Note: This is a preliminary transcript and may contain inaccuracies. It will be updated with a final, fully-reviewed version soon.
Globus Spirits Limited (NSE: GLOBUSSPR) Q4 2026 Earnings Call dated May. 08, 2026
Corporate Participants:
Suyash Samant — Investor Relations
Shekhar Swarup — Joint Managing Director
Nilanjan Sarkar — Chief Financial Officer
Paramjit Singh Gill — Chief Executive Officer of Consumer Division
Analysts:
Abneesh Roy — Analyst
Soumya S. — Analyst
Unidentified Participant
Chandrasekhar Sridhar — Analyst
Presentation:
Operator
Ladies and gentlemen. Good day and welcome to Global Spirits Limited Q4NFY 26 earning conference call. As a reminder, all participant line will be the listen only mode and there will be an opportunity for you to ask question after the presentation. Conclude should you need assistance during the conference call, please signal an operator by pressing Star then zero on your touch on phone. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Suyesh Samanth from Stellar Investor Relations Advisor. Thank you. And over to you sir.
Suyash Samant — Investor Relations
Thank you. Good afternoon everyone and thank you for joining us today. We have with us today the senior management team of Global Spirits Ltd. Mr. Shekha Swaroop, CEO and Joint Managing Director, Mr. Paramjit Singel, CEO of the Consumer Division and Mr. Nilanjan Sarkar, Chief Financial Officer who will represent Global Spirits Ltd. On the call, the management will be sharing the key operating and financial highlights for the quarter and full year ended 31st March 2026 followed by a question and answer session.
Please note this call may contain some of the forward looking statements which are completely based upon the company’s beliefs, opinions and expectations. As of today, these statements are not a guarantee of the company’s future performance and involve unforeseen risk and uncertainties. The company also undertakes no obligation to update any forward looking statements to reflect developments that occur after the statement is made. I now hand over the conference to Mr. Sheikha Farooq. Thank you. And over to you Sir.
Shekhar Swarup — Joint Managing Director
Thank you Suyash. Good afternoon everyone and thank you for joining us today for the Q4 and FY26 earnings call. I assume you reviewed the investor presentation uploaded to the exchanges and our website. Param and Nilanjan are also with me on this call. In the year gone by, we have executed a structural overhaul across multiple facets of the business this year and the underlying growth in our core areas is exceptionally strong. Let me once talk about the fundamental architecture of the business before coming to operational updates.
We operate our business with a consumer focus built upon a solid manufacturing base. This dual structure allows us to innovate rapidly in the alcove space with the lowest cost of production and the fastest time to market. This is not just a structural setup but also a financial engine. The robust cash flows generated by our manufacturing operations act as the primary funding mechanism for the aggressive expansion of our consumer business. Our consumer portfolio is segmented to drive specific strategic outcomes.
Regular and others is our core category. It delivers high volume and deep distribution across our core markets of Rajasthan, up, Delhi and West Bengal, offering superior value to the conscious consumer prestige and above is our future core category. Operating at substantially higher per unit contribution. This segment is the vehicle for our geographic expansion and is systematically driving up our average realizations per case. Within the P and A segment we have isolated and luxury segment. These brands are not just premium offerings, they are market makers designed to define categories and lead consumer trends.
We take immense pride in the fact that our portfolio has secured 34 national and international awards to quantify the shift that’s been taking place in the business. In FY26, nearly 40% of our total revenues came from the consumer portfolio and within this P and a contributed 16% of the revenue just by example in FY24 the P&A business contributed just 6% of our total consumer revenues. Coming to some Manufacturing updates PARAM will of course give you a deep dive in the consumer business. I’ll talk about the manufacturing updates now.
Following the commissioning of our UP distillery last quarter, our installed capacity base stands at 334 million litres per annum. This marks the culmination of the capacity enhancement journey we initiated a few years ago. We now operate six highly flexible distilleries strategically located across the raw material and consumption hubs of north and East India. For the year we achieved a strong 80% capacity utilization. Adjusting for the UP startup period, our multi raw material multi product strategy has successfully stabilized our margins, delivering 6.2 rupees per liter EBITDA for FY26 and 8.3 rupees per litre for Q4FY26.
I want to proactively address some concerns around volume pressure and revenue dynamics observed in this segment. For the quarter gone by, we executed a strategic shift in our Bihar and Ghatran facilities, transitioning from predominantly ethanol production to a mix of ENA and ethanol on the back of lower offtake of ethanol by oil marketing companies. Because ENA currently commands a lower market price in ethanol, this shift naturally contributed to a slight top line revenue drop. More importantly, the supply and dispatch cycle for ENA is inherently longer due to the weather state permissions required.
This friction resulted in a one time inventory buildup at our facilities during Q4. This is obviously a timing issue and we do not see this as a demand issue this liquidity. This inventory buildup will get liquidated in Q1. Additionally, optimizing our raw material feed between maize and rice requires certain technical changes. For instance, when we run our eastern plants entirely on maize as opposed to rice, the system deviates our total capacity by 75 kg for those units, 75 kg per day. This deviating is a known operational variable that we actively factor into our profitability models when deciding between maize and rice procurement.
We’re obviously optimizing for margins and cash flow and not just absolute volume. Some macro tailwinds and Strategic Outlook Going Ahead We’ve positioned the manufacturing business to capitalize on three distinct trends. First, ethanol blending. We are seeing that the national mandates for ethanol blending is on the UP and we forecast strong and sustained demand growth. Second, there’s a global ENA arbitrage available. The current global environment has presented an opportunity with elevated global energy costs severely constraining international ENA supply.
We have actively pivoted to exploit this and our facilities in Haryana, Bihar and UP are already operationally geared for large scale ena Exports. In Q4 we started this journey and exported 3.7 million liters. This opportunity is an additional volume driver for us. Third is obviously the situation in Bihar. We’re actively monitoring the legislative landscape and policy regarding prohibition. If or when that market reopens, the first mover advantage should be significant. Because we have a fully operational footprint in the state, we are perfectly positioned to take advantage of this opportunity.
Finally, I want to provide clarity on the enabling resolutions for a fundraise. Over the past few months, we have proactively engaged within this investor community. These conversations have been highly productive, providing us with a clear validation of our strategic roadmap and confirming strong institutional appetite for the Globus consumer story. However, as we move into the execution phase of our FY27 business plan, the immediate necessity for external capital has been abated. Two factors have shifted our stance.
Number one, internal accruals. Our revised business plan demonstrate a cash flow trajectory that is stronger than was initially projected around Q2 or Q3 of last year, allowing us to self fund our current growth initiatives. Secondly, debt optimization. We have successfully renegotiated our debt terms, fundamentally improving our liquidity profile and reducing our cost of capital. Nilanjan will talk more about this later today. While we continue to evaluate opportunities and maintain a dialogue with potential investors within the validity period of our resolution, we are in no immediate pressure to dilute equity at this stage.
Our priority is clear. We will leverage our robust internal engine to drive towards our FY29 goals Param, I request you to take us through the consumer business performance. Thank you Shekhar and good afternoon everyone. Starting with the Prestige and above the PNA segment, FY26 delivered a robust aggregate performance with revenue increasing 27% year on year to 164 crores and volumes rising 31% to 1.19 million cases. Surpassing the 1 million case mark is a critical milestone for this business. However, looking strictly at the blended top line, growth masks the true underlying momentum of our P and A portfolio.
To accurately contextualize our performance and to understand where this business is heading, it is necessary to break down our market architecture. Our distribution strategy is built on two distinct classifications, core markets and emerging markets. Now, core markets are those where we have surpassed three full years of operations. These are the engines of near term volume growth and profitability. We currently have five core markets, four of which are already profitable. Emerging markets are those in the zero to three year gestation phase.
These geographies require foundational investment and are systematically being groomed to transition into core markets at which point they will contribute significantly to the top and the bottom line. We began this journey four to five years ago and our pipeline is functioning precisely as designed. Let me chat a bit about the Delhi impact and the underlying growth within our core markets. Delhi has historically been an outside contributor representing 33% of our total volumes in FY25. In FY26, a specific isolated disruption in Delhi severely impacted our aggregate growth.
Delhi volumes in Q3FY26 dropped drastically to 60% of the Q3FY25 volumes. While we engineered a sharp recovery in Q4FY26, bringing Delhi volumes back to 90% of Q4FY25 levels. The Q3 trough diluted Delhi’s share of our overall business to 23% for the full year. When we isolate and remove the Delhi anomaly from the data, our P and A business grew at an exceptional 58% year on year. This 58% underlying growth rate aggressively outpaces industry benchmarks and demonstrates the immense traction our brands possess where operations are uninterrupted.
Furthermore, as our emerging markets scale and transition into core markets, our reliance on any single state like Delhi is systematically diluting. This provides a structural hedge against state specific volatility and secures a more stable accelerated growth journey. Coming to operational and regional updates in Q4 FY26 specifically, PNA revenue stood at rupees 40 crores reflecting 34% year on year growth with volumes up 39% to 0.29 million cases. We are executing a clear path towards profitability, effectively reducing losses within this segment.
Overall, the segment generated an EBITDA level loss of rupees 5 crores in the quarter and rupees 9.4 crores for the year. Regionally, the north continues to function as our primary springboard followed closely by the East. In the north we have doubled our execution in UP, penetrating deeper into Tier 3 and Tier 4 cities and expanding the availability of our portfolio in Haryana and Rajasthan. We are simultaneously expanding our luxury footprint into smaller affluent markets in the East. Following the civilization of A.
Singhal, we advanced into Assam in Q3 and initiated operations in Jharkhand last month. The early data is highly encouraging, validating our strategy to expand our portfolio in these states. In Assam we have already initiated Phase two of our geographical spread this quarter, establishing the east as a definitive second growth engine now Coming to Regulars and Other Segment Transitioning to the Regulars and other segment Q4 FY26 revenue stood at rupees 224 crores reflecting a top line growth of 2% year on year with volumes holding stable at 3.97 million cases.
EBITDA for the quarter however outpaced revenue, expanding by 8% year on year to rupees 41 crores. For the full year, FY26 revenue was 900 crores up 4% with volumes at 15.7 million cases and EBITDA delivering a 12% expansion to rupees 158 crores. The headline volume growth in this segment requires immediate contextualization as it masks a deliberate and aggressive structural overall of our operational footprint. During FY26 we executed a strategic wind down of our legacy portfolios in key markets, specifically West Bengal and Haryana.
This was a calculated near term absorption of the volume pressure. We intentionally cleared the channels in these geographies to prepare for the deployment of an entirely new highly optimized portfolio in the near future. While this transition inherently suppressed our aggregate growth, it was a necessary structural reset. That transitional phase is now decisively behind us and the rebasing of this segment is complete. The operational constraints of FY26 have effectively created a coiled spring.
We are already deploying the catalyst to unlock this pent up momentum. We are highly confident that UP will emerge as a massive growth engine and we have backed that conviction by introducing our full range of brands, adding five new SKUs to the market simultaneously, we are attacking the sluggishness in Rajasthan head on. We are sequentially injecting four new to category brands to expand consumer choice, reignite category growth and aggressively reclaim market momentum. Investors should view the F26 RNO performance not as a plateau, but as a foundational exercise.
With the imminent portfolio injections in West Bengal and Haryana, the rapid scaling of UP and the strategic interventions in Rajasthan, we are entering the new fiscal year at a very definitive inflection point. I now request Lanjan to continue with his speech on the financials. Thank you.
Nilanjan Sarkar — Chief Financial Officer
Thank you sir, and good afternoon to everyone. Following the strategic overview provided by our joint md, I will now detail the financial mechanics and balance sheet developments executed during Q4 and the full year. FY26. Our mandate for FY26 was not just revenue expansion but rigorous balance sheet optimization. We have aggressively refined our capital profile to ensure our financial foundation is as formidable as our operational footprint. Debt Optimization the most critical intervention this quarter was the optimization of a long term debt profile.
We recognized an inefficiency in our cost of capital and executed a comprehensive strategic refinancing of our existing term loans. This proactive step acts as a massive catalyst for free cash flow. By leveraging our strengthened credit profile to secure superior interest rates and optimizing the repayment schedule, we have systematically reduced our annual debt outflow from 67 per crore per annum to just 14 core projected for FY27. This action alone unlocks 53 core of direct liquidity in the coming year.
This is unencumbered cash flow that is immediately available to fund the consumer business expansion entirely bypassing the need for external equity. Through this refinancing and broader treasury management, we have driven down our blended rate of interest, combining all forms of borrowing by a full 50 basis points. Now let me touch about deleveraging and capital efficiency. While we are expanding our consumer footprint, we are simultaneously deleveraging the enterprise. In FY26, we reduced our absolute borrowings by 57 crore compared to FY25.
We are funding our growth through internal accruals, not the balance sheet. The disciplined capital allocation has resulted in a radical improvement in our solvency and return metrics. Current Ratio we have successfully driven our current ratio from 0.96x in FY25 to 1.01x in FY26. Crossing this 1x threshold is a critical indicator of structural health. It proves that our aggressive interventions in working capital management have eliminated short term liquidity deficits, shifting the company into a position of operational surplus.
Interest Coverage Ratio Our ability to service our debt has expanded drastically. The interest coverage ratio has improved from 1.76x in FY25 to 3.14x in FY26, we have nearly doubled our safety margin, effectively de risking the enterprise against macroeconomic volatility or interest rate shocks. Return on Equity Ultimately, our capital strategy is measured by the value generated for shareholders. Through the combination of debt reduction, lower interest burdens and optimized asset utilization, our return on Equity has increased threefold 3x in FY26 compared to FY25.
I now leave the phone to the moderator for question and answers. Thank you.
Questions and Answers:
Operator
Thank you so much sir. Ladies and gentlemen, we will now begin with the question and answer session. Anyone who wishes to ask a question may press Star and one on the Touchstone telephone. If you wish to remove yourself from the question queue, you may press star and 1. Participants are request to use handsets while asking a question. Ladies and gentlemen, we’ll wait for a moment while the question queue assembles. Our first question comes from the line of Avnish Roy from Noama Wealth Management.
Please go ahead.
Abneesh Roy
Yeah, thanks and congrats. My first question is on the consumer part of the business of P and A. Overall year ended on a strong note and clearly Delhi will soon come back to growth. What kind of growth would you be targeting for P and A for FY27 and given favorable policy changes in some of the states like Karnataka where they are saying that based on liquor content, alcohol content, taxation, that sensitivity will be there and maybe some more markets and maybe UP is a big market for you given you have entered a few quarters back what kind of growth you’ll be targeting in P and A and maybe even the regular also if you could give some kind of a guidance.
Thank you.
Shekhar Swarup
Thanks Avnish. So you know coming to the second part of the question after as of now we do not have presence in south with reference to the Karnataka landscape change but we intend as as soon as we strengthen our east then obviously we intend picking up the next region and those are greener pastures for us. UP each and every positive opportunity we are going to leverage because UP we have a full presence with a captive distillery where the expansion has ensured that we are servicing our requirement on the growth target.
Amnesh we are totally committed to delivering the F29 objective which we said that we are going to ultimately work towards managing a 50% total growth on our P and A portfolio and we are totally committed to them. Time to time there will be quarters up and down where some growth projections will either exceed expectations or fall soft and we would not like to give, you know, piecemeal Commitments to growth at this stage.
Abneesh Roy
Understood. Now a follow up to what you said. Eastern India clearly a big opportunity especially given what has happened in Bengal. Why I wanted to highlight first Bengal was clearly same party runs in government in Uttar Pradesh which I think is one of the best examples of how favorable liquor policy should be there for customer government and for the industry. So do you think any change is possible in Bengal medium long term given new government or the Bengal taxation or policies are reasonably good.
And second follow up on Eastern India is obviously on the most important state from your side, Bihar. Bihar 1 is the current Chief Minister. The new Chief Minister just few months back had highlighted the loss of opportunity given the taxation impact. So would you think that at some stage clearly government would want to open up any any initial talk happening. And second is supposing at some stage and this is not some timeline I’m putting from a FY27 or 28 perspective. I’m just saying currently you do utilize your current assets in Bihar.
Supposing there is a reasonable opening of Bihar market at some stage then what changes for you? Because already obviously B2B and exports are happening then what changes either from revenue or profitability perspective. I know a lot of things are unknown given taxation but we have seen Andhra market for example open up right? It was the restricted to local players. So some clarity I’m asking not full clarity.
Shekhar Swarup
Thanks. Thanks. See on West Bengal while at this point of time we have a corporation market and private retail us our subject is obviously such a constraint subject that there is always opportunity to become more liberal in the excise policy to propel residential to the next level of growth. My thought is that over the medium term the environment to operate alcohol industries especially spirits in West Bengal is likely to get more favorable. And that is something we are very keenly waiting and looking forward to while we build our strength in the state.
So from my side we are holding and watching like you are. But overall it is likely to move into a positive, more positive zone in the medium term coming to Bihar. See Bihar in my personal view is going to open. It’s a question of when because you know it’s, it’s, it’s surrounded by all sides with the states progressively reaping in a lot of revenue from our category and there is no reason why it should just be missing out on it. The one change that will happen when Bihar opens, whether selectively in two, three steps or overall in one step will be that when Globus entered the P and A segment about four and a half Five years ago we came in brand by brand.
We built a momentum for the brand, learned our lesson. But now when Bihar opens, we will have the full portfolio moving in like any strong and a stable organization. So the journey in Bihar will be full fledged because it will be literally the same for every company. So we do not have to start testing the waters in Bihar and go in phases. So Globus will enter lock, stock and barrel in Bihar the moment Bihar opens. We definitely see an inherent advantage for any organization that has a base layer of manufacturing.
We definitely have and we see that as a structural advantage for us in the short medium term for sure. And probably on this strength, once we build our base, this advantage will be there for many years to continue.
Abneesh Roy
Understood. The last quick question. Obviously Iran crisis has impact on everything in the world. So I wanted to understand from glass bottles and the now elections done. Results done. Diesel price hike is just a formality in my view. How do you see your PNL getting impacted? Especially the P and D because there was an increase in losses there, 5 crores versus the full year number. And clearly everyone will feel the pain. So wanted to understand glass bottles and logistics cost, what can be the impact?
Shekhar Swarup
So you are correct in saying that obviously this political development has just come as a surprise to most industries if not all. And we are no exception. While we were caught by surprise, we have quickly geared up and a lot of efficiency measures are already up and about. While we see a very, very. I mean there will be an impact but the way we see most of the impact we should be able to neutralize. And I’m also confident that, you know, looking at what’s happening is the governments will eventually concede into a price increase because many operators will struggle under these circumstances.
Luckily we have activated very promptly on all efficiency measures whether it is on packaging material, raw material, freight costs. We have a full fledged project going on for that and we are tracking it. So we should come out with much more modest hits if I may say so. I just wanted to add to what Param said. You know, one mitigating factor to higher raw material costs this year is going to be lower tariff on Scotch. So that’s a mitigating factor. It doesn’t offset the entire amount. But so overall there will be an impact but not very considerable
Abneesh Roy
Scotch benefit from Q3 or you expect maybe Q2 also some benefit can come.
Shekhar Swarup
Let’s see how it finally plays out. Avnish in terms of the timing of inventories that are in the pipeline and so on. But this year of course we will start getting that benefit.
Abneesh Roy
Sure. Thanks for all this. That comes from my side. Thank you.
Shekhar Swarup
Thank you.
Operator
Our next question comes from the line of Bhargo Buddhadev from Ambit Asset Management. Please go ahead.
Shekhar Swarup
Yeah, good afternoon sir and thank you very much for giving clarity on the fundraise part. So just to extend that question, so is it possible to quantify what is the funding requirement now to expand the IMFL portfolio? I mean as we build our vision for FY29, we’re looking to sort of reach to about closer to 500 odd crores. How much money do we need and is the internal cash flow good enough post the debt restructuring to fund that plan? Hi Bhagav, thanks for the question. So you know, many of these things are waiting watch.
We can say that this year we do not see a need to achieve the business plan given some of the operational improvements and leverage we’ve been able to get. The added liquidity from the debt optimization that Nilanjan spoke about also supported that we are expecting margins cash flow from manufacturing to remain stable at these levels going forward. And if that’s the case, we should be able to avoid the fundraise altogether. But for now, this year we don’t see a need at all for subsequent periods.
Let’s wait to watch a little bit, see how the first two or three quarters of this year plays out and in terms of of course our own performance, but more importantly some of the, you know, larger political macroeconomic events and then we’ll be in a better position to comment. Okay. And secondly, sir, is it correct to highlight that in rising crude prices typically the oil and marketing companies would want to buy ethanol more from sugar based companies rather than alcohol based companies or that hypothesis.
No, we don’t see that. I mean ethanol, whether sugar or grain, the oil companies have zero, you know, preference or any of that. The other factor to consider is that sugar has a limit to the amount of capacity it can shift to ethanol. There’s also the need to produce sugar. Right. There is a very significant grain ethanol capacity base in the country. Over the last few months we’ve seen oil marketing companies, government of India start preparing towards higher ethanol blends and I believe flex fuel mandates for new cars is also on the anvil.
So you know, overall ethanol demands are going to be quite strong going forward and you know, I guess it has been expedited due to higher crude prices. Great sir, thank you very much for the answers and all the very best. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you so much. Our next question comes from the Line of Himanshu Shah from Dalit Capital. Please go ahead.
Abneesh Roy
Thanks. Thanks a lot for the opportunity. So just a couple of questions. First is on the manufacturing business. We have shifted on the eastern side of our plants from ethanol to ENA which has resulted into lower volumes in. Is that what you clarified?
Shekhar Swarup
So there are a few different aspects that have gone into play here. One is that when we shift from rice to maize, there is a small capacity DE rating that takes place in each plant. I explained in my opening remarks that if we are to shift all three of our eastern plants to
Abneesh Roy
Maize,
Shekhar Swarup
It would lead to a derating of 75 KL per day. Okay. This of course it’s not a decision taken for all three plants all at the same time. Each plant has its own decision parameters and we optimize the model for profitability and cash flow rather than volume. So that’s, that’s number one. Number two is that when we are shifting from ethanol to ENA in a sizable quantity, there is a period of inventory buildup due to an extended permissions process that is required in India from multiple state excise departments.
Multiple in the sense the importing state, the receiving state as well as the supplying state. And thirdly, with increasing exports there is also an increased amount of material in the pipeline. So a combination of these three factors led to a slightly lower volume in Q3. In sorry, Q4 overall our capacity utilization was 80% and that’s well within the the annual guidance that we have of 80 to 85%. The lower or rather the volume build up, the inventory buildup that we’ve seen in Q4 will get liquidated in Q1 in addition to the capacity of Q1.
So we’re going to see an increase in volume in Q1 because of this pipeline build up that we had in Q4.
Abneesh Roy
Okay, so just to simplify this, historically we have been able to sell around 19 to 20 crore liters of bulk alcohol. And. And with up capacity coming on stream and till the time it gets captively consumed in UP over the next couple of
Shekhar Swarup
Years.
Abneesh Roy
So to assume we should be able to sell 20 to 23 crore liters of bulk alcohol in FY27 we have those kind of visibility and ethanol orders.
Shekhar Swarup
Combination of ethanol and ena. Yes, not just ethanol.
Abneesh Roy
Yeah, I’m saying all put together. Ena, ethanol, export sales. All put together. We should because our exit run rate has been much lower. 4.2 crore, which is like annually 16, 17 crore. Although you have clarified that the left out sales inventory buildup should get sold In. Hello.
Shekhar Swarup
Yeah, Nilanjan, can you comment on this? What is our exit FY volume for bulk for the manufacturing business?
Nilanjan Sarkar
Exit FY volume for bulk for manufacturing business. FY 26 has been 199.5 million liters.
Shekhar Swarup
Right. Okay. So it’s, you know, it’s in the 20 crore. It’s nearly 20 crores. So that’s the. It’s in the guidance that we have.
Abneesh Roy
Okay. But I’m not sure what you
Shekhar Swarup
Were talking about. 16 crores. 16.4 crores. I’m not sure what that was,
Abneesh Roy
Sir. I was going exit quarter run rate 4 crore, 4.2 crore liters into four 17 crore liters.
Shekhar Swarup
Okay. So I mean it’s. You’re right in saying that 20 crore is our annual guidance. And on top of that there’s up. So yes, there is going to be gross on top of the 20 crores.
Abneesh Roy
So can we have visibility of ethanol orders, export orders from that front?
Shekhar Swarup
Yes.
Abneesh Roy
Okay. And secondly, sir, you may mention that the EBITDA per liter or spread should remain in ballpark in the current range, which is annual range or the H2 range. Five to
Shekhar Swarup
Seven rupees is our guidance for the ectoper liter. That’s the range in which it will remain for the year. We’ve seen higher realizations in Q4. But my expectation is to be firmly within 5 to 7 rupees for the year.
Abneesh Roy
So the EBITDA per liter range should actually go down is what you are indicating on a full year basis in FY27,
Shekhar Swarup
In Q4. And that’s, you know, it’s within that 5 to 7 range. The strategic margin profile of the bulk business is in that 5 to 7 range. I do not see any event in FY27 where our margins will be strategically higher. So 5 to 7 is our guidance for each of the years. The FY26 was that range and FY27, we expect the same range.
Abneesh Roy
Sure. And what kind of cost increase are we looking at because of this geopolitical situation on our pet bottle and across our other other cost line items. Some ballpark indicators while we have taken some mitigating measures. But if you can just give. What kind of cost pressures are we looking at?
Shekhar Swarup
So Param, do you want to talk a little bit about this, please? Yeah. So. So thanks. Thanks, Shekhar and Hi Himanshu. So it’s difficult to put a number out there, Himanshu, but what we have as of now is, you know, we built multiple scenarios of the timeline. What if scenarios and basis that what we have done is we have our mitigation plan already rolled out as we are speaking, it is in full force basis that outcome, you know, regardless of, you know, how long this agony prolongs within this year, we see that our hit will be modest.
Should, should this agony, you know, sort of immediately get capped, then maybe with a, with a good day, we may have some benefit also coming to us with all the efficiency measures we have put in. So we are, we are fairly, you know, how should I say, uninterrupted in our pursuit of where we are going and assume that these are things that will happen every, you know, a year or two years there will be this sort of a thing. So we are not overtly concerned about this. Unlike, unlike some other pairs, we are not overly concerned about it at this stage.
Abneesh Roy
And just lastly, sir, while you are maintaining your vision 29 or guidance which has been given, it implies a very significant CAGR in terms of revenue across all the three business segment. So we remain confident on that particular front. Now it looks like challenging.
Shekhar Swarup
Yeah, no, so point is, point is well noted. See the way we see it is, and as I have sort of shared a little bit more detail, you see as more and more emerging markets move into the core markets, the number of core markets will eventually outweigh the emerging markets within this 2.0 business plan. And that is where the momentum will start multiplying. Because when we have X number of emerging markets and five core markets, the ratio starts being diluted. But as the five core markets become 8, 9, 10, suddenly the whole drawing board starts giving different results.
And that’s what we are trying to clarify that you know, the number of core markets as it starts increasing, the whole momentum will continue to build and accelerate for times to come. And that is why we are so confident that what we have, we are set out, we are still online or on track regardless of, you know, this thing of Delhi and you know, who knows, in future there could be another small spring surprise around the corner.
Abneesh Roy
Sure. And just last small follow up, Delhi has now fully normalized for us.
Shekhar Swarup
Almost there. We, as I said, the last quarter we came with 10% shortfall to come at par with the previous year. So it shows from 40 we came down to 10. So we are fairly confident that we are almost over the hump and the buildup of the growth should start beginning. How soon we can neutralize this and build it into an accelerated momentum is as we go forward, we will keep sharing, you know, the Delhi performance for a couple of quarters.
Nilanjan Sarkar
So that
Shekhar Swarup
So that you know all the investors also have a little bit more view into how we have traversed the journey from two points. One is obviously since it has been something we have spoken about and second also to for everybody out there to sort of understand that these challenges will happen. It’s the ability of the organization and the professional team how to navigate them quickly and turn them around into opportunities rather than let them keep draining the medium term the short term hiccups of course can’t be prevented so we will, we will keep sharing but I am very optimistic on Delhi going forward.
Abneesh Roy
Sure sir, that’s very helpful. And that’s it from my side. All the best.
Shekhar Swarup
Thank you Manchu. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Soumya as from Insightful investments. Please go ahead.
Soumya S.
Hi sir, thank you for the opportunity. I just had a question regarding the PNA EBITDA for Q4 it is increased as in the loss has increased from what was around 1.2 to 2 for the previous quarters to 5 crores at times. Could you just explain the reason for the same.
Shekhar Swarup
Yeah, so thanks, thanks for the question and the opportunity Soumya See the way we have structured our business journey is that there are some quarters when new emerging markets have not opened up or they are in that mode where we are still sort of in a very early seeding place and then a time comes when emerging market needs investment so and that reflects in quarter to quarter. So the yo yo of these quarters is likely to continue for another maybe another year and a bit and then this starts moving into the next zone of profitability because in the quarter when we have expanded and opened up east extra investments have gone in, we have opened up Jharkhand and hence it is very difficult for us to track our business decisions basis to try and level out each quarter performance in PNA because that would be suboptimal so we are sticking to our business plan and as and when the right moment comes we inject our financial force onto the market either to expand or bring new launches or deeper either width of distribution or depth of distribution.
So and that obviously adds up to the. Sorry to interrupt, I just want to give a little color. So in this quarter for example we had around three to three and a half crore rupees of additional label registration costs that were paid for new brand launches and this was done because we felt the timing for launching these brands in Jan and Feb is more favorable than doing it as soon as the excise your changes. Now of course all of that has to be booked into expenses and that drives the losses a little bit higher.
But this does not of course show accurately the underlying health of the business, which is that what Param mentioned in his opening remarks that four out of five states of the core markets are now profitable.
Soumya S.
Thank you so much.
Shekhar Swarup
Thanks, Amir.
Operator
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Nitin Avasthi from Incred Capital. Please go ahead.
Abneesh Roy
Hello, sir. First question. Could we get a numerical clarity on the Delhi numbers? Like, we have understood that our segment numbers of the regular category are significantly impacted because of Delhi. And hence looking at the overall number doesn’t give a true picture of the growth of the company. So if you could just quantify FY25, what was the sales million cases sales in the regular segment in Delhi and FY26 what it is. So that distinction could be clearly made.
Shekhar Swarup
Nitin, I accept your feedback on this. We’re not prepared to give you the numbers immediately on this call. But what I can say is that year on year up and Rajasthan together have grown in volume by 7%. Yeah.
Abneesh Roy
Okay, so I don’t have the number that you asked. Last year up was zero.
Shekhar Swarup
Correct. So if I put those two states together, then we have seen a 7% growth, Rajasthan and UP in the last year. Overall, our volumes are flat. So the other markets degrew by 7% in the overall contribution. Understood?
Abneesh Roy
Understood. Okay, now that clarifies a lot of things. So if you just remove the impact of Delhi, we actually have grown 7%. No, no. It’s not
Shekhar Swarup
Just Delhi. It’s not just Delhi. So Param mentioned this in an opening remarks. Delhi. And this is. Okay, let’s separate ENA Delhi and RNO Delhi.
Operator
Okay,
Abneesh Roy
So
Operator
He’s talking about rna. I don’t know. Yeah, yeah. So
Shekhar Swarup
I just want to clarify to Nitin as well as the others who are on the call that right now we’re talking about R and O Delhi, not PNA Delhi. Okay. So R and O Delhi in the last year we have experienced in some periods absolutely zero volumes. And in some periods we’ve experienced in fact a growth over last year. Okay. And this is a month on month variation. So Delhi policy for RNO brands has been in complete flux as of the end of Q4. We decided until the policy is not stabilized, we will not operate in Delhi.
Okay. For R and o brands, the 7% DE growth in volumes essentially from overall volumes from the other markets is a combination of Delhi, West Bengal and Haryana. We have also pulled out our portfolio, redoing the portfolio as well. As shifting the manufacturing location and in the near term we will relaunch that. So essentially it’s up and up and Rajasthan that have grown 7%. You know, hopefully we’ll be getting to higher levels of growth from these two markets in the near future. And the other markets has been quite problematic
Abneesh Roy
And therefore overall volumes are flat.
Shekhar Swarup
And a little more detail on West Bengal. See West Bengal we had constraints to grow and as a result it was a choice we made to shift our whole manufacturing license to a different location to set ourselves up. Because the industry is almost about just short of 3 million cases a month there. So the whole objective was and the whole license shifting and setting up is going to take some time. So we have kept it out of the equation and when we enter it back we are going to enter with a full fledged new portfolio with the same aggressive stance as we have done in UP to make it then the next powerful state.
By which time we obviously would have picked up a lot of momentum in UP as you will see in the coming quarters.
Abneesh Roy
Understood, sir. Got it. So second question on the balance sheet front of course you’ve given a detailed presentation on how the cost constraints, how the treasury management, how the renegotiation of terms of the loans have happened. However, one clarification required is that we had seen a trajectory of the interest cost per quarter continuously falling. Q4 we saw a jump. So basically we were at 13 crores roughly. Q4 we saw a jump to 16.5 crores. Now was that a result of the cost of renegotiation being incurred and if so, what should be the tragedy going forward?
Shekhar Swarup
No,
Nilanjan Sarkar
No. Q4 the increase of 3 crores is basically till Q3 we were capitalizing the interest cost on up term loan. Okay, so the interest cost was less in Q3 which from Q4 has gone up by 3 crores. When we had to, when after commissioning the interest costs had to be expensed off. However with this refinancing again it will plateau down to a reasonable level.
Shekhar Swarup
So what is the expected interest cost? I think that’s the question going forward. Yeah.
Nilanjan Sarkar
Interest rate.
Abneesh Roy
No, no interest cost. So you can do it either which way is rates or wise also Cost wise also
Nilanjan Sarkar
14 to 15%. 14 to 15 crores. Sorry, 14 to 15 crores.
Abneesh Roy
Understood. Understood sir. Thank you. Got it. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Sunny Gosar from MK Venture. Please go ahead.
Abneesh Roy
Yeah. Hi. Thanks for taking my question. I just wanted to basically build on to the earlier participants question on the regular and adult category. So if we take a two, three year historical view of the performance of the category, we were at about 14 and a half million cases three years back. We are at now about 15.7 million cases. Like so low single digit growth. And I understand there have been lots of challenges with state level challenges with Haryana, Delhi, West Bengal. Now assuming that lot of these have kind of been solved for and in the base, how should we look at the next two, three years from the regular and others category and what is that outlook on the growth in this category?
Shekhar Swarup
So thanks Sunny. It is, it is. You know it is precisely this very sort of a scenario which prompted us to pivot into UP with a full fledged commitment and investment that the overall. Because Rajasthan was the growing market and a couple of other markets were yo yoing and not showing long term stability. So and that is exactly the reason why we entered into UP which is three times bigger market than Rajasthan itself and the Delhi Obviously as we have pointed out, we are waiting for clarity on way forward on the policy front and the tender front
Abneesh Roy
Investment.
Shekhar Swarup
Our license is in process and it’s very difficult to commit a particular quarter when everything gets ticked off and signed off. But the process is robustly being changed. Haryana still happens to be a yo yo but UP itself is going to be the huge driver since we don’t give volume projections in the short term. But the very fact that Uttar Pradesh is a three times bigger industry size, almost like 95 lakh cases to a 1 crore case market per month, we are very, very confident of pulling in robust volume growth in this category collectively.
Abneesh Roy
Sorry, sorry to harp on this a little more but you mentioned that there is, there is still lack of clarity in terms of when we can kind of get back to West Bengal at full swing. So there would still be an impact in the base quarter. Right? Like at least for the next one or two quarters we will have best Bengal. Negligible.
Shekhar Swarup
It’s now negligible going forward. It is negligible because we had initiated. When did we initiate Nilandhan? I think somewhere around August, September already we have started. Isn’t it
Nilanjan Sarkar
August, August, end of July, End of July.
Shekhar Swarup
And so it’s almost negligible now because we have started softening our whole approach and sort of heading towards zero base while we were migrating. So I think most of it is behind us already. Yeah. So Q1 will have some West Bengal. Very little marginal very much. Yeah, yeah, that will be the end. So the, the rebasing is nearly complete, Sunny. And on the earlier question I gave some Color. As to the Rajasthan combined growth in the last year, I think we’ll be able to grow more than that up Rajasthan combined.
And since the rebasing is complete or nearly complete, that should reflect in the overall number as well. There should be some Bengal volume in Q1. I don’t recall what it was. So that’s the only caveat over here.
Abneesh Roy
Got it. And from a profitability standpoint, does it mean that both UP and Rajasthan as a portfolio will be better, will have better profitability and as some of these smaller states become negligible, the overall profitability also will kind of start improving on the regular.
Shekhar Swarup
So. So our profitability in the regular and Others, I think Q4 was 18%. Nilanjan, please correct me if I’m wrong. Yeah,
Nilanjan Sarkar
Yeah, yeah,
Shekhar Swarup
That’s, that’s a little bit on the higher end of what we feel is sustainable. UP growth is not as profitable as Rajasthan volumes, naturally. So I don’t foresee this 18% margin continuing. It is going to be a little bit lower. I think our target in this space is 16 to 18%. So, you know, it will be a little bit lower than that for sure.
Abneesh Roy
From an absolute margin standpoint it should
Operator
Be.
Abneesh Roy
Oh yes.
Operator
Oh
Shekhar Swarup
Yes, right. Of course, on absolute rupee term, it will be larger,
Abneesh Roy
Of course.
Shekhar Swarup
That
Operator
Goes.
Shekhar Swarup
Yeah, absolutely.
Abneesh Roy
Yeah. Just one last question from my side on the. On the prestige and above segment, in terms of the brand portfolio that you kind of built up now, in terms of what the whiskey and vodka that we have so is. So what is our thought process on the brand build out or will we kind of try and go deeper on the current portfolio of brands, at least for a while, and then look to add more brands. So what is the thought process on the growth there?
Shekhar Swarup
So we see at this point of time, obviously if we keep luxury still as a bucket and luxury at this point of time has DWARB and Terai families and we see ourselves making a lot of effort at strengthening them at this point of time on the mainstream. Pna Mountain Oak, including its family, brothers and company, including its family, Snofsky, including its family. And also, you know, these are the ones which are going to be core drivers as we are driving these families. There will be variants and time to time there will be strategic fits.
But in terms of real contributors to top line and bottom line, all these three families will continue to be significant drivers for us. And we are building around these families. Mountain Oak has now varietal of Lemony Rum along with it. Snosky has quite a Few flavors and there are some more works which we will all see in the future. Similarly Brothers has B15 so these brands are being built and we see these three as main drivers in the short medium term these three families.
Abneesh Roy
Got it. This is very helpful and thanks for the detailed answers to my question.
Shekhar Swarup
Yeah, the whole, the whole intent here is sunny that we started with being a one brand show which was mountain Oak and like the whole experience of Delhi as a state we realize that eventually when we are a mini market P and a segment we also will be a many good brands PNA segment so that we are not dependent on any short term vagaries of the environment of business. So that’s where we are building these portfolios.
Suyash Samant
Thank you so much.
Shekhar Swarup
Thank you,
Operator
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Romul from Electrum pms. Please go ahead.
Paramjit Singh Gill
Hello. Yeah, thanks for the opportunity sir. And it’s heartening to know that I think this year you unlocked good amount of free cash flows and probably might not need external funding and I hope you know you do better in the coming years. Just a couple of things on so first is just needed some breakup of you know manufacturing. So how, how much was ethanol, how much was ENA and how much was captive? Probably if you can give some data points around this.
Shekhar Swarup
So for the full year and Q4 also around 20 crore liters of sale of in the manufacturing space. There is zero captive within this captive is on top.
Abneesh Roy
Okay.
Shekhar Swarup
Okay. And within 20 crores I Nilanjan again just feel free to come in. We’re at about 70, 3070 ethanol 30 EMA.
Nilanjan Sarkar
Yeah, it’s almost there. 7228.
Paramjit Singh Gill
Okay, got it. And I think there was, we also mentioned that there was some issue on the pricing front on the ENA side. So if you can just throw some light on what was it.
Shekhar Swarup
Markets are structured. ENA prices are a little bit lower than that of ethanol. And the quarter this quarter gone by before the same quarter previous year had a much higher ethanol share. So as we shifted to EMA that revenue was a little bit lower. In addition we had an inventory buildup which also impacted revenue. So it’s not an issue per se, it’s just you know those markets are strategically different. What’s, what’s, what’s essential for us is monitoring our profit per meter. And you know we’ve been
Paramjit Singh Gill
Over
Shekhar Swarup
Delivered on our guidance for this quarter but going forward our guidance remains between 5 and 7 rupees a litre regardless of ENA or ethanol.
Paramjit Singh Gill
Okay. And so this year did we export ethanol? I think you mentioned about 3.
Shekhar Swarup
We started in Q4, 3.7 million liters.
Paramjit Singh Gill
Okay, 3.7 million liters. We started in Q4. So going ahead, you know, this number can keep on increasing and whether this is like in terms of profitability is export similar to what we are doing for the bulk sales. In terms of profitability overall,
Shekhar Swarup
You know, it changes month on month. So I don’t want to, it’s not strategically more profitable or less profitable. I think overall the basket will give us this five to seven rupees.
Paramjit Singh Gill
Okay. Okay. Got becomes
Shekhar Swarup
An additional volume driver. I think that’s really the point here. Yeah,
Paramjit Singh Gill
Correct. So I was just coming to the volume side. So with exports now also coming in and up also coming in, how do you see the overall bulk volume growth going ahead?
Shekhar Swarup
So 20 crores is what the other units will give us aside from up and up should give us about somewhere around 2 crore litres. We’re seeing sort of a volume projecting volume growth in up. So some part of that capacity might get consumed internally. So you know, well over 20 crores will be the target for this year.
Paramjit Singh Gill
Okay. And on this, you know, just on the premium segment, so the realization per case, you know what we can just calculate how do you see that moving, you know, going ahead? So apart from the volume growth which is obviously coming in very well, how do you see this shift?
Shekhar Swarup
So you know, again that answer, of course, this is Param’s domain and Param, please come in after I’m done. But that answer really has to be thought through in this way that Param sort of spoke about earlier in his opening remarks, which is that we have these four markets and emerging markets. So you know, in the core markets that number is a little more easily. We can easily project that number a lot easier than we can for emerging markets because you know, we don’t have, we launch a portfolio.
Sometimes certain set of brands do better than the others and you know, those brands may have higher price or a lower price. So strategically, as the luxury portfolio starts coming in into all the markets on top of the prestige and above, or rather the core segments of Mountain Snow Ski and Brothers, the NSVS are going to go up, but on a quarter by quarter basis they may well be blitzed and those don’t really affect the strategic nature of the business.
Abneesh Roy
Correct.
Shekhar Swarup
Lastly,
Paramjit Singh Gill
What
Shekhar Swarup
We can do is that like we keep calling out that at this point of time four out of five core markets are profitable. Even when the emerging markets start becoming core markets, we will keep on sharing that Information so that you know, because the whole objective is for us to increase more and more core markets at the best possible pace and because those are the ones which give stable top and bottom line growth. So we will keep going forward. Also updating the investor community on that. How, you know, as soon as the market moves into it we will keep changing our numerical numbers and when the fourth become fifth we will call it out that now we have so many markets, we keep updating that part at least surely.
Paramjit Singh Gill
Okay, okay. And lastly on the UP side, if you can just give some number on the monthly volumes and as a suggestion, because UP is now getting bigger and bigger of the overall pie, would you call out separate numbers going ahead on this?
Shekhar Swarup
Currently we are not calling out separate numbers for up. We’ll have a, we’ll have a think internally on how to do that to protect our competitive, you know, competitor sort of information as well. And you know, if we feel that the information is not going to weaken our position in up then perhaps we can start putting it out. Our primary objective is to secure our strategic sort of expansion in the state or in various states that we’re in whilst being as transparent with investors as possible.
Paramjit Singh Gill
Okay, thanks a lot and all the best.
Operator
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Hitendra Pradhan from Maximum Capital. Please go ahead.
Abneesh Roy
Yeah, hi sir. So the first question on the PNA side, so given since you alluded that we are still going by FY29. So.
Shekhar Swarup
Is it better,
Abneesh Roy
Is it better now?
Shekhar Swarup
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Abneesh Roy
Yeah. So on the PNA side, sir, you know this year we have seen a sort of a steep deceleration in the growth rate and even excluding Delhi, you called out a number of 58%. Now given your FY29 sort of a vision of thousand crore plus in this segment, you know we need to almost double our revenues every year for the next three years. So the number,
Shekhar Swarup
So the number has not is not thousand crores for PNA. Hitendra,
Nilanjan Sarkar
The number, the number for PNA is 500 crores, not thousand
Shekhar Swarup
What we had called out. Yeah. So yeah, that’s the number we are holding on to. Not thousand crores.
Abneesh Roy
Okay. And yeah,
Shekhar Swarup
We’ve ever given that guidance of thousands, thousands of this. Okay, my bad. But
Abneesh Roy
Given, given that sort of a vision also I think we need to grow 3x in three years. So that is even now like 40 odd percent growth and our growth rate has decelerated. So. So what I mean is it looking achievable given where we stand?
Shekhar Swarup
Yeah, I Think even, even after Delhi last year we grew 40%, grew our volumes. There was a nearly 3% price mix based change and that’s why the revenue doesn’t reflect it. I don’t see any concern on achieving this target. You know. Yeah. See as the base keeps on increasing, you can see the numbers multiplying. If you do your own math you will see the numbers multiplying because as we have called out as more and more markets move from emerging to core, the buildup will start happening on a higher base.
And so what looks like it’s like when we were, when we were 20 crores, suddenly 164 crores looked very difficult to us. So it’s the multiplier effect that starts moving. So moving 100 crores plus a year is not something that is going to be something to be, to be thought out as is it too tall in order. So because the base will keep on increasing with every year.
Abneesh Roy
Yeah, so that was my question. As the base increases, your growth rate is decelerating. So given that do we still feel that we will be able to achieve let’s say 40% because
Shekhar Swarup
On a higher base, even a lesser, slightly modest growth brings us to 500. Exactly. That is the reason why we are very confident. Okay,
Abneesh Roy
Okay. And secondly on the RNO market now, given that we will be having up this year, so what is the. So you know, as one more participant alluded to that this has been growing in a lower single digit fashion. But at least for this FY27, FY28, you know, how are we looking at the growth?
Shekhar Swarup
So you know I mentioned this earlier as well. Rajasthan plus up last year gave us 7% growth. I believe in the coming year Rajasthan plus up will give us, you know, higher than 7% growth. At this point we are not in a position to give a more specific guidance for Rajasthan plus UP for this year. But you know, basis the brand launches we’ve had that Param spoke about earlier, the markets are looking quite exciting
Abneesh Roy
In UP specifically. So let’s say in the last month, let’s say April, you know, what kind of monthly run rate have we achieved year in terms of cases.
Shekhar Swarup
So you know, let’s just wait a little bit for the momentum to settle down. In April is new Excise there is a, in this year there was a change in the group to market. So we saw inventory build up taking place in April. We also saw new brand launches. So I don’t want to talk about the April number at this point. Suffice it to say we’re going to exceed our Rajasthan plus up FY26 growth number and you’ll start seeing that performance in Q1 and onwards.
Abneesh Roy
Okay. Rajasthan last year sir, we had got a, you know, 4, 5% price increase also. So that also helped our revenues in FY26 for this year. Have we got any price increase in Rajasthan, Haryana or any of the major markets?
Shekhar Swarup
Nilanjan, can you just confirm that?
Nilanjan Sarkar
Yeah, this year also we’ve got a price increase in Rajasthan to the extent of 30 rupees a case. So that has been replicated for this year also up as of now, no Haryana, no. But Rajasthan you’ve got a price increase.
Shekhar Swarup
Yeah, but we got to be really cautious of that price increase because there’s been inflation in PC prices so. And in addition up growth is going to be at a lower margin than Rajasthan. We closed Q4 with 18% which is a little bit higher than the sustainable margin profile. Our guidance is around the 16%, 17% kind of mark. So we do see margins coming down a bit but the overall pool is going to be much larger in terms of rupees as the business grows in the coming year.
Abneesh Roy
Okay. And on the manufacturing segment, so what is our maintenance capex now that we won’t be growing any further beyond up, what is our maintenance capex per year?
Shekhar Swarup
Maintenance capex is around 40 to 50 crores. However we also have additional capex in terms of increasing our malt whiskey inventory capacity. So for aging malt whiskey as well as growing our bottling infrastructure to keep up with the demands of the consumer business. So overall I foresee somewhere between 60 to 80 crores of capex sustaining for a few years.
Abneesh Roy
So 40 to 50 is a maintenance.
Shekhar Swarup
Yeah, 40 to 50 is maintenance plus another 20 to 30 to grow risky as well as bottling infrastructure. Risky aging and bottling infrastructure.
Abneesh Roy
So sir, given that plan. So that means that this year onwards we will start paying down our debt aggressively given the kind of cash flow we are earning. So maybe next one or two years we can go to zero debt.
Shekhar Swarup
I won’t comment on zero debt but yes, what what I mentioned earlier on the call as well that given the cash flows that we have, the plan for capital raise equity capital raise has been put on hold. We’re able to manage our expansion based on our internal cash flow. Debt will be the residual cash that is in the year after providing for working capital for our IMFL business. Residual cash will obviously go to pin down test.
Abneesh Roy
Okay. Okay. Thank you sir. All the best. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Our next question Come from the line of Devam from ideco. Please go ahead.
Unidentified Participant
Yeah, thank you sir for the opportunity for the question. Really appreciate the striking down of the QIP since it’s managed from debt and internal accruals, combination of the both. So my question was more regarding that. Let’s say we are doing multiple businesses, ethanol, ena, rno, pna, luxury. And there are different narratives, drivers, asset turn, different margins, different gross margins, return ratios involving each of them. Now in the last three years we have been trying and there were probably some headwinds from some of those verticals.
We have seen some releases, the numbers are struggling because of one offs in one of the divisions or whatever that is happening. As an investor I would just like to understand that what is our commitment and thought process to sort of deliver a respectable ROE at an aggregate basis in the coming two to three years period and what is the timelines, what is the accountability on that front?
Shekhar Swarup
So you know we have in the past published FY29 guidance for revenues as well as profitability. And you know, whereas in the process of rolling out that planned process of growing our footprint in a state by state fashion and a brand by brand fashion, there are going to be blips in a quarterly, in a quarterly manner. But we remain committed to our FY29 volume as well as profitability guidance.
Unidentified Participant
And sir, any reason why the margins in our manufacturing business have consistently, especially the ethanol piece, have been a tad lower than competition in the past few quarters.
Shekhar Swarup
For us, we believe that the basket of ENA plus ethanol at a capacity utilization of 80 to 85% will give us 5 to 7 rupees of EBITDA. We operate a scaled business which includes integration in bottling as well as, as I said, EMA ethanol multi markets, whether it’s within the state, outside the state as well as outside India, at that capacity utilization at the scale we are, we believe that the margins are around five to seven rupees per litre. Each company has their own situation. Some people are more concentrated in a particular region.
So if you did do a deep dive into one of our factories, you might find that margins are a little bit higher. So given the spread we have, the scale we have, we believe five to seven is what is our number.
Unidentified Participant
And then because of the fact that probably ENA or bulk alcohol is the raw material for all the divisions, there is no risk of any cross subsidization of margins inter division, right?
Shekhar Swarup
No, we have a policy on that. We maintain transfer prices of ENA between divisions at after factoring in a 5 rupee margin for the manufacturing business. So that’s within the zone. However, the bulk sale number that I’m reporting to you does not include the volume. Does not include the manufacturing volume.
Unidentified Participant
Okay, sure. Thank
Operator
You. Thank you. Our next question come from the line of Ikea Manya from answer. Please go ahead. Participant has left the queue. We’ll move forward to the next participant. Our next question comes from the line of Nishan but from Equity Works Ltd. Please go ahead.
Abneesh Roy
Yeah, good afternoon. She. Can you just explain the manufacturing segment once more? Because you mentioned that there was a strategic shift which you did in which led to the one time inventory buildup. So will this, the blitz which has been caused in the volumes, will it be recovered in the next quarter in the Q1?
Shekhar Swarup
Yes, it will be. So this is due to a longer supply cycle that exists in EMA both for within India Seal and for outside India seal because of a larger, you know, paperwork requirement because EMA can be converted to alcohol. States want to protect their revenue and therefore need far more accountability on the movement of alcohol. So that increases the supply lead time as compared to ethanol which doesn’t have that requirement of paperwork. Because of the substantial shift in the east, especially in Bihar and Jharkhand, we saw a buildup in inventory and that should get normalized or reduced in Q1.
Abneesh Roy
And regarding this one question was regarding the Rajasthan policy which, which was a recent announcement, right. I think you, you declared that there is a 50% decrease in the bottling fee which will happen
Shekhar Swarup
Export. So that is the material. So the material that’s produced in Rajasthan and that is sold outside of Rajasthan,
Abneesh Roy
We
Shekhar Swarup
Will have a nominal increase in profit or rather reduction in cost on that portion. So that impacts up in any business. But frankly it’s a nominal amount which, which is, you know, part of the business plan now going forward.
Abneesh Roy
Got it. That’s about it from my side. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Our next question comes from the line of Ashish from LEO Capital. Please go ahead.
Abneesh Roy
Hi, thank you for taking my question. I wanted to know what’s the net debt levels as of now and what are the working capital needs in the RNO as well as the IMFL business and how many days of working capital does it need?
Shekhar Swarup
Nilanjan, can you take that please?
Nilanjan Sarkar
So the net debt business for the company is at 627 crores. That’s the net debt. And the working capital days for RNO is five to six days.
Shekhar Swarup
That’s exactly the imo. Right. So for RNO that number will go up slightly.
Nilanjan Sarkar
Yeah.
Shekhar Swarup
In Q1 and onwards.
Paramjit Singh Gill
Oh. Okay.
Abneesh Roy
Okay. Got it. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Our next question come from the line of Aditya Patel from State street. Please go ahead.
Chandrasekhar Sridhar
Hi, I’m audible.
Operator
I’m sorry but your voice is very low.
Chandrasekhar Sridhar
Is this better? Am I audible now?
Operator
Because still we can’t hear you. Our discipline left the queue. Our next question comes from the line of manoj and individual. Mr.
Abneesh Roy
Yeah. Thank you very much sir. Giving me the opportunity. So my question is just. I was going through your investor presentation that you have the plan by FY29 to go in another eight state. So what will be your strategy for going to the other geography? So is it by acquisition or our existing manufacturing unit will be able to handle on this new territory? That’s my first question.
Shekhar Swarup
Okay, so. So the expansion. See even in one of the. Let me just step back. Even in the current market of for example Assam we are going with third party manufacturing. So every state that we expand will not have a captive global manufacturing unit servicing it. It depends on the efficiency. If we find that our unit servicing is more efficient we will choose our unit obviously as a base unit to service that state. Whether in state or the neighboring state. Alternately we will choose the best possible business partner who will manufacture on our behalf.
When we said the eight stage that is the minimum number where we definitely are ensuring the expansion will happen. And as we keep moving forward, you know there is no reason to say that number can’t go up. But that is what we have baked in and massaged in our guidance when we came up with the F29 business plan. And we stand committed to that.
Abneesh Roy
Okay, thank you very much for spreading. Enter my. Another question is
Shekhar Swarup
Means
Abneesh Roy
What is the
Shekhar Swarup
Realization per cases for our. That that is this is a premium product which is the Doab and Terai family which is nowhere it is mentioned. So first I wanted to know
Abneesh Roy
How much is there means the realization per cases in
Shekhar Swarup
We. We do not release that isn’t it?
Nilanjan Sarkar
No, we don’t release it. We don’t release
Shekhar Swarup
It. You know we will have to do an internal hurdle because you know as of now we are not releasing the realization by category. Yeah. We have. We have obviously in our paper called out our gross margin and we have in the. In the business plan called out that our gross margins will be in the range of. If I’m. If I’m just recalling correctly in the range of about 47 odd percent in London.
Nilanjan Sarkar
Yeah.
Shekhar Swarup
And also. And
Nilanjan Sarkar
Also if you refer to our last investor date you’ll get a fair Idea of our MRP equivalent to Mumbai pricing. That will give you an mrp.
Shekhar Swarup
Yeah. So we don’t realize. We don’t release realization per case on an ongoing basis. So is there any harm for
Abneesh Roy
Giving something some
Shekhar Swarup
Food for us to think about? Let us see if there is any. Anything that sort of comes as a concern to us. Let’s. Let’s take your question away and. And mull through it so we’ll make a note of it.
Abneesh Roy
I’m sorry,
Shekhar Swarup
My line got disconnected. I think it makes sense to show the core markets NSV and keep emerging markets out. Because emerging markets can impact the numbers considerably. No, the net realization per case. The conversation was around net realization and I’ve taken it on board. As Manoj was asking is there any harm in sharing that information? I said no, it’s something we will. We will just do internal think around it and try and weigh the decision and then we’ll come back on it. But we have taken your thought and input on board.
Abneesh Roy
Okay, sir. Thank you very much. That’s all for myself.
Shekhar Swarup
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Our next question come from the line of Chandrasekhar Sridhar from Fidelity International. Please go ahead.
Abneesh Roy
Hi. Good afternoon. I have three questions. One for Niranjan. Sorry, if you could just remind me again on the mathematics. And how are you going to save on interest cost? Because it just seems that we’re going to go down. It’s going to be 14, 15 crores a quarter. So where does it free up sort of the money to invest in the IMFL business? That’s the first question. Second question for Shekhar. You did mention about the profitability of the bulk segment. But. And what you did say that more structurally I think the long term is five to seven.
So you do say there is a possibility. I mean just in the near term that we can still overshoot that number. But just from a prudent assumption, the way you think about it, it’s more of five to seven over the long run. And maybe just one question for Param. Did I hear you right that you said that sort of IMF and profitability is now pushed to F27? Thank you.
Shekhar Swarup
No, no, no. So the way we said it was that we had called out Chandrasekhar was that in the third complete year of operation our endeavor is to make each individual state profitable. Okay. After completing three full years we have called out that out of five states four are profitable and one is still work in progress. Purely from the fairness of where we set out from then the question was Another question which revolved around that while our cumulative losses in the first three quarters were in the range of about four and a half cross crores, which means 1.5 crores per quarter, Q4 suddenly came at 5 crores.
What does it do? Contextually answering that I said these investments are basis the requirement of our growth path. At that point of time we may choose to over invest in an emerging market, we may choose to spread geography, we may choose to add a market. And then Shekhar had also given a addendum to it that in this particular case There was a 3 crore additional investment made because over the years we have realized that it is better to enter new brands a little before the excise year begins rather than delay or drag if they are up and ready.
So in that context we had answered, we had not said in any way that the profitability is pushed forward or backward. It was the concern that are the losses going to be 5 crores per quarter by one of the investor family persons on the call? I don’t remember the name. It was in that context the conversation happened.
Abneesh Roy
Yeah. Does that clarify?
Chandrasekhar Sridhar
Sure.
Abneesh Roy
So
Shekhar Swarup
Your question regarding margins, in fact I can take up both regarding liquidity and margin. So margins, you know, you understood correctly, we’ve overshot the guidance. Strategically we should be within the guidance. What we do see is typically end of Q1 into Q2 and this is an annual sort of feature with monsoons, you know, across the country, raw material fuel prices, that is just a general bit of inflation in, in agriculture commodities. And then again going into end of Q3 and Q4 we see raw material prices come down.
So you know, it’s five to seven is the guidance, you know, we will have periods of a little bit higher and a little bit lower. And you know, the year we’ve closed at 6.3, so I see that we will continue to be within that 5 to 7 range. Q4, 8.3 doesn’t mean that Q1 also will be 8.3. It is a bit of a seasonal business with regard to agri commodity purchase with regard to liquidity. The debt optimization had two parts. I think the first thing that we were after was reducing cash flow debt repayment burden so that you know, it frees up liquidity.
And the other thing that we went after was interest rates. The team did a fantastic job on this and I think we’ve saved a total of 50 crores. Is that right? 50 crores for FY27. 50
Nilanjan Sarkar
Crores, yes.
Shekhar Swarup
Yeah.
Abneesh Roy
Sorry. So you’re essentially saying you refied it in sort of the principles. You push it back a little further. Sort of principal payments. Is that. Yes, that saves up the. Okay, okay. So the debt treatment obligations go down this year also.
Nilanjan Sarkar
Also, to add to what Shekhar says that we. We have also renegotiated our interest. Interest rates. Our interest rate should effectively come down by. Come down by two and a half to three crores, which effectively means that our debt levels will also come down on borrowings by another 30 to 35 crores.
Abneesh Roy
Thank you.
Shekhar Swarup
Yeah. Be that as it may, up has been capitalized, so interest will go back to around 14, 15 crores per quarter. Yeah.
Nilanjan Sarkar
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you so much. Ladies and gentlemen, due to the time constraint. That was the last question for today. I now hand the conference over to Mr. Shaker Soaru for closing comments. Thank you. And over to you, Soharu.
Shekhar Swarup
Thank you everyone for joining us today. And if there are any unanswered questions, please do reach out to us and we will get back to you as soon as possible. Thank you again. Have a great day and a good weekend. Bye.
Operator
Thank you so much. On behalf of Global Spirits Limited. That concludes this conference. Thank you for joining us. And you may now disconnect your lines.