Balrampur Chini Mills Ltd (BALRAMCHIN) Q4 FY23 Earnings Concall Transcript

Balrampur Chini Mills Ltd (NSE:BALRAMCHIN) Q4 FY23 Earnings Concall dated May. 12, 2023.

Corporate Participants:

Jenny Rose — Investor Relations of CDR India

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

Avantika Saraogi — Business Lead

Analysts:

Rajesh Majumdar — B&K Securities — Analyst

Nishant Sharma — Nuvama Wealth Research — Analyst

Pratik Tholiya — Systematix Group — Analyst

Kaustubh Pawaskar — Sharekhan by BNP Paribas — Analyst

Shailesh Kanani — Centrum Broking — Analyst

Presentation:

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, good day, and Welcome to Balrampur Chini Mills Limited Earnings Conference Call. [Operator Instructions] And there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. [Operator Instructions]

I now hand the conference over to Ms. Jenny Rose from CDR India. Thank you, and over to you.

Jenny Rose — Investor Relations of CDR India

Good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining us on Balrampur Chini Mills’ Q4 and FY 2023 results conference call. We have with us today Mr. Vivek Saraogi, Chairman and Managing Director; Ms. Avantika Saraogi, Business Lead; and Mr. Pramod Patwari, Chief Financial Officer of the company. We will initiate the call with opening remarks from the management, following which we will have the forum opened for a question-and-answer session.

Before we begin, I would like to point out that some statements made in today’s call may be forward-looking in nature and a disclaimer to this effect has been included in the results presentation shared with you earlier.

I would now like to invite Mr. Saraogi to make his opening remarks. Over to you, Mr. Saraogi.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Yeah. Thank you, and good afternoon, everyone, and thank you for joining us on the Q4 FY 2023 call of our earnings. I trust all of you had the opportunity to go through the results presentation, providing details of our operational and financial performance. I will initiate the call with an update on the current developments on the sugar sector, followed by our company’s key highlights for the period under review.

ISMA has lowered its projections for overall production during the ’22-’23 season from 34 million metric tonnes to 32.8 million metric tonnes. This factors in about a 4 million metric tonnes diversion from sugar to ethanol. The crushing season in Maharashtra concluded with the production of about 10.5 million metric tonnes. This was against 12.1 million metric tonnes, which was projected earlier, primarily due to lower yields. In contrast, UP production — Pramod, could be 106 million? 10.5 million metric tonnes to 10.6 million metric tonnes. Karnataka is estimated at 5.7 million metric tonnes as compared to 6.2 million metric tonnes. So, in a nutshell, UP has gone up about 5% to 10% — 10.2% — about 3% to 4% UP has gone up and the rest have come down. Furthermore, sugar mills have almost completed the export quota of 6 million metric tonnes, and I believe it’s been shipped out from not only the mills, but also majorly out of the ports — Pramod, how much could have left the ports?

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

Maybe, [Indecipherable]?

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

From the port? Yeah. So, it’s basically evacuated. And given the drop in production, the government is focused on ensuring adequate domestic supply, obviously based on the production, consumption and export numbers, we will have a closing stock of about 6 million tonnes and hence, there is no probability of any further export. This also means that there is a very fine balance of demand and supply, which is positive for the pricing. It should keep pricing in farmstead.

On the ethanol front, India is making progress. We’re in blending with ethanol with petrol and the target of — towards the target of achieving 20% blending. Ethanol supply to OMCs have risen to 434 crores liter in 2021. To meet the 20% target the government is promoting, production of ethanol from maize crops as well, but that seems to be a little part of. The target is to reach 12% blending in ’22-’23, which is the current season, 15% in ’23-’24, and going up to 20% thereafter. This would require a capacity of — 20% would require a capacity of 1,700 crore liters.

The auto industry is adapting with fuel — flexible vehicles and E20 ethanol pumps have been launched in more than 100 outlets. Also, the auto companies have started — Pramod, from 1st April all the vehicles should be able to take E20? So, they’ve also sort of been able to re-engineer or enable the engines to adopt E20 from 1st April. Ethanol production has also benefited the sugar industry and the farmers.

On the business front, company concluded the year on a positive note on account of steady contribution from sugar and distillery segment. Despite a moderate performance in the nine preceding months, due to lower crushing volume in the previous years, the company witnessed an improvement in Q4 2023, primarily owing to enhanced ethanol capacity utilization across segments — our capacity utilization.

During the quarter, cane crushing was higher due to increased cane area and improved yield at the farm level. So, if I can brief, we have crushed 10.3 crore quintals of cane against 8.88 crore quintals, and that is an increase of about 15% over last year. Our recovery approximately is almost final. Last year would be 11.46%.

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

11.47%.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

11.47% on a blended level of C-heavy. And this year we would be about 11.62%. So that is an improvement of about 15 bps with — increase in percentage of 15%, so both have gone up. And this, as you are aware, the last two years, were ruined because of excess rain in very short periods of time.

Turning to distillery business, capacities are now being optimally used. We are confident in our ability to reach the target of 34 crore liters to 35 crore liters of alcohol production. Additionally, the company is embarked on a project to increase cane crushing at its Kumbhi unit from 8,000 TCD to 10,000 TCD, which will be financed through internal accruals and which would be commissioned tried to cane crushing in the next year.

The company has allocated more than INR1,100 crores towards capex in FY 2023, out of which INR466 crores has been raised through debt financing, while remaining funds have been sourced through internal accruals. These strategic investments will enable us to drive growth in future.

In conclusion, the company is dedicated to generating value for all the stakeholders through prudent investment and capital allocation strategies. Keeping this in mind, an interim dividend of INR2.5 per share was paid during the year. Additionally, we commenced our 6th consecutive buyback of equity shares on 16th November, and we have bought back a total of 22.9 lakh shares. The buyback is open till 15th May, but the — it’s beyond the permitted price. This brings me to the end of our discussion. I would request Avantika to provide you an update on the progress on the cane front. Yes, Avantika.

Avantika Saraogi — Business Lead

Good afternoon, and thank you, everyone, for Joining the call. I’d like to give you a short overview of the cane activities. Our cane plantation is almost complete for the year. The total area under cane has again increased by an additional 7% to 9% for the upcoming year. This shows a further hike in cane availability in the season to come. Area of disease ridden and degenerating fuels, CO 0238, is reducing drastically every year. We stood at around 75% crush just two years ago and the year gone by we have already come down to 46% crush and by the next year we will drop to only a 27% crush for…

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

For 238 [Phonetic].

Avantika Saraogi — Business Lead

Of 0238, yeah. Not the total [Phonetic]. This is — this will not only improve the recovery to the tune of its reduction, but also the incidence of disease will reduce due to the sparseness of it, and it will also make it easier to identify and salvage the disease brought thought thereafter. The area of 0238, which has been reduced, has been taken over by a higher recovery varieties like CO 0118, which we had only around 4%, 5% two years ago and this year we have crushed approximately 20% of it and it will increase by a further 13% for the upcoming year, putting us at a total of 33% for the upcoming year. This variety has proven its superior recovery and good yields in the factories, which have crushed a higher percentage of it this year. Other than this, new and higher recovery varieties which we have — which we crushed a negligible amount of this year have also increased to the tune of 8% crush for nest year. Therefore, in a nutshell, we again set up for an even higher crush and an even higher recovery in the upcoming season.

Other than this, we have faced a lot of climatic disruption and we have worked very, very hard on mitigating any sort of climate risk, be it high temperatures, drought, flood, heavy wind, etc., we have worked, and we’ll continue to work on climate smart agriculture to shield ourselves from any drastic changes, which can occur for cane quantity and quality year-on-year.

Another fear which has really picked up is ratoon management. Credit to our cane staffs, but now we have farmers who have really adopted this idea of working on ratooned crop, which was never a practice in East UP. This will also help total crush and recovery. We have also done cane payments at a consistent eight to 10 days post-supply basis, which is — even before it becomes due at a 14-day according to the government norms. This has created immense goodwill at the farmer level and it helps us motivate them to plant good varieties and do all necessary agri practices in order to keep the crops lush and healthy. Lastly, programs like tissue culture and seed nursery are on and going well. This will ensure long term healthy cane supply. That’s it for the cane front. Thanks a lot.

Operator

Should we start? Sorry, sir. Please go ahead.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Yeah. So, basically, that was a rundown on the cane front. I now request Pramod for some remarks and then we can go to the Q&A.

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

Thank you, and good afternoon, everyone. I hope all of you had the opportunity to go through the presentation that has been shared, wherein all the financials and quantitative data have been given. To ensure that we have a larger portion of time for Q&A session, I would request the moderator to open the forum. Thank you.

Questions and Answers:

Operator

Thank you, sir. We will now begin the question-and-answer session. [Operator Instructions] We have our first question from the line of Rajesh Majumdar from B&K Securities. Please go ahead.

Rajesh Majumdar — B&K Securities — Analyst

Yeah. Good afternoon, sir, and congratulations on a good number. I had a question on the ethanol supply program of the government. If we look at it that we are talking about 600 crore liters this ethanol year 2022-2023, of which you said about 518 crore liters tenders have already been finalized. Now, why is the offtake so poor? Till 23rd April, only 220 crore liters has been delivered. I wanted the answer to that?

And, secondly, even if you look at our own ethanol sales for the quarter, it is about 2 crores liter short of the production, which has never happened before. So, is there any worry on that that our ethanol sales, though, we are targeting 34 crores liter, 35 crores liter, we may actually be far shorter because of the lower crop this year? That was my first question.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Pramod?

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

So, the oil marketing companies came out with 600 crores of ethanol requirement for the 2022-2023 ethanol year. Subsequently, there was a revision in the cycle. They reduced the period from 12 months to 11 months. So, on that basis, on 12% blending, the consumption requirement would be around 500 crores liter…

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

For the 11 months.

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

For the 11 months. And they are trying to build up a storage for around 50 crores liter to 60 crores liter. So, against, 550 crores liter to 560 crore liter, I believe, 518 crore liter has already been contracted. This is the position as of now.

As far as Balrampur Chini Mills is concerned, so there was some delay in start as well as stabilization of distilleries, so that — as a result of which, the production was on the lower side. But if you see the inventory number of ethanol, alcohol, as of 31st March, we are holding 2.27 crores liter against last year’s number of around 60 lakh liters. So, some dispatches had happened in the last week of March. And as you must be knowing that the ethanols are — revenues are accounted for only on delivered goods basis, so there was in transit, ethanol was in transit around 50 to — 50 lakh liters [Speech Overlap]

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

So, you are saying, effective stock is 1.5 crores liter?

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

`In addition to that, there was slow [Speech Overlap]

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

I’ll handle it. So just to add to what Pramod said, so oil marketing companies need a steady stream of supply for the year. So, some stocking, which happened at our end, marginally higher than last year, so that in the week, months of July, August, September, when most people don’t produce, we will produce. There will be adequate availability of ethanol there in the last quarter, where people usually fail.

Rajesh Majumdar — B&K Securities — Analyst

Okay, sir. And out of this 513 crores liter, is it possible to know our market share in the tender?

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

Our — sorry, our…

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

You don’t need to say…

Rajesh Majumdar — B&K Securities — Analyst

Our tendered quantity. Our tendered quantity in that 513 crores liter, yes.

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

So, our tender quantity is 26.74 crores liter.

Rajesh Majumdar — B&K Securities — Analyst

Okay, sir. And this we hope to complete by ethanol year 2022-2023?

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

Correct.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Yeah. Before November.

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

Before November.

Rajesh Majumdar — B&K Securities — Analyst

Okay. Thank you. I’ll join back in the queue if there is anything.

Operator

Thank you. We have our next question from the line of Shailesh Kanani from Centrum Broking. Please go ahead.

Nishant Sharma — Nuvama Wealth Research — Analyst

Thanks for the opportunity, sir. Sir, I had couple of questions. First, on margin front, so Vivek sir has always been guiding that our margins on juice routes are similar to what we have in B-heavy molasses, but somehow this quarter around, there has been a sharp [Technical Issues] and I believe that this [Technical Issues].

Operator

Mr. Kanani, I’m sorry, you’re sounding muddled.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Yeah. He is breaking — you’re…

Nishant Sharma — Nuvama Wealth Research — Analyst

This is better?

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Yeah.

Nishant Sharma — Nuvama Wealth Research — Analyst

So, my question was, do you expect [Technical Issues] on the distillery front. Sir, you have been guiding juice route has similar margins as [Technical Issues].

Operator

I’m sorry, sir, we are not able to hear you.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

No, you are not audible.

Operator

I’ll just [Technical Issues] join back in the queue then. I’ll just [Technical Issues] a little better reception. Thank you. We have our next question from the line of Pratik Tholiya from Systematix. Please go ahead.

Pratik Tholiya — Systematix Group — Analyst

Yeah, sir. Hi, and thanks for the opportunity. Sir, just a quick clarification. In the fourth quarter, we’ve sold 4.3 crore liters of ethanol from syrup and grain route, can you split this between how much is syrup and how much is grain, or it was 100% syrup?

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

100% syrup.

Pratik Tholiya — Systematix Group — Analyst

100% syrup, okay. Thanks. And, sir, have we exported any sugar in fourth quarter, or we have sold our entire — the quota to Maharashtra?

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

I think, he is talking about export quota.

Pratik Tholiya — Systematix Group — Analyst

Yeah. Yeah. Sugar export.

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

Yeah. Out of 1.98 lakh tonnes of quota allocated to us, 1.4 lakh tonnes was met through physical exports and the balance was swapped [Technical Issues] domestic [Technical Issues].

Pratik Tholiya — Systematix Group — Analyst

Right. So, there is no sale of — physical sale in fourth quarter, right? Physical export in fourth quarter for us?

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

There is physical sale varieties and good recovery rates, what kind of expectations are in terms of production for upcoming season and season after that?

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Are you talking for Balrampur or for the country?

Kaustubh Pawaskar — Sharekhan by BNP Paribas — Analyst

For Balrampur. For Balrampur. Yeah.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

As we indicated to you, next year we are definitely looking at 10% higher, weather not playing fluent, super fluent. And maybe another 7% to 8% thereafter. So, our capacity — just to give everyone a flavor of our business protocol division between B-heavy, juice, sugar crushing, our assets on the ground today are sufficient and would need about INR12 crores for 100% sweating. And we hope to get that. Let’s say, you’ve done 1,030 lakh quintals this year, you’re looking at 10% more, so 11% [Phonetic] — 1,030 lakh quintals, 1,040 lakh quintals next year and thereafter easily 12%.

Kaustubh Pawaskar — Sharekhan by BNP Paribas — Analyst

Okay. Okay. Okay. Fine. And, sir, my second question is on the working capital. So, this year, obviously, because of the higher inventory, the working capital requirement come on the — on a higher side. But in one of your slides in the presentation, as the distillery contribution goes up, the working capital requirement will also moderate. So, in that context, should we expect the working capital days to come down over the next two to three years?

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

Yeah. You are absolutely right. The reason behind working capital utilization burnt up this time is because of the deployment of internal approvals into the capex. Has there been no capex, we could have seen the working capital utilization lower by INR500 crores at least.

Kaustubh Pawaskar — Sharekhan by BNP Paribas — Analyst

Okay.

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

As we grew up, there will be lower working capital utilization.

Kaustubh Pawaskar — Sharekhan by BNP Paribas — Analyst

Right, sir. Thanks. And, sir, one last one on the international front. So, in April, the Brazil production has gone by around 22 odd percent average [Phonetic] this year. So should we expect the international supply to go up considering the fact that the dilution towards being ethanol is a little bit on a lower side, because of the drop in the crude prices. So, in that context, should we expect supply to be a little bit higher on the international front and will it have any impact on sugar prices or sugar realization prices?

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

So, my interest would be, don’t go by this every fortnight release of data. Brazil’s production already expected is around 37 million tonnes to 38 million tonnes for the upcoming sugar season. That has already been factored in the interlinked international prices as well as the overall demand supply or sugar availability at the global level.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Basically, you need — to seek Indian prices, the more relevant data is India’s inventory, India’s upcoming production with an understanding that export as and when permitted should sell at a healthy price. All three of these boxes are ticking and ringing very loudly today. So, as Pramod said, we don’t need to look at any other data in case you are looking to track Indian sugar prices.

Kaustubh Pawaskar — Sharekhan by BNP Paribas — Analyst

Fine, sir. Got your point, sir. Thank you. Thanks for the understanding, and all the best for your future quarters.

Operator

Thank you. We have our next question from the line of Shailesh Kanani from Centrum Broking. Please go ahead.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Yes, Shailesh.

Shailesh Kanani — Centrum Broking — Analyst

Yes, sir. Thanks for the opportunity. Sir, my question was with respect to margins from juice route vis-a-vis B-heavy molasses. We have been guiding that the margins would be on the similar trend between juice route and B-heavy? And some of this quarter, the margins have taken a fall because of juice route sales basically. So, can we share some views on that, and, also, guidance going ahead for the distillery division?

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

We would not be — to — likely share the segment by its guidance as far as the profitability is concerned. But the profitability or the margin out of juice is definitely lower than the B-heavy. This is what we have seen in whatever period we have distilled.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Yeah. But as we go ahead, this margin will improve a bit, because we are first year with B-heavy. We tried various chemicals, combinations, towards the end we got a result, and we hope the margins — they should definitely improve.

Shailesh Kanani — Centrum Broking — Analyst

Okay. But the fall in margins seems to be very steep. That is the reason I was wondering that juice may — margins are very less or if you [Speech Overlap].

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

[Foreign Speech] [Speech Overlap]…

Shailesh Kanani — Centrum Broking — Analyst

See, these capacities are yet to be…

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Fully used.

Shailesh Kanani — Centrum Broking — Analyst

Fully utilized. Fully utilized. So that is also one of the reasons. Some fixed overhead [Speech Overlap].So that is also one of the reasons.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

[Foreign Speech]

Shailesh Kanani — Centrum Broking — Analyst

Yeah. There were some issues with respect to stabilization also.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

It takes some time for the brand-new thing. So, you — your concern or — don’t worry [Foreign Speech].

Shailesh Kanani — Centrum Broking — Analyst

Okay.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

You will see next year that they will be, like, touching each other, close to each other.

Shailesh Kanani — Centrum Broking — Analyst

Okay. So, my related question because of that was that, correct me if I’m wrong, so we are not in a Catch-22 situation, wherein we are facing margin pressure under juice route vis-a-vis B-heavy. And if we don’t take juice route, our volumes would not give a healthy jump as we are expecting, so that is not the situation, right?

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

That’s not the situation.

Shailesh Kanani — Centrum Broking — Analyst

Okay. So, this quarter can be taken as an…

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

Having said that — Shailesh, having said that…

Shailesh Kanani — Centrum Broking — Analyst

Yeah.

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

At the current juice-based ethanol prices…

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

That is lower. It is…

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

Margin is lower than B-heavy.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

B-heavy. But you’ve got to understand that all three things need to be done in order for the country to holistically move forward. And we definitely will improve from this year, but, as Pramod says, you cannot expect the same margin maybe. So, I’m just giving you another scenario. In four years from now, let’s say sugar production becomes excess and the global markets take a downfall, you will find that these two divisions are giving you the best return. So, you are hedging yourself into all three, based on a government program, which means the industry participation in order to fructify. Yes, as Pramod said, it will be lower, but it will definitely make up from here. Pramod, the gap will narrow, as we have seen in the last one month of working.

Shailesh Kanani — Centrum Broking — Analyst

So, sir, sorry to stress on this, but can we give a guidance on consolidated basis in that case if we are not comfortable with the [Speech Overlap] [Technical Issues]

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

Shailesh, [Speech Overlap].

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

[Foreign Speech].

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

Here, we don’t give guidance on the margin or profitability. [Speech Overlap].

Shailesh Kanani — Centrum Broking — Analyst

Okay. Fair enough. Fair enough. Sir, I missed one part of the call. Can you share the sugar volume and realization breakup between domestic and export for the quarter?

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

I think, that has already been shared in the presentation.

Shailesh Kanani — Centrum Broking — Analyst

Okay. I’ll just go through it then.

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

Yes.

Shailesh Kanani — Centrum Broking — Analyst

Sir, one more question. We have seen a timing difference in ethanol offtake for the fourth quarter. So, in light of that, do we revise our 35 crores liter — 34 crores liter, 35 crores liter of guidance…

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

No, no.

Shailesh Kanani — Centrum Broking — Analyst

For ethanol volume for the next year if that has 1.5 crores liter — yeah.

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

As of now, we look to supply 34 crores liter to 35 crores liter for FY 2024, but as the season progresses, we will update you.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

But there is no big sort of gap one needs to looking at.

Shailesh Kanani — Centrum Broking — Analyst

Okay. Sir, if I can squeeze in one last question. Sir, I am seeing some stock of syrup as well mentioned in the presentation and I was under the impression that syrup, obviously, can’t be stored, so if you can just share some light on that?

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

It’s a work in progress.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Well, it’s rotation. So, distillery, when you begin, you get feed in five days. So, it’s that which is rotating within the machines.

Shailesh Kanani — Centrum Broking — Analyst

Okay, sir. Thanks a lot, sir. I’ll come back in queue.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

And one more thing.

Shailesh Kanani — Centrum Broking — Analyst

Yeah.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

This year, we’ll begin a little late, because some of our expansions sort of got completed 15 days late owing to supply. And there was a lot of water in two, three factories. So, next year, hopefully with this ending of reduction, we should be able to begin an average of 10 days earlier for the whole company. So that itself will increase your ethanol supply.

Shailesh Kanani — Centrum Broking — Analyst

Fair enough. Best of luck, sir.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Yeah. Yeah.

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

Thank you.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

We are in good times. Good times [Phonetic].

Operator

Thank you. We have our next question from the line of Nishant Sharma from the Nuvama Wealth Research. Please go ahead.

Nishant Sharma — Nuvama Wealth Research — Analyst

Thank you for the opportunity, sir. Sir, my question is again related to margin. Just wanted to understand — while distillery segment is the highest grossing margin, this time around we have seen one-off kind of events which impacted the margins. But in terms of sugar sales in domestic and in international markets, where we would generally get better margins, maybe if you can help us understand where international prices needs to be certain percentage higher to be equal in domestic — getting margin sale in domestic as well as international markets?

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

See, you need to evaluate the performance of the company, of a sugar company on a company level basis, number one, and on an annual basis. March quarter will always be the best quarter, because of the fact that we get complete 92 days of production. And the fixed overheads get allocated or spread over a larger volume. This segment wise profitability is a function of transfer pricing.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Exactly.

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

If I want to assign a lower value for bagasse…

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Yeah.

Nishant Sharma — Nuvama Wealth Research — Analyst

Understood, sir. For distillery and sugar segment, I got it. I was asking for a spread between international — international — for an efficient [Phonetic] sugar in international market and if we sell sugar in domestic market, so what is the — I mean, price differential that would be needed for having similar margins, so that is what I just wanted to understand?

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

So, this is irrelevant at this point in time. We are selling sugar at around INR36.5 per kg in the domestic market as against the international prices of say around INR51 per kg. But nobody in the country has any quota to export sugar and that is the reason that these prices are ruling so high in the international market.

Nishant Sharma — Nuvama Wealth Research — Analyst

Okay. I’ll just switch to the other question. So, my next question is, sir, we have mentioned some levy of duty in the distillery segment, on molasses, what is that level of about INR7 crore, close to INR7 crore, is it one off or it’s a regular one?

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

No, it’s the regular one.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

The government of UP keeps imposing new fees, which one has no control over. We’ve also gone to court against this, but with no success yet.

Nishant Sharma — Nuvama Wealth Research — Analyst

Okay. But does such things happens every year, or this is more like changes in the rates happens every year?

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Not every year, but you know this…

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

This was introduced last year.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

This was…

Nishant Sharma — Nuvama Wealth Research — Analyst

This is as a percentage of something we can build in our — going forward, we can build in, because possibly this might have also impacted our margins?

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

I know it has impacted. But we agitated very hard. We don’t hope that such non-sense should repeat itself. But withdrawal of this is too difficult.

Nishant Sharma — Nuvama Wealth Research — Analyst

Okay. Last question, I can squeeze in. On the distillery side, is there any cyclicity from using whether we use B-heavy molasses or sugar syrup or grain-based like in quarter one or quarter two, quarter three, seasonality is there, sir?

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Sorry, didn’t get your question. I know it has impacted. But we agitated very hard. We don’t hope that such non-sense should repeat itself. But withdrawal of this is too difficult.

Nishant Sharma — Nuvama Wealth Research — Analyst

Sir, basically, in terms of manufacturing or producing ethanol, we use different raw material on the input side, so we use B-heavy molasses, we you sugar syrup, and now we have capacity for grain based as well, so we will be seeing any cyclicity while using this input, or this can be done in any given point of time? It could be interchangeable any quarter?

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

So, there are some — there is only one distillery which is compatible for making grain. That’s the Maizapur one. In season, it will run on syrup full. Off-season, it will run on grain. The rest, we have some — the rest are all B-heavy ones. One is C-heavy for country liquor. But, yes, they are interchangeable in terms of B can run on C, juice can run on B, but nobody can run on grain outside of Maizapur.

Nishant Sharma — Nuvama Wealth Research — Analyst

Okay, sir. I have few more questions. I’ll fall back in queue. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. We have our next question from the line of Rajesh Majumdar from B&K Securities. Please go ahead.

Rajesh Majumdar — B&K Securities — Analyst

Yeah, sir. Thanks for the opportunity again. Sir, I had a question on the capex in the sugar mills. What is the kind of output increase we envisage, or do we envisage at all from the modernization that we have done at the sugar mills level? I’m just talking about the sugar capex, not the distillery capex?

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

So, what we are going to get is higher cane availability and lesser losses, and old plant safety breakdowns, etc. So, if you — just to explain to you, East and West are two different zones. West, UP farmers have no problem if you’ve done up to middle of May, they don’t reduce cane. If you do that in East UP, they will reduce cane. So, we have got into a higher capacity. Now, this will enable us to crush what we need to go to INR12 crores by April end. So that will keep the recovery good, losses — less durability of supply on a longer basis.

Rajesh Majumdar — B&K Securities — Analyst

So, it will have an impact on the recovery whatever little bit it has, is it?

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Definitely. Positively. It can be impacted by not getting into the May month and lower losses.

Rajesh Majumdar — B&K Securities — Analyst

Okay. I was just wondering basically, because the capex is pretty significant, so what kind of a — like kind of return we want to see on that kind of investment we made in this company on the sugar side at least? Yeah.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Yeah. Let me explain to you the rationale behind these big investments. So, these were old plants and they needed to — the milling tandems, etc., needed to be changed for durability and for higher efficiency and safety. With that, we added juice into Balrampur, so it’s a well thought out measure. Obviously, such investments don’t yield return in one year. But I’m very certain over the next two to three years, we should have our investment in the bag. Three years from now.

Rajesh Majumdar — B&K Securities — Analyst

Three years [Technical Issues] for the sugar, is it?

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Beyond now, so total four, obvious.

Rajesh Majumdar — B&K Securities — Analyst

Okay. Okay. That’s helpful. And, sir, one question I had, like, if you see — we have seen an impact on the sugar crop this year due to Maharashtra, if we see a continued impact this year, El Nino or whatever, if it happens, is there a chance of the ethanol program getting derailed a little bit in the sense of the government procurement reducing, in which case our — we will not be able to meet our targets?

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

I didn’t get your question.

Rajesh Majumdar — B&K Securities — Analyst

Sir, the question is, we had already seen a sugar production fall this year. If you see in the sugar year 2023-2024 also, some kind of El Nino impact on the crop from wherever, will we see a derailment of the blending program and the government reducing its — yeah.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Let get the sequence very clear.

Rajesh Majumdar — B&K Securities — Analyst

Okay.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

If you produce below 280 lakh tonnes, no problem. Okay?

Rajesh Majumdar — B&K Securities — Analyst

Okay.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Then when you — your ethanol diversion and your production is net of the diversion, no. So, this year, even a bad year, you’ve produced almost 330 lakh quintals, your gross was 370 lakh quintals.

Rajesh Majumdar — B&K Securities — Analyst

Right.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

So next year your gross is even 300 lakh quintals (sic – tonnes), they are encouraging ethanol. The exports will not be allowed to that extent. Domestic production, net of exports — sorry, domestic production, net of ethanol, should be equal to what is required for consumption. The program never gets derailed. And I don’t think that’s even in the horizon anywhere.

Rajesh Majumdar — B&K Securities — Analyst

So, the government will use export tools more as kind of balancing factor is what you are saying?

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Sir, can I explain to you if you hear me properly, please? Production is net of ethanol, no. What this figure you’ve seen 330 lakh tonnes is net of ethanol, no.

Rajesh Majumdar — B&K Securities — Analyst

Correct.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Right? So, obviously, the production is recorded net of ethanol. So, net of ethanol production has to be about 28 — 280 lakh tonnes. Correct?

Rajesh Majumdar — B&K Securities — Analyst

Yes.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

So, that is your sugar availability for — to feed the country. If that is over and above 280 lakh tonnes and your closing stock 6 million tonnes, export will be allowed.

Rajesh Majumdar — B&K Securities — Analyst

Okay. Got it. Got it. Thanks. Thanks, sir.

Vivek Saraogi — Chairman and Managing Director

Correct.

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

Correct.

Rajesh Majumdar — B&K Securities — Analyst

Okay. Got it. Thanks.

Operator

Thank you, ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for today. I now hand the conference over to management for closing comments. Over to you, sir.

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, that was the last question for today. I now hand the conference over to management for closing comments. Over to you, sir.

Pramod Patwari — Chief Financial Officer

Thank you very much. I hope, we have been able to answer all your questions satisfactorily. Should you need any further clarification or would like to know more about us, please feel free to contact us. I, once again, thank you for taking the time to join us on this call. Thanks.

Operator

[Operator Closing Remarks]