Khadim India Ltd (KHADIM) Q4 FY21 Earnings Concall Transcript

Khadim India Ltd. (NSE: KHADIM) Q4 FY21 earnings Concall dated Jun. 22, 2021.

Corporate Participants:

Girish Pai — Investor Relations

Siddhartha Roy Burman — Chairman and Managing Director

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

Analysts:

Deepan Sankara Narayanan — Trustline Portfolio Management Service — Analyst

Monika Arora — Sharegiants Wealth Advisors — Analyst

Deepak Poddar — Sapphire Capital Partners — Analyst

Jignesh Makwana — Asian Markets Securities — Analyst

Naitik Mody — OHM Portfolio Equi Research — Analyst

Gaurav Jogani — Axis Capital Limited — Analyst

Bhargav Buddhadev — Kotak Mutual Fund — Analyst

Vishal Chopda — UTI Mutual Fund — Analyst

Abhishek Jain — Arihant Capital Markets — Analyst

Harsh Shah — B&K Securities — Analyst

Girish Pai — Nirmal Bang Institutional Equities Private Limited — Analyst

Amit Luthra — Individual Investor — Analyst

Vikash Shah — AQ Capital Limited — Analyst

Presentation:

Operator

Ladies and gentlemen, good day and welcome to Khadim India Limited Q4 FY ’21 Earnings Conference Call hosted by Nirmal Bang Institutional Equities Private Limited. [Operator Instructions] And there will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the presentation concludes. [Operator Instructions]

I now hand the conference over to Mr. Girish Pai from Nirmal Bang Equities. Thank you, and over to you, sir.

Girish Pai — Investor Relations

Good afternoon. On behalf of Nirmal Bang Institutional Equities, I welcome you all to the interaction with the management of Khadim Limited to discuss the 4Q FY ’21 results. We have with us from the management: Mr. Siddhartha Roy Burman, Chairman and Managing Director; Ms. Namrata Chotrani, CEO; Mr. Indrajit Chowdhury, CFO. Without further ado, I will hand over the floor to the Khadim management to make their opening comments after which we’ll open the floor for Q&A.

Over to you Mr. Burman.

Siddhartha Roy Burman — Chairman and Managing Director

[Foreign Speech] Good evening, everyone. We welcome you to this conference call to discuss the fourth quarter results of financial year 2021. Hope everyone continues to be safe and I would like to start off appreciating the relentless effort of our COVID warriors. After a positive festive season in Q3 normalcy had started to settle people lives. This was reflected in the consumer behavior and recovery numbers.

We grew with a healthy pace in retail and distribution. With regards to both retail and distribution, the focus in Q4 has been to consolidate the outstanding and inventory holdings. This has helped us have a linear balance sheet, we have also seen a substantial improvement in gross margin in both retail and distribution business, all the metrics are showing a turnaround in the positive direction. Over the years, our company has stood the test of time and emerge stronger for the challenges we have faced. Financial year 2021 was the toughest challenge faced not just by Khadim’s, but by the industry and gold at a large.

Coming to our performance for Q4 FY ’21. On year-to-year basis the revenue was 70.6% at INR269.90 crores. The revenue also revised a boost from an institutional order from Educational Department of Uttar Pradesh Government are through the INR128 crores to supply school bags. Gross margin in retail and distribution business improved to 47.6% and 38.5% respectively.

EBITDA and PAT turned positive at INR14 crores and INR11.54 respectively, compared to losses in Q4 ’20. Even though there was a set back, due to the second wave leading to another round of lockdown and store closure in April and May. Our team is motivated to put their best foot forward and drive the company with scale new heights. We are working on the vaccination effort for our staff, we will continue to focus on sustainable value creation for our resilient business.

Despite the recent lockdown, we are optimistic that the demand for the affordable fashion will only increase. We are looking forward to put the worst for the pandemic behind us, and delighted our customer with exciting products. We have come out through the very young and vibrant range of spring/summer festive and autumn/winter collection. We are looking forward to see the response from our customers.

We thank you for continuing support and remain confident on emerging stronger as our strategic plan remain intact. We can now proceed question-and-answer. Thank you very much.

Questions and Answers:

Operator

Thank you very much. We will now begin the question-and-answer session. [Operator Instructions] The first question is from the line of Deepan Sankara Narayanan from Trustline Portfolio Management Service. Please go ahead.

Deepan Sankara Narayanan — Trustline Portfolio Management Service — Analyst

Thanks a lot for the opportunity and good afternoon everyone. Firstly, I wanted to understand the — during Q4, have we seen the trend of customer moving to higher price points? And also of higher order value?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

Hi, Mr. Narayanan, thanks for your questions. [Technical Issues] that we have seen an improvement in the customer behavior. Last year, I think as we had mentioned in the previous call, that the focus was more on the lower price items and, you know, it was more specific to Athleisure wear and also lot of home wears. But in Q3, given the festive season, and after that, given the normalcy kicks in, people start going back to work and started enjoying life normally which was reflective in the way the consumer also was purchasing. And which is why we saw an improvement in the average billing value and the ASP.

Deepan Sankara Narayanan — Trustline Portfolio Management Service — Analyst

Okay. So what is the kind of ASP and volume growth in retail and distribution business, sorry.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

So in the retail business, we have seen approximately a 3% increase in ASP.

Deepan Sankara Narayanan — Trustline Portfolio Management Service — Analyst

Okay.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

And in distribution, we have in approximately 1%, 2% increase in ASP. The thing is that in distribution, again the focus the entire year has been more on open footwear, compared to the previous year, and that trend continued till the end of the year. So despite taking whatever incremental price increases and whatever like the sales mix that we price changing. Given that the overall ASP growth looks subdued. But in terms of the category for open footwear [Technical Issues] higher than ASP.

Deepan Sankara Narayanan — Trustline Portfolio Management Service — Analyst

Okay, okay. And specifically — if we see, distribution gross margins has increased from 33% to 37% lower past two, three years. But growth in revenues have been dropping. So even for — particularly for the Q4 quarter also, we have seen some of the industry players growing well in distribution [Technical Issues]. What is the main reason for the degrowth in distribution in Q4?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

No. So I think as I have mentioned earlier that there has been in — substantial increase in the ASP in the open footwear [Technical Issues] Q4 as an example, there has been, I mean, for — in the entire year, there has been increase of approximately 5% in the open footwear segment, which is mainly Hawai and your PVC and EVA.

In — so while the Q4 there has been something good is purely because as Mr. Burman mentioned earlier in the call, that the focus for Q4 for us — for both in the distribution business and the franchisee business was to consolidate our outstanding and to make our balance sheet much more stronger. So that did compromise and looking on sale and we were happy to take that compromise given that we were hoping on it, consolidating our outstanding and our balance sheet and our working capital. It also help to build our business in a more healthy manner [Technical Issues] and that’s something which we had mentioned on the couple of calls [Technical Issues] looking at, you know, improving our working capital days and running the business in a more healthy manner.

Siddhartha Roy Burman — Chairman and Managing Director

And if you see in the distribution — in the figure — first quarter there was a lockdown for 1.5 months. But if you see the second quarter, the distribution business grown by 16%, first quarter 35% and fourth quarter 7%. So in the three quarters after the first quarter the distribution business has grown, where there is — we were able to achieve 2% higher sales, selling 10.5 months, compared to 12 months in FY ’20.

Deepan Sankara Narayanan — Trustline Portfolio Management Service — Analyst

Okay, okay, that’s good. And finally, the growth in sub-brand contribution has been falling over past three years. So if we see 48%, it was there in FY ’18, it has fallen to 40% in FY ’21. So, are we seeing improvements in sub-brands in future? And what are the strategies we are adapting to improve that?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

I’m not sure about where is this data, because this may have been the sales in FY ’21, but not necessarily in FY ’20, the sub-brand contribution as a percent of sales was almost 60% and that will continue once normalcy kicks in. That I don’t know…

Siddhartha Roy Burman — Chairman and Managing Director

[Indecipherable] I think FY ’21, the retail sale has come down from INR490 crores in FY ’20 to INR306 crores, I mean, we’ve seen the — after the — once lockdown, there was a demand for Hawai Chappals and PVC sandal, which are basically cutting products. So that’s why this year there may — might be that the share of sub-brands had come down, but in the normal year, again the sub-brand contribution will be in the range of 58% to 60%.

Deepan Sankara Narayanan — Trustline Portfolio Management Service — Analyst

Okay, thanks a lot and all the best.

Operator

Thank you very much. [Operator Instructions] The question the next question is from the line of Monika Arora from Sharegiants Wealth Advisors. Please go ahead.

Monika Arora — Sharegiants Wealth Advisors — Analyst

Yes, sir. Thank you for giving me this opportunity. So one of the components, which is rent is a major part of our expenses. So especially after the second wave of COVID, earlier we had negotiated for the rents in all, but are we again negotiating? Or it is back to normal? Or what it is? The status I want to know.

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

Last year, if you see the balance sheet and profit and loss account, we have saved around INR7.5 crores of rent, which is shown in other income. Again this year again after the second wave we are — when started the negotiation with the landlord and trying to get the same amount of benefit that we got in the first — during the first wave. But in the lockdown period in second wave is comparatively lower than the first wave, so negotiation from the landlord and would be a difficult task, but we’re trying to get as much benefit as we could.

Monika Arora — Sharegiants Wealth Advisors — Analyst

Okay. Sir, my another question is — we see that these small players — the small private label players or other small players, like they are also present in the online brands. So what is the specific competitive intensity from these players? And how is the competitive intensity otherwise in the sector?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

May I know which smaller brand you’re referring to ma’am?

Monika Arora — Sharegiants Wealth Advisors — Analyst

The — like smaller brands like the common brands, which are present all over in the online segments like there is a brand known as Pink & Blue. It’s a Big Bazaar own brand. So, they also sell these — their online products to this brand through their own platform. There are various small brands, which are present on the Flipkart, assure.com, Reliance. So these small runs I’m talking about.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

No — so I think there are a lot of brands definitely there even in the online and offline field, but there will always be competition and also healthy thing to happen. We definitely — but having said that creating our brand even in today’s time was a very expensive burn — cash burn under required good amount of investment in the, kind of, brand recall we have in the country. It has come over lot of many years of sustaining in the market and also giving the kind of products and offerings that we do. So, yes, the potential — given that e-commerce in online is definitely picking up, we are also trying our best to ensure that we are available in all the marketplaces. But I mean, you can’t stop brands to start coming up, but I think this is a healthy thing to happen.

Having said that [Technical Issues] so the affordable fashion is what is here to say. A lot of premium brands are doing well, but, you know, at — in the current scenario and even last year the demand for affordable fashion is only — it has only increased. So I think from our perspective, I think it’s a good thing for the current demand that is coming in.

Monika Arora — Sharegiants Wealth Advisors — Analyst

Okay, okay, fine. And moreover we would you get a edge over these local brands, because we market our brands in a better way plus our customers are repeat customers too. Could we see that way?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

Yes, definitely [Technical Issues] I didn’t say the lot of brands coming and lot of smaller brand, unbranded brands or even smaller unorganized players. But potential and the brand recall of a brand like Khadim is always going to have a better footfall or eyeball, compared to any other brand. There is also trust involved, because of the longetivity of the brand.

Monika Arora — Sharegiants Wealth Advisors — Analyst

Sure, sure. Thank you so much.

Operator

Thank you. [Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Deepak Poddar from Sapphire Capital Partners. Please go ahead.

Deepak Poddar — Sapphire Capital Partners — Analyst

Yes. Thank you very much for the opportunity…

Operator

Sir, sorry to interrupt you. You are not audible at all. May I request you to speak over the handset.

Deepak Poddar — Sapphire Capital Partners — Analyst

Hello?

Operator

Sir, your audio is still low.

Deepak Poddar — Sapphire Capital Partners — Analyst

Seems better now?

Operator

Little bit.

Deepak Poddar — Sapphire Capital Partners — Analyst

Okay. Sir just wanted to understand if any kind of outlook that you can share for FY ’22, that would be helpful.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

Sorry, can you be little louder than this?

Deepak Poddar — Sapphire Capital Partners — Analyst

Yes. Sir any kind of outlook that you can share for FY ’22, that would be quite helpful.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

So frankly, I think our FY ’22 was something we were looking at trying to ensure that the vaccinations will begin and we’ll possibly be able to get the same level as FY ’20 adjusting for the last 15 days as well. But I think, you know, given the wave that has started in March, April and continued in May, and this is — there are people talking about third wave, I think to commit any number, you know, given any perspective on how this market is going to turn is your guess versus mine. But having said that I think is the ideal scenario, I think we’d like to grow on the retail by around 10% to 12% and distribution approximately 15%. So that’s the way ideally we would like to grow. I think, but there’s a lot of uncertainty and ambiguity in this time. And I think hopefully in the next few months it will be a little more clear for us to give you a more clear answer as well.

Deepak Poddar — Sapphire Capital Partners — Analyst

Understood, understood. That’s it from me. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you very much. The next question is from the line of Jignesh Makwana from Asian Markets Securities. Please go ahead.

Jignesh Makwana — Asian Markets Securities — Analyst

Yes. Thank you for the opportunity. I had just one clarification, based on your data, what you have given on a gross profit for the retail and distribution business. If I do the simple math, my gross profit should be somewhere between around INR73 crores, but the actual gross profit comes to INR60 crores. Is it — are we making losses on the distribution business?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

No, there is not a losses from distribution business. There are some other elements, if you see the accounts, there are some other costs that are in the gross profit margin. So that cost are, I mean, attracted in the profit and loss account, but if you see the distribution and the retail business separately, so this is the margin that is before the IndAS impact. There are some costs that are deducted from the sales, that’s why that margin is coming to INR60 crores, but this is the margin before IndAS adjustment.

Jignesh Makwana — Asian Markets Securities — Analyst

Okay, and we have booked distributional orders if it’s, you know, INR128 crore in FY ’21. So how much that revenue we have booked in Q4?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

Total revenue is booked in Q4.

Jignesh Makwana — Asian Markets Securities — Analyst

Okay, okay. But then again, if I’m doing the mathematic details of INR106 crores and INR59 crores from the distribution in about INR128 crores from the institutional business, then my revenue should be higher than INR270 crores?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

No, I think your — whatever math, take that question offline. You can share your excel sheet. We’ll clarify it.

Jignesh Makwana — Asian Markets Securities — Analyst

Sure, sure. And what is our growth — particularly the expansion plan for FY ’22?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

Sorry, can you repeat your question. Your voice is a bit low.

Jignesh Makwana — Asian Markets Securities — Analyst

Yes, so my question is that what kind of expansion we are looking in FY ’22, number of stores expansion on the COCO side?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

So in terms of total number of stores we’re looking at expanding approximately 80 to 100 stores is what our target is for the year, including all company and outlet and franchises.

Jignesh Makwana — Asian Markets Securities — Analyst

Okay, okay. And then lastly, how much price hike we put in distribution business in this quarter?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

Sorry can you repeat?

Jignesh Makwana — Asian Markets Securities — Analyst

How much price we put in distribution business in this particular quarter?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

See we have taken approximately in Hawai and PVC segment was taken at approximately 10% to 11% hike in the entire year.

Jignesh Makwana — Asian Markets Securities — Analyst

Okay, so that means our volume is of a low about 3% to 4% on the business this year?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

Can you repeat the — your…

Jignesh Makwana — Asian Markets Securities — Analyst

Yes, is it better?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

Yes.

Siddhartha Roy Burman — Chairman and Managing Director

Yes.

Jignesh Makwana — Asian Markets Securities — Analyst

Yes. So the debt indicator we have witnessed a volume decline in distribution business in this particular quarter?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

That has already been told, because in this quarter we have, I mean, the credit norms was stricter and of that the growth is around 7%, compared to 35% growth in Q3.

Jignesh Makwana — Asian Markets Securities — Analyst

Okay, okay, thank you. That’s it from my side.

Operator

Thank you. [Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Naitik Mody from OHM Portfolio Equi Research. Please go ahead.

Naitik Mody — OHM Portfolio Equi Research — Analyst

Hi, thanks for the opportunity. You said in the opening remarks, the CMD said there is a effort to consolidate the receivable and inventory rationalization. So could you elaborate more on the receivables part? Was it more — what to do with the distribution business? Or is it more to the franchisee business? And how much is already done? And how much is still left?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

See the franchisee business the debtors as on 31st March 2019 was INR59 crores INR20 crores it goes to INR35 crores to December 20 it was INR25 crores, and now it has come down to INR17.5 crores. In distribution FY ’19 it was INR34 crores, FY ’20 it was INR41 crores. December 20, INR29.92 crores and March 21, it is INR21.16 crores. So in case of franchisee we tried to keep the level at — we are trying to keep the level at 45 days. And in case of distribution we are trying to keep the level at 30 days.

Naitik Mody — OHM Portfolio Equi Research — Analyst

30 days, okay. So this will be the normalized scenario going ahead?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

Yes.

Naitik Mody — OHM Portfolio Equi Research — Analyst

And what was it earlier, if I say look at ’19 and ’20?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

In franchisee it was 72 days and distribution it was around 50 days.

Naitik Mody — OHM Portfolio Equi Research — Analyst

Okay, okay, okay. Sine so — all right. And — but wouldn’t that also, sort of, also hit your margins. Would you have to take lower gross margins. So as to effect this kind of receivable days?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

No the sales was less in the fourth quarter as you have seen distribution growth was around 7%, but you have to take corrective action and then when the demand comes the volume automatically grows and the sales will grow — keeping the receivables at the same level.

Naitik Mody — OHM Portfolio Equi Research — Analyst

No, that is fine. I’m not referring to this quarter, per se. I’m just speaking, I mean, just saying generally on an annual basis, if you were to reduce your debtor days from, let’s say 72 to 45 in franchisee and [Technical Issues] 50 to 30 in distribution, wouldn’t that also mean that you will have to take a gross margin hit? I mean, sell them at a lower price, so as to effect these, kind of, working capital days — debtor days?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

See your working capital thing also gets improved, you are saving in finance cost, but the working capital and margin — and gross margin doesn’t changes, because gross margin mean if I sell at 45 days or at 70 days, the margin remains the same, but is the better utilization of working capital, which gives you benefit in finance cost.

Naitik Mody — OHM Portfolio Equi Research — Analyst

All right, fine. Anyway, I’ll take that up offline with this you — this with you. Secondly, you mentioned that you have booked the entire institutional order of Uttar Pradesh department in this quarter itself. Is that correct?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

Yes.

Naitik Mody — OHM Portfolio Equi Research — Analyst

So which means, there is actually a 10% degrowth in your top line for your footwear business? If I were to remove this order?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

Yes.

Naitik Mody — OHM Portfolio Equi Research — Analyst

Okay. And what is the sort of gross margins we make in institutional business?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

The gross margin — the net margin at around 3.5%.

Naitik Mody — OHM Portfolio Equi Research — Analyst

3.5%.

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

There is no other cost involved up for the gross margin.

Naitik Mody — OHM Portfolio Equi Research — Analyst

Okay, okay, fine. All right, sir. Thank you very much.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

You know, I think just to clarify to you, I think this role in our retail business were up 6% and distribution by approximately 7%. So…

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

In the fourth quarter.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

In the fourth quarter. I’m not sure what…

Naitik Mody — OHM Portfolio Equi Research — Analyst

Fourth quarter FY ’20 also had an institutional component?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

Just a minute.

Naitik Mody — OHM Portfolio Equi Research — Analyst

Yes.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

Yes, if there was a small amount, but it wasn’t a large amount. It was around INR7.5 crores in the last year fourth quarter.

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

With both retail and distribution there is a growth in fourth quarter.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

I’m not sure what numbers you’re referring to.

Naitik Mody — OHM Portfolio Equi Research — Analyst

[Speech Overlap] INR128 crores last year.

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

You are taking INR128 crores, but the matrix is INR115 crores. So that you should deduct INR115 crores from the total sales. INR128 crores is the gross sale.

Naitik Mody — OHM Portfolio Equi Research — Analyst

Okay. All right sir. All right, thank you.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

When I think just clarifying one of the previous question also either there was a volume growth in the distribution business of approximately — in the fourth quarter of approximately 6%. And there was, I think, when you are looking at the entire year there will definitely be a volume degrowth, because the first quarter, there was no, I mean, first quarter with limited growth. So in the fourth quarter, there has been a growth of approximately 6% in the volumes.

Naitik Mody — OHM Portfolio Equi Research — Analyst

All right. Fine, thanks. That’s helpful.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Gaurav Jogani from Axis Capital Limited. Please go ahead.

Gaurav Jogani — Axis Capital Limited — Analyst

Yes, hi. Thank you for taking my questions. Am I audible?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

Yes.

Operator

Yes, sir.

Gaurav Jogani — Axis Capital Limited — Analyst

So my question is with regards to the raw material trend, I mean, what sort of inflation trend are you seeing in the raw material? And is the pricing increases that you have taken is enough as to cover that inflation or you might need to take further price increases?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

Can you — your voice is a bit low. Can you please speak a bit louder.

Gaurav Jogani — Axis Capital Limited — Analyst

Sure. So, my question was with regards to the raw material inflation. What kind of raw material inflation are you witnessing in the RM index? And whether the price increases that you have already expected covers this inflation, or you need to take further price increases?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

So the price increase in the footwear segment has been extremely high in the raw material space. Just to give you a perspective across the major raw materials, which are used in the footwear segment it is, you know, you will have EVA, rubbers, PU, PVC, kind of price increases that we have seen over there has been in the range of 40% to 50% in the entire year — over the entire year from last to — sometime this year. So, as the price increases — but the raw material components, there is a lot of other raw materials which is part of it, of the final product. But I think the price increase that we have taken have adjusted for the raw material price increases also.

Gaurav Jogani — Axis Capital Limited — Analyst

Sure.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

Now, we do not need to do too much further increase to protect — for the — against the raw material, but if there is a further price increase, then we may have to take a further price increase.

Gaurav Jogani — Axis Capital Limited — Analyst

Okay. What about the competition? Has the competition also effected a similar price increases because our check suggests that the competition hasn’t taken similar price increases.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

No, so I think the competition also has taken price increases. I think for us in the last two, three years, the number of price increase that we have taken was relatively limited. The price differences that we had for similar products was pretty high, so we’ve tried to reduce the gap by taking multiple price increases this year. Having said that, the competition also has taken price increases. I think there was two price increases in the year for sure, adjusting for the raw material price increase. At least the organized players definitely have.

Gaurav Jogani — Axis Capital Limited — Analyst

Thank you so much. I mean, now the pricing-premium gap between you and the competition, has it reduced or has it remained more or less — are you premium in pricing versus the competition?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

Your first question is, has the price increase reduced. And your second question is?

Gaurav Jogani — Axis Capital Limited — Analyst

I’m saying, are you the premium to the competition in terms of pricing and has that gap reduced, the pricing-premium gap, has that reduced?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

So I think the pricing gap has definitely reduced in the year because you have taken this multiple price increases to reduce the gap because the product differentiation and the quality differentiation [Technical Issues] have very strong brand recall [Phonetic] in the markets that we’re present in. Presently, in terms of whether we are more premium or the other brand is more premium, I think it’s subject to the product. In some products we are more premium and we can command a better pricing. In some products, they are the premium and we are trying to try to figure out how to improve our product and our positioning and our marketing to be able to [Indecipherable] premium value. So I think this is subject to the product. I don’t think you can generalize totally.

Gaurav Jogani — Axis Capital Limited — Analyst

So I was talking on a weighted average level. I mean, if you just compare apple to apple, similar products, because you said the pricing-premium gap has reduced. So I was just trying to understand who was more premium and who was less premium earlier.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

It also depends on the product. Some of the competition — the branded and larger competitors have a good proportion of closed footwear [Phonetic] as well in the distribution segment. I’m not talking about the retail here. In the distribution segment, they have a decent proportion of closed footwear as well, which we are trying to build and I think which we have mentioned in the last couple of calls that our brand is focusing on the various product categories across the distribution segment which has also helped us improve our ASP and our margins. From that perspective, yes, other brands have a more premium product basket in terms of a larger product basket. But we are getting there. We are focusing a lot on the kind of products that we are getting. We are investing in people, we’re investing in merchandising. We’re investing in our factory as well to ensure that we’re able to be able to create a kind of product base so that we are able to meet the kind of ASPs and margins. In the current product mix that we have, as I said, it is subjected to the product — it’s very product specific.

Operator

Thank you. And sorry to interrupt you, Gaurav. I’ll request you to come back in the question queue for a follow-up question. [Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Bhargav from Kotak Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.

Bhargav Buddhadev — Kotak Mutual Fund — Analyst

Yes, good afternoon, team. It seems we’ve lost some market share in the distribution business in the fourth quarter on the back of tightening of working capital. So, is this [Indecipherable] in terms of tightening of working capital or was due to some loosening [Indecipherable] market share?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

Sorry. Can you — this is only [Indecipherable] working capital or?

Bhargav Buddhadev — Kotak Mutual Fund — Analyst

No. I mean if you look at your competitors’ growth in the distribution business, it is far superior as compared to your growth.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

Yes.

Bhargav Buddhadev — Kotak Mutual Fund — Analyst

So essentially, it seems like you’ve lost some market share in an effort to tighten your working capital.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

Yes.

Bhargav Buddhadev — Kotak Mutual Fund — Analyst

So can we expect similar working capital trends to continue in the distribution business or we’ll sort of resort to our old technic of [Indecipherable] relaxed working capital in order to chase volume growth?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

No, I think — as I’ve said, the idea was solid — our balance sheet and make it more healthy. Having said that, I mean in the third quarter, we have grown by 30% plus and the competition has not grown at such a healthy rate. Today we are — in the fourth quarter, yes, we have let go some sales, but it’s not that we’ll not be able to get back that sale or that share at all. I mean we’ll definitely get back. We have become stricter with regard to the working capital and that’s something what the distributors are also getting used to and it’s a relationship, which we are building with them. And that’s something which — any change will require some adjustments from both the sides, from our side and the distributor side as well. At [Indecipherable] they get used to this kind of working capital, and so I think the volume will grow accordingly. So I don’t think I’m too concerned about the growth in market share going forward.

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

So we’ll keep at a 30 days level of debtors in distribution business.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

That’s the target.

Bhargav Buddhadev — Kotak Mutual Fund — Analyst

And this tightening of working capital happens starting 4Q or has it happened much earlier?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

No. We have started the process from third quarter itself, but we’ve got a bit tighter in the fourth quarter, and that’s why you see the kind of numbers that you are. In fact [Indecipherable] reduction in the debtors in both distribution and retail business.

Bhargav Buddhadev — Kotak Mutual Fund — Analyst

Okay. Thank you very much.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Vishal Chopda from UTI Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.

Vishal Chopda — UTI Mutual Fund — Analyst

Yes. Hi team, thanks for taking my question. Actually my question was largely on the distribution business which got answered in the earlier participant’s question. So actually no question. Just one thing is that — I think till last quarter in the presentation we were giving the data on the post IND-AS basis. Now, this quarter we are giving on pre IND-AS. So it was very difficult to compare when the reported P&L is on the — is on different accounting — post IND-AS while your segmented numbers, margins actually are on pre IND-AS. So I think that’s why you get a lot of confusion with respect to the growth numbers and all. So I mean, is it possible please revert back to the old way of reporting in the presentation? That will be easy to understand because this is really confusing.

Operator

Vishal, sorry to interrupt you. We lost your audio in the between. Can I request you to repeat your question once again?

Vishal Chopda — UTI Mutual Fund — Analyst

No, no. I was just saying on the presentation the data we are providing, we are giving on post IND-AS basis while the — pre IND-AS basis while actually the results are on post IND-AS. So it’s very difficult to compare the segmental numbers with the reported P&L…

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

Hi Vishal.

Vishal Chopda — UTI Mutual Fund — Analyst

Hi, Indrajit.

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

Indrajit. The thing is that we wish to give at post IND-AS but there — IND-AS, what happens, our selling expenses are booked in different quarters. So it hampers the — you cannot see the actual margin growth in the business because whenever we give the price [Phonetic] note, that is adjusted. Suppose the price note third quarter is adjusted in fourth quarter. So what we can — I can do you — give you is that I can give you both pre IND-AS number and post IND-AS number. That I can give one to one. Otherwise, most of the people will not be able to see what the impact the business has done for a particular quarter because the IND-AS — suppose in fourth quarter last year, still selling expenses were less compared to fourth quarter this year, because the price note are given based on the scheme and all these things. So in order to have a — see the business growth and all these thing we have changed the model, but obviously we have both pre IND-AS and post IND-AS figures. That I can give you one to one.

Vishal Chopda — UTI Mutual Fund — Analyst

The trouble is that then we can’t correspond to the reported P&L. I mean, given people are trying to back calculate the institutional business and numbers get all wrong and even the gross margins on reported basis and segmental basis doesn’t correspond to, that is the problem. I get your point also. I get your point. But I think — I mean I know there are problems in both methods but I think it’s better if we continue to do it on post IND-AS basis only, I mean if that’s possible with you guys.

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

I can share you both pre IND-AS and post IND-AS numbers to you.

Vishal Chopda — UTI Mutual Fund — Analyst

Got it. Okay. Thank you.

Operator

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Shiv Bansal from Lighthouse Funds. Please go ahead. Shiv Bansal, may I request you to unmute your line from your side and good ahead with your question? Shiv Bansal, can you hear us? Due to no response, we move on to the next participant. The next question is from the line of Abhishek Jain from Arihant Capital Markets. Please go ahead.

Abhishek Jain — Arihant Capital Markets — Analyst

Sir, thank you for taking my question. I just wanted to know like because I’ve joined late in the call, if you can throw on the light — post unlock 2, how the things are shaping up and which are the segments — which are the regions you are seeing a faster pickup? Can you throw some light on the same, sir?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

So, the lockdowns have just started opening up and some of the states and I think it’s not — it’s not opened up across all the states. Even northeast [Indecipherable] open till 2:00 o’clock. Bihar is still opening up three days a week. So I think it’s still a bit — lockdown, it’s not only opened up but whatever has opened up, we are seeing that the recovery is a bit better than last year because I also think the reason people are a little relatively they are there — they know how to handle themselves. There is more experience in handling even the situation compared to last year. So we’re seeing the recovery to be better, and hopefully we should be able to — this trend should continue — momentum should continue. Fingers are crossed.

Abhishek Jain — Arihant Capital Markets — Analyst

And which are the areas or which are the segments you are seeing like things are looking good in last 15, 30 days [Indecipherable]?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

I think it is — I think it is — compared to last year, given that the impact in the last year was more in the cities — tier 2 or 3 cities, this year, I think it is — we are seeing a similar kind of trend across all the areas. [Indecipherable] will definitely be a little better, but I think the difference compared to last year is reduced.

Abhishek Jain — Arihant Capital Markets — Analyst

Okay. Thank you, ma’am.

Operator

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Harsh Shah from B&K Securities. Please go ahead.

Harsh Shah — B&K Securities — Analyst

Yes. Hi. Thanks for taking my question. Of the trade receivables which you have recorded in the balance sheet as on March ’21, on the INR120 crores, how much of the institutional order would be sitting in this amount?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

Around — out of that, INR120 crores — INR77 crores is from institutional business — institutional business.

Harsh Shah — B&K Securities — Analyst

Okay. So basically apart from that, it’s only INR53 crores, right, trade receivables?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

Yes. INR43 crores.

Harsh Shah — B&K Securities — Analyst

INR43 crores. I’m sorry, my bad. Okay. Fine. Thank you, sir.

Operator

[Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Girish Pai. Please go ahead.

Girish Pai — Nirmal Bang Institutional Equities Private Limited — Analyst

Yes. Thanks for the opportunity. Namrata, you came in a couple of years back and the Pradhika [Phonetic] Khadim had a decent IPO, then it went through a challenging phase. What do you think are the issues that Khadim was grappling with at that time and how well you tackled them as the CEO? And do you think you put all of them behind you? I mean the problems — are you still grappling with some of them and when do you think you will kind of tackle them? And if you do tackle them, what kind of EBITDA margins pre IND-AS 116 or do you think you can work with on a longer-term basis?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

Thanks for your question, Girish. Appreciate it. So I think while we were — I think after I joined — just prior to me joining, I think when you were analyzing as to what has gone wrong, there were a few things in terms of the way the product range was being structured, the way the premiumization was being structured, the way the gross margin was being addressed, the fixed cost implements, I think there were multiple challenges across the business. Even the way the outstanding, the increased around the franchisee business and distribution business. The focus on product across both the retail and distribution business had reduced. So I think what we have done is essentially try to improvise on the entire range architecture which I have mentioned earlier to ensure that it is more relevant to the younger audiences, which is more vibrant, more colorful. It is — it is in line with trying to ensure that we are increasing our ASP, we are increasing our gross margins. And the conversions increased in the store, the average billing value increased in the store, the EBIT increased in the store. So it is — there is more structure in the way we are looking at business. It’s a very data oriented structure that we’re looking at the business compared to how it was conducted earlier. There has been a very, very high focus on reducing the fixed costs; there has been a very high focus on improvising the working capital, and that is very apparent with the kind of metrics that we are seeing. There has been improvement in ASP, there has been improvement in gross margin; there been improvement — and which is visible in the kind of sales increase that we are seeing; there has been improvement in working capital efficiency which we are trying to ensure. And these metrics and this trend is definitely here to stay. We are ensuring and working on the — the fact that how to ensure that these metrics continue across both retail and distribution business. The only thing right now that is missing is the volumes, which hopefully by Q2 we’ll be able to see an upliftment. Q1 has been again much slower than what we were anticipating. So we’re very confident to ensure that this trend continues. What kind of EBITDA levels we will be looking at, I think as we’ve mentioned earlier, from 10% to 11% is what we’re targeting. In ideal scenario, hopefully we should be able to achieve it sooner than later once things normalize.

Girish Pai — Nirmal Bang Institutional Equities Private Limited — Analyst

Just a couple of more questions. This institutional business, how critical — do you think it’s an important business at all? And what kind of margins and return ratios would that be — would that business have compared to your — either distribution or your retail business?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

See, the margin in institutional business is lower, but that margin that we get from 3.5% to 4%, it is back to back with our vendors. So our working capital is not involved in this business and we are able to generate some margin out of — means, without investing any funds.

Girish Pai — Nirmal Bang Institutional Equities Private Limited — Analyst

Okay. My last question is regarding advertising and promotional spend. I don’t — can you give me the number for FY ’21? And I recall you saying I think, Namrata, that it will go down like 1% in FY ’22. Did I hear that right?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

No, I have not made a statement like that as of now, but I think we are not looking at spending more than 1%, 1.5% in this year. I think most of the spend will happen now maybe in end of Q3, during the festive. And maybe post that depending on how the trend goes. Again, as I said, when you start the year you have a certain plan and budget in mind. We had a budget of approximately 2%, but I’m not — but given the way the year has started and so much ambiguity around in terms of the entire sales coming in, footfalls and lockdowns, to give you an exact number of how we plan to send the marketing and advertisement is a bit premature right now, again. I think we’ll take it as it comes and how the year comes around.

Girish Pai — Nirmal Bang Institutional Equities Private Limited — Analyst

What was the number in FY ’21?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

Around INR4 crores.

Girish Pai — Nirmal Bang Institutional Equities Private Limited — Analyst

Okay. Thank you.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

This is pure advertisement. The sales promotion expense will be separate here.

Girish Pai — Nirmal Bang Institutional Equities Private Limited — Analyst

Okay. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Bhargav from Kotak Mutual Fund. Please go ahead.

Bhargav Buddhadev — Kotak Mutual Fund — Analyst

Yes, just one data point. What would be the receivable cycle for this institutional order?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

Generally it’s around six months.

Bhargav Buddhadev — Kotak Mutual Fund — Analyst

Six months?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

Yes.

Bhargav Buddhadev — Kotak Mutual Fund — Analyst

So what was the rationale for getting — so order, I mean at one end we are trying to curtail our receivable cycle. So what would be the rationale for taking up this institutional order then?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

As I told you in a previous question that our working capital is not involved in this institutional business. We work on a back to back with our vendors. So it’s — you are getting a margin without investing any money.

Bhargav Buddhadev — Kotak Mutual Fund — Analyst

Yes. So would that not be the case with our other businesses?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

Yes, the stock, you don’t hold any stock. It is receivables and creditors. But in other business, there is receivable stock, and if the stock is not sold, then it is a paid stock. Here, there is no paid stock, nothing, it’s only receivables and creditors. So whenever you get your receivables, you pay it to the creditors.

Bhargav Buddhadev — Kotak Mutual Fund — Analyst

Okay. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you very much. [Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Amit Luthra [Phonetic], an Individual Investor. Please go ahead.

Amit Luthra — Individual Investor — Analyst

Yes, hi. I hope my voice is audible.

Operator

Yes, sir. Go ahead.

Amit Luthra — Individual Investor — Analyst

Thanks for the opportunity. And I hope everybody is safe that, you know, on the other end. Quick two questions. So one is, where do we see our self in terms of our three to five years timeline, compared to the other brand?

And the second is in terms of what, sort of, plan for the EBITDA margins, compared to, I mean, other brands like, Bata and Relaxo, because we are at the little lower end. So where do we see our self arbitraging in terms of the same timeline for three to five years? Thank you.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

Thanks for your question, Amit. So I think in terms of next three to five years, where we’re seeing ourselves, I think, we definitely intend to have our focus on the product, both in retail and distribution. We definitely want to continue to be an affordable footwear fashion brand. We do intend to become a premium brands, we intend of premiumize within the affordable fashion segments itself. We continue — we want to continue to be catering to the entire family for all the [Technical Issues] so across all merchandised categories. Intend to grow the retail business by 10% to 12% year-on-year and distribution by around 15% year-on-year.

In terms of gross margin, so when you’re comparing to the other retail brands, you are seeing mainly the company owned outfit margins, which you compare on a like-for-like basis for that margin, we’re pretty much are in place there. Our margin is very comparable to the other brands when it comes to the gross margin, while seeing it relatively lower, because is also — we also have the franchisee business where we sell to the franchisee. With a certain reduced — giving them a certain amount of distribution margin — retail margin leaving some amount of margin, which is in the table for them to able to earn money. So that’s where the — average margin reduces. But on a product gross margin, we are pretty much comparable to all the other brands.

Amit Luthra — Individual Investor — Analyst

All right, thank you. I mean, just one last question. So I think you said, we are looking for 80 to 100 new stores in FY ’22. Any distribution in terms of regions like were on holiday period, it was just mostly confident on the [Technical Issues] we are trying to get into other regions. So is there any distribution that’s been targeted [Phonetic] for these new 100 stores?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

Sorry your — what — your question is for the stores — what is your question?

Amit Luthra — Individual Investor — Analyst

So the new stores, that 80 to 100 stores across the company-owned model and the franchisee that we’re targeting in FY ’22. So is there any distribution that we are targeting across the region basically?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

You’re asking in terms of where do we…

Amit Luthra — Individual Investor — Analyst

100 stores? Correct, in terms of the regions like where are — how we’re trying to distribute those.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

So we’re looking at the Northern side — the Northeast, the North, which includes the UP, Bihar, even Southern region Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Kerala some of the Western parts of Gujarat, Maharashtra. So I think is not specific to any particular area. We are pretty much looking at a Pan-India presence. All right. Thank you, Ma’am. All the best. Thank you.

Operator

Thank you very much. [Operator Instructions] The next question is from the line of Mr. Girish Pai. Please go ahead.

Girish Pai — Nirmal Bang Institutional Equities Private Limited — Analyst

I had a few questions, you mentioned 80 to 100 stores, how many of them would be COCO stores?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

So the COCO stores would to be around five to seven. We are looking at predominantly focusing on franchisees this year in terms of both allocation of capital protecting the P&L as well in terms of the fixed cost.

Girish Pai — Nirmal Bang Institutional Equities Private Limited — Analyst

So the other question is regarding gross margin. 4Q gross margin for the distribution business, I think, I recall the numbers were significantly better both on a Y-o-Y and a Q-o-Q basis. Is there any specific reason? Is that a one-off? Or do you think that is sustainable trend?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

So we’re definitely looking at a gross margin increase year-on-year. The reasons are both; one is the price increases and even the premiumization changes in the sales mix, product mix enhancement. The increased trend will definitely continue, we will continue focusing on trying to ensure that our product mix will lead to a growth in gross margin in our yearly basis across the dealer and distribution both.

Girish Pai — Nirmal Bang Institutional Equities Private Limited — Analyst

My last question is regarding your distribution business, obviously you — most likely working through multi-brand distributors. If you had stricter terms, do you think they will, kind of, built their business more towards the other brands? Or what do you think is going to incentivize them to sell your products?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

So in terms of the using of tightening of norms, I think everyone — every brand has its own credit policy and CD policy. So as to ensure that, you know, they are recovering the money faster than the others. We were a bit less — I believe we were a bit lenient and I think your strategy is correct that, if not that we are becoming stricter than the other brands. We are pretty much similar to be other brands.

And second question was, sorry can you repeat that?

Girish Pai — Nirmal Bang Institutional Equities Private Limited — Analyst

No, I was asking whether, because it’s stricter norms whether they will tilt more towards your others peers. And so what are the incentives for them to sell your products?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

So as I said we are become — we’re not more stringent, compared to the other brands. I believe we were more lenient, compared to the other brands. I think [Technical Issues] we are just correcting our leniency and becoming a more fairer, I would believe. And what is tilt for them to sell the — sell our brand is our brand recall. Yes, I mean we have a strong brand in our existing market and I think [Technical Issues] products we have the right product range, and I think we’re building on that as well. So I think it is in their interest of to sell the products, people have said demand for the brand product and we are offering.

Girish Pai — Nirmal Bang Institutional Equities Private Limited — Analyst

Okay, thank you.

Operator

Thank you. The next question is from the line of Vikash Shah from AQ Capital Limited. Please go ahead.

Vikash Shah — AQ Capital Limited — Analyst

Yes, hi. Just a quick question. Could you share the breakup of the revenue in terms of EVA, PV — PU, PVC and Hawai?

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

This year it has been more open footwear basis, so I’m not sure of this year would be a good benchmark is just the business at all. I would believe that Hawai, PVC, EVA contribute almost in normal times contributes almost 80% of the business, balance PU, Sports, Sport Sandal, Formal Shoes contribute 20% of the business.

Vikash Shah — AQ Capital Limited — Analyst

Okay, okay, that was helpful. Also typically, you know, what is the total capacity and the utilization? And what is the capex typically involved for incremental capex rather?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

Last year we have — at a capex of around INR3 crores for the total business. So whereas the mold — I mean, in factory it was around INR40 lakhs to INR50 lakhs for mold investment last year. But early in year, it means — in this year we’ll be going for a new press line, so that would be having a investment of around INR1 crores. So it will increase our capacity, right now we are having a capacity of around INR1,20,000 lakh Hawai per day, so that will be increased to around INR1,40,000 pair per day.

Vikash Shah — AQ Capital Limited — Analyst

Okay. And what is the current utilization?

Indrajit Chowdhury — Chief Financial Officer

In case of Hawai, it’s around 90% utilization and in case of PVC it is 60% to 65% utilization.

Vikash Shah — AQ Capital Limited — Analyst

Okay, that was helpful. Thanks a lot.

Operator

Thank you very much. [Operator Instructions] As there are no further questions. I will now hand the conference over to Mr. Girish Pai for closing comments.

Girish Pai — Investor Relations

Yes. That’s a company interaction that the Khadim management would like to thank it for giving us this obviously to host this call. Thank you all for taking part and have a good day.

Siddhartha Roy Burman — Chairman and Managing Director

Thank you.

Namrata Chotrani — Chief Executive Officer

Thank you for your time and interest. Appreciate it and look forward to connecting with you soon again.

Operator

[Operator Closing Remarks]