management bandwidth to scale that business because now there was a full team and our own team.

So if you look at now IoT-led business has about 350 or 380 people. I think we’ve put it in the presentation and we had our sales revenue of about whatever INR25 crores odd in that year. So the objective is always to have nil churn. But of course, you will have some churn. And if you look at the SaaS revenue growing, you’ll get a good sense of kind of that things are progressing well. So now with scale, we will see what is happening to churn. I think we’ll be better positioned to answer this in the next year or so.

Sameer Dosani — ICICI Prudential AMC — Analyst

But now, since we have run that — running it for seven years, what should we understand on the churn rate, 15%, 20%, what should be the churn rate? What’s your estimate?

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

I mean, you can just use that as a thumb rule for now. But again, I don’t want to give you a specific number because it’s not something that — like I said, we look at this and share with you probably in the time to come.

Sameer Dosani — ICICI Prudential AMC — Analyst

No problem, sir.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

But right now I don’t want to comment on it.

Sameer Dosani — ICICI Prudential AMC — Analyst

No problem. And also now — this IoT business is now at 4% EBITDA margins at the exit rate, Q4 exit rate. What is the number of devices that would make you comfortable to reach at a company level margin in this business because right now it’s a sub-scaled business? And what is the kind of plan that you would have, how many years would it take us to reach there at a company level margin in this business? And actually, since this business is much more profitable because of the SaaS offering, what should be the margin levels of this business once it’s scaled to a level where you want to?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

I mean, the Map-led is also pretty profitable. I don’t know, we may have missed that. This is — I mean, the Map-led itself is also quite strong as a business.

Sameer Dosani — ICICI Prudential AMC — Analyst

Correct.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

In IoT, see, the headroom for growth is quite high. So, we are looking at what the absolute value of profits, EBITDA. etc., we can generate. Because the yearly margin is a bit of a function of how many new devices you put and what’s the past SaaS revenue number becomes for that year. So, our growth aspiration for the IoT business each year will determine what the PAT margin for that year is and this can be true even in future. But what will happen is, as you said, as the scale increases, the absolute contribution will continue to increase. Like this year, as we said this last quarter itself and this year, as we had predicted that we have said absolute contribution will be there of this business at EBITDA level, which is true. So it will only grow.

Sameer Dosani — ICICI Prudential AMC — Analyst

Okay. I understood. And next question is on the order book. If you look at order book, it has been consistent for last three years, has been consistently expanding, the open order book number. Is the average duration in some way changing, like was it three years in 2021 and 2023, it’s four and a half years or five years. Is that — what — if you can comment on the average years or the number of years this order book represents over last three years, it will be helpful.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Yes. It’s always a function of what type of orders and what contribution they have to the overall size and the aging, etc. So it’s — in that order like — it’s in that order of four or four plus years, if you want to take it like that. [ Speech Overlap]

Sameer Dosani — ICICI Prudential AMC — Analyst

And this was how much?

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

The issue that comes up here is we are saying that three years to five years on an average or somehow we are just trying to give you a perspective. I mean, some orders could be just — which may get consumed in one year, some might get consumed in two years, some might get consumed in three years, some might get consumed in four years or five years. Now every year when we look at, internally, we say that here is INR900 plus crores of orders that is available for us to consume. What will get consumed in fiscal year ’24? Internally, we have worked out that number and then we try to make sure that, that number is achieved during FY ’24.

Sameer Dosani — ICICI Prudential AMC — Analyst

Correct.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Plus new order.

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

Plus the new orders that will keep coming during the year.

Sameer Dosani — ICICI Prudential AMC — Analyst

Correct. No, I’m asking, on an average level, like INR920 crores is maybe four and a half years. FY ’22 open order book represents four years. So, I’m just trying to understand that, if you have [Speech Overlap]

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

If I try to generalize it, it’s very easy for me that I will divide it by some number and say four years, three years, five years. Every year the same — if I take that INR900 crores, what is the impact? Forget about anything new. That INR900 crores, what is this contribution going to be in FY year one? And what will be it in year two and year three may vary. That is a challenge.

Sameer Dosani — ICICI Prudential AMC — Analyst

Sure.

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

But overall, what you have seen that we have grown as a revenue from INR150 crores to INR200 crores to INR280 crores, and we are pretty bullish that there is no reason why the revenue growth will not happen, will not be better than FY’23.

Sameer Dosani — ICICI Prudential AMC — Analyst

Correct.

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

That is based — a lot of that is based on the confidence of the open order that we already have.

Sameer Dosani — ICICI Prudential AMC — Analyst

Okay. Understood. And so this converts into a 40% growth guidance that we have been reiterating — we have been speaking about, right? So that’s the overall color in…

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

Yeah. At least we are facing.

Sameer Dosani — ICICI Prudential AMC — Analyst

Okay. All right. Thanks. Thanks for that. Thank you.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

And look at this year-to-date and on an annual basis, don’t extrapolate for every quarter using this opportunity.

Sameer Dosani — ICICI Prudential AMC — Analyst

Rohan sir, just a small follow-up on this because if you look at a number of devices in A&M, auto side, right, I think last year was a very good year for auto and we already are at 1.9 million vehicles, right? I’m not sure — I mean, at the auto level, the growth would be lower next year, right? The auto industry would be growing lower in FY ’24. So how we understand now? Can we continue to grow at 40%, and where does our confidence come from in auto at least? Thanks.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Yeah. See, it will be a function of few things. Auto, when we say auto, we mean new vehicles, which are rolling out of the factory, right?

Sameer Dosani — ICICI Prudential AMC — Analyst

Correct.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

And four-wheeler, two-wheeler commercial vehicle, ICE or EV, and we can also sell Map-led or IoT-led. We have NCASE solution, which we say for — suite of solutions for OEMs. So, there is a lot of upselling that we can do into new vehicles as well. So, there is potentially a lot of upside. One is the steady-state attach rates in the developed markets is like 50%, 60% take rate on the whole industry. So, we are just touching like 9.5%, 10%, and we are the majority of this market ourselves. So, there’s a lot of upselling that can happen from our side, which we will attempt to do, both Map-led and IoT-led. So, I think there is a lot of growth still remaining in the automotive market. That’s what’s exciting to us.

Sameer Dosani — ICICI Prudential AMC — Analyst

Understood. So overall total vehicles sold 50%, 60% have maps and we are at 9% to 10% of that. I understood.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

No, no. I’m saying in developed market.

Sameer Dosani — ICICI Prudential AMC — Analyst

Okay.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

The attach rare if you go — like in developed markets, not India. Sorry, international markets like Korea or U.S. or wherever, the attach rate of this category of stuff is like 50%, 60%. In India, our sales are at 9%. So you can see — and we are the majority of the market. So, you can see what our upside can be. I hope that’s clearer.

Sameer Dosani — ICICI Prudential AMC — Analyst

I understood. And industry level, this 9%, 10%, would be how much to get an idea?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Again, internationally, it’s 50%, 60%. In India, we are the market in India. In automotive, NCASE, who else is there?

Sameer Dosani — ICICI Prudential AMC — Analyst

Correct. Okay. Got your point. All right. Thanks for that clarification. Thank you, Rohan.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Thanks.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Amar Mourya from AlfAccurate Advisors. Please go ahead.

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

Yeah. Sir, thanks a lot for the opportunity. First thing, sir, in new order book, what would be the breakup between the auto and consumer tech, the growth?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

It’s about 60% A&M and 40% C&E. Yeah, 60%, 65%.

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

60% would be auto, right?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Automotive and Mobility, yeah.

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

60%, 65% and 30%, 35%.

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

Okay. And when you say mobility, so basically, we are clubbing in this, basically, the IoT part also?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Some of the IoT is in Mobility, A&M and some of it is in C&E. It’s not one-to-one corelated.

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

Okay. Okay. But then is it possible [Speech Overlap]

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

IoT is a product. A&M is like market, and C&E is a market.

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

I got that. So, sir, is it possible like in this new order, what would be, let’s say, IoT component, is it easy to breakup for you?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Yeah. Like I said, out of the INR918 crores, about INR700 crores odd is Map-led and about whatever 20% odd, 18% or something, 15% to 20% is IoT-led.

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

And this number would be kind of similar for the new order book also? 18%, 20% of the overall order book would be the IoT-led?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

I mean 20% of — maybe — we haven’t broken it up like that A&M, C&E.

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

I got it. Correct. So, sir, basically if I see the C&E order book growth, I mean, it has basically seen some de-growth on a year-over-year basis. So any specific reason this year for this number to decline?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

I don’t know. See, I don’t know whether that’s true or not.

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

How did you calculate for a degrowth?

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

So basically, sir, last year if I see ’22, the C&E number was INR279 crore and auto new order book was INR245 crores. So total new order book last year was around INR524 crores, right?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Yeah. But we haven’t broken up A&M, C&E order book. Looking at fixed and volume or what, what is it?

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

No. I’m talking about the absolute — see, last year, total new order book was around INR524 crores. Correct, sir?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Right.

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

So in that INR524 crores order book, INR245 crores come from auto and INR279 crores was from the C&E.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

I don’t know how that — did we publish that?

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

Sir, I think it was given. I don’t know whether it was given in the publication or probably during the meeting or something like that. But I was…

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

Maybe we can pick it up some other time.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Okay. We’ll look up. We can always get back on this. But my point is that, again, I’ll reiterate. Our C&E business is also growing quite fast, 250 plus customers added, not everything reflected in the new order book, open order book. So, I think we are fairly happy. Of course, with new orders, you can always be happier if you do better. But in general, I think it’s been a good year.

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

Got that. So, sir how do you see, basically — I mean, because as you said that the growth is partial from new order book as well as from the existing order book. So it is primarily divided 50-50 kind of. So basically going into the next year, as you had added 250 kind of a customer in C&E, so should we see that accelerated new order book growth in ’24?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

It’ll be more than — yeah, we are — I mean 250 customers are not just in C&E. It’s across both. But, yeah, a lot of them are corporates. And this, definitely, we are gunning for faster revenue growth next year than what it was this year.

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

Okay. So, I’m just trying to understand, should we like assume because see, sir, your new order book, if I see from ’22 to ’23, had largely remained flat? And if I see ’20 to ’21, there was like 50% kind of a growth or probably more than 50% kind of growth. So going into ’24, do you see an extraordinary order book growth — new order book growth because of what all accumulation we did in ’23?

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

Order book. Okay. Let me help you a bit. There is nothing that says that there cannot be an order booking growth during ’24 more than ’23. There is nothing that says it won’t. But the second part also please understand that adding more customers like 250 more customers in the overall, which doesn’t result into the — I mean, that also is a sign that the order growth can happen. So not just by order booking open order, but also the orders that happen during the year and gets consumed because of the nature of the business of APIs or devices like that.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Yeah. And also just to clarify that 245 number you are saying is for fixed pricing in FY ’22. It’s not for automotive. Fixed pricing means we have this fixed kind of — we are assured that value no matter what just by the flex of time. And volume means based on volume, meaning that we have projected or contracted to achieve a certain volume by the customer for which we will get paid as that volume happens. So it’s — just if you want to read that and understand that later.

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

Okay. Fine, sir. Fine. And sir, like in terms of the — as you indicated that the next year growth would be something around 40%, so in this 40% if you can break it up, like how much would be from the auto and how much would be from the consumer tech, enterprise business?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

I think we’ll let that happen something and we let it unfold. I mean, see, you have a track record, not that it’s a secret or anything. But the point is how things shape up in the years, what we do with the IoT-led business. It’s not necessarily that we can predict everything. We have a sense based on our open order book where A&M and C&E will go, but also there’s new order bookings and new sales to be done, right? So can’t exactly tell you a number. But you have a track record to reflect on.

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

Okay. So basically, what I was trying to understand like this 40% growth confidence, I mean, is it coming from the existing kind of an order book? Or is it also built with the new booking, which you are expecting to come, let’s say, [Speech Overlap]

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Part of it is coming from the open order, to be honest, I mean.

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

Hello?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Yeah, a lot of the confidence is coming from the open order book, plus we believe that we’ll do new order booking.

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

Okay. So then basically, sir, you would be like, internally, you would be clear, right, from where the growth is largely going to be driven?

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

Yeah. Like any company, we also make a plan and work out with a very fine detail so that the team starts working on that. And based on all that, the confidence has come that, yes, there is no reason why we will not have a revenue growth of at least 40%.

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

I got it. And sir, one last number, if it is possible to you. What would be, let’s say, the full year auto and consumer tech revenue full-year basis FY ’23 in total?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Sorry, your question was last year, what was the C&E revenue?

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

Yeah. I’m saying FY ’23 full-year basis, what would be the auto and what would be the consumer tech revenues?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Those numbers are there. 130 of C&E and 150 for A&M.

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

150 for A&M and 130 for C&E. Thank you, sir.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

I think we have multiple people waiting in line. Maybe you can…

Amar Mourya — AlfAccurate Advisors — Analyst

Thank you, sir. Yeah. I’ll come back in queue, sir. Thank you, sir. Thanks a lot.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Moez Chandani from Centrum Broking. Please go ahead.

Moez Chandani — Centrum Broking Limited — Analyst

Yeah. Good evening. Thank you for taking my question. So, my first question was on the A&M business. So, we’ve been at the INR40 crores sort of a revenue mark for the past three quarters. And this is assuming that Gtropy contribution whatever is coming in A&M would have been increasing. So is it fair to say that ex of Gtropy, the A&M revenues would be declining for the past few quarters? Any color that you could add to that?

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

We have disclosed how much is the IoT-led business in the presentation. It says very clearly the IoT-led business is how much? INR60 crore and INR220 crores is — INR222 crore or something is for the Map-led business. So it’s not Gtropy. You can say IoT-led. Now, IoT-led doesn’t mean — and out of that, we have also disclosed how much was devices and how much was SaaS. So, there nothing has gone down.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Yeah. See, Q4 is a seasonally weak quarter for automotive. So, I don’t think — look at the trend on a sequential quarter basis, look at the years. And so that’s my…

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

I mean I’ll add a little bit more. Unfortunately, the more we try to look at sequentially or quarter-by-quarter, we are also unable to analyze that way. Somehow our focus is very clear for the year to achieve. We had set a goal for ourselves last year in the beginning of the year that we must attain 40% of revenue growth. We must attain — actually, it was like this that we must cross this three-digit or INR100 crores milestone for the PAT, like that we set up. So, this quarter-by-quarter is something, which we have to keep working every day I know and we add up the quarter, it becomes the year, that’s known. But we don’t mess up too much that shifting from this quarter to that quarter.

Moez Chandani — Centrum Broking Limited — Analyst

Sure. Okay. Thank you for that. My next question was on the consumer business. So, you did launch your Mappls Gadgets sometime in February. So has there been any revenue contribution from that? And are you expecting any significant revenue contribution from that segment in FY ’24?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Yeah. See Mappls Gadgets, we publicly launched it, but we’ve been selling it through the distribution network. So the retail outlets, car showrooms, car accessory shops or the automotive, genuine accessory route for a while now. With Mappls Gadgets, now the brand and promotion and marketing and then online stuff will also start kicking in. And, of course, we will expand distribution. So I mean, A, it’s already doing well. But, B, yes, in this year, we will look to expand the visibility reach and hence, sales of Mappls Gadgets in a big way. And that’s what is one of the aspects of kind of what growth we are seeing.

Moez Chandani — Centrum Broking Limited — Analyst

Sure. Okay. Thank you, sir. Thank you for your time.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Thanks.

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

We’ll move to the next. Hi Anmol? Are we connected?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

We can’t hear anybody on the other side. We are connected, but I don’t know. Anmol, are you there or the moderator? We can’t hear anybody. Anmol, we can’t hear anyone. Probably you’re hearing us.

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

We are not able to hear.

Operator

This is the operator. Sorry for the interruption.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Yeah. Now we can hear you.

Operator

Yes. We’ll take the next question from the line of Pooja Ahuja from Monarch Networth Capital. Please go ahead.

Pooja Ahuja — Monarch Networth Capital Ltd. — Analyst

Yeah. Hi. Thanks for the opportunity. Sir, firstly, wanted to understand, earlier in your interview today, you mentioned that INR60 crores is the revenue from Gtropy. But when I look at your presentation, it’s the entire IoT business revenue. So just wanted to understand what’s the share of Gtropy here?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

No. I didn’t at all INR60 crores was Gtropy. I said IoT-led, okay? Some of that might have come from — I mean, a large part would have come from Gtropy, but some would have come from MapmyIndia also. So just for clarity sake, IoT-led is INR60 crores.

Pooja Ahuja — Monarch Networth Capital Ltd. — Analyst

Right. Sure. So since it’s INR60 crores, it’s almost like 20% of your revenue for the full year. Wanted to understand where do you see this share going in the next couple of years? And in that case, what could be the impact? Because if the share is increasing, maybe the next couple of years we could see margin compressing? And then probably we could see as SaaS revenue picks up, the impact coming on the — the positive impact sort of coming on the margins. Maybe the next couple of years you could see margins decline.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

See, the scale, there is operating leverage in each of our businesses, even in the Map-led business side, right? So as the Map-led business grows, that will also contribute to margins. And that has its own strong outlook, which is that you are seeing that in the INR700 crores open order book for Map-led. IoT, I mean, we see a large headroom for growth, so we will go after. But we’ll keep in mind what margins we want to have. But, again, IoT might grow faster or might grow in line with the company. I don’t want to predict where the exact shares will be. But overall, at least for the upcoming years, we can give a sense.

Pooja Ahuja — Monarch Networth Capital Ltd. — Analyst

Okay. Yeah. That’s it from my end. And my other questions have been answered. Thank you.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Anirudh Agarwal from ValueQuest Investment Advisors. Please go ahead.

Anirudh Agarwal — ValueQuest Investment Advisors — Analyst

Yeah. Hi. Thanks on the auto segment and sorry to keep harping on this, but I’ll just ask it straight. Has there been any pricing pressure that you’re seeing in any of the Automotive and Mobility revenue, right? Because in a quarter where overall industry volumes seem to have grown, we have degrown auto revenue ex of IoT. So that was kind of hard to understand. So, is there any pricing pressure that you’re seeing?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

I think I explained again. I don’t know why this question is coming that auto degrown ex-IoT. All IoT does not fall in A&M. It’s partial in A&M, partial in C&E. And also the second thing this quarter and what is not the right way to look on MapmyIndia’s business, especially auto. So, I mean it’s not just auto in general. So this — if you look at it, yes, volume growth has been from 1.3 million to 1.9 million. Even two wheelers are growing as the contribution of us, this thing, but doesn’t mean four wheelers not. So I mean, I would like to dispel that notion that auto revenue [Speech Overlap]

Anirudh Agarwal — ValueQuest Investment Advisors — Analyst

No. But even if you look at it on a year-on-year basis, the overall A&M revenue growth is at 2% rate and obviously, the IoT revenue grows whatever share [Speech Overlap]

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

If you are talking about Q4 year-on-year, I explained that whole semiconductor shortage. Q3 of FY ’22 or in Q4 of FY ’22 to be higher on artificially. Year-on-year is 34%, which has grown. So where is the question of de-growth?

Anirudh Agarwal — ValueQuest Investment Advisors — Analyst

Okay. I’ll take it offline. But overall, industry volumes, Q4 to Q4 have grown, right? That’s where the question was largely coming from and ideally, the attach rate should only have increased versus the last year given what’s happening on SUVs and two-wheelers.

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

Also to please do — whatever you want to ask, ask, there is no problem. We are there to answer. But do the annual analysis rather than this quarter-by-quarter analysis. Honestly, we also try to avoid it because it’s not the way we are running the business. We are running the business to ensure that on an annual basis what we set ourselves for the goals, we try to achieve that. We do not set our goals for quarters.

Anirudh Agarwal — ValueQuest Investment Advisors — Analyst

No, right. Absolutely understand that. That’s okay. My next question was on the IoT bit. So if my understanding is correct, I mean, largely, the IoT revenues will be coming from the B2B segment currently, right?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Some of it comes from B2C also, but…

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

Mappls Gadgets.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Mappls Gadgets.

Anirudh Agarwal — ValueQuest Investment Advisors — Analyst

Okay. Understood. So the question largely coming from the fact that, obviously, given that B2B one year SaaS is free, so the margins will optically look lower right now if a larger share of revenue is from B2B. But if I remember from the last discussion, we were seeing that SaaS revenue was 30%, 35% of the hardware revenue, if I remember, right? So ideally, the objective would be that as B2B hardware keeps growing, SaaS keeps kicking in and then the margins see a jack-up kind of increase, right, because you said IoT growth will also not be significantly higher with this company growth going ahead like it has been in the last couple of years.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

You’re right about the first part. The second part, I said that its — what the IoT-led growth will be? Our IoT-led business will decide and we’ll do that in the overall structure, how much growth we want to have. The headroom is quite high. We can go after even larger growth. We could have even gone after larger growth in this last year of the IoT. But we consciously want to also keep some fiscal guardrails. So it will be a question of how much we calibrate, how much growth we want to go after for the IoT. And if we feel that we can do that in a way which we do, we are quite bullish on this, we will continue to invest behind the growth of that business. It is already reaping good results.

Anirudh Agarwal — ValueQuest Investment Advisors — Analyst

Got it. And final question on the order inflows during this year and the new customer acquisition that we’re talking about. So is the mix of new customers that you’re acquiring now materially different versus what we were doing earlier and hence, those numbers are not reflecting in the contractual order inflows?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

No. I mean, of course, the mix of the business will change when IoT is becoming a larger part. But when you lock in a customer for a particular contract for a longer-term, they can also ask for some more discount, right? Whereas if you allow the customer to have the flexibility, then they will give you a higher rate and when we know that their usage is only going to grow.

So, I mean it’s a little bit how we mutually agree with the customers. For us, we want to get the customers where we can not just sell the service that we have contracted to sell them, but upsell them also. So that’s why I said, look at it holistically. But material change, we are adding on to our business. There’s no material change for us. We are adding on a focus on IoT to our overall consolidated business.

Anirudh Agarwal — ValueQuest Investment Advisors — Analyst

Understood. Fair enough. Thanks.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Pratyush Agarwal from White Oak. Please go ahead.

Pratyush Agarwal — White Oak Capital Management — Analyst

Hello. Hi? Am I audible?

Operator

Yes. You are audible.

Pratyush Agarwal — White Oak Capital Management — Analyst

Yeah. Good evening, Rohan and Rakesh ji. So just one clarification on the growth, 40% number, right? So this 40% number, I’m assuming from currently what we’re seeing is the organic component. We’re not building in any kind of inorganic element in this number, right?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

No.

Pratyush Agarwal — White Oak Capital Management — Analyst

Sure. And also sort of to better understand Gtropy, right, so when we did the acquisition FY ’21 number, Gtropy was doing something like INR8 crores a year, right? And right now, the previous comment you sort of made that our IoT is roughly INR60 crores. Gtropy would be a significant part of that. Let’s say it’s INR30 crores. So I mean, sort of I want to understand what has happened that we’ve been able to sort of almost four times it in a short period of time, if you could just help with that.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Yeah. Correct. So I mean, of course, we have moved a lot of our operations for IoT, all the device, etc., all the hardware stuff to the Gtropy as a company. So Gtropy has its own customers, which are independent of C.E. Info. MapmyIndia is the parent company and sells its own customers independent of us. But MapmyIndia has many customers still who we sell IoT to, but when we get that order, we then subcontracted out to Gtropy. In the consolidated, obviously, it doesn’t matter. It gets net of. So hence, that’s why we are using this word IoT-led to give you a sense of kind of — so that’s one.

And the second is really the — this is why we wanted to actually — it’s kind of an actually higher we did, you can think of. We paid INR13 crores. This was a solid team, which had a full organization, cross-functional, generating INR8 crores. But obviously, they didn’t have cash. They didn’t have that cash to either sustain or to grow. MapmyIndia has a pretty strong cash balance of INR484 crores, so we could help them be a bit freer and go after the larger market and it also freed up some management bandwidth or bandwidth at our end within the core company, where the operations was being taken care of by a focused team procurement, etc., all that hardware cost engineering. And our team could be freer in terms of going and getting the business from our existing set of customers.

So, I mean it’s been a very thought out integration of Gtropy over the last 15 months. I mean, Mr. Verma has taken a personal kind of focus on enabling this integration to go well. And I mean, this is just generally the method that MapmyIndia as a company has followed for 28 years, being methodical, deliberate, etc., in trying to create a sustainable growing business. So I mean, we are happy that within the first year itself, we could turn it in the way that we were thinking and it’s setting up a good platform for the time to come. And we are quite bullish on IoT and Gtropy.

Pratyush Agarwal — White Oak Capital Management — Analyst

Sure. And just sort of a follow-up, right? So in the current structure, as it stands, the Gtropy part of, let’s say, whatever revenue that you are able to isolate would mostly be on the A&M part, is that a fair understanding?

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

It will be a mix of A&M and C&E.

Pratyush Agarwal — White Oak Capital Management — Analyst

Okay. And what would be the rough split, if you could help with that?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

I don’t have it off hand.

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

We can later let you know if you get in touch with us.

Pratyush Agarwal — White Oak Capital Management — Analyst

Sure. No worries. Thank you. Thank you so much for taking the questions.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Vidyadhar Ginde from Soham Asset Managers. Please go ahead.

Vidyadhar Ginde — Sohum Asset Managers Private Limited — Analyst

Yeah. Thank you. So my first question is, you have indicated in the last quarter in your interview to CNBC today also that you’re guiding about 40% revenue growth over 40% margin. So would you be confident enough or willing to give at least a soft guidance of a similar revenue growth and EBITDA margin for a two-year, three-year perspective? Would you rather wait for next year the order book to build up and give that kind of a guidance?

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

I mean I can share some other way. The same thing, based on what the headroom is there for us, whether it’s in the Map-led business or IoT business and what the order booking that has already happened and the way we are operating. If somebody asked me a question, do you see the light at the end of the tunnel of reaching a INR1,000 crores company, I will say, certainly, yes. And with a 40% growth or something like that, you can easily calculate how — even at that level, how long it will take. That’s the better answer than what you were asking.

Vidyadhar Ginde — Sohum Asset Managers Private Limited — Analyst

Sure. So I’ll go to my next question. See, you have great revenue growth, excellent EBITDA margin, great ROCE, ROE. You have also generated excellent cash flow this year. I think if at all anything is underwhelming, it appears to be the fact that while your revenue is up 40%, EBITDA is up 37%, your net profit is up just 23% — 24%. And that’s mainly because your high-margin business hasn’t grown as strongly — has grown far less strongly than the overall revenue growth.

So what I really wanted to understand is when do you see that changing, whereby your profit growth is more in sync with — it’s not at least 16 percentage points below your revenue growth. So either the Map-led business, which is the high margin business needs to grow more strongly than it is, or the IoT business needs to — the margin needs to ramp up. When do you see this happening?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Both have their own independent paths and both are gunning for [Speech Overlap]

Vidyadhar Ginde — Sohum Asset Managers Private Limited — Analyst

Fair enough. So when do you see this — because I think if that happens, if let’s say, this time around your profit growth is 35%. I think we probably would not have a lot of the questions you had today. Everybody is asking in different ways. I think their main problem is that your revenue EBITDA growth is 40%, 37%, but PAT has grown by just 24% because if that number is closer to your revenue growth, I think a lot of these questions will disappear in mind. Even that’s what I am trying to understand from you because you understand the company [Speech Overlap]

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

We’ll take it as good input.

Vidyadhar Ginde — Sohum Asset Managers Private Limited — Analyst

No, no. Where I’m coming from is, where do you see — when do you see that happening, that your profit growth is more in sync with your revenue growth? Not really 44%, at least 30%, 35%.

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

Profit growth is 24%, right?

Vidyadhar Ginde — Sohum Asset Managers Private Limited — Analyst

That’s right.

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

And the revenue growth is 40%.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Profit growth should also be 40% like.

Vidyadhar Ginde — Sohum Asset Managers Private Limited — Analyst

No, I’m not saying 40%. But the delta is too big. I think that is where I think a lot of questions were.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

So that’s what I’m saying. Not 40% but something closer to that.

Vidyadhar Ginde — Sohum Asset Managers Private Limited — Analyst

Like 30%, 35%. That’s what I’m saying. So either the map — because see, what really happened is that maps business, if I look at standalone revenue, it’s up just 28%, so you’ve got 40% because of the IoT, Gtropy and all. But that’s hardly got any margin. So either that margin needs to ramp up quickly in a year or two or your Map-led business needs to grow stronger, whereby at least the — you continue to grow at 40% revenue and profit growth is at least 30%, 35%. I think that is what will make investors more happy and a lot of these questions, which I think people are trying to — my belief is probably that, that is at the root cause. That is why everybody is asking from different ways trying to — try to get to that answer. They want a stronger earnings growth. So the business, which is very profitable is probably not able to grow.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

I mean the points are great. I don’t know whether we are optimizing on our [Speech Overlap]

Vidyadhar Ginde — Sohum Asset Managers Private Limited — Analyst

So, I’m only saying — see, what you’re doing is the best thing for the company because maps, as you add these businesses, their margins will grow. At some stage, you will get there. But I’m only trying to understand when do you see that happening? Do you think it will take two years, three years, five years, six years where the revenue growth also [Speech Overlap]

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

See, these are independent, I mean Map-led and IoT-led together, we are very powerful. It’s a very unique combination and that’s what makes us different. But Map-led has its own trajectory, I mean, whether to automotive companies or mobility or consumer type.

Vidyadhar Ginde — Sohum Asset Managers Private Limited — Analyst

No, I’m not going into those details like everybody else is. Simpler question I’m trying to understand is that when do you see your revenue growth also 35%, 40%. Less than 40% is fine. But if your profit growth is going to be 30%, 35% and revenue is 35%, fine. So that’s what I’m trying to understand. When will your profit growth be would say, at least percentage points? When do we see that happening?

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

Your point is well taken. And we’ll see what does that mean? We’ll also do some calculation to figure out. No problem. But let me ask you, is 24% growth in the — or 30% growth, that makes a big difference is what you are trying to tell me?

Vidyadhar Ginde — Sohum Asset Managers Private Limited — Analyst

I think 30% is a bit of a comparison. See, I’ll tell you one thing. Your company is a very new company. All of us are just trying to understand the company. If somebody who’s been around and is a much bigger company grows at 35% — for them 25%, 30% is fine. For you, as you may be aware also, most investors in small cap or mid-cap stocks, they want stronger stocks which do much better. The growth — the stocks they need — those stocks to do much better than a large-cap stock. So it’s that basically. I think that is where because your company is an excellent company.

I think the only thing missing piece is the PAT. That’s where things are there and you’re probably doing your best from what I hear from you doing your best. So if I think you are able to give people visibility that the profit growth is going to be more in sync with revenue growth and revenue growth will remain high 30%, 35%, 40%, doesn’t need to be 40%. But if that’s going to take two years, three years, I think that is where I think the last missing piece will sort of fall in place in my view.

Nitin Sharma — Moneycontrol Pro Research — Analyst

[Foreign Speech] Good. At least you have opened my eyes. So, we’ll look into that. Thank you.

Vidyadhar Ginde — Sohum Asset Managers Private Limited — Analyst

Yeah. Thanks.

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

We will move to the next.

Vidyadhar Ginde — Sohum Asset Managers Private Limited — Analyst

Yeah. Sure.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Paras Bothra from Ashika India Alpha Fund. Please go ahead.

Paras Bothra — Ashika India Alpha Fund — Analyst

Thank you for the opportunity. So, I have one basic question. This is with regard to the business model, wherein do you give data with regard to how much percentage of your sales is subscription-led?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

I think we give the data in various splits. I think they are in the investor deck. So, I think I’ll refer you to that.

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

It will be a very long answer. It’s not in one simple way. Since we are a platform and a product company, we are not a plain-vanilla services company that somebody asks us to make data for them, and then we just hand it over like that. We are not that. And that’s the uniqueness we have with everybody else in this industry.

Paras Bothra — Ashika India Alpha Fund — Analyst

Sure. I understand. Sir, I was going through the presentation, but it was not there. So, I thought of asking you that what percentage of it is. So, I’ll take off record some time.

So the second question is with regard to the IoT-led business. You said in your presentation that we sold 1.9 plus lakh IoT devices and you said that the opportunity could be 20 plus crores vehicles. So in terms of value, what would be the opportunity size, just wanted to understand?

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

In terms of value of?

Paras Bothra — Ashika India Alpha Fund — Analyst

This 20-plus crores vehicles when you say what kind of opportunity [Speech Overlap]

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

I said that’s the TAM, total addressable market.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Value can be very, very high. That’s the whole point that we are trying to make. I mean, we are at 60 crores right now with IoT-led with 1.9 lakhs or 2 lakhs, let’s say, devices.

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

100 times more, 20 lakhs.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Orders of magnitude — we’re not saying that we’ll get all that, I mean, not all vehicles.

Rakesh Kumar Verma — Co-Founder, Chairman & Managing Director

And we don’t visualize getting all of them even in a long shot. There will be other players also.

Paras Bothra — Ashika India Alpha Fund — Analyst

Okay. And third question and the final question. This is with regard to the employee cost. So on an annualized basis, if I look at your employee cost is 24%, which has come down from 29% Y-o-Y. So what do you think that in long term, say, from a three-year to five-year perspective, with the kind of service offerings and the platform-led businesses you have, do you think that this cost is going to move proportionately or come down as a percentage of sales?

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Proportionate [Phonetic] to growth in revenue, for sure, the product and platform. We are looking to always add two sets of people, higher skills, technical people and also, of course, a little bit on the sales side because those two things help us. I mean, A, on one side, improved products or scale products. And on the other side, help us get customers, but it will obviously not grow as fast as the revenue. And that’s the operating leverage in the company.

Paras Bothra — Ashika India Alpha Fund — Analyst

Fine. So, that’s all from my side. Thank you so much, and all the best. Yeah.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that would be our last question for today. I’d now like to hand over the conference to the management for closing comments. Over to you, sir.

Rohan Verma — Chief Executive Officer and Executive Director

I just want to say thank you to those people who are there. And I hope that you’ve seen a good track record in the last four quarters, five quarters. We are obviously aspiring to build a very, very large company, differentiated on technology and products and platforms. And with that ambition and aspiration while working steadily, we hope to achieve that.

So thank you for being on the journey with us.

Operator

[Operator Closing Remarks]