360 One Wam Ltd (NSE: 360ONE) Q4 2025 Earnings Call dated Apr. 23, 2025
Corporate Participants:
Sanjay Wadhwa — Chief Financial Officer
Anshuman Maheshwary — Chief Operating Officer
Karan Bhagat — Founder, Managing Director and Chief Executive Officer
Yatin Shah — Chief Executive Officer, 360 One Wealth
Analysts:
Unidentified Participant
Mohit Mangal — Analyst
Prayesh Jain — Analyst
Nitesh Jain — Analyst
Sanket Godha — Analyst
Dipanjan Ghosh — Analyst
Akash Vora — Analyst
Presentation:
Operator
Good evening ladies and gentlemen and welcome to 361 Wamps Q4 and FY25 earnings call. As a reminder, all participant lines will be in listen only mode. There will be an opportunity for you to ask questions after the management shares their thoughts. Should you require assistance during the conference, kindly signal the host by tapping on the raise hand icon. Please note this conference is being recorded on the call today we have with us Mr. Karan Bhagat, M.D. cEO, Mr. Yatin Shah, CEO 361 Wealth, Mr. Anshuman Maheshwari, Chief Operating Officer and Mr. Sanjay Wadhwa, Chief Financial Officer. I now hand it over to Sanjay to take this conference ahead.
Sanjay Wadhwa — Chief Financial Officer
Thank you Anil and a very good evening to everyone on the call today. Amidst the volatile capital market, particularly in the second half of the year, the growth in our client base continued to be very healthy. For this year we have onmoded over 440 new clients with 10 crores plus wealth ARR AUM. Presently we have 3300 plus clients with total AUM of 10 crores plus who account for 95% of wealth AUM excluding custody. Before we deep dive into financials, we would like to highlight that the board has approved FY26 first interim dividend of rupees six per share coming to the business and financial numbers in line with our focus on ARR assets, total ARR AUM increased to 2.46828 crores up 23% year on year. This growth was largely driven by strong net flows at 25,974 crores during the year and as against 16,136 in FY24. For the full year wealth ARR net flows stood at 22,334 crores up 42% year on year while AMC gross flows were at 16,300 crores. AMC AUM saw a marginal reduction on a QOQ basis due to negative mtm. The impact was lesser than the broader market correction as a diversified asset base and strong gross flows were able to offset the decline. Our ARR revenues for the full year grew by 28.2% YoY at 1701 crores led by strong growth in assets across business segments. Our ARR revenue as a percentage of total revenues from operations stood at 70%. Total revenues are up 35%. YOY at 2,652 crores for FY25 also supported the by higher other income. Total costs are up 27.3% YoY at Rupees 1,218 crores in FY25. In line with our previous comments, the cost to income ratio improved to 45.9% as compared to 48.7% in FY24. We expect gradual improvement in this metric over the coming quarters as the new business initiatives and teams become more productive. We are happy to report that the company recorded its highest ever annual PAT at Rupees 1000 and 15 crores, an increase of 26.6% year on year. Tangible ROE is at 24.3% in FY25 vis a vis 30.1% in FY24. The ratio is expected to improve in the coming quarters as the investments made in our lending and alternate businesses in FY25 begin to reflect in the earning profile. With that, I would like to hand over to Anshuman to cover key business and strategic highlights.
Anshuman Maheshwary — Chief Operating Officer
Thanks Sanjay and good evening everyone. At the outset we are happy to report that the company’s performance has successfully demonstrated our core tenets of growth, resiliency and agility in a challenging and volatile FY25 business. Years like FY25, which are a unique combination of market highs and sharp corrections amid geopolitical uncertainty. Not only test businesses, but also help in strengthening our belief in the fundamentals of the business of wealth and asset management. For us, it has further. Reinforced our confidence in the disciplined approach towards client assets and the resilience of our recurring business model. The year also marks several milestones for 361 as we complete our 17th year of operations. As a firm, we have always believed in defining sharp strategic focus areas, creating deep competitive modes and giving disproportionate attention to execution. A culture of constant innovation and high performance encouraged us to take timely decisions on matters of team building, capital allocation and investment in platform and technology. Today we are even better positioned to sustain the growth trends while scaling up to meet the requirements of varied client segments and drive new business engines. With that, I would like to share details regarding our recent strategic exclusive collaboration with with UBS ag, one of the world’s leading wealth managers. This collaboration brings together two visionary firms, powerhouses in the space of wealth management to create a platform that is truly without parallel. This exclusivity is guided by shared belief in values, ambition and a client first philosophy. This historic collaboration has three interrelated components ie business collaboration across geographies and business segments, UBS AG stake in 361 and integration of UBS India’s wealth management business with 361 WAM. Starting with the first 361 WAM and UBS AG have entered into an exclusive strategic collaboration where clients from both institutions will have access to their onshore and offshore wealth management solutions. Additionally, opportunities for deep cooperation in the segments of asset management and capital markets will also be tapped into and to ensure a sharp focus on execution and the realization of the strategic opportunities, a joint apex committee with senior leadership from Both UBS and 361 has been formed. Secondly, UBS AG will subscribe to warrants representing a stake of 4.95% in 361 WAM at a price of Rupees 1030 per warrant, a premium of about 14% to the three day VWAP as on the relevant date. This equity stake is an indication of UBS’s commitment interest trust not only in 361’s core tenets but also in the India growth story. We will also integrate UBS AG’s India wealth management business into 361 wealth along with their highly capable bankers and other team members and a trusted legacy of excellence. The business include distribution and broking, discretionary and non discretionary portfolio management as well as lending services, very special. Similar to what we do today at 361 Wan, this business transfer adds approximately 26,000 crores of active AUM and recurring non lending revenues of 45 to 50 crores and will have a similar cost to income as our current wealth business. The net consideration being paid for this business transfer is rupees 307 crores. This collaboration is expected to unveil newer opportunities for our teams as well as clients. UBS AG’s global investment expertise, research and access will improve our ability to serve the cross border needs of our clients and enhance our wealth management proposition significantly. Along with the recent BNK securities acquisition, we are now even better positioned to grow our presence across broking, equity capital markets, merchant banking and the corporate Treasury SO space while fortifying our lead position in wealth and alternate asset management. As an update on bnk, the regulatory approvals are underway and we hope to complete the transaction within this quarter. Specifically, the BNK business performance remains strong over the last quarter with operating revenues at about 65 to 70 crores and continued PAT of approximately 25 crores bringing the full year PAT to rupees 102 crores for BNK. We are also happy to announce that all requisite approvals regarding the ET Money acquisition were received in quarter four and the firm formally has become part of 361WAP. In our journey over the last 17 years towards becoming a full stack financial services player around segments of wealth management, public markets including mutual funds, alternates, global business and capital markets, we have remained consistently focused on serving the client needs in the most comprehensive manner possible. Within wealth, the focus remains on serving the uhni, HNI and retail affluence. With an advisory mindset, equity broking and investment banking would be key drivers for the capital market segment. Over the last few years we have been consolidating in a steadfast manner across business line and in the future we aim to retain our leadership position in both wealth management and the alternate space while making significant strides in the global and capital markets segment. I would take this opportunity to thank all our partners and stakeholders who have bestowed trust and confidence in us through our journey. With that I would like to hand over to Karan and Yatin for the question answers.
Questions and Answers:
Operator
Thank you. Thank you Anshuman. The floor is now open. As a reminder you may tap on the raise hand icon to ask your questions first. Online we have Praish Jain. Praish, kindly unmute yourself and ask your question.
Unidentified Participant
Hi Karan, Congrats on the.
Unidentified Participant
A very good set of numbers as well as the transaction at ubs. Firstly, you know, just on this UBS transaction, could you elaborate on, you know, what do you mean by exclusive arrangement? You know, whether. So when the domestic clients of yours get access to UBS Global, do you mean only UBS Global assets would be given to domestic clients or what, what do you mean by an exclusive arrangement, both sides? That would be my first question.
Karan Bhagat
No, I think. Thank you, thank you, thank you for the compliments. I think to answer your question on the UBS side, I think what an exclusive arrangement largely implies is if we open for the clients LRS money which, where the clients look at onboarding a global bank account, UBS will be our exclusive partner. And also obviously, needless to say, in case we end up opening an external asset manager platform for our clients overseas, we would be using the services of UBS also. In addition, on the asset management side, it’s not necessary that all our gift city feeders and so on and so forth need to be only with UBS Asset management. As an asset manager we will work on an open architecture basis.
So as a wealth management client in India, we will obviously get them the best open architecture asset management products available across the globe. Needless to say, UBS also runs a lot of good, good products on the asset management side and some really nice exclusive ones. We will get our clients access to those also. And specifically, you know, like we run discretionary mandates in India, UBS also runs global discretionary mandate. So we can get access to that also for our clients on the other side for ubs, you know, all, all their, all their referrals back into India for all the global NRI clients and clients who can potentially open NRE NRI NRO accounts into India would exclusively be referred to, would be exclusively referred to us. And while there is no specific tie up on the asset management distribution, needless to say, basis, basis, basis performance, basis credibility and diligence, you know, hopefully we can, we can penetrate some of our own asset management products in the, in the UBS we should space.
Unidentified Participant
Got that. So, you know, just an extension to that question. You know, there’s a 5%, almost a 5% dilution in, in the equity. What against that, what could be the big revenue opportunity or you know, from, from this collaboration per se. Let’s leave aside the 26,000 crore AUM that you are getting and with for which you are paying a separate cash consideration just from this collaboration, what could be the revenue opportunity that could accrue over the next.
Unidentified Participant
Two to three years from this.
Karan Bhagat
I think revenue, I think it’s, it’s. I wouldn’t say the revenue contribution has a one on one match with the, with the 2000 crores we are raising. I think there are a lot of potential synergies on the revenue side, some of which I kind of described. But I think there are three or four large synergies on the revenue side. One obviously is the inbound referrals, one is the outbound access to two products. Third is the ability to capture our, our clients, you know, dollar portfolio or wallet share. And fourth obviously is our own ability to kind of distribute our asset management products better. So I think these four, three or four potential revenue opportunities exist. That necessarily doesn’t have anything to do with the quantum of capital we are raising to, to, to, to, to. To give ubs AG a 4.95% stake. I think the opportunity is fairly large.
I think it’s too early for me to kind of quantify each of these in these four verticals. You know it’s, we are kind of, we know, we know for a fact that from a culture perspective, from an understanding perspective and most importantly from a client wallet share and platform perspective, it’s extremely synergistic. Exactly what kind of in rupee terms what kind of revenue it would be add is I think slightly earlier to, slightly earlier to kind of describe. Having said that I think you know the, the primary use of capital for the, for the, for the amount of money we would end up raising is going to be a combination of three or four things. Needless to say I think the, the, the out of the 2000 odd crores will end up, you know though the 300 crores won’t go as a part of that 2000 crores but obviously I think on an Overall pool basis 300, 350 crores will get utilized for that. I think we obviously acquired BNK capital.
We’ll end up using 250, 300 crores of increment there. The NBFC book is continue to see some good growth. We’ll add around about 8900 there crores there on the, out of the 2,000 and the last 4,500crores would kind of largely get used in the potentially as overall kind of addition to the alternates business. So overall I think, you know, I think the growth in revenue between, between from a collaboration perspective versus raising of capital are not exactly running parallel with each other but both have, both, both have their own unique reasons to do so.
Unidentified Participant
Got that Just a book pink question you mentioned. I think Anshuman mentioned that against 26, 000 crore AUM, you just have about 50 crore revenue which is a very low yield as compared to what you are making. And against that you’re saying that the cost to income is similar to what you are doing. So I’m just trying to build a math out there. It looks very absurd at such a.
Unidentified Participant
Low realization you would have the same cost to income. And why such low realizations?
Karan Bhagat
No, so I think two, three things there. I think the realization obviously is around about 70, 75 crores of revenue. Slightly higher. You know the realization we’ve considered 50, 55 crores is obviously you know there are certain elements of revenue which would, which would not accrue on our, on our platform. And obviously from a, from a, from a, from a transfer of business perspective it is only you know, relevant parts of the business which are transferred. It’s not as if the entire business or the entire, not all the people are transferred. Only, only part of the people are transferred.
So the relevant cost, you know, and obviously you have to adjust for a lot of the operating function costs which don’t need to be transferred. So you know the, the part of the wealth business which is getting kind of transferred to us both from a revenue and cost perspective is largely representative of 50, 55 crores of income and a very, very similar cost to income. I think the cost to income the, the per PB the region of 20, 25 crores PAT would be in the region of 10 to 15 crores which is largely resulting in that value of 300 odd crores.
Unidentified Participant
Got that? I’ll come back in the queue for more questions.
Operator
Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Request you to restrict yourself to two questions.You could combine your questions and ask them and we’ll come back in case we have more time. Next online we have Mohit Mangal. Request you to unmute yourself and ask your question.
Mohit Mangal
Yeah, hi. Thanks for taking my question. And first of all congratulations Karan for being re elected as MD for the next five years. Yeah, so, so coming to this UBS acquisition, you know I’m a little curious about this 26000 odd crores. If you can just break into ARR and non ARR aum and you know, I mean if I look at last two, three years how it, how the growth has been, say, say for this UBS business
Karan Bhagat
I think you know on, out of the 26000 crores, I think the ARR revenues, I, I remember the ARR revenue number. I don’t remember the exact ARR number but I think it’ll be more or less reflective. But I think it’s 70 kind of number or 25, 75 kind of number. But let’s not forget, I think you know the focus really is on the fact that you know it. These are really, really good relationship managers. It’s a great platform. They’re really 12 super senior guys. And it’s, it’s. I would be highly surprised if the yield of these assets continue to remain the same in our platform. I would be, I would, I would like to believe, you know, if our, if our normalized deals are in the region of 75 to 80 BAS points, somewhere between the existing yield of 25, 30 basis points to 80 basis points, we’ll definitely be able to move these assets, whether we are able to move the entire 26,000 crores into active assets. So maybe 60, 70% of that is something which time will tell and obviously is a function of many things, on how well we integrate and so on and so forth. But I would expect. At least, at least 60% of these assets to become yielding in a very, very similar format to what we have. So effectively if I look at our yields today, we would have around about 75, 80 basis points on the ARR side and around about 30 odd basis points, 35 basis points on the TBR side. I think I would expect this AUM base to settle somewhere around 30, 40% on the ARR side and 60% on the, on the, on the transaction side. So effectively leaving us with a, with a blended yield of around about give or take 50, 55 basis points.
Mohit Mangal
Understood. No, no, no, just continuing, you know, I mean say last few years we have done a few acquisitions like I mean I remember LNT Finance we had done, we had added around 20, 30 to 35 RMS here. You know, what’s the max basically in terms of RM addition and other things? I mean if you can just elaborate on that
Karan Bhagat
For RMs, the exact RM count, you know, across, across different kind of vintages and so on and so forth. We have 10 senior RMS within the UBS system and you know, maybe add couple of three or four junior RM. So 13 to 14 RMs in that sense and another similar number of people on the, on the service analyst and you know, RM facing side. So around about 30 odd people on the RM facing side and another 10 to 15 people on the, on the, of the business.
Mohit Mangal
Understood. My last question is on the flows. I think, you know, in the wealth management space in Q4 we had a kind of a muted quarter. So just wanted to know the reason for that and how do we see financial year 26 in terms of net flows?
Karan Bhagat
I think overall, you know, I think the wealth management business over the last 90 or maybe last 120 odd days, I think overall gross flows have been okay. I think net flows numbers have also been quite decent. I think we lost, we lost, we lost around about eight to 10 people across the country over the last, over the last four or five months in terms of senior folks. And that led to approximately a net outflow of around about 2320400 odd crores across the system over the last four to five months on the ARR A side. So I think to a certain extent the net flows are slightly dampened for the two and a half thousand crores of net outflows from the system. But overall I think, you know, from just transaction activity, there was a patch of maybe 15 days to a month in the quarter where activity levels were slightly lower.
Obviously it affected us lesser because we were able to kind of offset it with a lot of, a lot of fair degree of activity on the fixed income side, as well as a few real estate transactions. So I think overall TBR kind of continued in a tight range. Not as, not as active as, let’s say, quarter four of last year and quarter one of this year, but it was reasonably active. Less active on on equities but more active on on yield plus kind of assets. And you know I think overall market share I would say remained the same but a little bit of a little bit of impact on flows of 2, 2 and a half 3000 crores largely because of a combination of a little bit of attrition.
Mohit Mangal
Understood. Any any guidance for financial year 26 in terms of flows or profitability or something?
Karan Bhagat
Yeah, don’t want to give a headline guidance just for next year but at a very philosophical level I think we would like about 12 to 15% AUM every year add around about 8 to 10% on on mark to market so effectively grow the AUM by around about 2025% you know resulting in a 16 to 18% growth in revenues and a consequent 2025% growth in profits. So I think, I think that’s our headline mantra. I think we want to kind of be able to grow our, grow our grow our AUM by 2025% resultant revenue growth of 15 to 20% and back back again PAT growth of 20 to 25%.
Mohit Mangal
Understood. Thanks and wish you all the best for.
Operator
Thank you. Next in line we have Nish Jain Nitesh kindly unmute yourself.
Prayesh Jain
Hi. Hi. Thanks. Hi Karan. So first question is on sharp improvement in retention. I missed the opening remarks but if you can share by our how our wealth management detentions have improved quarter on quarter basis to 80 basis point this quarter and how should we think think about retentions going forward?
Karan Bhagat
No there’s not, there’s not actually a massive massive improvement on a consistent basis of the wealth management retention. I think little bit of improvement on retentions is with little bit of the little bit of the advisory feed is kind of stabilizing and the non active becoming active but obviously this, this quarter has a couple of carry items both on the wealth management side as well as on the asset management side. So that has led to a little bit of improvement on the on retention side. Second obviously the net interest margins in proportion just because we raised capital last quarter quarter three is added a little bit more to the overall ARR aum.
So therefore those two things have kind of contributed a little towards the increase in retention and a little bit third as I said is a little bit of the carry contribution. So from a retention perspective I think on a stable state basis I would still look at it at at closer to the average of the average of the Q1 to Q4 retentions. As to just looking at the Q4 retentions.
Prayesh Jain
Sure. And secondly how should we think about the return on equity? Because we have qip and then there’s more capital which will come through through this UBS transaction. So our ROE will dip quite sharply versus what we used to do in the past. How should we think about ROE trajectory going forward?
Karan Bhagat
Well that’s always a challenge I think but I’m kind of. The opportunities are very, very large. I think, you know, like Anshumant pointed out right at the beginning, I think we are going both wide and we are going wide and deep wide obviously in terms of kind of consolidating our position on the, on the wealth and the alternate side. We’re also going deep in terms of geographies and segments in terms of ultra high net worth, high net worth, skipping the affluent but then going to the mass affluent and similarly on the, on the asset management, you know we built a substantial business in alternates and hopefully we can build a very good business on the public equity side.
Hopefully we can kind of complement the public equities business and grow the mutual fund business larger also. And lastly now with the, with the entire UBS thing coming through, hopefully we can kind of expand the global piece slightly sharper and finally with BNK Global record the capital markets piece altogether. So I think all these five things are kind of coming together. It gives us a lot of width and a lot of breadth and it may, may lead to maybe a complem entry or an overlap of six to nine months of higher capital. By the time, you know, by the time we end up using the current capital raise, we’ll have the, we’ll have the UBS money coming in subject to warrant conversion.
So I think, I think there are lots of opportunities out there. We’ll have to keep our eyes and ears open. I think UBS added a lot of strategic value to the business and therefore, you know we, we felt comfortable taking in that, taking in that capital and building out that optionality. But, but in at the very highest level you’re right. I think to kind of ensure that we are able to do substantial justice to the incremental capital to maintain our roe around the 20% mark.
Nitesh Jain
Sure. And last question is on the global business. We have shown a 50 crore drag. So now going forward, should we assume that that will be the cost saving?
Karan Bhagat
Yeah, that goes away. Yes, that’s right.
Prayesh Jain
Okay, thank you. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Next in line we have a Lakhani kindly unmute and ask your question.
Unidentified Participant
Yeah. Hi Karan. Congratulations on all the good news.
Karan Bhagat
Thank you.
Unidentified Participant
I have three questions pertaining to the overarching business model that the, that the business is re pivoting to and those are across talent flow dynamics, revenue module recalibration and you know, scale up of the existing investments we have made. I just you know, ask you all three. So on the talent flow dynamics. You know, I’m witnessing a notable shift, you know, wherein if you were to take, say, calendar year 23 and prior to that, we were the preferred destination for top talent. And if you, if you see the last two years, we’ve now become a key hunting ground for competitors. So on that front, I’d like your thoughts. That’s point question number one. Do you plan.
Unidentified Participant
Prefer that I ask you all questions?
Karan Bhagat
No, no, just, just, just. I prefer if you ask all three, I can answer it cumulatively.
Unidentified Participant
So that that’s the first one. Second is on the revenue model recalibration. You know, maybe 14, 12, 14 quarters back we discussed about the pivot we made from TBR to ARR. And interestingly now we’re seeing again some early signs of shift back towards tbr particularly, particularly with bsec. So to understand this model recalibration, your thoughts from a build out perspective. And third is that you know, on the scale up of, you know, the mid market and the global piece. Global, of course you have addressed it in the last comment, but you know, could you provide an update on how the mid market piece has been scaling up? Specifically has your ramp up met internal timelines and expectations? Post the earlier delays and are you seeing any operational roadblocks that remain for the scale up?
Karan Bhagat
Great Tejas, thanks for all those questions. So I, I actually love your first question. The good news is you can’t be a hunting ground for talent till you don’t have good talent. And the other thing obviously is the fact that you know, hopefully while we are a hunting ground for good talent, we should hopefully we continue to remain a, remain a platform which continues to attract good talent. I think as long as the second one is, is good to go, I think little bit of churn would happen that I think, you know, overall, you know, I think the way, the way to look at talent is obviously I think we’ve, we’ve lost a few people over the last, last 10 to 12 months and you know, I think as long as it’s within a range, I think we’re fairly, fairly comfortable. I wouldn’t say it’s ideal. It’s obviously a little bit of a stop and go.
Uh, you know, even if you’re running a marathon and you’re the fastest, if you’re, if you have to stop and go a little bit, you, you go a little slower. So we are obviously, you know, whenever we lose talent it’s, it’s not a great thing. But at the same point of time, you know, have aspirations and sometimes cultures don’t match. But overall I think we’re in a good place, happy in, in both the locations where we’ve had a little bit of change, I think we’ve been able to attract some great talent. So you know, sometimes challenges lead to opportunities. And the good news is in both places I think we are very, very well covered. Both, both in terms of relationship managers and in terms of number of employees, a number of senior senior partners whom we are able to attract, as well as our existing. You know, we have a very, very strong existing people on both the investment and the sales side.
So I would say it’s nothing. It’s not the. Even losing a single person is not the ideal state of things, but at the same point of time, it’s part of going business and it’s a little bit of stop and go, but I think we are kind of largely beyond it right now. And you know, we’ve kind of consolidated our position with most of these clients and continue to add wallet share from them. On the TBR air side, there’s no real, there’s no real model model shift at all. Okay. I think it continue to be super, super focused on, on ARR. And you know, when I think of, and I’m going to say this without any, without any context of any projections or guidances and so on and so forth. So please don’t take my, take the numbers I’m giving you as guid. But the reality is today as a business you would be doing around about 2,727 50 crores of revenue and around about give or take, thousand crores of profit after tax. Now ideally speaking, we have to build the right canvas Excel model to move this thousand crores of pat to around about 2,100, 2,200 crores, let’s say 2.2 times in a reasonable time period. Now the reasonable time period could be three years, four years, five years. It could be and you know, beyond the point. None of us have a crystal gauge to get that absolutely right. But some time period between that and when I look at that revenue mix of, revenue mix of, let’s say, and to get to that profit number, you obviously need to do five to five and a half thousand crores of revenue. And when, when I look at, you know, when I look at it forward and see how the 2,700crores is going to grow to 5,5 and a half thousand crores of revenue, three things come to my mind, right? So I think the first thing which comes to my mind is ideally speaking you would need at least 75 to 80% of that number to come in through ARR revenues. So, so and, and I want, would, would love to maintain that mix of coming from ARR revenues. So obviously I think if you, if you were to convert the 5000 crores of revenue into 75 or 80% which is 3750 to 4000 crores and you know, you need to, assuming you are in a broad basis of 65, 70 odd basis points of ARR retention, you know, we need to grow our current 2 lakh 62 70,000 crores of ARR Aum to around about 5, 5 and a half lakh crores in that, in that time period to get there. Second, obviously other income, you know, potentially can add 200, 250 crores, but then you need another thousand crores to come in from the TBR side. And I think when you look at 1000 crores of TBR relative to the current TBR of 600, 650 crores, there are lots of areas of improvement. The first area of improvement, obviously is out of the current 600 crores of TBR, you know, we bought only 75 crores of 75 crores of equity brokerage. I think that’s a big potential area for us. If I, if I look at all our competing private banks, for them, equity brokerage would be a substantially more relevant portion of their revenue. So out of our 2,700 crores today, it’s less than, it’s less than 2.53%. Should it be close to round about 8 to 10%? The answer is yes. So I think, you know, getting a great research firm like BMK not only adds that 200, 250 crores of equity brokerage which they get, but also increases our potential of increasing R70 crores of equity. Brokerage to our set of clients to at least maybe two or three times that amount over a period of time. So if I look at the thousand crores of tbr, I think we need, we need, we need a good, good equity platform to get there. Along with that, obviously the, the unlisted equity piece, the fixed income trading piece and obviously a little bit of merchant banking. All of that would put together to, would aggregate to 800 to 1000 crores and even then that would be less than 20% of our overall revenue piece. So there’s no real pivot. Having said that, you know we need to build a very stable tbr and within, within the TBR itself obviously there are different, different different qualities and different cyclicalities. So even within the tbr, our, our effort is to try and ensure that the quality of TBR is the best. And while we maintain TBR of 2025 over the overall business yet we need to kind of grow it to ensure that it’s, it’s at the right number over a three to four year time period. Lastly, coming to a question of mid market and global, I think, I wouldn’t call them operational difficulties but at the same point of time I think mid market, you know, I think took a slightly longer time from a, from an organization structure perspective which I’ve kind of mentioned before but now really it’s down to execution and feet on street. So we’ve seen some AUM started to come. I think the revenues will kind of follow. We’ve now got a good team of, for 45, 50 relationship managers on the high net worth side. So that goes on stream as we speak. It’s pretty much on stream already. I think our first five or six B2B presentations we made last month all have kind of come back with a good response and I think, I think that’s something which will kind of find its, find its feet for sure this year. On the, on the global side I think you know, the collaboration agreements will take a little bit longer. You know, the regulatory approval itself will take three to four months to come. So by the time it goes on stream I think it’s, it’s at least, it’s definitely thought for order of, of the current year but there are no real operational challenges. We are, we are very well licensed in every jurisdiction for us to be able to start business everywhere. We’ve got offices everywhere which are kind of engaged in asset management distribution for us in any case and that’s, that’s kind of given us the license in every, every jurisdiction so in some senses I wouldn’t call it any anything, you know, not there’s no operational kind of obstacle is really it’s really up to us to kind of do better execution on the mid market side and on the global side. It’ really about kind of accelerating the accelerating the regulatory approvals within the possible time constraints and ensuring that we get the collaboration agreements in place as fast as possible.
Unidentified Participant
Got it. Thanks for that measured answer. I just have one follow up, if I may.
Karan Bhagat
Okay, let’s maybe I’ll I’ll answer within. Next question. But I’ll. I’ll take the question.
Unidentified Participant
Yeah, sure. So just one thing. See you earlier again, many calls back alluded to when an RM leaves. You know, typically they walk away with 1/3 of the, you know AUM. 1/3 is a cohort of clients who say okay start Karo. We’ll see how you Progress. And 1/3 typically stays on with, with the manager himself. So is that, has that changed in lieu of the recent senior management exits? And also on the UBS bit, how does the revenue collab collaboration work? Yeah. Thanks so much and all the best.
Karan Bhagat
Thank you.
Operator
Yeah. Next, I invite Sanket Goda to kindly ask your question.
Sanket Godha
Yeah. Can you hear me now?
Operator
Yes.
Sanket Godha
Okay. So. So first is the data keeping question. So. So just wanted to understand how much ET money contributed to the AUM top line and profit in the current year after the integration. And I just wanted to understand how was the growth in that platform as AUM growth. So that’s my first question and the second question I think you answered partially but just wanted to understand again that the discretionary PMS which saw the BIPs of retention of almost 100 basis point compared to typical 40 basis point is largely because of the carry what got recognized in the current quarter. Right. And if, if. If this carry is not there in future years or immediate quarters then. Then it is going to claw back to same 40 basis points. Is is the right understanding on, on the discretionary PMS side. And lastly on global aspiration. So, so we had a team, now team is not there.
So, so with UBS thing is it fair to assume that your international base will be more UBS linked compared to building your own team to, to. To. To build the global aspiration in. In a way just, Just want to understand a little more on, on that side whether UBS will take over that entire global aspiration journey which we had. Those are my questions.
Karan Bhagat
I’ll just get Anshum. Yeah,
Anshuman Maheshwary
Absolutely. Sure, sure. On the ET money I’m happy to just clarify the numbers. So on the aum side about 33,000 crores of Aum has been added on the truck on the TBR AUM side and on the ARR side about 1750 odd crores has come in and this is obviously been reflected and been called up in the investor deck as well. The revenues from ET Money, just to note ET Money is about 8 weeks revenue and cost have gotten captured for this particular quarter. So the revenues is about at 6 odd crores and there is a 1 crore loss for this two months. Month period.
Sanket Godha
And if I do it standalone, full year basis, what would be the number though? You have not integrated that. But from full year basis point of view, what, what’s the run rate on profit and revenue?
Karan Bhagat
The loss will be around about six to seven, I’m sure. Why don’t you go for it?
Anshuman Maheshwary
Yeah, I mean obviously just two months, you know translates at, at a 1cr loss translates to about 6 to 7. But I think for the full year if we look at their actual financial numbers, It’ll be about 10 to 12 crores. So it’ll be higher than that for money.
Sanket Godha
Okay, perfect. And revenue, if you can call out 2 months, it’s 6 crores then for full year reports,
Anshuman Maheshwary
Revenue will largely, largely be on track. I think it won’t be exactly, it’ll be about 50 odd crores. 50 to 52 crores would be the revenue.
Sanket Godha
Okay, perfect, perfect. Yeah. And, and on the, the yield part or retention part with respect to discretionary pms which I think, Sorry,
Karan Bhagat
I think you’re right. I think the discretionary PMS on the, on the, on the separately managed accounts would go back to the, to the same numbers. But having said that there are, there are at least three or four mandates in which we get a, we get a profit share. So you know the best is to look at the annualized yield as opposed to look at the quarterly yield. It’s not as if it’ll disappear next year but it’ll dis appear next quarter.
Sanket Godha
Okay so, so from, from full year point of view you are confident that the same yield will be reported
Karan Bhagat
Around the same. It will be reported next year also. Yes,
Sanket Godha
Got it. And on the global thing,
Karan Bhagat
So global. You’re right. I think from a global wealth management aspiration perspective, as I said earlier, it’s an exclusive collaboration with ubs. So we are hoping to work together with them and have the right spokes in India to be able to expand our global aspirations with them.
Sanket Godha
Okay, perfect. That’s it for my side. Thank you.
Karan Bhagat
Thank you.
Operator
Next in line with Dipanjan. Kindly unmute yourself and ask your question.
Dipanjan Ghosh
Hey. Hi Karan. Hope I’m audible.
Yatin Shah
Yeah. Hi. Hi.
Dipanjan Ghosh
So just few questions from my side, you know if for the fourth quarter if you can give some color on the breakup of the transactional revenue, you know, just wanted to get some sense of you know, the ex broking businesses, how they are holding up and some color on how you really see that. Let’s say for the next few quarters given the market volatility. Second coming back, you know to the question on OPEX now, you know, owing to this UBS venture and, you know, strategic initiative, do you see any, you know, sort of costs that you deploy to kind of get the ball rolling out there maybe for the next 12 to 18 months, especially on the especially on the joint venture rather than the business that is getting acquired and. Lastly, on the ESOP expense side, it seems that for the last two quarters it has been a little bit higher than the historical levels. So how should one think of the overall variable cost or maybe the EOP cost going ahead?
Karan Bhagat
Just remind me what was the first question?
Dipanjan Ghosh
Yeah, the first question was on the transactional revenue.
Karan Bhagat
Yeah, I got.
Dipanjan Ghosh
In terms of.
Karan Bhagat
I remember, I remember, yeah, no problem. No, so I think, I think on the. Just give you a very quick color of the transaction revenue on quarter four. I think it’s a very interesting mix actually. I think one, obviously I think our equity brokerage numbers quite hold up quite well. So that 70, 75 crores was around about 18, 20 crores for the, for the quarter. If I just look at pure, pure equity listed brokerage, add another 2, 3, 4 crores for commodities. So around about 15 odd percent of the TBR number was that. Then we had a third coming from yield plus kind of transactions. So effectively REITs and InvITs and stuff like that. A third coming from the unlisted side and another third coming from real estate.
So I think overall it was more of fixed income. For the first quarter we saw 50% coming out of fixed income and 50% coming out of equity. Traditionally compared to other quarters, I think unlisted was a substantially large portion. I think given the way the client appetite is and even, you know, the kind of transactions which are available for us today and the kind of momentum on both the, on, both on, on all asset classes, I think it’s fair to say, I think going forward it would, I think it’ll become a third of a third of a third of equity brokerage for us this year. A third of unlisted and a third of a third of yield plus kind of transactions. And the yield plus transaction I’m using kind of slightly, slightly broadly to include everything, REITs in bits, commercial assets and so on and so forth. So I think that’s, that’s going to be the broad nature of TBR.
I think potentially over the next, you know, 12 months after that we might have some other flows coming in from merchant banking and stuff like that. But for the next year, I think a third of equities, a third of unlisted or third of yield plus transactions including debt will really represent the color of the tbr. And coming down to the. Sorry,
Dipanjan Ghosh
Please, please go ahead. I mean, OPEX part.
Karan Bhagat
Yeah, coming opex really? No, no significant OPEX because of the, because of the UBS integration at all. I think we’ve got a couple of our really smart people kind of working through the. Working through the transaction. I think some of the senior leadership, including me, me and Shuman, you know, will, Will be part of the collaboration committee to ensure that, along with the senior leadership from the UBS side, to ensure that we can get the coordination and the collaboration going on as fast as possible. And you know, the two senior folks and three senior folks pretty much running, running it from the strategy office. So they would kind of continue as, as one of the key roles into this, into this function and you know, along with the finance team who’s also involved in the, in the coordination efforts. So I think overall doesn’t really lead to any, any significant opex. Our international offices continue to function as small offices for the asset management distribution side. And you know, we’ve got one person in Canada, one person in two, three folks in three folks in Dubai, around 600 people in Singapore. So that continues that, that doesn’t see any change. And, and lastly, I think on the ESOP cost, you’re right, we’ve done, we’ve taken approval last, last March, I think last January, last January and we launched this program for employees called, called golden ESOPs which, which broadly accounted to around about, I think if I’m not wrong, 75, 80 lakh shares over a period of, over a period of four to six years of vesting. So that kind of that cost has kicked in over the last, last, especially in the last nine months of this financial year. And like all ESOP plans, a large part of that cost gets, gets accounted for in the first year itself. So in the first year itself I think around about 25 to 35% of the cost comes in, which is really by the higher E cost. I think for the next two years it’s fair to say the E cost will be at similar levels, not, not phenomenally different, maybe 10% lower but and then the year after that a further 10% lower because simply because there’s a certain quantum of upfronting of the, of the, of the uh, of the ESOP costs. Uh, yeah, so I think that’s, that covers your three questions. Thank you.
Operator
Thank you.
Dipanjan Ghosh
Got it Karan, thank you and all the best.
Operator
Thank you. Next in line we have Harish Subramaniam. Harish, kindly unmute and ask your question.
Unidentified Participant
Hi Karan team. Want to understand a couple of things. On the UBS AG inbound there be any referral fees, you know, or any revenue sharing with UBS AG for their global clients getting referred to you or would it be like what, you know, you would acquire a typical Ultra HNI client?
Karan Bhagat
Well, I think, you know, the collaboration, collaboration agreement by definition will have referral fees flowing both sides. I think there will be both outbound referral fees for us and similarly when UBS refers a client to us. But it’s still early days. I think on a principal basis we have a very broad agreement on, on all of these things. We’ve still not gone down to kind of constructing the collaboration agreements on a, on, on a case to case basis. We were. We have broadly identified the 13, 14 collaboration areas which we are going to work on. And I think between both the teams we spend enough time to know that there’s a good significant opportunity on all of these 1314 points in terms of defining exact commercials between these, you know we’ve kind of set that out as a part of the collaboration committee to kind of work on that and get it done.
Unidentified Participant
Okay, good. Another one, you know, broadly in the industry per se, you know, inbound. So what’s the kind of industry opportunity if you have some numbers in terms of inbound wealth management numbers
Karan Bhagat
Inbound, very, very large. I think you know today if I just look at our own NRI book would be in excess of $2 billion already without US really kind of having a, having an NRI sourcing office at all. Right. So I think the in, in inward bound market is very, very large especially for things like private markets alternates. You know the only money which has come until now is really on the listed equity side and mutual fund side with all the awareness on G City and everything else. I think it’s a very, very large opportunity. I think, you know I really don’t have any exact numbers but can our 2 billion become three times the number? If you get that right, I think it won’t be a big surprise.
So I think that’s, that’s the inbound opportunity is very large. The outbound opportunity obviously is kind of limited in its own way by, by whatever is possible regulatory. But there also we’ve seen a good movement happening on the, on the Gift City and you know the LRS money also which has been going out for the last five, 10 years for the first three, four years largely went into education and medical and so on and so forth for the last four, five years is kind of finding its way into a financial asset portfolio. So I think both put together, I think it’s a, it’s a reasonable size I think but the challenge and the heart of it is in the, in the execution and having the right platform to be able to implement it.
Unidentified Participant
Got it. Perfect. Thank you so much.
Operator
Thank you.
Karan Bhagat
Thank you.
Operator
Next in line we have Abhijit Sakari. Abhijit, kindly go ahead and ask your question. I invite Akash Vora to kindly ask a question. Akash, kindly unmute yourself and ask your question.
Akash Vora
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity and congrats Karan sir for great set of numbers. So firstly I would like to understand on the collaboration agreement. So within that agreement do we also have a non compete signed with ubs wherein UBS won’t in the future come and compete in the same set of business that we have, go ahead with asset management in India or something like that. And my second question would be in terms of. The, the on the alternate side in the asset management business. So are more or less the, the bigger outflows done this year or do we expect more outflows and redemptions in the coming year as well? If you could give a hang of the number,
Karan Bhagat
No. So I think the collaboration agreement obviously has specific non compete clauses which are reasonable time period non compete clauses. I wouldn’t want to go into specific details of each non compete clause but they’re very reasonable on both sides. So for obviously for whatever, whatever service UBS is providing us and similarly whatever service we are providing to UBS and the non competes are fairly, fairly, fairly commercial and fairly limited from a time period point. But, but they’re there from a, from a perspective of redemptions. I think the larger redemptions obviously are only there in normal course. Now the obviously expressed itself in a big way in terms of a single item of redemption because the SOF series which was 1 to 7 was raised on a specific period of time and all of it kind of came up for redemption together. So we raised around about 7,000 crores. I think we have returned on about 16, 17,000 crores of which 7, 7 and a half, 8,000 crores got returned this year itself or 7,000 crores got returned this year. So I think that fund is more or less returned fully. I think it’s got a very small amount of, if I’m not wrong, sub round thousand on crores remaining to return. So we don’t have any block redemptions through this year or even in the coming years.
The block redemptions are largely now over. Now obviously we’ve got funds which we’ve raised every year and every year we’ll raise some funds and every year some funds will come for redemption. So it’s going to be a natural cycle. Now
Akash Vora
Understood. If you could just highlight what kind of AMC flows on the alternate side you would expect in the next two years.
Karan Bhagat
I think, you know, we’ve not kind of really, we’ve not, we’ve not kind of segmented our thought process exactly between, between alternates and public markets. But overall I think we would like a net flow number as I said earlier, of around about 10 to 12% of our opening AUM. So our opening AUM is around about 270,000 crores. So around about 2 27,000 crores to 30,000 crores is the overall AUM you would want. I think it’s fair to say approximately 65 odd percent. 60, 65% of that on the wealth management side and on about 35% of that on the. On the asset management side.
Akash Vora
Thank you.
Karan Bhagat
Thank you. Thanks a lot. I think.
Operator
Yeah. That’s all we have time for this evening. Thank you, all of you for joining us. We look forward to hosting you again. Thank you.