Note: This is a preliminary transcript and may contain inaccuracies. It will be updated with a final, fully-reviewed version soon.
360 One Wam Ltd (NSE: 360ONE) Q3 2026 Earnings Call dated Jan. 15, 2026
Corporate Participants:
Sanjay Wadhwa — Chief Financial Officer
Anshuman Maheshwary — Chief Operating Officer
Karan Bhagat — Founder, Managing Director & CEO
Analysts:
Mohit Mangal — Analyst
Unidentified Participant
Siddharth — Analyst
Nitesh Jain — Analyst
Abhijit Sakare — Analyst
Dipanjan Ghosh — Analyst
Lalit Deo — Analyst
Presentation:
Operator
Ladies and gentlemen and welcome to 361 WAM Earnings Call for Q3FY26. As a reminder, all participant lines will be on listen only mode. In case you wish to ask any questions or require assistance during the conference, kindly signal the host by tapping on the raised hand icon. Please note this conference is being recorded on the call. Today we have with us Mr. Karan Bhagat, MD, CEO, Mr. Yatin Shah, CEO of the Wealth Business, Mr. Anshuman Maheshwari, Chief Operating Officer and Mr. Sanjay Wadhwa, CFO.
I now hand it over to Sanjay Vadwa to take this conference ahead. Thank you,
Sanjay Wadhwa — Chief Financial Officer
Thank you Anil. Very good evening to all the participants. Over the past year, Indian capital markets navigated a period of heightened volatility shaped by evolving geopolitical dynamics and intermittent bouts of market consolidation. Encouragingly, even in such challenging market environment, the asset and wealth management ecosystem continue to demonstrate resilience with healthy inflows driven by record levels of mutual fund SIP contributions, sustained activity in terms of monetization events and a growing investor preference for alternate asset classes.
Coming to our business, our total ARR AUM increased to 3.17,906 crores up 28% year on year Wealth Arrum at 218,957 crores and Asset Management Arrum at 98,949 crores. This growth was supported by strong net flows at 14,758 crores in Q3FY26 and Rupees 46,890 crores for nine months FY26. We expect this momentum to sustain as our newly onboarded high quality teams continue to mature and achieve scale in asset management. Flows remain firmly on track supported by healthy demand across funds spanning all asset classes.
The asset management business saw good mobilizations during the quarter with over 2000 crores raised in our real asset strategy, 2500 crores of commitments in our private credit strategy and 2000 crores raised in our mid and small cap focused listed strategy. Our ARR revenue in the quarter grew 45.4% year on year at Rupees 619 crores, led by strong asset growth as well as improved retentions. Our ARR revenue as a percentage of total revenue from operations stood at 77%. ARR retention remained strong at 81 basis points.
Incremental carry revenue during the quarter contributed about approximately 6 basis points during the quarter and the retentions are expected to normalize in the quarters to come. Transaction and broking revenues rose by 4.2% to 186 crores. As stated in our previous quarter, revenue from Institutional equities business of BNK which is now being rebranded to 361 Capital is being classified as TBR. This business integration meaningfully enhances the sustainability of TBR revenues and is expected to moderate the periodic volatility experienced in the past thereby improving the overall quality of predictability of earnings.
Total revenue increased by 21.8% to 826 crores driven by strong growth in both wealth and asset verticals partially offset by lower other income. Total costs were flat as compared to previous quarter at 399crores with corresponding cost to income ratio at 48.3%. This is after factoring the estimated impact of the new labor code which in our case was not very material at Rupees seven and a half crores. We expect gradual improvement in this CI metric for the consolidated business over the coming quarters as we scale up and drive synergies from strategic initiatives as well as the incoming teams.
In the wealth UHNI segment, we are very happy to report that the company recorded its highest ever quarterly PAT at 331 crores, an increase of 20.3% year on year. Tangible ROE rose to 21% as against 20.4% in the previous quarter. This ratio is expected to improve in the coming quarters as additional capital deployed in our lending and alternate businesses in FY25 begins to reflect in the overall earnings. With that I would like to hand over to Anshuman to cover key business and strategic highlights.
Anshuman Maheshwary — Chief Operating Officer
Thanks Sanjay. Good evening everyone. Building on Sanjay’s thoughts on our overall business performance, I would like to begin with some comments on our core businesses. Our nine month net flow stood at approximately rupees forty seven thousand crores with robust organic flows at over rupees twenty six thousand crores having already equaled our full year 2025 numbers. Despite attrition related outflows that we spoken about earlier in H1 we’ve delivered strong organic net flows of rupees nineteen thousand crores or twelve percent of our opening ARR Aum in wealth management in this nine month period.
The strong performance reflects the fundamental strength of our franchise, the differentiated platform proposition and products and most importantly the continued ability to attract senior talent. Across our key geographies. The total net flows in wealth stands at approximately Rupees forty thousand crores. With the flows being spread across the different regions within asset management, we continue to witness strong flows across asset classes. Net flows of over 4400 crores for this quarter were driven by new funds launched as well as inflows in existing strategies in the listed unlisted credit and real estate space.
While we maintain our leadership on advising global institutions on listed equities, we are excited to see increased interest and engagement from institutions seeking exposure to to India’s private markets. In this regard, we are happy to state that we have our first mandate from a global institution in the private equity vertical in quarter three. Leveraging our established alternative investment capabilities, we are well positioned to capitalize on such opportunities in the future while in parallel we continue to deepen our distribution footprint in the listed space with a particular focus on expanding reach through the MFD channel.
Looking ahead, visibility on multiple fund launches in the AIF and SIF segments along with ongoing discussions around institutional mandates across strategies reinforces our confidence in the strength and durability of the overall pipeline. A Quick Update on the Key Strategic Initiatives Starting with UBS I’m pleased to announce that the signing of our comprehensive Global Collaboration Framework for Wealth was completed in November of last year. We are already witnessing encouraging early traction on cross border client referrals and remain excited about emerging synergies in asset management as well as other areas.
With strong leadership commitment from both organizations, we are well positioned to unlock the potential of this partnership and will continue to update on the progress over the next few quarters. Secondly, on the HNI segment, our conviction on the potential of that business segment continues to strengthen as we gain momentum in client additions as well as flows. With over 60 RMS across 12 locations, we are now well poised to accelerate the scaling up and build this segment as a vital feeder pipeline as well for our UHNI proposition.
Thirdly, ET Money is undergoing a transition from a transaction led investing app to a comprehensive wealth platform for the affluent segment with monetization embedded at every stage. By combining choice led engagement models and expanding product suite which aligns with our core proposition and technology enabled human advice, ET Money is continuing to build a differentiative yet scalable moat which we are quite excited by. And lastly we are pleased to share that BNK securities is now rebranded as 361 Capital integrating corporate and institutional equities as core capabilities.
This integration not only expands our capital markets footprint but reinforces our positioning as one of India’s most comprehensive financial services platform spanning wealth management, asset management, alternates lending, enhanced institutional and capital market capabilities as well as superior global access. Overall. We remain focused on consolidating our multiple business lines to deliver a full stack financial services offering aimed at Further strengthening our leadership position with our core clients.
At 361 technology remains a critical investment priority spanning internal operations, cybersecurity and client facing innovation. We are advancing AI powered pilots across key functions to drive efficiency gains and informed decision making, positioning ourselves to expand these capabilities as they further mature. Lastly, I would like to thank our clients and stakeholders for their continued trust and confidence which has been integral to our journey and progress. And with that I’d like to hand it over to Karan for his thoughts.
Karan Bhagat — Founder, Managing Director & CEO
Thank you. Thank you Sanjay. Thank you Anshuman and thank you for everybody for joining in on a holiday. Let me start off by wishing everybody a Happy New Year. I want to spend 2, 2 to 3 minutes quickly on broadly the last 9 months and our continued focus areas for the next 12 months to around about 3 odd years and post that, you know, take a pause and take questions from there. So I think as we look forward and look at the back, I think we continue to be super super positive on the business lines.
We spent the last 15, 16, 17 years going deeper and deeper into over the last 17 years I think we’ve spent a lot of time and energy on building two critical businesses. Once the ultra high net worth management business and second is the alternates business. Over the last eight to nine years we continue to remain extremely buoyant about those two. Our brand recall as well as our acceptability among clients above 50 crores continues to remain at the highest. Our proposition has become deeper and deeper.
Our ability to provide clients advice across multiple asset classes, provide solutions across their entire asset portfolio, our ability to work and sit with them and build their investment policy statements for their entire life cycle continues to be the strongest ever. Both monetizations on the listed side, unlisted side, sometimes even change your wealth manager on the ground without liquidity events. All of them continue to be fairly active programs for us. And over the last quarter to the last nine months one of the most active things for us has been the ability to add new clients and relationships and it’s fair to say over the last three and a half four years we more or less doubled our entire maybe two and a half times our entire client base which we kind of accumulated over the last 12 to 13 years preceding the last three to four years.
The second portion of business which we are really really kind of excited about continues to be the alternates business. They we’re really thankful to the to the regulator and SEBI has taken a lot of proactive steps where we’ve seen at least three very three Excellent kind of new new initiatives on the AIF side. 1 Clearly the introduction of, of of the co investment vehicles. Second is the introduction of being reduced from 75 crores to 25 crores. And thirdly the introduction of AI investors on the alternative investment fund side gives us a lot of maneuverability and flexibility to be able to kind of keep building our AI business across multiple strategies.
Over the last eight odd years we built four clear strategies on the AIF side and on the real asset side on the unlisted side pre IPO as well as recently on listed side with the pipe fund. So I think we continue to remain very, very very buoyant about the alternate space and with the new regulations both on the LVF side as well as on the CO investment vehicle side it gives us a lot of additional ammunition to be able to really take advantage of the 50000 crores we’ve already kind of built in the space over the last seven to eight years.
Performance there continues to be fairly robust. I think 95% of our funds are in the, in the, in the top in our rated 90 percentile and above from a performance perspective. And most of our old clients continue to kind of come into the new schemes as the older schemes continue to mature. While we remain extremely excited about these two businesses along with our listed asset management business we are eagerly looking forward to the new businesses we are squarely excited about on bnk. The first fruits of our merger together will come through on the equity brokerage side over the next 12 odd months we definitely would see, we definitely see a 25 30% increase on our high net worth equity brokerage as we’ve typically seen over the last four to five years there we are working very hard to ensure that the research product reaches our ultra high net worth clients and family offices clients in the right way.
And effectively while they have been doing wealth management with us for the longest time we’re able to kind of get them to also looking at equity advice on our platform. Along with that obviously over the next six to 12 months we’ll build out good equities and a banking practice. Most of that would come in the second half of the next calendar year. But you know we are early days of attracting talent and you know it’s, it’s really hard, it’s really heartwarming to meet talent and we feel encouraged that we are seeing a lot of people who are, who are aspirationally looking at building the business along with us over the next 12 to 18 months on the, on the Segment side, I think obviously on the ultra high natural side we’ve been fairly, fairly positive.
We want to extend it to the mid segment between the 5 to 50 crores and that’s something which we are working very hard to build. On the, on the reserve side, happy to say that business started off with less than 400, 500 crores of AUM at the beginning of the current financial year in a very steady format it’s grown to around about 3000 crores plus we build, we kept the retention strong at 100, 110 basis points in that business. Building it in a very, in a very measured manner, ensuring that we get the building pillars of the business right.
We’ve now got close to 58 relationship managers on that business and we’ve got net new flows of nearly 2,000, 2,200 crores for the, for the financial year from that business. ET Money is a business. We’ll still kind of take a little bit longer, three to six months to kind of discover the exact monetization model. But what gives us a lot of confidence there is both brand recall as well as engagement on the platform continues to be at, at historic high. Outside of these two, obviously there’s a fair degree of excitement in the ability of building the right inward platform from Gift City.
I think there are a lot of institutions across the world interested in being able to understand institutions as well as family offices and are able to in the ability to understand how to access India through the Gift City. Overall, if I just kind of combine these business lines together with our client segments, I think we have a large play across multiple asset classes and it’s not restricted only to listed equity. We’ve got a very, very significant opportunity to be able to play unlisted equity.
Unlisted equity, real assets including REITs, inwards yield based assets, real estate, fixed income, performing bonds, AAA credit, sometimes structured credit and all of these things put together kind of and the entire global platform. So all put together it’s kind of given us a fairly wide, wide, wide platform to play with and it’s kind of isolated us with a little bit of sensitivity to the capital markets also because we’re able to kind of tug along in our business lines across multiple asset classes.
So I think very focused business lines, multiple asset classes. And what we really now want to kind of and multiple segments. What we now want to kind of expand is to multiple geographies. I think we’ve been again done extremely well in phase one and kind of building out Bombay, Delhi, Bangalore, Chennai, Pune and Calcutta over the phase, second phase, over the last five, six years we’ve built out the next 10 cities. Hyderabad, Hyderabad, Rajkot, Indore, Bhavnadar and so on and so forth. We’ve kind of really focused hard on building out to, to those, those regions.
I think today honestly if I can think of another 10 cities including places like Dubai, Singapore, it’s a big, big market. So fourth, obviously kind of ensure that we are able to build build a a much more significant geographical presence in keeping and kind of ensuring that these four things which is basically asset classes, business lines, segments and geographies, we are able to go deeper and deeper. Two things we’ll have to constantly ensure and that that that gives me the maximum, these two things give me the maximum amount of confidence.
First is obviously the platform has to be super robust and has to be able to offer the right set of solutions to the client. We worked very, very hard over the last 17 years to is very robust and we are able to meet every need of the client whether it’s on the advisory side, whether it’s on the planning side, whether it’s on the lending side and whether it’s on the brokerage side. And we are proud to say today we have a fairly fully aligned platform which is able to meet all the needs of the client.
And second, obviously we can’t compromise on the depth of talent and that’s something which we’ve kind of worked very hard on. I think from pretty much from 2008 as professional entrepreneurs we shared shared our rewards in a very very proportionate which has led us to having a very, very deep, deep, deep, deep bench of talent. And as we continue to grow we are able to attract phenomenal amount of talent also. And you know, as, as we face, as we faced a little bit of attrition over the last 12 to 24 months, our own ability to add a fresh set of legs and an equally enthusiastic and capable set of legs in in all our in locations as Delhi and Bangalore has really kind of given us a lot of confidence to be able to kind of invest deeper and keep growing larger.
And most importantly, I think the depth of talent gives us a lot of confidence. I feel much, much more confident as a professional entrepreneur compared to 10 to 12 years back where effectively we used to hear things like there are only 400, 500 people with similar talent across the industry. I think today that number across businesses is a much larger number and it’s something which we can kind of really invest with a lot of confidence saying we will have the Right talent to back our aspirations.
So all put together I think four clear strong business lines want to kind of build ourselves mostly in a very large way on the ultra high network segment, ensure that we do the right things with the different segments, expand ourselves to different geographies and keep our talent as well as our platform as as strong as possible. And a culmination of all of those things will hopefully kind of allow us to continue growing in the right direction. Thank you. So we’ll just open it up to questions please.
Questions and Answers:
Operator
Sure, sure. Thank you. Karan, to ask your question kindly click on the raise hand icon. First in line we have Mohit Mangal. Mohit, kindly unmute yourself and ask your question.
Mohit Mangal
Yeah, hi, am I audible?
Operator
Yes, go ahead please.
Mohit Mangal
Yeah, thanks for the opportunity and congratulations on a good set of numbers. So I’ve got a few questions starting off with we have a very good net flow this quarter so just couple of sub questions into that. Has the growth come from the increasing the wallet size of existing clients or are the newer clients who are putting in more flows? And secondly, how do you see financial year 27 now that financial 26 is on a very solid base?
Karan Bhagat
I think what. Thanks, thanks, thanks for the, thanks for the encouragement and I think on netflows, honestly I think it’s a culmination of many things. It’s a lot of things kind of coming together. I think after many quarters we’ve had a very strong netflow number even on the asset management business, close to five odd thousand crores. And you know we’ve kind of, to be honest we’ve had a good gross flow number for the last three, four quarter but it’s just that our redemptions, or not our redemptions but rather our distributions from our first pip fund, more or less we’ve got kind of fully paid those funds out.
Not more or less, we’ve actually fully paid those funds out in the last quarter. So in that sense the netflow number on the asset management business at 4 and a half 5,000 crores looks very, very, very strong. Don’t see it as a one time. I think we’ve got a lot of new products on the anvil so feel fairly confident about it. On the wealth management side it’ combination like you rightly said of enhancement of wallet share as well as new clients kind of coming in. I think new clients obviously add to the net flow from a revenue perspective kind of come into, come into play only over the last, over the next three to six odd and three odd three to six months as a Part of the passive outflow, passive AUM which is, which comes in kind of moves into active AUM over next three to six months.
But overall I would, I would say, you know, on the, on the asset management side it’s 4 and a half, 5,000 crores. The rest of the flows are largely a combination of increase in wallet share as well as, as well as new money coming in. Again, that’s a ratio of around about 50, 50, 60, 40.
Mohit Mangal
Understood. So any revised upward guidance for financial year 27?
Karan Bhagat
You know, I think to be honest, guidance is kind of automatically revised upwards every year because I’m just going back to my old, old model that we need to grow our AUM by 22 to 24% and assuming a 10 odd percent kind of mark to market on a steady basis across all asset classes, alternates listed equity, we’ve obviously averaged higher than that. But assuming a 9 to 10% we need to do, you know, 12 to 13% of opening AUM as net flows. So I think as the opening AUM AUM there’s a large gap. So obviously the next year Target automatically becomes 12% of the closing AUM.
So to that extent aspirationally, you know, we would always want to get net flows in the region of 10 to 12% of our closing AUM. So in some senses our, our guideline, our, our kind of guidance is not changing in percentage terms but in absolute terms. Obviously you need to work much harder to get to that 12% Netflix flows.
Mohit Mangal
Understood. My next question is towards the TBR revenue. So if I look at the TBR revenue, even excluding bnk, they have been very, very solid. So can you just, you know, share some reasons for this kind of stronger growth there?
Karan Bhagat
So TBR revenue is a very interesting line item. I think while they are strong, if you see, you know, on a Q1Q basis and you know, it’s, it’s kind of come off a bit and you sequentially on a year, on year basis also it’s not really kind of grown dramatically. I think we’ve worked really hard. We’ve kind of more or less now I would say TBR revenue coming out of pure financial products in terms of managed accounts is practically zero. Right. Because we are hardly booking any upfront from, there’s no upfront in mutual funds.
AIFs are practically, really, really small amount. So the rest of the TBR revenue which is really left is largely in some ways brokerage and syndication. Right. So the good thing there obviously is we’ve got brokerage and syndication across multiple asset Classes. So if you look at brokerage and syndication today, we’ve got nearly six or seven lines on which we are booking income. The first line which is obviously there is the secondary, secondary brokerage coming on, on stocks. Right. So there obviously now we’re kind of covering two segments.
We’re covering institutional, the institutional segment and the family office segment through the, through the BNK transaction. And we are servicing the, and we are covering the high net worth on individuals on the second return side. So I think those three things put together today aggregate to run about a 60 to 70 crore kind of equity brokerage number on a 60 odd crore, 60, 65 crore equity brokerage number on, on a quarterly basis the remaining 100150020 crores, you’ve got unlisted equities, you’ve got fixed income and bonds, you’ve got real estate, you’ve got, you’ve got a little bit of real assets and then you’ve got a really small, small portion maybe coming through, maybe a crore or 2 crores coming through insurance and stuff like that.
So I think, I think transaction brokerage revenue would really be a function of our ability to work through these five or six asset classes and eventually once we build it out a little bit more over the next three to six months you’ll see some revenue additions coming from things like investment banking and us taking on some ECN mandates and so on and so forth. So today I think to be honest, overall I would say the quality of TBR is better than where it was 24 months back or even 12 months back.
While the number itself might not have grown dramatically over 12 months but I think from a quality and sustainability perspective it’s a much better number. I don’t see dramatically increase over the next two, three years. I think it shows a healthy inflation linked growth but obviously I think a part of that resultant growth will show up in the, in, in the ARR AUM growth because it kind of gives us the ability to continuously add more to the ARR as compared to the tbr.
Mohit Mangal
Understood. So my last question is that you know, now that the team is there, do you think operating leverage will kick in and maybe over the next 18 to 24 months the cost to income ratio would look lower?
Karan Bhagat
No, no, we have to, we have to increase operating leverage. There’s no doubt about it I think because at the end of the day, I think today at around about 48 and a half, 49 cost to income. I think, I think, I think one of the key objectives we would have for next Year is obviously cost optimization. Now cost optimization can happen through three, four, three four things. It doesn’t need to happen at the cost of growth but obviously it happens out of 34 things. The first and most important is if I kind of break up the cost to income ratio of today 48.2, 48.3%.
You’ve got nearly three and a half four percent coming out of two, two kind of businesses which are I would say not in the mature stage which is ET Money and, and our, and our reserve business which is the HNI business. Those two kind of contribute to around about three and a half 4% on the cost to income side. So on a steady state basis the rest of our businesses are at 44 and a half 45 life. I see both businesses kind of being close to reserve definitely HNI business definitely breaking even next year or middle half of next year.
And ET Money hopefully on a run rate basis being close to break even next towards the end of next financial year. So I definitely see, let’s say out of the 400 basis points I see around about 200 basis points on an annualized basis, 150200 basis points recovery on the cost to income ratio on these two items put together. And on the core business I think we need some productivity gains. I think, I wouldn’t say productivity gains obviously comes in two formats. I think there are some places where we may have kind of over recruited over a period of time or the last three to four years which automatically kind of gets adjusted through growth in business.
And second, obviously as we build out new businesses we have a lot of talent within the system which we have the ability to move around. So overall I think we should be able to achieve 100, 125 basis points or 150 basis points improvement in cost to income on the, on the core business and potentially another 125, 150 basis points on the new businesses. So we would definitely as a, as a team want to target 45 to 46 for next year. Hopefully we can get to 45 aspirationally, but otherwise 46 for sure compared to the 48.2 we are at now.
Mohit Mangal
Understood, this is very helpful. Thanks and wish you all the best.
Karan Bhagat
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. As a reminder, you may click on the raise hand icon to ask your question and we’ll really appreciate if you could restrict yourself to two questions. Next in line we have Niranjan Kumaranjan. Kindly unmute and ask your question.
Unidentified Participant
I hope I am audible. Yes sir. Thank you for giving the opportunity and. Congratulations on the good set of numbers. So basically I have two questions. One on the flows on the retentions like where can we see the retentions for both in the wealth management business and the asset management business. Second carry income in PPD it is. Mentioned it is 6 basis points. On what basis it has been calculated because my number is little different from the number which is reported in the data book. That’s it.
From myself
Karan Bhagat
I what was the first question?
Siddharth
Where do you see the retention setting?
Unidentified Participant
Retention? Yeah
Karan Bhagat
So retention will be similar. I don’t see any, any dramatic change in retentions I don’t think so there’s any industry wide change in from a retentions perspective I think on the alternate side we continue to see approximately a 70, 75 basis points retention X of X of carry we see ourselves booking approximately 15 to 20 basis points of carry and potentially the listed side of the business will continue between the 55 to 60 basis points potential that’s where it may go down to 50. So I think broadly depending on the mix between the.
Between the alternates and the. On the. And the listed side will be Approximately at the 73 to 75 basis points kind of retention and wealth continues in a similar, similar kind of orbit. So really from a pure retention perspective on the ARR AUM don’t see much change at all on the TBR side. Obviously it’s not going to be linked to. Linked to the AUM exactly. It’s going to be linked to some of the parameters I spoke on to spoke about earlier on the six basis points. I’ll just request either Anshan or Sanjay to come in.
Anshuman Maheshwary
Six basis points refers to the. Sorry, the six basis points refers to the incremental carry that has come in and. And that has got recognized in this quarter itself. There is a, you know we shared earlier as well we have a carry accrual policy, a relatively conservative carry accrual policy and this is just referring to the incremental carry that’s come in on a normalized basis. Therefore we expect the retentions to go back to the 75, 76 basis points level for next quarter onwards.
Unidentified Participant
Thank you sir. That’s it.
Operator
Thank you. Next in line we have Nitesh Jain.
Nitesh Jain
Hi sir, one question is on retention. So if I look at retention managed account. So we have the retention has gone. Up quite a bit. So is it because of carry that we have got in that segment?
Karan Bhagat
Yeah a little bit because of carry 3 to 4 basis points but otherwise it’s broadly in the region of. Sorry one second, let me.
Nitesh Jain
So it has gone up 80 basis points. Yeah,
Karan Bhagat
Yeah. No, no. So three to four basis points is naturally, the rest is largely on account of carry.
Nitesh Jain
Okay. And, and carry B account on a accrual basis each quarter or is it one of the quarter? Because I think last.
Karan Bhagat
No, so broadly the way we’ve been accounting for carry, we’ve kind of described it in a, in a note earlier but broadly speaking we’ve kind of do it in a fairly cons basis. So two or three things we kind of take into account. Number one, carry for the fund should have kind of crossed the hurdle more or less for the entire life of the fund. Okay. So effectively the chance or the probability of the carry getting reversed is next to negligible because if it’s a six year fund, it should have crossed the CTAL for the entire, entire time period.
And secondly, the fund should be 18 months, 18 months away from maturity. So I think these are the two, two things which broadly follow from a recognition of carry perspective
Nitesh Jain
And, and from. A timing perspective in, in, in any quarter where we reach this eligibility then we recognize carry because I think last.
Karan Bhagat
Yes, yes. So right now, for example, I think we’ve got carry recognized broadly only in two or three schemes. Right now. Yeah.
Nitesh Jain
Secondly in the net flow, I’ve seen pretty strong net flow in non discretionary pml. I think we have been highlighting in the past that we try to move these, these clients to discretionary pms, but that is not playing out. So what is inhibiting that and how do you see that?
Karan Bhagat
Yeah, I think discretionary PMS could improve for sure. I think that’s, that’s, but, but let’s, let’s kind of. Yeah. Take your, take it one step back. I think discretionary PMS or what’s called kind of net owned funds across the globe, hope it’s the last. It’s the toughest, toughest kind of franchise to build and it’s, it’s kind of represents the maximum trust the client can have with you because he’s kind of giving you full freedom on a multiple, multiple multi asset class basis. Okay. To manage his money and kind of just do a review with him once in a quarter.
So I think it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s a, it’s a slightly tougher mandate to build. Do we believe in it? The answer is 110%. Eventually it’s going to be one of the most, most important kind of platforms to build. I think if I look across the globe, whether it’s in Europe or in asia and the U.S. It started out very slowly, but fast forward to maybe five years from the time it started out. Today It’s a good 20, 25% of every large private bank’s portfolio. So I, I would expect it to keep growing. I think performance has been good.
Obviously the ability to make a difference in performance is not as sharp as your, you have on the alternate side side, because discretionary PMS by definition is more or less 100% liquid liquid portfolio. But I think we, we, we’ve made, we’ve differentiated ourselves a lot by, by kind of diversifying, having the right quantum in reads in with commodities and so on and so forth. So I think it’s just a question of time. I think every client will end up allocating a portion to the discretionary PMS side.
But if there is one number which I would like to improve over the next 12, 24 months would be the discretionary PMS number.
Nitesh Jain
Sure. Thank you. That’s it from my side. Thank you.
Karan Bhagat
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. As a reminder, in case you wish to ask any questions, kindly click on the raise hand icon. Next in line, we have Abhijit Sakare. Abhijit, kindly unmute and ask your question.
Abhijit Sakare
Hey. Hi. Good evening. Yeah, yeah, My first question was that, you know, over the last one year there’s been a lot of discussion with respect to talent, right? So when I look at things, you’re like a large incumbent when it comes to the, the wealth business, right, which is considered to be, you know, slightly stickier, high quality, and the way the new businesses are getting built up, like equities or investment banking, right there we are like a challenger, right, in terms of trying to acquire new talent.
I mean, so how do you kind of look at the current, like, phase of the industry with respect to, you know, being more aggressive or conservative between the two businesses in terms of, you know, protecting existing talent on wealth as well as kind of being more aggressive to chase talent to build the newer businesses.
Karan Bhagat
I think both, both are separate and great questions. I think from protecting existing talent perspective, I think it’s a combination of three or four things. Like, like we’ve always maintained, number one. I think obviously there’s a certain culture to every, to every organization. And you know, from, from our perspective, we are 24, seven focused on, focused on managing money for clients. So I think just, just the, the ability to give comfort to our, to our relationship managers and to our team leaders and to our, to our heads of businesses that, you know, not only what they are promising to their clients.
But, but the ability to keep the client money safe and deliver the right objective and outcome and we are fully committed to it. Important. Second, obviously they should have the ability to be, you know, kind of armed with the right set of products and platform to be able to do, go out and do business. Once these two things happen, there should be alignment of interest. And I think all our employees understand extremely well that there are three, three stakeholders in every business. There’s a investor, shareholder, there’s a management and there’s a client.
And ultimately, you know, economics have to be kind of split in the right, in a right rational manner between the three stakeholders. And I think as long as we can kind of continue to do that and explain that to our existing, existing talent, I think most of them continue to kind of study, study the ship and kind of ride the ship along with us in terms of new talent. We are unlikely to be crazy aggressive. We neither, we neither kind of, we typically would take our time time. I, I think even on the banking side, I think in total we’ve kind of given out two offers as we speak over the last three to four months.
Obviously we’ve ended up meeting a lot of people and we’ll continue to meet a lot of people. We will be selective. We will focus on building out the, the top seven, eight or people, top seven, eight people in, in, in banking. And we really built teams around them. It’s not going to be, it’s not going to be a, a quick, quick, quick, quick hiring process. And if you honestly see our business model also, you know, banking is really not even set out for a, for, for, for a large revenue build out over the next 12 odd months.
From a BNK acquisition perspective, we really see the first fruits of our labor play out in the next 12 months on the equity side and the year after that potentially on the banking side. So we’re going to take some time to hire banking. I think we would, we would take anywhere from zero to six months to kind of get our, get our six to eight business heads in from a compensation philosophy for these six or eight people is going to be very much aligned the way we build our, our wealth business. So it is going to be a compensation or it’s going to be a, it’s, it’s going to be a combination of, it’s going to be a composition, it’s going to be a combination of empowerment.
That’s number one. I think that’s, that’s most important for people. And number two, obviously kind of ensuring that there is alignment of interest and culture. And number three along with that, ensuring that you know, as business results get delivered there is enough alignment of interest from a wealth creation perspective. And I think that that’s, that’s really the philosophy we’ve followed whether we’ve, whether we build out the wealth business or even the More recently in 1718 the asset management business.
So I think we continue with the same philosophy. We are unlikely to kind of change our, change our compensation paradigm to much.
Abhijit Sakare
Got it. Thanks for the detail response. Kan. There’s just one more question on, on like when we think about next, next year’s financials,
Karan Bhagat
Right
Abhijit Sakare
Like you mentioned, uh, the, the growth on the er aum. Right uh still seems on track to be you know, between let’s say 20 to 30% uh based on uh, how the markets do uh TBR. I’m not sure how we should think about growth on current year’s base but definitely there’s like lot of operating leverage like you hinted. Does all of this sort of you know, basically hint at or imply like a fairly substantial like an earnings uplift as you see things today?
Karan Bhagat
It’s really tough. But I’ll try to answer it in the best way possible. I think to be honest, I’ll just go back to March, April 25th. Right. So around. About, about nine months from back from today. Because these things happen in sports and you know they’re not they and, and they’re not really as, as, as, as as linear as we would want it. But I would, I would, I would like to believe April 25th and if I look forward three years from April 25th to April 28th, you know, I would want to come back to my own of 20 to 24% AUM growth, 16 to 18 growth of, of of revenues and 22 to 24 growth in, in profits.
So if I just look at my thousand crore, thousand crore profit number of April 25th would be disappointed if you can’t be in that zip code of you know, give or take 1800 crores to 2100 crores of profit after tax in, in three years from there. So effectively 25, 26, 2627 and 2728. So I think, I think that’s, that’s really the way I would look at it. Obviously it needs a lot of things to, to fall in place. But honestly if you ask me as a, as a management we really striving for a 22 to 24% AUM growth, 16 to 18% revenue growth and therefore a corresponding 20 to 24% profit growth there.
Operator
Thank you. Super helpful as always.
Karan Bhagat
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Next in line we have Dipanjan Ghosh.
Karan Bhagat
Hi.
Dipanjan Ghosh
So just few questions from my side. You know, Karan, just taking cues from the last question and you know, and you know, maybe I’ve asked this question a few times in terms of the carry profile. Now obviously we don’t have significant visibility on the funds that are about to exit. Not now but let’s say FY27, 28. So when you give this guidance of let’s say or expectation of let’s say 1800-20, 100 crore of expected profit after tax depending on market conditions and multiple other things, what sort of sensitivity to carry does this number really holds?
And if you can give some clarity on at least for the next few quarters, how should one think? Because you’re significantly above your stated guidance at least for now. The second question is on the flow side. Obviously the flows have been quite strong during the quarter. But if I just look at the wealth flows, you know, obviously you have onboarded a few new teams over the last six, seven months and when some of the people exited from the firm, we saw outflows. So can you give some color on, you know, the quantum of flows that some of these new teams onboarded now or maybe in the last two years would be bringing in versus the existing ones.
And just one factual question in terms of the product pipeline on AMC.
Karan Bhagat
No. So I think broadly 20 to 25 basis points is the broad carry assumption we work with. Historically we used to work with 10 to 15 basis points. I think over the last couple of years we made it 15 to 20. I think it’s fair to say that now we are kind of factoring in 20 to 25 basis points because we’ve launched a lot of our schemes over the last two and a half, three years and sorry,
Sanjay Wadhwa
2025 for all.
Karan Bhagat
Yeah. So 2025 basis points of the 50,000 cr number is effectively what we are kind of building in. So I think we, we expect, you know, and, and just given the way we are accounting for carry on a fairly conservative basis, I think there will be, you know, more or less a symmetrical number of 25 to 40 crores of carry a quarter. Having said that, there obviously can be events and there can be listings and so on and so forth where there’s a sudden and if you have a concentrated position in that stock, you know that that can lead to a little bit of an uptick in carry.
But typically if you see 25 to 40 crores a quarter is broadly the assumption and I would, I would say a healthy number to assume for us would be 25 basis points of our all day. So for all tum Today’s around about 50,000 crores. 125 crores of carry is par for the course. We have around about 75 odd basis points of management fee. So if you add the two approximately 100, you know 95 to 100 basis points of retention on alts is pretty much the right way to look at it. And similarly on the listed side we would have around about 60 odd basis points.
So both put together on a blended basis, 60 and 100 would give us around about 80 odd odd basis points. That’s the way I would broadly look at the, look at the, look at the numbers. Second in terms of flows I think new teams have just about come in. You know they’ve taken, they’ve mostly most of them have joined over the last 45 days. A large team joined a week back. So I think in terms of flows right now the new teams have just started coming in so I don’t think so it’s a massive, massive contribution from new team see yet but hopefully we’ll kind of step in over the next three to nine months.
Obviously we’ve, we’ve got a large, large amount of clients, a large team already there which is kind of firing. But if I look at both, if I look at both our markets, north or north and south, I think north this quarter is actually marginally, marginally positive in terms of flows. South is significantly positive. So overall I think you know both, both north and south or Delhi and Bangalore rather not whole of north and south which were kind of maybe a little, a little negative effectively become positive.
But I think you know we will, we will get back a lot more market share in the next couple of quarters in these, in both these locations. Yeah. And lastly on the product pipeline I think you know, no specific one product to talk about as such but we’ve got something on the private side we’ve got something on the, on the, on the, on the, on the, on the mutual fund SIF side we’ve got something happening on the, on the real asset side we’ve also got a, a product happening on the, on the REIT side. So we’ve got, we’ve got four or five things happening through the quarter.
Obviously uh, uh, obviously a lot of uh, a lot of those uh continue to uh, continue to attract a lot of interest. We’ve also launched a couple of very interesting funds through the gifts. So overall I think a fairly healthy product pipeline and you know there’s no, not, not, not something like one single big bank but all of these things kind of, there are multiple asset classes and multiple formats so they all kind of add up in, in in their own way.
Dipanjan Ghosh
Got it Karan. And thanks for the answers and all the best.
Karan Bhagat
Thank you. Thanks.
Operator
Thank you. Next in line we have Lalit Dio. Lalit, kindly unmute and ask you a question.
Lalit Deo
Yeah, yeah. Hi Sir Bob. Good afternoon. So, just two questions. So firstly on the ubs. So last quarter we highlighted that their products will start getting referred on both the platforms. So where are we in that journey? And could you also like, could you also comment on the unit economics over there? That was the first and second was on the stuff applications. So in the Ultra HNI business we mentioned that we have the tired new team. So what would be the number RM numbers over there and how should we look at for the next year?
Karan Bhagat
So on the UBS side, you know, I think as Anshuma mentioned, we just signed the collaboration agreement three weeks back. So I think from a real business business perspective, I think it starts from two, three weeks from today. But in all honesty, from a practical onboarding perspective, because for our products to get onboarded on the UBS platform itself is a massive due diligence exercise. We are launching one of the UBS products on our platform which I think takes approximately, I think six to eight weeks from today from a regulatory approval perspective.
So I think we will see actual numbers kind of translating from April May onwards. I think potentially April onwards from a unit economics perspective it’s absolutely on a, on a, on a market, on a market basis. So pretty much where we are a manufacturer, we earn like a manufacturer. And UBS also is a distributor, where we are, where we are a distributor and UBS is a manufacturer, it works vice versa. And obviously, you know, on the client referral side in the first year the economics is, is, is, is more biased towards the introducer and as, as time goes by it becomes more biased towards the person who’s, who’s managing the account.
So that’s, that’s as far as UBS goes. As far as the new. What are the second question? Sorry?
Anshuman Maheshwary
Yeah,
Karan Bhagat
The rns on the ultra high network segment have grown to run about 190, 191 odd relationship managers plus a few teams will get added over the next three to six months where the offers have kind of already been given. So it’s grown from around about 155, 160 to around about 191. I think our previous peak was around about 170, 175. We lost around about 1520 people, maybe 22, 23 people in both the places put together which is kind of got added back. Plus we’ve added maybe another 1518 people so around about 190 bankers, 191 bankers.
Going back to my old numbers, I think broadly would like to see a number around the 300, 350 mark over the next three, four years. So I think we need to add on about 40 to 50 good talented bankers every year.
Operator
Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. Next in line we have Siddharth. Siddharth, kindly unmute and ask your question.
Siddharth
Hi. Congratulations on a great set of numbers. Couple of questions. First, you know you mentioned about discretionary the PMS really being sort of a tough one. Right. But on that one thing that I observed was there’s a sharp retention drop in Q3 compared to the 40 odd 40 to 45 basis points trend that we’ve been seeing over the last few quarters. So just wanted to understand if that was more a particular mandate. Are you, are you seeing some competitive intensity increase? That that’s question number one.
And similarly on the mutual fund side also, if we look at it right in terms of the retention of distribution assets on mutual funds, that’s also slightly sloping down and that could be a function of just asset allocation between equity and debt. So just to want wanted to understand how we should think of that retention over the next four quarters or so given that asset allocation will continue. So that was on the retention side and second was in, in terms of capital allocation right now with, with UBS warrants etc also coming in at one point in time on the capital front, how should, how should we think through your capital allocation over say the next 18 months?
Months.
Karan Bhagat
Thanks. Also I think from I’ll start with the, with the questions on the capital allocation and then I’ll move ahead on the, on the, on the retention portions. So I think broadly speaking on the on the capital allocation perspective, nothing really big in terms of change. I think we continue to use our capital for two things. I think for the alternates business as well as for the abroad nbfc, I, I see both continuing to grow actually. So I think unless and until we get some real acquisition opportunity, none of it which we see now, I think most of our capital will kind of go back into, into growing our NBFC book as well as kind of ensuring that we are able to deploy a little bit more capital into our own, into our own alternates.
From a dividend perspective obviously we continue to remain 45 to 70% of our profits around outside of, outside of our alts business and our NBSC business being declared as dividends. I think the, the, the, the aspiration obviously on a, on a, on a capital allocation basis is with the increase in profitability to move towards the mid-20s in terms of ROE on a, on an intangible basis and including the, including the, including the goodwill assets and the other assets try to move towards the late teen numbers.
From an ROE perspective, from, from a retention perspective on the, on the, on the AUM side I think no real change. I think we had some AUM and a single mandate which was kind of transferred from UBS which was small, which was, which had a small impact but otherwise one of the larger, larger impacts had a larger EUM had a 5 basis points reduction so not really anything which is, which is kind of not repetitive. So I think the discretionary retention remains around the 45, 50 basis points outside of these two.
The non discretionary will continue between the 28 to 35 basis points. So no big change there. The discretionary mandate, honestly it’s not a function of retention. I think it’s just a function of a little bit more acceptance. And as acceptance kind of builds out I see that we don’t see really any pressure on the discretionary mandates from a retention perspective. It’s just that it’s a multi asset class tool so it needs acceptance from the client as well as the relationship manager. And from a relationship manager perspective, obviously he needs to see some value addition over and above the core portfolio he’s managing on zone.
Siddharth
Got it. That’s useful. Thanks. And on the HNI prime, just wanted to understand if we, you know, you’ve been giving some very good color in terms of how each of these businesses have progressed. Right. And, and there the investments have stabilized for the last two quarters at 18 crores but so has the top line. Right. And therefore, you know, is this, are you, are you envisaging a little. Not. A delay really but you know, a longer time than what you had projected in terms of that HNI revenue growth sort of ticking upwards or how should we think of that?
Karan Bhagat
I wouldn’t still measure the H and M business from a pure revenue perspective that quickly because I think the more important number there would be net flows and AUM growth as well as the relationship and because the revenues really kind of since it’s fully trail based and is running on 110 basis points retention. The revenue numbers really don’t. They need to accumulate over a period of time for it to really increase. So for example, a 2,400 crore average AUM of Q3 versus a 2,700 crore average AUM of Q4 will not really kind of show up in revenue numbers numbers but it will have, it will have an element of 200 crores of mark to market growth and potentially a 4,500crore element of net new flows which on an average becomes 200250 crores.
So overall happy with the 450 crore opening AUM number going to 3000 crores, could it be faster? The answer is yes, but we just don’t want to kind of quickly add 250 relationship managers across the country. We want to be sure of, of what, what parts of the client’s wallet share are we adding, adding value to and then build it out. So I think, I think we are at a place where we are fairly confident and we are going to, you know, pretty much break even in three to six months. Post that, you’ll see us expanding in a slightly more disproportionate way.
Siddharth
Glad to see the clarity in how this is playing out. Thank you very much and all the best.
Karan Bhagat
Thank you.
Operator
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And this brings us to the end of our earnings call. Thank you for joining us. Have a nice evening. Thank you. Thank you everybody for joining in. Happy New Year again. Thank you.