Note: This is a preliminary transcript and may contain inaccuracies. It will be updated with a final, fully-reviewed version soon.
360 One Wam Ltd (NSE: 360ONE) Q4 2026 Earnings Call dated Apr. 21, 2026
Corporate Participants:
Sanjay Wadwa — Chief Financial Officer
Karan Bhagat — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer
Analysts:
Mohit Mangal — Analyst
Praise Jain — Analyst
Abhijit Sakari — Analyst
Gaurav Jain — Analyst
Punjan Ghosh — Analyst
Unidentified Participant
Presentation:
Operator
Foreign. And welcome to 361 WAM Earnings Call for Q4FY26. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in listen only mode. In case you wish to ask questions or require assistance during the call, kindly signal the host by tapping on the raised hand icon. Please note this conference is being recorded on the call. Today we have with us Mr. Karan Bhagat, MDN CEO Mr. Yatin Shah, CEO of the Wealth Business, Mr. Sahil Murarka, CEO of 361 Capital, Mr. Sanjay Wadwas, CFO and Mr. Anshuman Maheshwari. I now hand it over to Mr.
Sanjay Wadwa to take this call forward.
Sanjay Wadwa — Chief Financial Officer
Thank you Anil. A very good evening to all the participants. FY26 has been a landmark year for 3611 in which we have delivered strong financial outcomes and also meaningfully expanded the platform to complete our flywheel. Our core tenets, the growth, resilience and agility have once again been validated In a year that tested markets and businesses alike, FY26 was characterized by complex interplay of global and domestic factors. Indian capital markets saw periods of increased volatility driven by evolving geopolitical dynamics and shifting global sentiments.
While equity indices touched bullish levels in the first half, markets witnessed phases of correction and and sectoral rotation through the year, testing investor conviction. Encouragingly, the Indian wealth and asset management ecosystem remained resilient supported by record SIP contributions, sustained monetization activity across IPOs, block deals, private equity exits and a growing investor preference for professionally managed and alternate asset classes. A progressive regulatory environment continues to strengthen transparency, investor conference and long term capital formation.
Let me turn to the numbers now. Our total ARR AUM increased to 311940 crores up 26% year on year. With wealth ARR AUM at 2,16,000 crores and Asset Management ARR at 95,000 crores. Total AUM stood at 6.7 lakh crores as on March 2026 reflecting a 22% CAGR over the last five years. More importantly, ARR AUM has grown at a CAGR of 26% in the same period and ARR revenues recorded a strong CAGR of 32%. ARR net flows for FY26 are at 55,875 crores. Of this, even if we exclude the acquisition related outflows, the organic FY26 net flows rose 36% to 35,199 crores representing 14% of our opening AUM within this Net flows on wealth were 25,900 crores and Asset Management at 9,299 crores reflecting robust momentum from our core UHNI franchise, maturing contribution from newly onboarded teams and demanding demand across all asset classes.
Within asset management, FY26 ARR revenue stood at 22.89crores up 34.5%. YoY and ARR revenue now comprising 75% of total revenue from operations. Q4 FY26 ERR revenue was at 605crores up 20.4% YoY ARR retention was at 78 basis points with wealth at 76 basis points and asset management at 83 basis points. Transaction and broking revenues rose 4.4% to 777crores for the full year and rupees 230crores for Q4 up 53.7% YoY. The strong Q4 numbers partly reflect the full quarter consolidation of 361 Capital, the institutional equities business formerly known as BNK securities whose broking revenue adds a structurally more consistent annuity like component to what has historically been a more transactional revenue stream.
Total revenue increased 18.6% to 3,144 crores for FY26 Q4 Revenue was rupees 780 crores up 18.5% of IOI driven by strong growth across both wealth and asset verticals partially offset by lower other income on cost. FY26 total cost stood at 1,568 crore. These are not directly comparable to FY25 due to consolidation of BNK securities and ET money. FY26 cost to income stood at 49.9%. However cost to total operating income stood at around 50% as against 49.5% during the previous quarter. The UHNI wealth and asset management cost to income ratios remain stable at 44.
45% with higher ratio reflecting investment phase of our newer businesses. We expect gradual improvement in this metrics as these businesses scale up. We drive synergies from strategic initiatives and incoming wealth Team reach full productivity as an update to our past communication on tax related matters, we have received an order today from the tax authorities with an aggregate demand of 336 crores. We believe that we have duly discharged all tax liabilities as applicable. We have adequate factual and legal grounds to substantiate our position and we do not expect any material impact on the financials or on our operations due to these orders.
We will pursue appeals against the entire order under the applicable laws. We are happy to report the company recorded its recorded its highest full year pat for in FY26 of 1,225 crores, an increase of 20.7%. Tangible ROE stood at 19.3% and we expect this to improve as capital deployed in our lending and alternate businesses begin to reflect in earnings. The Board has approved the first interim dividend of 6 rupees per share, continuing our disciplined capital allocation philosophy, returning capital to shareholders where we have surplus while retaining sufficient capacity to fund growth in our lending, alternate and strategic initiatives.
Moving on from the numbers to a brief update on our new business and strategic initiatives on the HNI segment, Our reserve program now has approximately 60 relationship managers across 12 locations managing close to 4000 crores of AUM for 650 plus clients at ARR retention yields of around 90 basis points. This is natural extension of our UHNI franchise and a powerful feeder pipeline in into our core proposition. With an increase in business momentum and RM productivity in the coming year we would expect the overall financial performance of this segment to improve significantly on ET money.
FY26 has been a year of strategic transformation on the business model and disciplined execution to drive multiple on ground changes. With different engines at play we would expect the business to head towards break even in the near term. The integration of BNK is now complete and the institutional equities business has been rebranded as 361 Capital. The business continues to perform strongly with over 500 mid and small cap companies under coverage, over 3300 institutional clients and over 90% cash segment share in the broking revenue.
Importantly, the expected strategic synergies are coming to life with brokerage revenues from UHNI clients seeing an uplift. Uplift and access to 600 plus corporate treasuries has opened distribution and lending channels. Our investment banking platform is being built out and we expect to begin it to begin meaningful contribution over the next 12 to 18 months. On the UBS collaboration cross referral programs in the wealth business across NRI Resident and Global mandates are showing positive early traction and we expect these to convert to meaningful relations over the coming financial year.
On the asset management side we are seeing early synergies with UBSS Global Distribution providing a pathway for our alternate and listed strategies to access offshore capital. As we look towards FY27 and beyond we remain confident despite ongoing volatility. Over 18 years we have navigated multiple challenges, challenging cycles and guided by Stepford focus on fundamentals and an unwavering commitment to client interest. Today we are supported by A strong balance sheet, a talented, high quality team and a culture anchored in doing the right things.
I would like to thank all our stakeholders who have been with us through these 18 years and with that I’ll hand it over to Karan for his comments.
Operator
Over to you karan. Please give us a minute while Karan joins in.
Karan Bhagat — Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer
Thank you Sanjay. Thank you everyone for logging into the call and good evening everybody. You know, given the fact that this a year end call, I’ll potentially take five minutes extra and talk a little bit about the strategy and where we see ourselves in context of the overall market and then open it up for question and answers. So good evening everyone. Today I wanted to talk through four things where we see number one, the markets heading, what gives us a competitive edge, where we acknowledge where we need to do slightly better, the extraordinary opportunities that lie ahead of us and most importantly, the risks which we are actively managing.
Let me set the stage with the macro picture. First financial year for 2026 was undeniably challenging for the Indian equity markets. Investors, both foreign and otherwise ended up withdrawing nearly 15 to 20 billion dollars, but very well mitigated by the amount of domestic flows we saw especially through the mutual fund industry. However, from a very critical angle, India’s domestic fundamentals have remained extremely strong. Our most important, our most important client set, the ultra high net worth individual and the operating businesses continue to do substantially well.
We have responded extremely well and we’ve seen investors diversify and invest over the last 12 months across multiple ISA classes. While we continue to remain relatively sanguine, we believe in a large way the headwinds are largely priced in policy environment, largely supportive. And for long term investors, the markets present one of the most attractive entry points across multiple asset classes, both on the equity side yield plus assets as well as on the private equity side. As a wealth and asset management firm, this is precisely the environment where our advisory capabilities matter most and we are able to make a big difference to being able to give the right side of advice to our clients.
Let me turn across to some of our key strengths. The first and most important strength for us which we feel today is today our brand. We’ve never felt our brand has been stronger before. Over the last 18 to 19 years, since we started our business in 2008, we built ourselves a name that is synonymous with integrity, discretion and long term thinking. And more often than not, saying no for deals as opposed to saying yes. Our clients come to us not just for returns but because they trust us with the fiduciary responsibility and A financial future which is very important for them and across multiple generations.
The brand’s taken decades to build and it compounds over time. And much like the portfolios we manage and we continue to protect our brand with as much zealousness as possible. Secondly, we’ve become the platform where we’re able to attract the best quality people. Eventually our business is a relationship digital business caliber of our teams and sum total of our investment professionals, our wealth management professionals and most importantly our partners finally determine the quality of advice we deliver.
Our relationship managers are not simply salespeople, they’re trusted advisors with deep sectoral knowledge, sophisticated product understanding and genuine client empathy. Equally important are our fund managers and investment professionals who translate market conviction into portfolio math into portfolio performance. Over the last five years we’ve built deep teams which have navigated multiple market cycles and their disciplined research driven approach is a core reason why clients stay with with us through volatility.
Our own understanding is across multiple asset classes largely comes across as a function of US investing and building in the talent base that has combined institutional rigor, entrepreneurial energy as well as top tier investment advisory professionals who are with an intellectual honesty able to think for the long term. Thirdly, we today as an ecosystem are blessed to be the partner of first choice. If you look at large investment firms across the world for their India entry strategies for domestic private equity funds as well as partners who are large operators in India, we are the natural partners to combine with them to be able to do the right set of transactions and provide them the right amount of financial patient capital.
These partnerships give our client access to best in class investment opportunities across multiple asset classes. Our shelf remains curated. It’s not crowded. We always recommend what we believe in. We are never a pure broker. We always always ensure that we are able to get to the client what we really value and advice. The fourth big change is the massive support which has come through the regulatory changes over the last four to five years. We’ve been blessed in a sense where SEBI has made active regulatory changes over the last four to five years both on the alternates industry as well as on the mutual fund industry and the portfolio management services as well as the wealth advisory regulations to enable us to operate in a more transparent and institutionalized market.
Recent changes including the co investment guidelines, accredited investors, introduction of SIFs allows us to play directly to our strengths as well as a compliance first organization. Lastly fifth, rather not lastly fifth I think diversification for us has been superb. We are not a one product firm and most importantly we are not even a one asset class firm. And that has enabled us to write through volatility in a very unique way today. If I reflect and look back at our client portfolios over the last 24 to 36 months, they’ve been steadfast largely because of a diversified allocation of not more than 40 to 50% enlisted equities, nearly 20, 25% allocation to yield assets, nearly 5% allocation to international assets, 5 to 10% to save debt and 10 to 15% to alternates through a combination of real assets, private credit as well as private equity.
This obviously allows a sustained return, allows the client to build a very strong investment policy statement and look at his returns with the least amount of volatility and long amount of compounding. Finally, technology and artificial intelligence for us is a big opportunity. It’s not. It’s not only a. It’s not only something which is a challenge, but also an opportunity because it allows us to make a port, make a, make a firm which is substantially more portfolio analytics driven and build personalized reporting tools that enable our relationship managers to be able to service the client in a faster, more clearer, cleaner manner.
And most importantly, with real time insights on the investment sides, our fund managers can be substantially more productive. They are able to get access to research which is substantially faster. On the operational side. Obviously AI can power our monitoring workflows, document processing and most importantly, freeing up our best people to focus on truly what matters, which is thinking, advice and innovating constantly. These six areas of our brand today give us a lot of confidence not only to consolidate but also to expand and substantially build out our firm for the next six to seven to ten odd years.
Obviously when we look back there are certain areas of improvement and over the next 24 to 36 months we’ll work steadfastly to ensure that we are able to build out and improve on these following areas. I think over the last 24 to 36 months we’ve ended up. We’ve kind of got into three new businesses. I think one is largely the high net worth business which we are building out in a very slow measured manner. I think last year is a good year for our measured success. I think team’s done a phenomenal job in raising close to three, three and a half thousand crores of net flows.
On an average for the year we’ve had only 35, 40 relationship managers. On a closing basis we have 64, 65 relationship managers. It really doesn’t show up in revenue numbers because a large portion of the assets are Mutual funds and the broker code change affects revenue only after 12 months. But the quality of the business and the quantum of the business has made us very, very excited. We continue to grow this in a measured manner. Our tech platform here is extremely, extremely unique. It’s a digital platform.
It is something which is set up to service clients between 2 to 25 crores as opposed to set up clients which are purely online. And we believe we have a good winning combination there. And over the next 12 to 24 months as we build this out, not only will we see assets coming, but we’ll also see the revenue reflecting in our, in our profit and loss account. Secondly, obviously we’ve got a large, we’ve got a large platform build with 361 Capital. We made the acquisition around about nine to 10 months back.
Obviously the, the firm was extremely strong on the equity side and over the next 12 months we will carefully pick up a very, very strong team on the banking side. It’s a business which we are excited about not purely because of the business alone, but largely because the wealth and the asset management business is an automatic feeder into the institutional business. From a relationship perspective, at the end of the day we would love to do business with the 10,000 families who from a, who from a promoter based perspective or professional perspective effectively engage with us, engage with us on all three sides.
Obviously those are the 10,000 families who can potentially give us wealth to manage. Those are the 10,000 families we can provide capital at different phases of time and in different parts of the balance sheet through our fund management side. And eventually Those are the 10,000 families we can hopefully cater and build out the capital markets journey as they start out from small businesses and turn into large businesses. The second area is operational efficiency and productivity. Like pretty much every firm, we’ve grown in a very large way in the last five to six years.
We would need to continue to work hard to ensure that we are not only operationally efficient but we are also extremely productive. I think in some ways it shows up in our cost to income ratios. We still believe even outside the new businesses we built out at a cost to income ratio of 49 to 50%. It’s something which we should be able to get down to 46 to 48%. And over the next two to three years, even though our core wealth and asset management business have remained very, very, very, very rigorously in the region of 44 to 45, we strongly continue to work hard to ensure that our cost to income ratios move towards the 45 to 46 to 47% numbers driven both by leverage and efficiency on the core businesses, as well as improvement in the new businesses.
A critical part of this efficiency agenda is obviously to have discipline on people costs. We managed our people extremely well while at the top end we’ve continued to be at the right, right, right range and more often than not about 90th percentile in terms of compensation. On the hiring side today we need to adjust to ensure that we hire not only the best quality people, but also ensure that the platform is extremely productive where we are to manage the new realities of AI together with the right amount of delivery.
On the talent side, with this I come to the opportunity ahead and this is obviously the most exciting part of our own journey over the next 10 odd years. I think the journey ahead on all three businesses, wealth asset as well as capital markets and also lending, remains superbly exciting. On the wealth management side, we really strongly believe we should be able to get to 12 to 15% of our opening AUM every year as net flows. It’s a tall order, but we continue to work hard. Our brand, our ability to attract the right set of people, grow our relationship managers and team leaders in a very measured manner by 10 to 15% every year, allows us to grow our opening AUM by 12 to 15% every year.
Needless to say, overall, not maybe on a quarterly or yearly basis, mark to market, the 10 to 12% definitely comes in. If I was to look back over the last 15 years and we were just looking at some data, over the last 16 years all our client portfolios have actually grown at 15.4% on a compounded yearly basis over the last 16 years. Hopefully we are able to continue to give a performance, maybe not 15% but in the new world order of some near number between 10 to 14%. But we are very confident that on a rolling basis we will get a mark to market benefit of somewhere between the 10 to 12 to 14%.
And continued with an opening AUM growth of 12 to 14%, we should be able to grow our AUM on the wealth management side by 20 to 25%, grow our relationship managers carefully by 25 to 30% every year over the next three to four years and effectively grow our profits on the wealth management side by 15 to 25%. On the asset management side, needless to say, I think the alternates industry continues to grow in a very, very big way. It’s a business which is allowed us to differentiate, allowed us to innovate, allowed us to take part in assets which are, which are, which, which, which kind of come through in different parts of the balance sheet for the firm, for the, for the client.
We’re able to participate with him in his journey on the equity side, on the fixed income side, sometimes we’re able to do innovative transactions on the, on the, on the yield plus side. And I’m extremely happy to say that, you know, we’ve, if I look at all asset classes today, we’ve really dug deep and we have 15 to 20 investment professionals on each of these strategies which allows us to really respond well in time and allows us to build a very, very fiduciary and a great relationship with clients.
And we’ve been able to. We have one of the few private equity funds which have returned such a lot of money to clients over the last five to six years. We raised a fund which was nearly five and a half 6,000 crores in 2018-19. We returned the entire fund at around 1.82 times and a net return of around about 16% over a short period of 16% compounded over a short period of four to five years. The mutual fund industry continues to do extremely well. Needless to say, it’s a compounding powerhouse. That’s one of the areas where we potentially could do better I think with the introduction of cifs.
I think that’s again something which comes naturally to us. So that’s again something which we are extremely excited about. We would love to do better on the mutual fund side whereas, emphasize and ensure that we have our clear leadership position maintained both on the wealth management side as well as on the, as well as on the alternate side on the capital side. Obviously, you know, needless to say, like every business, the opportunity is tremendous, but we have two opportunities there. The first opportunities is obviously on the equity side and equities for us as a firm for 361 for the wealth management side has not been the strongest vote.
I think we have a lot of opportunity there. I think together with the 361 Capital research team and our own ability to take that equity research to our wealth management clients. That revenue line item for us has been only 85 to 90 crores historically a year. I see that kind of doubling if not tripling over the next three to five years as we add research combined with that, obviously the 361 Capital equities business was substantially well set up. That would also expand and hopefully we can see our equity and equity related income without considering the banking income nearly, you know, double over the next three to four years.
The banking business is something which obviously again is a very, very services business. And to get success in that, apart from relationships and apart from the ability to execute, we also need the best people. We are in no hurry. We will build out a team in a very, very measured manner. We’ve got 12 super investment professionals to hire. We are pleased to announce nearly four out of those 12 are in place. And over the next three to four months you would see us be substantially more competitive in the market with a very strong combination of the right set of product execution capability, the right set of people, and most importantly, the right platform and network to be able to succeed in that business.
On the lending side, we’ve done extremely well. We’ve stuck to our discipline. We’ve got a super team which has been with us and led the business from ground up or since 2016. Fast forward to a decade. Today we’ve been able to run the business without a single rupee of npa, single rupee of loss. We stuck to our core. The business we focused on is largely Lombard lending, largely portfolio lending to our wealth management clients. We’ve not got carried away, we’ve not got tempted and that’s allowed us to sustainably grow that business without, without any accidents and hopefully no accidents to come in the future.
All of this is an opportunity and we’ve really enjoyed our journey for the last 18 years. Having said that, risks are always there and we need to ensure that we continue to manage these risks in an optimal way. First and most important, I think the biggest risk in India, and that’s also the biggest opportunity, is at all points of time, we need to roll up our sleeves and handle execution. And that’s most important, I think as we keep building the team and Today we are 15 to 1800 proud professionals.
We need to ensure that we, at all points of time, 24 by 7, are only doing one thing. Ensuring there is great amount of execution, great amount of attention to detail and ensuring at all points of time the right set of people, including our employers, employee, including our employees, including our clients, are able to get responses in the right, right, right point of time. We’re investing heavily into middle management leadership depth. We are ensuring the organization is professionalized right from the top and ensuring at the very, very end, culture is reflected in everything we do, not only in our product selection, but even in our client service.
For us, all of this is coming together. India is at an inflection point. The macroeconomic foundations are extremely strong. The regulatory environment has been super supportive and, and the addressable market for wealth, asset management alternatives and lending is expanding at a pace never seen before. We are happy to have the right set of brand, the people partners platform and the right levers to get a disproportionate share of this opportunity. We’ve been blessed to be a large participant in the market and have a large percentage of market share and we only hope to be able to double our market share over the next three to five years.
So with this our trajectory is clear and we thank you again for being valuable shareholders and thanks a lot for this call and happy to take questions.
Questions and Answers:
Operator
Thank you Karan. In case you wish any question to ask any questions, request you to kindly tap on the raise hand icon. First in line we have Mohit Mangal. Kindly unmute yourself and ask your question.
Mohit Mangal
Yeah, yeah, thanks for the opportunity and congratulations on a good set of numbers. I got three questions. My first question is on the transactional income. So I think the transaction income if you see it was very strong at 230 odd crores in quarter four and even if I look at the presentation the Uhni TBR was very strong at 177 crores. So just wanted to understand the reasons for the same. And secondly you earlier guided for around 125 to 130 odd crores per quarter is an ideal way to look at tbr.
Do you want to revise that number? That, that’s question number one. Question number two, basically if you look on the flow side I think one of the area of the concern is the discretionary PMS. On the AMC side I think it is getting outsourced, you know, for the last few quarters. So what is our strategy to get back especially on that segment. And lastly I want you to if you can give some guidance on yields x of carry over the next two to three years. Do we kind of bake in some kind of a decline of one or two bids or do you think it will remain stable?
Yeah, those are my three questions.
Karan Bhagat
Thank you. Thank you Mohit. So on the, on the transaction brokerage revenue side I think, I think what’s really helped us across multiple market cycles and I always like to be conservative there because at the end of the day you know those, that’s one part of revenue which is not fully in our control. But I think what has really helped us and you’ve seen a lot of consistency come in largely because of the fact that we are able to kind of play between asset classes. So obviously in one quarter it’s fixed income, the other quarter it’s equity and obviously I think our enhanced kind of effort on improving both our fixed income brokerage as well as equity brokerage is also kind of paying off.
So I think overall I would like to say together with the BNK Capital Acquisition and 361Capital coming into place, it would be safe to say that 125, 130 crores of quarterly TBR now today looks like closer to the 175, 180 crores of TBR for sure. Obviously needless to say we would like to grow this towards the, towards north of the 200 number but as of now if I would feel much more comfortable over 170 180cr number as compared to 130140 crore number in the past. On the discretionary PMS I agree with you.
I think the growth there has been slightly, slightly softer than what we would have wanted. I think that’s kind of little supplemented with the growth on the, on the, on the advisory side. But I think we’re making certain set of, certain set of changes there and I think we need to, I think in retrospect, you know we looked at that strategy in all honesty as a, as a slightly more relative, relative return to the, relative return to the index kind of strategy more core. I think we would need to do slightly more, slightly more active work there to kind of grow the aum.
So I think little bit of changes on the discretionary side. I think clients who’ve kind of looked upon that giving us a very custom built mandate have done extremely well and they’ve continued to add AUM because they’ve kind of got the best out of our best of our advice. But where we’ve tried to do very, very benchmark hugging portfolios on the discretionary PMS side that maybe is not really kind of worked out in the same way but I think we, we kind of have pivoted a strategy a bit. We launch it somewhere in the first week of June.
So I, I do expect those numbers to kind of move up a bit on the, on the third. Sorry, I just slipped the third question. Yeah, so yields are not too worried about. I think our, our accounting policy on carries quite, quite, quite conservative. I think what, what really helps us there is we’ve got it both time weighted return weighted as well as hurdle guarded. So in some senses, you know every quarter, every half year there is, there might be a little bit of variation quarterly but yearly I think it’s safe to assume around about 10 to 14 basis points of our carriable AUM kind of gets accrued every year.
Our carryable AUM of the overall alternates business would be around about 70, 75%. So today give or take around about 30, 35,000 crores would be broadly carryable. So of that roundabout I would say give or take, you know in a bad year 5 to 7 basis points and in a very good year 12 to 15 basis points of carry is potentially going to accrue. So if you ask me today on the south side around about 150, 175 crores and on the north side around about 300, 325 crores of carry is something which can kind of come in so roundabout.
From a modeling perspective I would say approximately 10 basis points is the right number to look at. And obviously you’ve got around about 85, 90 basis points coming out of the management fees on the alternates business. So around 195200 basis points on alternates is the yield I would look at.
Mohit Mangal
Understood. Thanks and wish you all the best for financial. Thank
Karan Bhagat
You. Thank you Mohit.
Operator
Thank you. Next in line we have Praise Jain Praise. Kindly unmute and ask your question.
Praise Jain
Hey. Hi. Hi. Hi Karan, just a few questions. Firstly I’m just trying to read your outlook statement where you mentioned that your AUM growth will be about 20, 25% and RM addition if I got it right would be 20, 25% per and you mentioned about pat or profit growth to be like 15 to 25%. Just trying to read between the lines there. Whether are we seeing, are you talking about cost to income to be slightly on the higher side because of the hiring and that’s kind of going to put some pressure on your profit growth related to the, you know, AUM or the or yield compression or whichever way you, you want to talk about it.
That’s one second is you know, when you talk about transactional revenues, BNK obviously will have the challenge of the yields compression that we will get it from get from the mutual fund companies from the 1st of April. And in spite of that would you still kind of stick to your guidance of about 175 to 200 crore kind of quarterly run rate. And third is how do you see the overall cost to income scenario for the company given the competitive environment, particularly on the RM hiring front? Yeah, those would be my questions.
Thanks.
Karan Bhagat
Thank you. So I think all three fair questions and I think obviously all three, all three are challenges we live on from a day to day basis but to kind of just balance things out, I think it’s fair to say that, you know, I think from a yield perspective, you know, things are broadly in line. I’m not really kind of too worried about the yields. There will always be certain degree of, a certain degree of pressure. Similarly on the relationship manager compensation side, ability to recruit people, invest in new businesses, I think they are all, they’re all kind of phases in some ways.
I think if I just look at the metrics standalone and you know we do this all the time. I think if you very strongly look at the ultra high net worth business and the asset management business and you kind of look at, look at it X of the three, three kind of acquisitions we did last year. So if I kind of exclude, exclude 361 Capital which was earlier BNK Capital, exclude ET Money and exclude the UBS transaction both in terms of the flows, the money which came in and the money which gave out. I think on the core, on the core business, which is the alternate asset management business as well as the wealth management business, I think we’ve done really well.
I think our cost income really remains in the region of the zip code of 44, 45, 46% which I think is a superb, a superb number. And I think as we’ve seen a little bit of churn of teams as well as additional new teams and there’s a passage of time where the older teams have become more productive and the newer teams are kind of getting to be productive. I think that model for us is very well solved. So I think our ability to get operating leverage there is fairly high. In fact, if you ask me today, I think it’s a great opportunity to double down on our brand and attract the right set of health managers to our platform.
I am the industry in the phase of consolidation and we are honestly not scared to kind of attract the right set of people and maybe take a call on building out another 25, 34, 35 relationship managers this year itself and front ending the growth a little bit. So on the wealth management side, very, very confident on our operating model and I think compared to any other model in the, in the country, I think we’ll be able to plug in these relationship managers, the senior relationship managers into a system like ours substantially faster.
So honestly I think outside of normal execution challenges on a business model perspective, I think I’m fairly confident on the ultra high net worth side. On the capital side, obviously I think on an average the BNK business was operating in the zip code of the 5 to 6 basis points retention. So while there is a little Bit of an impact. It’s not, it’s not an impact which is very large for us to kind of dramatically change our, dramatically change our quarterly numbers. I think it changes by around about 2 to 3% on a broad base of around about 200, 225 crores.
It’s just not, it’s not, it’s not really relevant in that sense. And I think there are some bit of synergy benefits even to the institutional business which come from, which come from us kind of coming together which more than offsets that offset, offsets that change on the equity side. You know as I said earlier my confidence really in the TBR comes from, from the ability for us to kind of increase our own equities brokerage from our ultra high net worth clients. And the 175 to 200 crore number is not something which is like cast in stone immediately but I think to a number which was 125 to 140 comparable earlier I think the 160 to 180 seems, seems better right now.
And lastly I think from a relationship manager perspective I think the war for talent is always there but I think we are always, we’re always going to be between the 90th to the 110th percentile. I think depending on the talent once it crosses 110th percentile it becomes tough for even for us to kind of manage. And I think there are enough very, very smart relationship managers there and they are very, very entrepreneurial. They know how to build their business and they know it’s a function of not only 110% compensation but it’s a function of the platform and eventually what they are able to do right by the clients, build their business in efficient manner and at the same point while delivering the best for the clients earn the maximum amount of compensation.
So I think that’s, that’s really where it is. So honestly you know I, I agree with you on all the three points but there are execution challenges which, which, which allow us to kind of grow faster than the industry.
Praise Jain
Got that? Thank you.
Operator
Thank you Praish. Next in line we have Abhijit Sakari. Abhijit, kindly unmute yourself and ask your question.
Abhijit Sakari
Hi, good evening everyone. Thanks Karan for the detailed opening remarks. Very useful. So I had an industry question Karan. So the overall outlook on the ultra Hni business seems like extremely positive from a three to five year time frame. So I’m just trying to tie in a few statements. One is that whether the industry you believe will remain in a consolidation mode over the next few years. And secondly, like one would assume that for an industry such a nice good growth potential, one would kind of assume that it would tend to get more competitive.
Right. I think in the past you said that the ultra HNI space clearly has, you know, place for one or two more players right beyond the top. So I’m just trying to kind of connect the dots here to kind of get a perspective on how you’re thinking about the growth here. And the 12 to 15% opening AUM number that you mentioned, do you believe it has certain risks of, you know, once in a while you have these situations where you know, like one off attrition or a large attrition which tends to kind of throw off the numbers a little bit.
Given that the state of the industry still seems quite strong. Right. In terms of growth outlook.
Karan Bhagat
No Abhijit, great question. So I think to me honestly I think the 12 to 15% seems doable. I think it’s something which obviously as the size increases it becomes a bigger challenge. But I think honestly we’re in early days and our own assessment of our market share is somewhere between the 8, 10 to to 10% number. I honestly we’re not able to estimate it to the full best possibility but I think we would be in the 8 to 10%. When we look at our 4 and a half thousand odd families above 10 crores with us, I personally feel we have the ability to increase that to 8 to 10,000 families which gets us closer to the 12 to 15% market share.
And I think if you move towards the 8 to 10,000 families on a bottom up basis, I think that 12 to 15% AUM kind of comes through. Do we have the, the middle to the top management layer on management side to attract these relationship managers? I think the answer is yes. And that kind of leads me into one aspect of the question which you were asking. Whether you know, how consolidated does the, does the industry stay? I think that’s a real, real, real great question. And honestly I think it’s fair to say that the size of the industry does require at least three, four, you know, potentially can have three, four more larger players.
Having said that, I think obviously it’s in like in most industries, you know, size, bigger size. So I think in some ways, in some ways, you know, it will, it will require, it will require somebody to kind of, you know, with have a strong commercial mindset, put in a large amount of capital as well as potentially kind of attract the right set of people to be able to, to be able to kind of build it out quicker. I personally am actually a little surprised and you know, honestly positively surprised.
I think the industry continues to remain fairly consolidated. I think it stays this way over the next three to four years. Will there be a couple of more players? I’m sure there will be, but I think our own, our own in terms of comfort, brand ability to attract people never felt more comfortable. And I think that, that gives us a, that gives us a fairly good position. And I think, I think overall a tighter market helps us consolidate faster. And I think while, while I hear you on the, on the, on the attrition point, I think that continues to be a risk.
But honestly I think we’ve, we’ve, with God’s grace, we built a lot of, we build a very diversified business and you know, our team, if you see today, also continues to, you know, I think more than 60, 65% of our team would have spent more than eight, nine years with us. So I think in general it’s a platform where people like to work, people like to invest their time, people like to learn. And I think we balance our time very well between learning and ensuring that we’re able to give the right value to our clients.
And if I was to look back at the last six months, or rather last April to now, and if there’s one thing I would say is our biggest achievement for the last 12 months is the kind of talent we were attracted on the wealth management side, both in markets like Delhi, Bangalore, where we had some attrition as well as in Bombay. I think we’ve attracted some super relationship managers in all the three. In all the three. In all the 3 places. And that’s really kind of made us much more resilient than ever before and similarly on the investment side.
So I feel quite confident. And while obviously we don’t want attrition by any margin, I think we have to be prepared for 2 to 4% attrition every year.
Abhijit Sakari
Thanks Karan. Just one more question. I think in the past you mentioned that typically in a given year almost 50% of flows come from new client additions. So I just wanted to understand like in a period where like the RM competition intensity is very strong, how does that kind of play out with respect to your market share between flows from existing clients versus new clients?
Karan Bhagat
It’s a challenge always. But to be honest, I think we’ve been beneficiaries, I would say net addition to high quality relationship managers for us has been a positive. So I’m honestly not complaining in that sense. But it’s obviously a risk. Okay. I think it’s, it’s eventually last mile business. So our ability to attract the right set of talent and ensure that we, you know, it’s, it’s, I would say it has to, it has to follow an order. Right. So if you need 10,000 families, we need 280, 300 super bankers.
All bankers at any point of time won’t have 35 relationships. So you know, some of them would not be phenomenally productive. So maybe average will be closer to 30. So at north you need 325, 330 super bankers. Is it easy to go from 180 to 100 senior bankers to 330? The answer is no. But if there is any platform which can do that and attract those right set of people, it’s, it’s really us. And honestly I think, I think we see that, we see that w do that in the next 12 to 18 months. And like I said earlier, I think our own business model, understanding of the business on the ultra high net worth side, we feel very confident to be able to move from that 200 to 300 number because we’ve got operating efficiencies of scale.
And I think there will be some challenges along the way. There will be some attrition, some competition, some outsized compensation. But honestly I think as long as we stay our path, keep our heads down, I think we can move from the 200 to 300, 325 bankers.
Operator
Thanks a lot Karan.
Karan Bhagat
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Next in line we have Gaurav Jain. Gaurav, kindly unmute yourself and ask your question.
Gaurav Jain
Hi, thanks for the opportunity and congratulations on steady set of numbers. Just two data keeping kind of questions from my side. One is, I’m not sure if you have already said but what is this delta in TBR that we basically saw in 2 code? If you can help us understand which particular set or line item helped in this quarter, that will be helpful. And second is since it is first year of completion of BNK post acquisition, not full completion but major completion. So key headline numbers of BNK say operating revenue, other income and pack, that will be really helpful.
Karan Bhagat
Got it. So I’ll kind of give you some broad numbers. I’ll start with the second and then come back to your, come back to your first question. So broadly I think BNK numbers have been very, very steady for, for the last, for the last 10 months as compared to the year previous to that. I think broadly speaking we had a 230 to 250 crore top line, 220 to 250 crore top line. In the year previous we’ve been broadly around that range in fact added around about 6 to 7% largely driven by early integration on the corporate treasury platform where some of our large wealth management clients with large corporate treasuries have kind of got introduced to the BNK platform and slight market share gain on the, on the equity side from a PBT perspective also pretty much in line BNK had a PBT at the point of acquisition of approximately 105 crores.
This year we’ll finish in the region ballpark region of 105 to 110 crores before any specific acquisition related costs. So overall I think those are the, those are the broad numbers on the BNK side. So largely, largely steady year, potentially an increase of 3 to 4% on, on, on the overall business but we need to remember you know our approvals and so on and so forth for BNK Capital to become 361Capital as well as common research and stuff like that’s happened only maybe in the last 15 to 30 days.
So it’s really integration would kind of hopefully all benefits start coming in soon enough. Obviously teams culture, all is integrated but just ensuring that businesses can also kind of get integrated as fast as possible. On the, on the first, on the first point. Sorry I forgot the. It
Gaurav Jain
Was on tbr.
Karan Bhagat
No no sorry it was your advisory. What are the heads? So on largely on the advisory I think on the net flows approximately 9 to 10,000 crores. On net flows it’s a mix largely of advisory a little bit in product distribution and largely in on the asset management side. So asset management side is, is is around about two two and a half thousand crores advisories in the region ballpark of four and a half four four and a half thousand or five thousand crores and the net amount coming from distribution assets would be the balancing amount of two two and a half thousand crores including the lending book.
So that’s the broad split of nine and a half thousand crores on the TBR on the delta versus quarter three it’s largely as I said earlier, it’s a mix of asset classes. So I think what we’ve done extremely well on on Q4 in terms of equity in terms of asset classes has been a combination of fixed income, some bit of REITs and INVITs and potentially a couple of transactions on the, on the high yielding fixed income side.
Gaurav Jain
Okay, just one last question K. We saw some brokers taking some stress on the MTF book. Given the volatility in Q4, was there any stress or anything that you saw in your lending book where you were uncomfortable or was it everything under control in spite of the volatility in bullion and equity?
Karan Bhagat
So we don’t have any margin funding book yet. So our margin funding books less than 50, 60 crores I think. So we really don’t have a margin funding book because as a broker we really don’t do MTF on our lending book which is largely a loan against shares book which is collateralized at at two times typically on a diversified portfolio. We’ve not fortunately we’ve not seen any stress at all.
Gaurav Jain
Yeah, thanks.
Karan Bhagat
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Next in line we have the Punjan Ghosh. The Punjan kindly unmute and ask your question.
Punjan Ghosh
Hey Karan, good evening. So a few questions from my side. First you know, in terms of the incremental clients that, that you are onboarding on the platform and versus let’s say what you are onboarding five to six years back, you know some color on differences in quality of the customer ticket size whether these are individuals or family offices. I mean has there been any change in this mix and, and in this context, I mean do you see any differentiation that you need to create on either servicing odd products or maybe is there a wallet share division which is far higher in these new customers versus let’s say the old style customers.
Some color on the customer quality would be helpful. The second question is you know you, you kind of kind of articulated on the carry income map in one of the previous participants questions if you can kind of kind of give some color on the funds that are in the pipeline for exit for the next two to three years and whether you are comfortably over the hurdle expectations in those funds and you know if you can just walk through the math in a little bit detail, I mean that will be really helpful because we don’t get access to some of these on the public domain.
And third would be a data keeping question. You know, in terms of your ARR assets if you can kind of split the graph flows for the quarter and full year
Karan Bhagat
So it gross flows for the,
Unidentified Participant
For the ARR active ARR assets in the wealth segment
Punjan Ghosh
And also on the AMC basically the gross sales process because we get the net flow, net new money number. So
Karan Bhagat
Got it. I okay, so that I’ll have to just depend on Sanjay or Anshan for so I’ll just for the gross flows numbers. But I can answer the first two questions by the time they can look at the gross FS numbers. But obviously on the mutual fund side, looking at the gross flows won’t help because we’ll have liquid funds and debt funds and stuff like that. But on the alternate side, I think the gross flows will definitely help. So Sanjay, maybe you can just pull it out on the order on the incremental client on platform quality of clients.
Obviously I think it’s a great question. I think the type of clients have become much more broader and the depth has also increased. Today there’s obviously a, I won’t call it a new kind of client, but a much more sophisticated family office. It would be safe to say there are 300, 350 such family office offices across the country who are substantially more sophisticated, who are able to take decisions faster, were able to cut much larger checks and most importantly are willing to participate with us pretty much as partners across the entire, across the entire platform rather than just coming in, rather than just kind of allocating us 100 rupees and say kind of just manage it on a portfolio advisory basis.
So that class of clients maybe would have been, would it be maybe 40, 50, maybe five years back? Today definitely that number is close to 400 to 500 odd. 400 to 500 clients. Outside of that, I think generally speaking our client base has become slightly on the ultra analysis, become slightly larger in terms of average aum and that’s largely a function of the fact that it’s a portfolio based approach as opposed to a product based approach. So most of our relationship managers by onboarding the clients would talk about asset allocation, product selection, not ensuring more than 25% on a single product, not ensuring more than 15% in a single asset manager.
So it’s a much more richer discussion on the portfolio as opposed to the product. And that obviously kind of moves the minimums up slightly more. So from a client segmentation perspective, I think a portfolio based approach as opposed to a product based approach is leading to a slightly higher ticket ticket size. And third, I think there’s a much more diversity of clients from a background and geography perspective. I think geography is obviously substantially more diverse as compared to the first six, seven cities.
And background also is much more diverse. I think it’s now fair to say professionals and professional entrepreneurs are nearly 15 to 20% of the of the client base and the same number used to be 5 to 10%. And you know, in that sense, I think, you know, whether you look at companies which have been started by professionals and professionals anywhere number between 2 and a half to 10% plus corporate lawyers plus movie stars and Bollywood professionals as well as sports people. So overall I think the client and even doctors, I think overall the length and breadth of professionalism, increased diversification and geographies, family offices are deep.
And obviously I think what we need to work on, again, maybe one of our weaker areas, but we need to work hard on getting more participation from domestic institutions and insurance companies which have become, which have become key contributors to alternative investment funds. Second, obviously, I think on the ARR assets. Have you got the numbers, Sanjay? Broadly,
Sanjay Wadwa
Yeah. For AMC, the gross flow for the quarter is around 5,200 and for the full year it is 19,000. Yeah, so we
Karan Bhagat
Had actually, yeah, so we had a great quarter. On the asset management side in terms of flows, it’s nearly 5200 crores. But we’ve also had three funds on the, on the, on the one, one large fund on the credit side which, which came up for maturity which was nearly 15, 1700 crores. One of our real estate funds came up for maturity which was 850 odd crores. And I think we had a distribution from one of our private equity funds with a 2021 vintage. So that basically resulted in a net outflow of around about 25002600 crores which has resulted in the 5300 crores coming down to the 23002400 crore number.
Punjan Ghosh
Maybe on the carry bit if you can. Yeah, sorry,
Karan Bhagat
On the carry basically, I think so I think I’ll give the operating principles and I’ll leave it to Sanjay to figure out how to maybe potentially, you know, give a list of funds and AUM date of maturity, because it’s all there in the public domain, maybe we can just compile it and put it in the data book as one Excel document. But at an operating philosophy level, obviously I think we want to, in a very conservative and simple way to explain it. We typically start looking at carry only once the fund has met the hurdle for the entire life of the fund.
Okay. That’s really when the carry kind of starts kicking in. So it’s a five year fund or a six year fund. It effectively has to beat the carry for the entire time period and only then does the fund become carryable in incident anyway. And once the fund becomes carriable, obviously we take a slight bit of a discount in terms of market values and stuff like that and then start accounting for it. So at the simplest level, it’s not as if we are measuring the fund after one year and it has to meet the hurdle after one year and Then we start accounting for carry.
It has to meet the hurdle for the entire lifetime of the fund and only then it kind of comes into carry. So I would say outside of large market variations, the carry which we are carrying is quite, quite conservative and within, within range in terms of an overall fund list and broad maturity dates and so on and so forth. And maybe just a num, just a comment whether the fund is a carry fund or a fixed fee fund. Maybe Sanjay can put it up on Excel.
Unidentified Participant
Sure. Karan, if I can just chip in one small question on the UBS fit where you gave some color, you know, in terms of referrals, how has been the traction any initial data point and also your product on UBS AMC’s platform as a newer AMC product on their platform. When can we expect some things on those lines? That’s all. So I think, I
Karan Bhagat
Think to be honest, that’s been slightly slower. It’s more. More. Not, not from a, not from a desire to do it. I think both of us want to do it as fast as possible. I think just from a regulatory approval process both in gift and as well as as on the UBS platform. I think it’s taken slightly longer, but hopefully we’ll see it happen over the next quarter or so. There.
Unidentified Participant
Got it. Thank you all the.
Operator
Thank
Karan Bhagat
You. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Next in line, in the interest of time, request you to kindly restrict yourself to not more than two questions. Next in line we have Siddhar. Siddharth, kindly unmute yourself and ask your question.
Gaurav Jain
Hi, thanks for the opportunity. Few questions from my end. On a quarter on quarter basis. We’ve seen netflow sort of coming down which.